Register Register

Author Topic: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy  (Read 927 times)

Maingunnery

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5194
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« on: 01 June 2020, 19:32:56 »
I wanted to objectively determine the best way to reach all parts of the Milky Way galaxy using BT technology (think long-term reliability).

For this I selected two criteria: cost per person and tonnage per person. Keeping the former low is important to get such an enterprise off the ground, while the latter reduces the industrial burden on the decedents for making additional additional ships (to house population growth and other reasons).

To calculate the best setup I compared various combinations (DS, JS & WS) with standardized stats (same armor type, SI value, ratio of cargo/quarters, etc). [I had also considered Space Stations with KF booms as an option, but the answer to my rules question makes it clear that they aren't a viable option for this scenario.]

The results clearly point out some facts, bigger is always better and that the DropShips cost multiplier is a killer.

Cost-wise a JumpShip fully loaded with ten 100k DropShip scores only average on the list of combinations, while 2.5MT WarShip with no DropShips gives the best cost per person. This can be demonstrated using mostly canon ships. Here I am assuming that half of the cargo (including all the yard stuff and escape pods) will be used for additional steerage quarters. So a Monolith & 9 Behemoths vs a stripped Newgrande & 4 Behemoths.
Monolith (habitat)+9B: 68257P 26.5B 1330kt = 388,239 CBill/P  & 19.49 Ton/P
NewGrange (habitat)+4B: 119709P 29.71B 2700kt = 248,185 Cbill/P  &  22.55 Ton/P

Now compare those to somewhat optimized custom designs to how far it can be improved.
Cluster JS & 10 Island DS: 88839P 30.07B 1455kt =  338,477 CBill/P  & 16.38 Ton/P
Sunflower ColonyShip* (0 DS): 111115P 16.12B 2500kt = 145,074 Cbill/P  &  22.50 Ton/P

Canon ships are pretty decent, but custom designs can really get some real gains, however the existing facts don't change. Using a JumpShip gives a noticeable mass advantage, however using a compact-core ship (WS) cuts the costs down by more than half. This does suggest to me that the 'Single WS' set-up is likely the best technical solution, but we all know that most factions will not be able to build such large ships. But personally I can see something like it being commissioned by DOME (Department of Mega Engineering, from the first Star League).


ps. [TPTB should really look into a separate cost multiplier for non-atmospheric DropShips, so some errata please.... pretty please... ]
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

Fan XTRO: The Society

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16298
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #1 on: 01 June 2020, 19:54:05 »
Those mega-scale ships should have at least one collar each.  You can't beat the ability to land on a planet with that much mass at one time...  ^-^

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21864
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #2 on: 01 June 2020, 20:19:31 »
All parts of the Milky Way? The IS is roughly 2/3rds of the way out from the galactic core. The farthest point would be the rim on the opposite side of the core. Distance roughly 16.000 parsecs.

At 30 parsecs/week (nice round number), we get about 1,600 parsecs/year theoretical max speed. 10 years - much better than I originally thought it would be! But there's no way any ship could maintain 52 jumps/year, year after year, so the practical limit would be somewhat less.

And yes, there should be some way of having DropShips with no maneuver drives, and just attitude jets, for "spam in a can" transport ;)
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Sartris

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10878
  • CR 21 Bullshit Elemental
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #3 on: 01 June 2020, 20:31:41 »
"hey we're about a jump out of the supermassive blackhole and our drive broke down. why is everything looking like funhouse mirrors? why is your message dated Sept 5, 3553?"

UnLimiTeD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2004
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #4 on: 01 June 2020, 21:23:21 »
Hmmm.
Use a Jumpship with a large repair facility and bring stations in there?
Also, I definitely recommend better quarters than steerage. Better recycling, and you'll have sane crew. Useful at times.
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16298
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #5 on: 02 June 2020, 03:42:47 »
Worktroll: parsecs and light-years are not the same thing... One parsec is a bit over 3 light years.

Maingunnery

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5194
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #6 on: 02 June 2020, 13:53:08 »
Those mega-scale ships should have at least one collar each.  You can't beat the ability to land on a planet with that much mass at one time...  ^-^
Good idea, one collar doesn't raise the price that much, we just have to be sure it is a good DS.
Now standard/second-class quarters those inflate the price, but it is still cheaper than the best JS-DS combo.
1 DC. -> 16,92 B
2nd Class 79685 -> 17,86 B
224,133 Cbill/P
31.37 Ton/P


And yes, there should be some way of having DropShips with no maneuver drives, and just attitude jets, for "spam in a can" transport ;)
Well in MML I can reduce the thrust to 0, but that also causes the SI to be 0, reverting to an 1 mp safe thrust engine is good enough. 
But the big problem is the DropShip cost multiplier, which is x36, now if non-atmospheric DropShips had a lower multiplier of about half of that it would make a huge difference.


 
Hmmm.
Use a Jumpship with a large repair facility and bring stations in there?
You might be right, according to TO p335, that combo should work.
135,044 Cbill/P
20.3 Ton/P
But is the station online while in the repair facility?

Quote
Also, I definitely recommend better quarters than steerage. Better recycling, and you'll have sane crew. Useful at times.
OK will use those in any final design, on a related note how do kids count? Do they get their own quarters at a certain age?
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

Fan XTRO: The Society

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21864
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #7 on: 03 June 2020, 01:45:13 »
Worktroll: parsecs and light-years are not the same thing... One parsec is a bit over 3 light years.

Whoops! Elder's moment. So make it 10 parsecs/jump, near enough for government work. 30 years is certainly more ambitious, and challenging, than 10 ...
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

VhenRa

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1946
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #8 on: 03 June 2020, 02:32:34 »
Is it wrong I am seriously considering the merits of slower then light for this?

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21864
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #9 on: 03 June 2020, 02:46:34 »
Yes.

Standard jump - minimum 30 years to Farside.

STL: minimum 48,000 years to Farside. External universe time.

The closer you get to Tau Zero, the shorter internal time - but the BT universe lacks the magitech to survive travelling at such speeds. One grain of dust at .99999999999999999999999999C ... :o
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Giovanni Blasini

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4371
  • And I think it's gonna be a long, long time...
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #10 on: 03 June 2020, 04:07:48 »
That said, we know slowboat colonization is possible. Wonder how long it would take at the 0.68c of the Pathfinder probes.
"“Eternity is a long time, especially towards the end.” -- Stephen Hawking

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16298
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #11 on: 03 June 2020, 04:14:52 »
Tens of thousands of years.

Maingunnery

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5194
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #12 on: 03 June 2020, 16:20:27 »
but the BT universe lacks the magitech to survive travelling at such speeds. One grain of dust at .99999999999999999999999999C ... :o
BT armor does actually quite well against high-velocity impacts.
Anyway the true problem remains travel-speed, but thankfully BT KF-drives are quite fast.
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

Fan XTRO: The Society

worktroll

  • Ombudsman
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21864
  • 504th "Gateway" Division
    • There are Monsters in my Sky!
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #13 on: 03 June 2020, 18:56:59 »
Even BT armour isn't going to cope with specks of dust at relativistic speeds.

At 99% of lightspeed, a sand grain hits with the force of 1000 tons of TNT.

Okay, space doesn't contain that many grains of sand. But it does contain a lot of atoms. And at .99C, you're plowing a big channel. And throw in that at .99C there's a Tau factor of .14 or so, the crew will be seeing things happen 7 times faster than the leftbehinds.

No, BT armour ain't up to it.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

VhenRa

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1946
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #14 on: 03 June 2020, 20:05:09 »
That said, we know slowboat colonization is possible. Wonder how long it would take at the 0.68c of the Pathfinder probes.

Yeah, I went and actually did the math. Nowhere near close enough. Seventy-three thousand years earth time, fifty-three thousand years ship time. For a fifty thousand light year trip.

It would be doable over shortish distances though...

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16298
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #15 on: 03 June 2020, 20:07:55 »
So my tens of thousands swag was on the money...  ^-^

UnLimiTeD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2004
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #16 on: 04 June 2020, 05:36:02 »
Going somewhere just to get there is a very human thing.
Colonizing a nearby system, on the other hand, can have very practical reasons.
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

Charistoph

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 639
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #17 on: 04 June 2020, 14:25:25 »
Going somewhere just to get there is a very human thing.
Colonizing a nearby system, on the other hand, can have very practical reasons.

While it would take longer to reach across the galaxy, this would be a more reliable method of crossing it.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Maingunnery

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5194
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #18 on: 04 June 2020, 19:29:55 »
While it would take longer to reach across the galaxy, this would be a more reliable method of crossing it.
Depend on what people mean with nearby.

I am imagine the process to be more like going into a big circle around the milky way, depositing excess population into colonies wherever garden worlds are found, building up the required infrastructure before moving on. These garden worlds will in time produce their own colony ships which then travel to the local unexplored area (such as towards the edge or center) for more garden worlds. This would be a way for a single ship to make an efficient start at colonizing the entire galaxy.
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

Fan XTRO: The Society

kato

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1954
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #19 on: 05 June 2020, 07:58:17 »
All parts of the Milky Way? The IS is roughly 2/3rds of the way out from the galactic core. The farthest point would be the rim on the opposite side of the core. Distance roughly 16.000 parsecs.
The IS is located at around 26,000 light years from Sagittarius A*. The thin disk of the Milkyway has a nominal radius of around 100,000 light years, but once we include densities, if we want to set a reasonable target : Use the end of the Carina arm. That's about 75-80,000 light years from us on the other side, probably 90,000 on a reasonable flight path around the center.

At an optimized 176 hours per jump (incl. plotting) getting there takes at least 60 years. With BT technology it should be possible to move a colony of up to 30,000 people over there, more if using cryostasis.

Charistoph

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 639
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #20 on: 05 June 2020, 22:31:34 »
The IS is located at around 26,000 light years from Sagittarius A*. The thin disk of the Milkyway has a nominal radius of around 100,000 light years, but once we include densities, if we want to set a reasonable target : Use the end of the Carina arm. That's about 75-80,000 light years from us on the other side, probably 90,000 on a reasonable flight path around the center.

At an optimized 176 hours per jump (incl. plotting) getting there takes at least 60 years. With BT technology it should be possible to move a colony of up to 30,000 people over there, more if using cryostasis.

You'd also have to plot your path pretty tightly unless you want to be dealing with that fun space between the arms.  Sure, there are stars there, just like there are oasis in the Sahara.  You just have to be careful how you go about getting there.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

kato

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1954
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #21 on: 06 June 2020, 03:54:17 »
Sure, there are stars there, just like there are oasis in the Sahara.
The density of stars in the Milky Way is near-equal throughout the disk. There aren't quantifiably more stars in the arms than in the space inbetween. The spiral arms of Galaxies simply represent the places where bright B and O stars are born - short-lived stars who do not live long enough to drift out of the arms.

That said going as close as possible in a particular direction in jumps of as close as possible to 30 light years in a 2D space is not as easy as it may sound anyway. You're pretty much always dodging and weaving a path between stars within around a 45° angle either side of the planned direction.

Korzon77

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2207
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #22 on: 06 June 2020, 21:53:50 »
How expensive are space stations?  I think that space stations can keep life support while linked to a jumpship (if not, it's a common sense house rule) and they're a bit less expensive than dropships--and in terms of mobility they have the same station keeping drives as jumpships so they can move about a solar system. 

you'd probably want factory modules, as well as a population large enough to establish waypoint colonies as you went out.

In fact, such an attempt might spend extended periods of time "resting" which is when you'd set up your factories and more or less rebuild everything you'd been working on.

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16298
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #23 on: 06 June 2020, 22:12:17 »
That was asked recently up in the rules forum... the answer was definitively "no", so a house rule is your only option.

Korzon77

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2207
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #24 on: 07 June 2020, 04:57:56 »
That was asked recently up in the rules forum... the answer was definitively "no", so a house rule is your only option.

Which is, honestly, ridiculous.  The only difference between space stations and dropship is that one has a maneuver drive and the other has station keeping drives.

Maingunnery

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5194
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #25 on: 07 June 2020, 06:15:09 »
Here is the link:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=69470.0

I was hoping for them to scrap "is fully shut down, and", sadly that didn't happen.
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

Fan XTRO: The Society

UnLimiTeD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2004
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #26 on: 07 June 2020, 06:28:53 »
Which really raises the question of what exactly is happening given that a dropship can apparently still support its own crew just fine.
One would assume that the regular crew quarters should function just fine on batteries even if the reactors were off.
I mean, how is that supposed to work, everyone don a spacesuit before docking and then you turn everything off and open the doors?
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16298
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #27 on: 07 June 2020, 06:37:08 »
I think it's just inelegant game balance, really.  Consider being able to stitch a "Death Star" together out of Space Stations and a Potemkin...

Maingunnery

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5194
  • Pirates and C3 masters are on the hitlist
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #28 on: 07 June 2020, 07:23:34 »
I think it's just inelegant game balance, really.  Consider being able to stitch a "Death Star" together out of Space Stations and a Potemkin...
That is also what I am thinking, but that would still be prevented by reducing the sentence to: "While docked, the space station may not fire weapons, use sensors, or perform any special communications actions".

The shutdown part was really unnecessary.
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

Fan XTRO: The Society

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16298
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Traveling the Milky Way Galaxy
« Reply #29 on: 07 June 2020, 07:31:12 »
Perhaps they were trying to avoid people shifting all their crew quarters to the "space stations", leaving more room for weapons on the ship.  Who knows?

 

Register