Is the FWLM Navy suffering for not having a large Pocket Warship?

[Annwn]

The League still has a shipyard that can build limited number DropShips, but not WarShips since those were wiped out.

Did I miss something?  Throughout the Jihad and at least up through 3130 that isn't true (re: Warship production capabilities).  The FWL is also the successor state associated the most with aerospace/naval capabilities in BT's RL history - it has a plenthora of production facilities for jumpships, dropships, and even warships when you go take a look.  How that framework comes out in terms of designs in the BT universe is another topic though.

Some examples -

ImStar Aerospace orbital facilities on Atreus are intact - warship construction capability included - they only shut down production of the Agamemnon class due to parts shortages from Ionus. 

Illium Shipyards on Ionus are also intact and, to the best of my knowledge, are the "among" the only yards in the Successor States capable of producing compact KF drives & warship engines.  I believe another source that I can't recall makes them the only Successor State who can build warships - I'm not sure if they're referring to both drives and engines, or only engines perhaps.  They only switched production to jumpships btw and that was because they were encountering supplier/supply difficulties (presumably less of a problem with a reformed FWL). 

SelaSys has shipyards above Loyalty that could potentially handle warship construction still (it can definitely handle final assembly). 

Technicron Manufacturing built warships above Tamarind and warship construction was merely halted.  It is not 100% clear what happened to their ability to build compact KF drives for warships at the same yard.  The yard wasn't damaged in the Jihad however, so presumably it can still produce them. 

Check out - Handbook House Marik, Field Report FWL, Objectives FWL, & Touring the Stars:Ionus.  Touring the Stars:Ionus updates the bit about warship KF drives & engines to the 3130 time period. 

The FWL never lost the capability to produce warships - it merely lost the desire and suffered some big blows to it's ability to undertake massive projects like warship programs with the breakup of the FWL.  Now the FWL is reformed...and it appears to still have a pretty massive warship production capability waiting in the wings.  The last time it focused on it's warship program it outproduced several other successor states combined in short order.  That history and this continued capability is what makes this thread about their lack of a large PWS sort of interesting.  It would be short of fitting if they spit out actual warships (ie some smaller corvettes or such) to compete with a couple of the heaviest PWS designs. 

[Maingunnery]

NO, you can't afford to-becauce unlike your cargo mammoths, you're using the thing that holds your entire realm's economy out of the toilet as a particularly (and spectacularly) vulnerable link in to combat.

Same thing can be said about regular military dropships and their JS.

see, if you can build a jumpship, and you can build a dropship, and you can build a "Pocket warship" you can build a warship.

NO. Practical WarShips require larger slips, special fusion engines (they aren't DS engines), and Capital Guns (not sub-capital).

The PWS concept can rely on mostly regular industries, which should be present, but if missing locally, either means already buying the parts from elsewhere or rebuilding those industries locally. 

[Cannonshop]

Same thing can be said about regular military dropships and their JS.
NO. Practical WarShips require larger slips, special fusion engines (they aren't DS engines), and Capital Guns (not sub-capital).

The PWS concept can rely on mostly regular industries, which should be present, but if missing locally, either means already buying the parts from elsewhere or rebuilding those industries locally.

except per canon, the Lyrans never rebuilt their yards.  This  is important, because it means everything was imported.  Start a war, and now, they don't have that imported shipping, imported parts, etc. to keep what navy they still have.

and yeah, the lack of jumpship production is just as bad for regular dropships-that's my point.

Hammerfall can be best described as the shuddering death throes of a dying animal, because the Lyran Commonwealth, like every other state in the setting relies on black-maritime to hold itself together.

Administratively, industrially and economically, it doesn't matter how big your army is, if you can't move it and keep it moving...and they can't, not once it becomes a war.  Having a Warship is worthless if you can't repair it.  PWS doesn't change that, it just means that you get less use out of it at higher expense in the aggregate for the ability to die slower, and if you have the ability to build them, they're really only good as a stopgap until you can build the bigger slips, bigger forges, and so on, because they're not as useful and their movement is significantly more vulnerable (Easier to strand and leave irrelevant.)

For the same price in manpower and materials, a pre=pocketwarship carrier dropship is more useful, has a more useful throw-weight, is easier to maintain, costs less, drip=drop.  The whole reason PWS's worked at all, was that they were unexpected, once they stopped being unexpected, they became less useful than other, more standard dropships for all the tasks you can use them for except orbital bombardments.

while still retaining the same basic defect any dropship navy is going to have-that being, complete reliance on commercial grade shipping to move on the strategic level.

(or tactical level in larger systems.)

[Maingunnery]

except per canon, the Lyrans never rebuilt their yards.  This  is important, because it means everything was imported.  Start a war, and now, they don't have that imported shipping, imported parts, etc. to keep what navy they still have.

and yeah, the lack of jumpship production is just as bad for regular dropships-that's my point.

Hammerfall can be best described as the shuddering death throes of a dying animal, because the Lyran Commonwealth, like every other state in the setting relies on black-maritime to hold itself together.

Administratively, industrially and economically, it doesn't matter how big your army is, if you can't move it and keep it moving...and they can't, not once it becomes a war.  Having a Warship is worthless if you can't repair it. 

So what? Either they found a reliable source of JumpShips or are too incompetent to rebuild their own yards.

PWS doesn't change that, it just means that you get less use out of it at higher expense in the aggregate for the ability to die slower, and if you have the ability to build them, they're really only good as a stopgap until you can build the bigger slips, bigger forges, and so on, because they're not as useful and their movement is significantly more vulnerable (Easier to strand and leave irrelevant.)

Getting WarShips is a lot harder then you make it out to be.

For the same price in manpower and materials, a pre=pocketwarship carrier dropship is more useful, has a more useful throw-weight, is easier to maintain, costs less, drip=drop.  The whole reason PWS's worked at all, was that they were unexpected, once they stopped being unexpected, they became less useful than other, more standard dropships for all the tasks you can use them for except orbital bombardments.

Got anything to prove either of those assertions?

[Colt Ward]

*snip*

The Lyrans had access to a shipyard for repair . . . at least until 3148-ish . . . unless it was moved beforehand- Lupus Majoris.  We also have minor canonical notations about jumpship repair yards- like Swarkteklip or whatever as said in a Chaos Irregulars story.

[Cannonshop]

So what? Either they found a reliable source of JumpShips or are too incompetent to rebuild their own yards.

Getting WarShips is a lot harder then you make it out to be.

Got anything to prove either of those assertions?

Game it out using C-bills and fights, Maingunnery, using a strategic map, see how many fighters (which can kill just about everything,  honestly) you can produce, how many carrier type droppers you can obtain for the same price as any of your PWS designs, and how well said PWS actually stands up to a proportional economic value in carrier-and-ground-based fighters with adequate armament for engaging dropships.

NOw, consider that I can strand your Pocket Warships in a system by interdicting your shipping, especially if they're on the attack, but also if you're trying to move them to respond to an attack in a nearby system.

Your dependence on jumpships for strategic mobility is a significant weakness that is easily exploited even by non-jumping local defense forces.  All I need, is to deny you the ability to resupply or escape and that force is done for the campaign, unable to advance or retreat, and if it's something like a Castrum, unable to land for refueling.

The main reason PWS were effective in the first place, was that they were unexpected, up against incompetents (the ramming fetishists), and deployed at a lucky time for an extreme niche unit that only really works against SLDF designs that lack point defenses and will sit still while being pounded into scrap (Or against incompetently used modern designs, as happend with the Lucien Davion, who will sit still and let themselves be pounded into scrap while holding low orbit to play at being an attack airplane).

Honestly now? the doctrine only works in fiction, where they had the power of Plot to protect them.

[Maingunnery]

Game it out using C-bills and fights, Maingunnery, using a strategic map, see how many fighters (which can kill just about everything,  honestly) you can produce, how many carrier type droppers you can obtain for the same price as any of your PWS designs, and how well said PWS actually stands up to a proportional economic value in carrier-and-ground-based fighters with adequate armament for engaging dropships.

That all depend upon the fighters being available, there is a thing as production limits you know. We even got mass-produced XXL mechs now, your C-bills aren't as relevant as you might think.

NOw, consider that I can strand your Pocket Warships in a system by interdicting your shipping, especially if they're on the attack, but also if you're trying to move them to respond to an attack in a nearby system.

The same can be said of the Carrier DS if you were actually successful at interdicting an entire system, and a WS that has used up its charge is also not going to be able to respond. DropShips have the advantage of being able to use a series of JumpShips to travel even faster than any WS could. 

[Cannonshop]

That all depend upon the fighters being available, there is a thing as production limits you know. We even got mass-produced XXL mechs now, your C-bills aren't as relevant as you might think.
The same can be said of the Carrier DS if you were actually successful at interdicting an entire system, and a WS that has used up its charge is also not going to be able to respond. DropShips have the advantage of being able to use a series of JumpShips to travel even faster than any WS could.

If you have production limits on fighters, that's like having production limits on cars.  you don't need a massive shipyard complex to build fighters.  If you can build PWS (or afford to buy them) you can build fighters in quantity (or buy them).

so no, your hypothesis there doesn't hang together.

Second: Carrier dropships vs. PWS: again, if you can procure PWS, procuring carrier dropships using the same basket of resources comes out far cheaper.  This isn't 3024 anymore where the factories are relics of a by gone era that nobody knows how to work on or with turning out magical devices nobody understands.

so those limits are done.  If you can afford to build the more advanced thing (PWS require more knowledge than a simple box with airlocks and an engine) then you can build the less advanced things cheaper and in larger quantity.

Which is good, because the less advanced thing happens to be more effective at every job you actually need the more advanced thing to perform except Orbital bombardment, which is a task you really don't need to fill in order to maintain the task of 'defending your system'.

(Palmyra demonstrates why it's arguably not that useful as a tool of offense, either.)

the second point you answered:

Yes.  Both carrier dropships and PWS have the same defect there.  both can be stranded. Which is why only an idiot sits on a big barrel of money (which the Lyrans apparently still had) without addressing it by building armed jumpships capable of maneuevering.

Especially in a neighbourhood that includes a Clan that never gave up the dream of conquest and has shipyards.

NOte: We are talking about the Lyrans in a FWL thread, but my point is, 'don't be like the Lyrans', who basically put the keys to their kingdom in Devlin Stone's sweaty fingers and did NOT rebuild their shipbuilding industry, but instead relied on a handful of rotting hulks and a lot of imported shipping they can't move strategically, can't repair, can't replace and can't maintain.

PWS doctrine is a trap.  They aren't strategically maneuverable and they cost a lot of money, resources and time compared to more conventional dropship types, but don't give you the same benefits (aside from Orbital bombardment, which is of...limited...utility) as an actual self-moving fleet.  They're at BEST good for the static defense in a situation where your talent pool is sharply limited and your risks are short-term and local/self limiting.

They might adequately serve as an adjunct to a functioning navy capable of serving a state-as assault units attached to a real navy, but trying to use them as your real navy will leave you bled dry in short order if you aren't producing a surplus of jumpships.

[Wrangler]

Hows this related to the thread's main subject?   FWL Navy suffering for not having large pocket warships?

Cannonshop, i respect you and i get you don't like pocket warships.  But this thread is going into debate hasn't anything to do with what subject is.

[Cannonshop]

Hows this related to the thread's main subject?   FWL Navy suffering for not having large pocket warships?

Cannonshop, i respect you and i get you don't like pocket warships.  But this thread is going into debate hasn't anything to do with what subject is.

sorry for the digression.  where I wanted ot get to with the FWL situation is thus:

They're not suffering for lack of PWS, they're suffering for lack of a navy...but have the potential to actually fix this.  PWS probably isn't a good long term investment for the FWL, but fighter carriers are-because they're multirole and multimission, less expensive than PWS, just as portable, with potentially (ton for ton) better throw weight.

what the FWLN needs, however, is an actual fleet.  at least, if they ever want to get out of the hole of being the bucket o' resources the protagonist factions dip into at will, they need an actual fleet.  if they want Reunification to stick, they need an actual fleet.

that fleet doesn't have to be fancy-restarting Zechetinu production and adding an occasional League Destoyer can be enough-the ability to respond to an attack in a timely manner is worth a thousand invincible castle systems isolated from each other.  Thus, why pWS doctrine is a trap-you end up unable to react because you have to arrange transport instead of having self-transporting forces.

Prestige pieces don't win campaigns, and PWS aren't utility pieces, they're prestige pieces.  Strong utilities and fundamentals win campaigns.  if you can build 11 Shermans for the price of one King Tiger, you don't invest in King Tigers if you want to win. 

but that's like versus like.  'Shermans' being conventional carrier dropships with fighters versus the King Tiger known as PWS.

on the bigger scale, it doesn't matter how many tanks you can build, if you can't get them across the Atlantic.  You need a fleet that is mobile to do that.

[Maingunnery]

FWL Navy suffering for not having large pocket warships?

Yes.

They are easy to produce units that present a higher threshold for enemy forces to to meet, thus very discouraging to any raiders.
With the proper preparation (Command Circuit) these heavy units can be moved across the realm much faster than a WS.
As we can see with the Aesir/Vanir, a good PWS hull can be used for any combination of big weapons and ASFs, so variants can be made to match current needs, resources, and available personnel (the latter always a downside with pure carriers). 

[Colt Ward]

Its all fine cannonshop, but you are butting up to one of the principle setting constructs and something that was considered a 'success' of the Jihad- they wiped out the fleets.  I mean, heck they forgot the Warden Wolves had one ship and when asked it was just 'something happened to it' as the official answer though its never been laid out.

[Hellraiser]

I will admit the one good point I've really seen here is the ability to use PWS in a command circuit.
That said, that works for just about any DS.

I think the Definition of PWS is an Assault DS that happens to carry Cap Missiles or Sub-Cap weapons.
At least that is how I understand it.

To me however the best for fleet support would be an Assault-Carrier.
Something like the Titan only w/ even more armor & guns.

For Example:  Take something the size of the Colossus & give it the same fighter capacity of the Titan, & pump up the engine Overlord-A3 style & finally add some Marines & Shuttles & then fill it out with a boatload of guns... And then I think you got yourself a serious contender for useful Anti-WS tactics.


The Gorgon mentioned earlier also is a weird choice for the FWL since I thought they were fluffed as not even being able to fill the ASF slots for all their Thera Super-Carriers.
So if you have the Thera & the Vengeance & the Leo-CV...... and you can't fill them all as is............. What do you need a Gorgon for?

[Cannonshop]

Its all fine cannonshop, but you are butting up to one of the principle setting constructs and something that was considered a 'success' of the Jihad- they wiped out the fleets.  I mean, heck they forgot the Warden Wolves had one ship and when asked it was just 'something happened to it' as the official answer though its never been laid out.

Like my own digression, that ends up being a separate discussion though-and one that probably has been had before.

[Minemech]

 The Free Worlds League is a maritime power. It probably saw Pocket Warships as Galleasses, a ship class that was fearsome within its timeframe, but not a long-term threat to a serious maritime power. If you think of assault ships as galleys, it makes sense. Due to their inability to jump, they primarily serve as greenish-blackwater naval platforms. The bigger mystery is if the League has been quietly building a blackwater navy.

 An alternative take comes from the history of the Eastern Roman empire. A poor emperor failed to maintain the navy, which cost the Romans dearly.