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Author Topic: Mongol Doctrine  (Read 414 times)

wildkadabra

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Mongol Doctrine
« on: 01 June 2020, 19:57:36 »
What is it essentially? I understand that the Mongol Doctrine employed by the Horses is very different from the one that Malvina practices? What are the fundamental differences? What is the Mongol Doctrine employed by the Horses and the one employed by Psycho McNutnuts?

worktroll

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Re: Mongol Doctrine
« Reply #1 on: 01 June 2020, 20:14:58 »
My take: it's the reaction by Clans which clung to fundamentalist Honour principles, who kept losing because "the other side cheated!" (eg. did not play to the fundamentalists' advantages) - who then reached the point of "I'm mad as hell and I'm not taking it any more!"

So they went "over the line" and basically threw Zell out the window. The purpose of fighting is to win, and you win by application of superior force. All of a sudden, the IS could no longer exploit Clan behavioural blind spots. No bidding, no duelling, just killing.

They also took the line from the historical Mongols - you got one chance. Surrender, and you will live under our heel. Resist, and you - and your family, your city, your nation - will be exterminated to the last child.

While this started with the Hell's Horses, the bulk of the Jade Falcons embraced this enthusiastically. Many other Clan honour-based traditions dropped away - use of combined arms, physical attacks with 'Mechs, dropping WarShips on your opposition, little things like that. Malvina threw herself out in front of the curve, and many Falcons saw her winning. And "Might makes Right", quiaff? So all that pent-up frustration got harnessed by a sociopath. As they used to say oin the TV guide, "hilarity ensues ..."

And eventually, even the Hell's Horses got a bit "Whoah, dudess, doncha think you're taking this a little over the top?" and broke the bestie relationship. Doesn't mean they're not Mongol any more, just Mongol Lite ;)

Others' opinions may vary.
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Maelwys

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Re: Mongol Doctrine
« Reply #2 on: 01 June 2020, 20:34:43 »
The Horse's doctrine is explained in Era Report 3145 and is basically "use light units to conduct hit and run tactics and force opponents out of position and into the firepower of the heavy units."

Its...not really ground breaking. About the only thing that really makes it different for well, anyone is that the Horses would design a cluster around it. Instead of having a Strike Cluster that's light weight, or an assault Cluster that's mainly heavy and assault units, you would have a Horde Cluster that has some really light units and some really heavy units so it could do the tactics on its own.

Its..not really all that exciting.

And has nothing to do with what Malvina is doing.

What she's doing is mimicking the part where the Mongols went and said "Surrender or die." and used terror to get people to surrender, etc. There are a couple of wiki pages that can explain more.

But yeah. They don't really have anything to do with each other.

CJC070

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Re: Mongol Doctrine
« Reply #3 on: 01 June 2020, 20:40:25 »
According to Sarna the Hell's Horses Mongol Doctrine calls for Light Calvary Tactics.  I don't know the exact methods but it sounds like hit and run style of battle especially since Hell's Horses have all those tanks (and making it equally controversial).  The harsher methods came out when some people thought that they should go Mongol all the way.

worktroll

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Re: Mongol Doctrine
« Reply #4 on: 01 June 2020, 20:50:29 »
Consider, from a Clan/Zell point of view, this is pretty revolutionary.

Clan combat was all about "the honor of making the kill". To the extent of duelling 1-on-1 being the 'ideal combat'. Cooperating with other units - while quite Hell's Horses - was something that never quite fit. Removing the duelling imperative, and assigning units to functions other than "make the kill", went against what more traditional Clans would have seen as "right".

So you could say the Horses removed the blinkers preventing proper combined-arms operations; removing the blinkers also meant other things suddenly came into view. And Malvina jumped down the rabbit hole.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
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* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

rebs

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Re: Mongol Doctrine
« Reply #5 on: 01 June 2020, 21:04:30 »
Very educational thread you've got here, guys.  Tagging it for later after I read more about those loveable Mongols we know so well.

worktroll

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Re: Mongol Doctrine
« Reply #6 on: 01 June 2020, 21:40:41 »
I'm an old-school Falcon, from before Mongol. And I get it. Because we're the BEST! (yes, as we see it.) The most FAITHFUL! But

- The Founder chose the Wolves, who ended up having half of them become Lyran Lapdogs
- that Twycross shit. I mean, hack move!
- blasted Spheroids won't lie down and behave under our firm and righteous rulership!
- other Clans keep cheating us!

And all the while our answer is FALCON HARDER! More righteous! More combat ready! More honourable!

And then someone says "You know, I'm tired of losing - or at least, not winning how we deserve to. I mean, no-one else makes an effort to be honorable like us! They don't deserve us being honourable at them!"

Once you take that step off the Honour Path ... ALL THAT RESENTMENT! Like a death chili suppository. Shit going to happen.
* No, FASA wasn't big on errata - ColBosch
* The Housebook series is from the 80's and is the foundation of Btech, the 80's heart wrapped in heavy metal that beats to this day - Sigma
* To sum it up: FASAnomics: By Cthulhu, for Cthulhu - Moonsword
* Because Battletech is a conspiracy by Habsburg & Bourbon pretenders - MadCapellan
* The Hellbringer is cool, either way. It's not cool because it's bad, it's cool because it's bad with balls - Nightsky
* It was a glorious time for people who felt that we didn't have enough Marauder variants - HABeas2, re "Empires Aflame"

Guardian11

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Re: Mongol Doctrine
« Reply #7 on: 01 June 2020, 23:09:04 »
To expand on the Hell's Horses variant of the Mongol Doctrine. They basically are adapting Mongol Cavalry tactics for use in a technologically advanced combined arms paradigm. Light, fast vehicles i.e. hovercraft and VTOLs, typically with long-ranged weaponry, take on the role of Mongol Light Horse Archers. They are supposed to sweep ahead skirmishing with a foe to drive them into their heavier forces, and then envelope them and attack from the flanks and rear. The Horses' Hephaestus Jump Tank is a perfect example of a vehicle designed to operate in the Horse Archer role.
The Hell's Horses Mech forces are supposed to be take on the role of the Mongol's Heavy Armored Cavalry. So Mechs in a Horde Cluster should ideally be Heavy or Fast Assault Mechs.
The Horde Clusters are supposed to take advantage of the same advantages that made Mongol Tactics so effective including, increased mobility, tactical flexibility, combined arms synergy, force efficiency, and coverage. Just as relatively small Mongol armies were able to defeat much larger forces and control vast amounts of territory, Horde Clusters are supposed to do the same things.
Another advantage of the Horde Clusters is that it simplifies production and logistics allowing Hell's Horses to concentrate their Mech and vehicle production on fewer designs with distinct tactical roles. Lots of light, relatively cheap vehicles and heavy-weight, hard-hitting Mechs. This is especially helpful since their infrastructure, numbers, and military-industrial complex is weaker than that of their Jade Falcon and Rasalhague Dominion neighbors.

Clan Jade Falcon, or at least Malvina, decided to emulate the strategic doctrines of the Mongols including the use of terror tactics, intimidation, and WMDs.

Maelwys

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Re: Mongol Doctrine
« Reply #8 on: 01 June 2020, 23:13:17 »
And that probably sums it up better than what I was trying to do.

The big thing to take away there is that the Horses use Tactics, and Malvina's is Strategic.

marauder648

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Re: Mongol Doctrine
« Reply #9 on: 02 June 2020, 05:01:57 »
Although its poorly explained its basically manouver warfare which the Clans practiced anyhow. But instead of bothering with the Batchall nonsense or the single engagement stuff.

Lighter, fast elements harry and harass hostile forces and either force them to move out of defensive positions to fall back or to engage at which point the hammer comes down from bigger Mechs and tanks to hammer and destroy hostile forces very quickly, probalby including massed fire, targetting command elements etc. Basically its an upscaled and even more aggressive form of Blitzkrieg. You hammer one force and smash it, and then move on to engage, encircle and destroy hostile elements that lets you use your speed, mobility and firepower to keep an opponent off balance and destroy them piecemeal.

The Falcons took this and ran with it mixing in real Mongol tactics of terror attacks, destroying survivors, even using stuff like orbital bombardment and the like, flattening towns, driving civilians before you and using them as shields or to clog up roads etc.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Mongol Doctrine
« Reply #10 on: 02 June 2020, 11:55:35 »
What is the Mongol Doctrine employed by the Horses

See the sections on “Mobility”, “Cavalry”, and “Ground Tactics” here, substitute appropriate Horse units, and adjust for mechanized combat formations instead of medieval infantry and cavalry:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_military_tactics_and_organization

Quote
and the one employed by Psycho McNutnuts?

See the sections on “Kharash” and “Psychological Warfare and Deception” at the link above and also most of the link below.  Add in narrative drama for storytelling purposes and the use of warships as kinetic weapons:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_under_the_Mongol_Empire
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pfarland

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Re: Mongol Doctrine
« Reply #11 on: 02 June 2020, 13:04:04 »
Can't beat the operational descriptions above. So I'll state something different.

The Horses took off the blinders and finally changed from the Honor of the Kill to the Honor of the Victory. Brilliant move and makes me a little sad to be such a die hard Jaguar. I adore their tactics now. Anyway, ole Malvina probably had some intel come across her and she put two and two together and learned the fun of over the top unrestrained violence and how to get others to gleefully follow you into that abyss. Perhaps she played her sibko's version of Grand Theft Auto 5 Million too often.
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Orwell84

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Re: Mongol Doctrine
« Reply #12 on: 03 June 2020, 03:24:18 »
Good explanations above, summed it all up nicely.

The only point I'd add is that the Hell's Horses never went with the terror aspect of the doctrine, and from their writeup in ER:3145 it's not in their nature. To them, it was more about playing to their tactical strengths. In A Rending of Falcons the Horses Galaxy Commander who first paired up with Malvina eventually realises where she is taking it and attempts to stop her (spoiler: he dies trying).

Most of the Horses who first supported the alliance with the Falcons balked when Malvina made a regular habit of wholesale butchery. Having their own warriors bombed from orbit on Timkovichi certainly didn't help either.

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