What did the Steel Vipers get wrong (and what did they get right)?

[Guardian11]

Except, didn't the Vipers shoot themselves in the foot anyway by purging those survivors as losers and inferior warriors?

All I know is that the Vipers were incompetent at designing omnimechs.

I am not aware of the Vipers purging the survivors of Tukkayid. That was more of a Smoke Jaguar thing, and even they didn't purge anyone. The Jaguars just shunned those they blamed for their loss, and it is important to note that this shunning of the Tukkayid survivors didn't apply to every warrior who fought on Tukkayid. Lincoln Osis remained Khan and Brandon Howell was elevated to saKhan and Russou Howell was promoted to Galaxy Commander in the aftermath of Tukkayid due to their honorable performances during the battle. Most sources note how the Vipers by taking relatively light losses were in a powerful position in the aftermath of Tukkayid. Also, the Vipers by 3055 had taken 9 worlds from the Jade Falcons, and it was only because of their poor governance inspiring rebellion on those worlds, tying down their forces that they didn't take anymore.

If the Vipers held the survivors in low regard Perigard Zalman would never have been elected Khan. He was saKhan and commander of Gamma Galaxy on Tukkayid, so he would have been painted with that same brush. Khan Natalie Breen by taking the blame for the defeat on Tukkayid, and stepping down as Khan in favor of Perigard Zalman removed any stigma from the warriors that had fought at Tukkayid. Also, Perigard Zalman almost immediately after being elected Khan directed any Steel Viper ire or frustration against the Jade Falcons. So rather than directing blame inward at the survivors they directed it outward at the Falcons.

[Hellraiser]

Devil's advocate thoughts on Refusal War:

1.  Attacks in the middle of the trial would have been forbidden by clan practices.

2.  The Vipers actually WANTED the Falcons to win so they could continue the invasion of the IS if the Wolves lost.

3.  Attacks directly after the Trial was over might have united the now "Jade Wolves' & Falcons united into a common enemy & joint assault.

4.  Attacking a wounded foe would be seen as being weak similar to how Vlad attacked across the Bears & into the Jags to prove the Wolves were strong again.



Now, all that said, why they wanted 1/2 a decade or so to attack, I have no idea.

1 Year at the most would have been plenty of time IMHO to organize & assess the targets & then unleash on the lesser Falcons after the Wolves split back off.


It wouldn't have even needed to be a massive invasion either.
  Just strategic attacks to link up your worlds & claim resource rich &/or factory worlds from the Falcons.

Myself I would not have targeted the "Tip" of the OZ worlds.
  Leave the Falcons their pride at having something up front.
I'd have gone for the top half area of the map & consolidated around stuff like Twycross.

[Gaiiten]

The Vipers did have a great chance after the Refusal War. They could have escalated Trials of Possessions against Vlad Ward`s Wolves till they even might have declared a Trial of Absorption against the Wolves.

[Colt Ward]

I think folks are forgetting the timeline . . .

The Refusal War ended
Khans gathered to elect a ilKhan and push the invasion
Osis elected, 6+ months to prepare/evaluate, Harvest Trials announced
Taney's latest tantrum?
Op Bulldog kicks off as 6 months wind down
Op Serpent
Great Refusal
Wars of Possession start

Post Refusal the Steel Vipers were not looking at taking more territory from another Clan- they were planning on taking IS worlds.  Then they had to work fast in the Homeworlds to secure Cat/Jag/Bear territory that they could as well as fend off Hellions.

As predicted, with the Great Refusal the was IS no longer being a outlet for warrior ambition, the Clans had to find someone else . . . which is why the Vipers went after the Falcons years later than their weakest point.  Because they were planning to hit the Lyrans pushing for Terra.

[Hellraiser]

Good & Valid points Colt.

I was thinking the same thing when I mentioned the goal was hit the Lyrans.

But putting the entire timeline into visual makes it even more clear.

Vlad killed the ilKhan within days/weeks of the Refusal War & then they went back home to elect a new one so attacking in that time span really isn't realistic at all.

And then w/ Serpent arriving just as they were getting ready to come back to the IS you have another delay.

So the timing makes perfect sense when you look at all the delays which went on a bit longer than I was thinking.


It doesn't explain why they attempted to attack so many worlds at once.

I would have thought some minor world trading would be more likely given the clan practice of limited trials.

Followed by some attacks into the Lyran OZ like Marthe did in 58 with Coventry.

[Gaiiten]

I think folks are forgetting the timeline . . .

The Refusal War ended
Khans gathered to elect a ilKhan and push the invasion
Osis elected, 6+ months to prepare/evaluate, Harvest Trials announced
Taney's latest tantrum?
Op Bulldog kicks off as 6 months wind down
Op Serpent
Great Refusal
Wars of Possession start

Post Refusal the Steel Vipers were not looking at taking more territory from another Clan- they were planning on taking IS worlds.  Then they had to work fast in the Homeworlds to secure Cat/Jag/Bear territory that they could as well as fend off Hellions.

As predicted, with the Great Refusal the was IS no longer being a outlet for warrior ambition, the Clans had to find someone else . . . which is why the Vipers went after the Falcons years later than their weakest point.  Because they were planning to hit the Lyrans pushing for Terra.

Given the timeline:

End of Refusal War and Vlad`s Challenge - Dec 3058
Jade Falcons undertake their grand Coventry incursion: March - Juni 3059
Lincoln Osis is elected ilKhan - Nov 19 3059

There is almost a year the Steel Vipers could have attacked either the Jade Falcons or the "new" Wolves.
During the Falcons`Incusrion even Vlad Ward threatened to attack the rear of the Flacons. Vlad Ward`s Wolves were military a shadow of the old Wolves, the Vipers were far, far stronger. Lost opportunity, bad strategy leading to their expulsion.

[Colt Ward]

Yes, but in that year the Vipers were expecting to strike the IS because the Truce was going to be repudiated and none of the Invaders wanted to 'waste' their strength attacking each other- it was one of the Falcons complaints about the Wolves raiding them and 'waste' of fighting the whole Falcon OZ force.  The Falcons & Crusader Wolves had to attack someone to show they were still viable for the planned Grand Council meeting- the Vipers did not have to prove anything.

You also have to take out months for the Khans to travel to Strana Mechty.

[Cannonshop]

I think the poster Natasha_Kerensky has the strategic and tactical analysis dead to rights, including the intelligent questions such as why the Vipers didn't leverage more against the Inner Sphere forces by moving along the edge of the Falcon LZ as opposed to continuously attacking Jade Falcon assets or sitting idle.

(they did a lot of both).

What is a bit disturbing, is how completely UNLIKE their writeup in "Invading Clans" was their overall behaviour.  The turnaround from 'interesting possible faction' to two dimensional badguy was  almost neck-breakingly fast.   More importantly the degeneration from what promised to be a dangerous opponent into something infected by ineffectual crazy, and then to politically short-sighted suicidally stupid-crazy.

The Vipers weren't paired with an 'interior' clan-they could have cut their own route to Earth while sticking to the Truce line, establishing a supply line and nominally cooperating with the Falcons-but they didn't do that.  They basically harassed the Jade Falcons until they got kicked out by the Jade Falcons.

which doesn't really make sense for a faction that initially rolled out with this 'secret extra knowledge' cult and collection of unique and weird societal ideas that kept them out of the spotlight for over a century.

The vipers showed up without a plan, which was very disappointing, and then, upon being kicked out, they suddenly had a plan but it mostly revolved around savaging the home neighborhood with political manipulation.

I'm not entirely sure, but I suspect the problem for the Vipers was that they really didn't have anything like a plan in those made up secret Kerensky Secrets they'd been using internally to justify waffling and ineffectualness, and after Tukayyid, they didn't have any core beliefs left.

Kinda makes me wonder what would've been different if they hadn't lost a Khan to Comstar.