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Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small

Clan ER Small laser
Heavy Small
Improved Heavy Small
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Author Topic: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small  (Read 1094 times)

grimlock1

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Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« on: 01 June 2020, 09:03:05 »
I was looking at the stats and the cER Small laser is so dang close to the Heavy Small that I question if the Heavy is worth it.  I threw the iHeavy into the poll because why not.

The heavy gains a 20% increase in damage, but half the reach, 50% more heat, and the -1 TH, when compared to the ER small.  At this end of the spectrum a 50% heat increase is basically bupkis, unless you are doing something like a Ti Ts'ang with a brace of the little beggars. And in this case a 20% damage boost is only 1 point.

So is that extra point of damage worth taking half as many shots and the 10% targeting debuff?
Or is that extra point worth taking half as many shots and the risk of an internal explosion?
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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #1 on: 01 June 2020, 10:53:57 »
The two are designed for different things IMO . . .

Heavy Smalls-
Fire Moth H, Phantom H, or other similar mechs all share common traits . . . fast, small and with stacked batteries of SHL with a TC.  In fact you can get 10 SHL covered by a single TC which negates that -1 TH.  They are also designed as backstabbers or 'vultures' and when not involved in attacks are useful for what they can do as part of a force.  Besides picking off weakened enemy mechs, they can force a player who has a healthy respect for their abilities to remain grouped together or keep BA in tight.  As a Wolf campaign player or in a 1-off game, I would gladly trade the 500-ish  BV of a Fire Moth H for a Lyran Thunderhawk or Salamander.

To me Heavy Lasers have always been a weapon designed for Clan vs IS fights rather than something Clans use against each other.

ER Smalls-
Pouncer C, Phantom C, Mist Lynx E, Locust IIC, and mechs like this use ER Small batteries something like the Nova though usually with a bigger ranged weapon.  Designed to supplement the larger weapon they do not require a weakened target or a backshot- it certainly does not hurt though!  ER Smalls seem to have fallen out of favor with the invention of the LMG & AP Gauss which leave the heat burden for the bigger weapons.

A few folks on the receiving end of a Phantom H in my table top group have come to ask if its a Phantom when I put down a mini that looks close.  Getting behind someone and carving off half a torso tends to do that though . . .
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massey

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #2 on: 01 June 2020, 11:08:09 »
In fact you can get 10 SHL

It took me a depressingly long time to figure out this meant "Small Heavy Laser".  I went through several different possibilities first.

Single Heat Sinks?  No wait, that last letter is an "L".
Single Hot Link?
Sausage Hot Link?  (obviously it's breakfast time)

Only then did I get to small heavy laser.

--

Personally, I prefer the ER Small in almost every situation.  The Heavy Small is kinda cool, but I don't think that one extra point of damage is going to make that much difference.

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #3 on: 01 June 2020, 11:23:54 »
It does . . . consider the number of IS XL mechs that have 6 points of armor on a side torso, 1 hit gives you a crit chance on that XL, weapons, or ammo in that location.  Eight SHL for the Fire Moth H against a 4/6 heavy?  So . . . 3 gun, +1 for HL, -1 for TC, +2 for MM, +2 for TMM which means a 7 . . . with 8 SHL, its a very good chance 1 is going to hit a rear side torso.

I do not send the Fire Moth (or Phantom H) after a Griffin or Wolverine.  I send it after a Archer, Catapult, Rifleman (oh yeah, most are great targets even with flips), Jagermechs or any of the other fire support- especially if like the Rifleman or Jagers, they sacrifice a bit of armor to mount those bigger long range guns.
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Sartris

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #4 on: 01 June 2020, 12:03:28 »
I’ll be intentionally difficult and go off the board with a pair of er micro lasers

GreekFire

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #5 on: 01 June 2020, 12:10:54 »
Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and kinda echo what Colt said. In a campaign game, the ER Small better in almost every way, so that's a bit of a no brainer. But in a BV balanced game, the Heavy Small Laser costs less than half the BV cost of an ER Small, making it a cheaper and more attractive choice on 'Mechs that are quick enough to reliably use them, and can boat enough to make them a credible threat.

I’ll be intentionally difficult and go off the board with a pair of er micro lasers
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #6 on: 01 June 2020, 12:27:18 »
It is not even a game. Clans ER Small Laser is a pure winner and the others are not have a meaningful advantage to cling to the same level. For medium lasers, (Improved) Heavy Medium Laser is a very good weapon actually and it is a good replacement of normal Medium Laser. But Heavy Small Lasers are not a reasonable choice and it is simply overshadowed by Clans ER Small Laser.

If you want to resonably compare with Heavy Small Lasers, the counterpart should be Inner Sphere ER Small Laser, NOT Clans one.

grimlock1

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #7 on: 01 June 2020, 13:02:50 »
The two are designed for different things IMO . . .

Heavy Smalls-
Fire Moth H, Phantom H, or other similar mechs all share common traits . . . fast, small and with stacked batteries of SHL with a TC.  In fact you can get 10 SHL covered by a single TC which negates that -1 TH.  They are also designed as backstabbers or 'vultures' and when not involved in attacks are useful for what they can do as part of a force.  Besides picking off weakened enemy mechs, they can force a player who has a healthy respect for their abilities to remain grouped together or keep BA in tight.  As a Wolf campaign player or in a 1-off game, I would gladly trade the 500-ish  BV of a Fire Moth H for a Lyran Thunderhawk or Salamander.

To me Heavy Lasers have always been a weapon designed for Clan vs IS fights rather than something Clans use against each other.

ER Smalls-
Pouncer C, Phantom C, Mist Lynx E, Locust IIC, and mechs like this use ER Small batteries something like the Nova though usually with a bigger ranged weapon.  Designed to supplement the larger weapon they do not require a weakened target or a backshot- it certainly does not hurt though!  ER Smalls seem to have fallen out of favor with the invention of the LMG & AP Gauss which leave the heat burden for the bigger weapons.

A few folks on the receiving end of a Phantom H in my table top group have come to ask if its a Phantom when I put down a mini that looks close.  Getting behind someone and carving off half a torso tends to do that though . . .
10 x 6 damage verses 10 x 5 damage, okay now we are talking enough to make a difference. I'm not denying batteries of heavy small can mess someone up.  Lets look at the Firemoth H, 9 heavy smalls and a TC.  Swap for 11 ER smalls and no TC. You will hit harder, run cooler, shoot further, and have better TH numbers.  The better range for the ER small means that it will always have more favorable THN's versus a heavy small with TC, with the exception of melee range.   
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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #8 on: 01 June 2020, 13:05:10 »
On top of all its other advantages,  the cERSL also reaches the medium range bracket in Alpha Strike.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #9 on: 01 June 2020, 13:40:05 »
The one point of damage works as I said- lots of units have 6 points of armor on the side rear torsos to keep 1 point of armor after a ML hit.  Seven points of damage gets that important 1 point of damage on internal structure to force a crit roll.  For the CTR, two 7 point hits will in most cases have the 2nd hit going internal on the CT.

10 x 6 damage verses 10 x 5 damage, okay now we are talking enough to make a difference. I'm not denying batteries of heavy small can mess someone up.  Lets look at the Firemoth H, 9 heavy smalls and a TC.  Swap for 11 ER smalls and no TC. You will hit harder, run cooler, shoot further, and have better TH numbers.  The better range for the ER small means that it will always have more favorable THN's versus a heavy small with TC, with the exception of melee range.   

And pays for it in BV- closest comparison is the Phantom C and Phantom H- the Phantom has 2 less smalls b/c of MPL vs ERML.  Both have a TC and flamer . . . and the Phantom C has 400 BV more, and the BV of the H would be even lower if it was a ERML + 2 more SHL due to the heat requirement.

ER Small's range does not matter because if you are going to start talking about range vs damage, you drop the ERSL and use the ERML.  Like I said, there is a reason the later Omnis and Std Clan mechs are mounting LMGs and AP Gauss instead of ER Smalls since the range is the same or better for no heat burden.
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Greatclub

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #10 on: 01 June 2020, 14:17:30 »
Dasher H - 779 BV
Dasher H w/ iHSL - 914 BV
Dasher H w/ ERSL - 1319 BV

In BV matched games the small heavy has a place. Campaign games yank them and replace seems the better option to me; +1 to hit isn't justified by +1 damage, let alone the range.

Wolf72

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #11 on: 01 June 2020, 15:02:24 »
I’ll be intentionally difficult and go off the board with a pair of er micro lasers

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #13 on: 01 June 2020, 16:38:08 »
The one point of damage works as I said- lots of units have 6 points of armor on the side rear torsos to keep 1 point of armor after a ML hit.  Seven points of damage gets that important 1 point of damage on internal structure to force a crit roll.  For the CTR, two 7 point hits will in most cases have the 2nd hit going internal on the CT.

And pays for it in BV- closest comparison is the Phantom C and Phantom H- the Phantom has 2 less smalls b/c of MPL vs ERML.  Both have a TC and flamer . . . and the Phantom C has 400 BV more, and the BV of the H would be even lower if it was a ERML + 2 more SHL due to the heat requirement.

ER Small's range does not matter because if you are going to start talking about range vs damage, you drop the ERSL and use the ERML.  Like I said, there is a reason the later Omnis and Std Clan mechs are mounting LMGs and AP Gauss instead of ER Smalls since the range is the same or better for no heat burden.

Later Clan Mechs are carrying LMGs and APGRs because of new toy syndrome. An ERSL is a better option than both outside of killing infantry.

Small lasers serve either to fill that last half ton or as 
a battery. Because of this the comparison with the Medium Laser isn't really appropriate.

If you have chosen to go with a small laser battery you have chosen to make use of the superior weight to damage ratio and use speed to counter the range limitations.

That said range still matters. It is much easier to put a 6 hex weapon on target than a 3 hex weapon. To get a short range shot with a SHL puts you in punching range. Basically you can only engage on those turns when you win initiative. Also you can't stack two or three back stabbed behind a Mech. When you are in a Firemoth facing immobilization every turn at ranges where you don't get any to-hit protection this matters.

Colt Ward

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #14 on: 01 June 2020, 17:11:09 »
Later Clan Mechs are carrying LMGs and APGRs because of new toy syndrome. An ERSL is a better option than both outside of killing infantry.
*snip*

I mostly agree, but I did include 'to avoid additional heat burden' for a few instances where it is a legitimate design choice.
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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #15 on: 01 June 2020, 17:36:18 »
The one point of damage works as I said- lots of units have 6 points of armor on the side rear torsos to keep 1 point of armor after a ML hit.  Seven points of damage gets that important 1 point of damage on internal structure to force a crit roll.  For the CTR, two 7 point hits will in most cases have the 2nd hit going internal on the CT.

And pays for it in BV- closest comparison is the Phantom C and Phantom H- the Phantom has 2 less smalls b/c of MPL vs ERML.  Both have a TC and flamer . . . and the Phantom C has 400 BV more, and the BV of the H would be even lower if it was a ERML + 2 more SHL due to the heat requirement.

ER Small's range does not matter because if you are going to start talking about range vs damage, you drop the ERSL and use the ERML.  Like I said, there is a reason the later Omnis and Std Clan mechs are mounting LMGs and AP Gauss instead of ER Smalls since the range is the same or better for no heat burden.

Trouble with 6 armor is you are going to need a second hit to the same location to damage internal structure even with a SHL.

With that in mind the extra reach seems far more useful, especially without the penalty to hit.  At least for mechs and vehicles.

Now on Battlearmor which work best in close anyway that does change the equation a bit.

ASFs and other such units, then it starts being a consideration what your end goal is.

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #16 on: 01 June 2020, 20:16:33 »
Trouble with 6 armor is you are going to need a second hit to the same location to damage internal structure even with a SHL.

With that in mind the extra reach seems far more useful, especially without the penalty to hit.  At least for mechs and vehicles.

Now on Battlearmor which work best in close anyway that does change the equation a bit.

ASFs and other such units, then it starts being a consideration what your end goal is.
On BA it gets even worse for the BA, IMO.  Going Heavy over ER w.r.t. small lasers costs 1 extra crit and 150kg, which is quite a large hit (you can almost get an extra AP Gauss Rifle if you keep the ER Small instead, and you can certainly get a MG).

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #17 on: 01 June 2020, 20:20:19 »
Sorry, I was mixing some stats- thinking of the Med's heat instead of Small's damage while at work.  I still think it is worth it- the Clans are about winning with balls, so its a 'bigger' win to get into 'contact' range and blow someone's side off than it is to hang out a bit further away.  To me its sort of like the Hunchback IIC- I am going to win by damage output rather than damage avoidance.

I do think it was a shame we never got a Small Heavy Laser Elemental variant.  Also, Elementals do not get ER Small IIRC but rather ER Micro- really a improved heavy would have been best.  The only suit with a Small Heavy I can think of is the Surat.
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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #18 on: 01 June 2020, 22:05:07 »
I kind of feel like heavy lasers should have been an inner sphere weapon system. 

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #19 on: 01 June 2020, 23:06:07 »
I kind of feel like heavy lasers should have been an inner sphere weapon system.
Seconded.

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #20 on: 02 June 2020, 00:50:21 »
With improved heavy lasers as Clan tech?
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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #21 on: 02 June 2020, 01:48:04 »
With improved heavy lasers as Clan tech?
Not bad. Then Clans can save the extra expense of adding Targeting Computer by add a 0.5 ton CASE II.

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #22 on: 02 June 2020, 08:19:44 »
Heavy small lasers also seem to be fairly decent at hunting battle armor. There are better weapons of course, but that's one place where they seem to be adequate.

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #23 on: 02 June 2020, 11:37:30 »
If we are ignoring BV then the er small is the best option because of how close the damage is to the heavies, but has greater range. If we are talking BV regulated games, as someone has posted above, the difference between the small heavy carrying Firemoth is significantly cheaper then the version carrying er smalls.

I don't mess with the rpg aspect of the game, which means getting the most out of my BV is my goal. If I am using a firemoth H then getting close enough to stab away with the heavy smalls isn't much more of an issue then getting into range with an er small. I could bring 2 Firemoth H's for the price of one armed with er smalls. If i can get either into an effective range then its not really a question of which variant I should take.

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #24 on: 02 June 2020, 23:56:06 »
With improved heavy lasers as Clan tech?

Sure though if we did that they probably should not explode at that point since traditionally clan equipment should be for sure better and not debatably a side grade.

grimlock1

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #25 on: 03 June 2020, 12:00:20 »
Sure though if we did that they probably should not explode at that point since traditionally clan equipment should be for sure better and not debatably a side grade.
I kinda like how we have started to see stuff where the Clan version is not instantly better.  Clan RACs shoot farther, but are not as compact.  Clan Plasma Cannons are pretty much better than IS Plasma Rifles in every way, but Plasma Rifles deal standard damage.  It's more of an RPG/campaign element but from a logistical perspective, MML's are more appealing than ATM's.   
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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #26 on: 03 June 2020, 18:13:45 »
I've used the Phantom C and the Phantom H, and those are the closest thing to a straight-up swap between HSLs and ERSLs in a canon mech.

There's no comparison, the Phantom C punches a lot harder, disproportionate to its BV difference.
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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #27 on: 03 June 2020, 19:22:41 »
For ease of reference (especially for those us having Sarna issues at the moment), which is which?

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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #28 on: 03 June 2020, 20:20:12 »
About half the time 'H' is the heavy laser version.

Thing is, the C also has two extra smalls since it has the ERML instead of the MPL.  The question is what are you using it on- mediums or heavies/assaults?  Dueling or a free for all?
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Re: Clan ER small v Heavy Small v Improved Heavy Small
« Reply #29 on: 03 June 2020, 20:30:13 »
Star-on-star fights that started with duels and devolved into free-for-alls both times.  The extra range of the ER Smalls meant that I had so many more options when it came to where I positioned myself for an attack, which meant that I had a much easier time exploiting blind spots.
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