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Author Topic: How to use yellowjackets in combat.  (Read 2991 times)

Colt Ward

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Re: How to use yellowjackets in combat.
« Reply #150 on: 02 July 2020, 10:59:55 »
not really a fair test for the Yellowjackets unless you do it with terrain.  VTOL units are one of those that need lots of vertical terrain to really shine.

My own idea would be a modified Goat Path challenge, but yellowjackets for the VTOL unit and Clan forces for the ground unit.

this has the added benefit of giving the Jellowbucket player a reasonable chance of winning, since the terrain works against a lot of Clan advantages (Except mobility).

given the lower BV for light Clan units, (relatively lower-lower compared to other Clan units) it's a more honest test than picking an optimized unit (even inner sphere) like the Nightstar.

You know the original comment was a Hellstar?  And the post you responded to was about a Hellstar?  Which is a Clan mech and makes no sense of your comment?  Yeah, he typo'd Nightstar at one point but he was already doing as you asked before you said it.

why not test it against what it's claimed to be designed to fight?

A Clan force.

You keep chanting that mantra of 'any VTOL can beat it.'  Well, yeah . . . its not built for air to air combat we have examples of that like the Gossamer 2 I mentioned.  The Jacket is a CAS platform.  Your whole 'it is bad b/c other VTOLs can kill it' is absolutely pointless- its like saying a colander does not make a good bowl b/c it lets liquids out.  If you are using a VTOL you are accepting combined arms theory where a combined arms force uses the strength of one type to compensate for the weaknesses of another.  Because when playing combined arms I expect VTOLs and vehicles, I take equipment that has LBX- 5s & 10s- to deal with enemy air and degrade vehicles.  The Jacket is designed to provide additional anti-armor (generic, not meaning tank b/c we have no OSK paradigm) support to the battle line by hammering targets with 15 point hits to weaken them allowing mechs or armor to get further internal.  The Jacket can SOMETIMES get away with being ahead of your Main Line of Resistance (battle line), it can maybe get off one salvo before going into reverse to fall in behind the mechs & armor to continue to offer fire support.  The Jacket so employed should be at medium to long range from the core of enemy mechs which forces the decision- fire at the mechs/armor which is closer but can probably shrug off the hits or fire at the Jackets which are further away & harder to hit but if you can connect the Jacket is going to have problems.

Send in your own VTOLs to try for a A to A victory?  Well, my Jacket will usually be operating in my AA umbrella because its not designed to fight enemy air so it needs to have that weakness compensated for by another unit- which by preference is a Vedette or two with LB-5X if not more depending on BV (I prefer mech company w/ supports).  Of all the ones you mentioned, only the Warriors have stand off range and then by playing the position game I can still make you come into the AA umbrella if you want a shot at the Jacket.

Kit's report sounded (hard to say w/o pics) like the best employment of Jackets in support of a mech/armor battle line.  The battle sounded like a random BV match up and Kit won the paper-rock-scissors round for force building.  It also shows what can typically happen- a combined arms player will face a force that is set up for just mech killing.

AFAIK, no one has suggested playing turret wars which based on your last sentence might be where your assumptions are coming from.
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: How to use yellowjackets in combat.
« Reply #151 on: 02 July 2020, 11:03:39 »
You can counter even for the best bet, if you knew it would be opposing you and you could bring the countermeasure before the battle. Although just one battle report doesn't brings the sure proof, but 'it is weak because it is weak against this' kind of argument is somewhat cheap.

After all, is there anyone that denies that Yellow Jacket is a niche unit? Being a niche unit, it surely have a grave weakness.

I have to say it twice, really.

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Re: How to use yellowjackets in combat.
« Reply #152 on: 02 July 2020, 11:13:10 »
For introtech, yes. With the technology of the era in which Yellowjackets are available, there´s plenty of long-ranged Atlas designs available, so we don´t know which ones the opposition brought. If they were AS7-K, that´s four units out of six who can each match a Yellowjacket gauss slug for gauss slug.


It was a K2 and a K4. There were four map sheets, one lake, a few small forests and some small hills. One round I surrounded one of his Furies pretty good but it ducked behind a hill so it could only see one of my 'Mechs.
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Elmoth

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Re: How to use yellowjackets in combat.
« Reply #153 on: 02 July 2020, 11:19:38 »
Ok, I engaged in an exercise in futility: searching for a neutral matchup with mixed units. Let's see what I cam up with...

Let’s make it using preconfig lances to oppose and support the Jackets. I am taking the config lances from the kickstarter. Not ideal, but hey, at least randomizes the choice of units somewhat. The IS unit is specially bad since the Powers that Be were gimped by what was already in the AGOAC box when selecting units. I had no idea on what was there until I decided to do this exercise. 

Yellow jacket: BW (and Alpha Strike value): 782 (21)

KICKSTARTER CLAN STAR: BV (AS points). All in Prime configurations
Executioner 2749 (51)
Timber wolf 2737 (54)
Nova 2663 (41)
Grendel 2290 (46)
Adder 2083 (30)   
TOTAL: 12522 BV (222 AS points)

INNER SPHERE COMBAT LANCE
Warhammer 1299 (32)
Rifleman 1039 (26)
Phoenix Hawk 1041 (26)
Wasp 384 (14)
TOTAL: 3765 BW (98 AS points).

LOL!! Compared with the star of 12500 BW and 222 points looks like a somewhat biased challenge, even with jackets. You need 11.1 jackets in BW to make up the difference. IN Alpha Strike points you get less of them: 6 jackets to support the IS lance.

Seems like a bad matchup. Let’s try with the IS COMMAND lance form the kickstarter

INNER SPHERE COMMAND LANCE
Marauder 1363 (35)
Archer 1477 (39)
Valkyrie 723 (22)
Stinger 359 (14)
TOTAL: 3922 BV (110 AS points)

Better, but still a huge difference of 8600 points and 112 AS points. That comes up as 11 yellow jackets in BW or 5.3 jackets in Alpha Strike points.

In both cases it looks like the Clan uni should have the upper hand.

Now if be COMBINE both IS lances we get 3765 (98) + 3922 (110) = 7687 BV (208). A difference of 4835 BW (or 14 in AS points). Adding jackets to the mix for that value we end with 2 IS lances and 6 jackets (BW) or 2 lances and HALF a jacket in Alpha Strike :P So in the case of Apha strike we remove the 2 bug mechs (28 points) to field 2 yellow jackets in support of the 6 mechs and match exactly the 222 points of the clan star.

So the battle is:

CLAN STAR: Executioner, Timber wolf, Nova, Grendel, Adder

Vs

In BW: 
- Marauder, Archer, Warhammer, Rifleman,
- Phoenix Hawk, Valkyrie, Wasp, Stinger
+ 6 yellow jackets

In Alpha Strike (demicompany):
- Marauder, Archer, Warhammer, Rifleman, Phoenix Hawk, Valkyrie
+ 2 yellow jackets

No points invested in gunnery or piloting skills.

No idea how it would go since my knowledge of the clans is nonexistant (they do not really interest me) and I only play Alpha strike, but in the case of Alpha strike I am betting on the Clans after looking at their profiles.

Was fun to do. No idea if it shows anything for you guys.

Cannonshop

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Re: How to use yellowjackets in combat.
« Reply #154 on: 02 July 2020, 12:28:56 »
Ok, I engaged in an exercise in futility: searching for a neutral matchup with mixed units. Let's see what I cam up with...

Let’s make it using preconfig lances to oppose and support the Jackets. I am taking the config lances from the kickstarter. Not ideal, but hey, at least randomizes the choice of units somewhat. The IS unit is specially bad since the Powers that Be were gimped by what was already in the AGOAC box when selecting units. I had no idea on what was there until I decided to do this exercise. 

Yellow jacket: BW (and Alpha Strike value): 782 (21)

KICKSTARTER CLAN STAR: BV (AS points). All in Prime configurations
Executioner 2749 (51)
Timber wolf 2737 (54)
Nova 2663 (41)
Grendel 2290 (46)
Adder 2083 (30)   
TOTAL: 12522 BV (222 AS points)

INNER SPHERE COMBAT LANCE
Warhammer 1299 (32)
Rifleman 1039 (26)
Phoenix Hawk 1041 (26)
Wasp 384 (14)
TOTAL: 3765 BW (98 AS points).

LOL!! Compared with the star of 12500 BW and 222 points looks like a somewhat biased challenge, even with jackets. You need 11.1 jackets in BW to make up the difference. IN Alpha Strike points you get less of them: 6 jackets to support the IS lance.

Seems like a bad matchup. Let’s try with the IS COMMAND lance form the kickstarter

INNER SPHERE COMMAND LANCE
Marauder 1363 (35)
Archer 1477 (39)
Valkyrie 723 (22)
Stinger 359 (14)
TOTAL: 3922 BV (110 AS points)

Better, but still a huge difference of 8600 points and 112 AS points. That comes up as 11 yellow jackets in BW or 5.3 jackets in Alpha Strike points.

In both cases it looks like the Clan uni should have the upper hand.

Now if be COMBINE both IS lances we get 3765 (98) + 3922 (110) = 7687 BV (208). A difference of 4835 BW (or 14 in AS points). Adding jackets to the mix for that value we end with 2 IS lances and 6 jackets (BW) or 2 lances and HALF a jacket in Alpha Strike :P So in the case of Apha strike we remove the 2 bug mechs (28 points) to field 2 yellow jackets in support of the 6 mechs and match exactly the 222 points of the clan star.

So the battle is:

CLAN STAR: Executioner, Timber wolf, Nova, Grendel, Adder

Vs

In BW: 
- Marauder, Archer, Warhammer, Rifleman,
- Phoenix Hawk, Valkyrie, Wasp, Stinger
+ 6 yellow jackets

In Alpha Strike (demicompany):
- Marauder, Archer, Warhammer, Rifleman, Phoenix Hawk, Valkyrie
+ 2 yellow jackets

No points invested in gunnery or piloting skills.

No idea how it would go since my knowledge of the clans is nonexistant (they do not really interest me) and I only play Alpha strike, but in the case of Alpha strike I am betting on the Clans after looking at their profiles.

Was fun to do. No idea if it shows anything for you guys.

keep in mind: 2 lances of IS is considered equivalent to a single Clan Star.  So Eight to five isn't that bad, and that's only 'mechs, the vehicles become 'popcorn' to fill out the BV difference.

the rule of thumb in 'old' battlevalue calcs was eight IS 'mechs for every five Clan Omnis-this was supposedly a ratio that let BV2 give you a balanced fight.  (DO NOT apply the FSM from first printing of Techmanual!!)

Eight 'decent' introtech/3050 'mechs plus four YJ's versus a Nova of Clan equipment (or just a star if you pick good gear for the clanners) should gve you a fairly balanced matchup.  The choppers are 'popcorn' units, designed to pad your BV up to match the Clan unit you're matched against while not dragging you down with infantry speed limits.
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Elmoth

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Re: How to use yellowjackets in combat.
« Reply #155 on: 02 July 2020, 12:37:36 »
Well, the popcorn is higher value than each of the 2 lances xD  And there are 6 choppers, not 4. All at equivalent (base) skill levels for both sides. But it looks like the support of the choppers can be significant here. Much more in BV than using the alpha strike rules, where only a pair of choppers are around.

Cannonshop

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Re: How to use yellowjackets in combat.
« Reply #156 on: 02 July 2020, 12:48:18 »
Well, the popcorn is higher value than each of the 2 lances xD  And there are 6 choppers, not 4. All at equivalent (base) skill levels for both sides. But it looks like the support of the choppers can be significant here. Much more in BV than using the alpha strike rules, where only a pair of choppers are around.

Keep in mind two things:

1. for those six to be effective, their escorts need to be VERY effective, which means your BV is upside down and you should fix that.
2. god help them if your Clanner decides to flip the table by bringing a couple of Donars to the party, because all that protection becomes moot at that point.  (two Donars wil absolutely victmize six Yellowjackets without mercy or relent, unless the player running them is incompetent.)
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Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: How to use yellowjackets in combat.
« Reply #157 on: 02 July 2020, 13:30:49 »
Just for run, 6/9 movement that ignores any terrains is already enough to run away from a heavy to assault mechs. It is actually faster than some heavier mediums as well, for most 50 to 55 tons mediums are only have 5/8(/5).

Except then the Yellow Jacket can't shoot at anything.  Either it turns and runs, using full movement, less the MP to rotate, or it backs up at no more than cruise.  Then you are effectively 6MP or less if you want to engage.

The Hawkmoth at 8/12 can back up fast enough to credibly keep a heavy cavalry mech at arms length.  The Warrior or an LRM armed Cavalry can still fly backwards and handily play keep away.


Colt Ward

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Re: How to use yellowjackets in combat.
« Reply #158 on: 02 July 2020, 13:53:12 »
Keep in mind two things:

1. for those six to be effective, their escorts need to be VERY effective, which means your BV is upside down and you should fix that.
2. god help them if your Clanner decides to flip the table by bringing a couple of Donars to the party, because all that protection becomes moot at that point.  (two Donars wil absolutely victmize six Yellowjackets without mercy or relent, unless the player running them is incompetent.)

What are you talking about?  You keep trying to change the terms.  He just picked one of the Clan KS boxes vs 2 IS KS boxes and balanced it by adding in Jackets to balance the BV.  Suddenly adding Donars changes the terms- the whole point was use gear picked by a 3rd party and not specific to any scenario-  and AGAIN you want to trot out this line about how other VTOLs will damage them-  'Man those bombers suck, the fighter-bombers are going to kill them.'
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Re: How to use yellowjackets in combat.
« Reply #159 on: 02 July 2020, 14:05:15 »
I’ll note that there’s a Rifleman in the IS force.  Put the RFL between his choppers and yours, load up on flak rounds, and between that bonus and the anti-air targeting bonus those Donars are going to have a bad day.
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Re: How to use yellowjackets in combat.
« Reply #160 on: 02 July 2020, 14:30:24 »
 I think a good way to think of the Yellow Jacket is as part of the 3055 paradigm: Clans are scary, give me big gun that shoots far now. It is not modeled after the Warrior VTOL. As far as the AFFC was concerned, that it could survive a Clan PPC gave it the psychological advantage of the original Elemental (Short lived). Knowing that the Clans undervalued vehicles meant that many more Yellow Jackets could be fielded, with less bid to deal with them in turn. I do not think that Donors were part of the equation, as Clan vehicles were not primary invasion units.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: How to use yellowjackets in combat.
« Reply #161 on: 02 July 2020, 14:42:53 »
Except then the Yellow Jacket can't shoot at anything.  Either it turns and runs, using full movement, less the MP to rotate, or it backs up at no more than cruise.  Then you are effectively 6MP or less if you want to engage.

The Hawkmoth at 8/12 can back up fast enough to credibly keep a heavy cavalry mech at arms length.  The Warrior or an LRM armed Cavalry can still fly backwards and handily play keep away.




If you just want to run, you don't need to shoot. You have shoot that past turn and it's the time to retreat, or the situation seems bad and you want to flee anyways if you choose to run, in this case.

Because the section mentions hit and run, after making an ambush shot you don't need to hold the line and keep the position. It would be DEAD if it got caught, so all it can do without some supports is just shoot once and retreat.

Bosefius

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Re: How to use yellowjackets in combat.
« Reply #162 on: 02 July 2020, 15:08:36 »
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