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Author Topic: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)  (Read 4516 times)

Colt Ward

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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #90 on: 01 August 2020, 22:18:53 »
No - Vlad created a new Clan and transferred all of Clan Jade Wolfs assets to it.
Either way, Crichell was Vlads former Khan as he was a Jade Falcon for a short while.
But we are talking about the creation of the Jade Wolves . . . and IIRC Vlad never put on the green bird.
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #91 on: 01 August 2020, 22:41:05 »
Considering how fast things went from Wolf to Jade Falcon to Jade Wolf to Wolf it's not likely Vlad even had time to change clothes, let alone have new insignia made.  At least that's how it seemed to me, especially for the latter part of that sequence.

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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #92 on: 02 August 2020, 09:48:38 »
So to get back on topic... with Rock of the Republic, we now have the first major retcon on Surrender Your Dream's epilogue.  In Epilogue 2 of SYD, the Custos announces to the Fidelis have been freed from their debt to the Republic.  This was originally to take place 21+ years past the start-up of Fortress Republic (So at least 3156).

This has now been retconned, as Custos Paul gets the Fidelis freed in 3149 in RotR, and is no longer serving the Republic.  And based on Divided We Fall, we know that Paul is striking some sort of deal with Khan Alaric Ward of the Wolves.

We DO however know that in 3250, based on 2nd Succession War, that there is an IlClan, but also an Exarch still around.

So what is going on?
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #93 on: 02 August 2020, 10:01:19 »
So to get back on topic... with Rock of the Republic, we now have the first major retcon on Surrender Your Dream's epilogue.  In Epilogue 2 of SYD, the Custos announces to the Fidelis have been freed from their debt to the Republic.  This was originally to take place 21+ years past the start-up of Fortress Republic (So at least 3156).

This has now been retconned, as Custos Paul gets the Fidelis freed in 3149 in RotR, and is no longer serving the Republic. 

I thought that, based on Moon's age, the consensus view was that the epilogue had to be set around 3150 anyway (with Fortress Republic being dated from some earlier planning for it or something)?

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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #94 on: 02 August 2020, 10:56:25 »
I thought that, based on Moon's age, the consensus view was that the epilogue had to be set around 3150 anyway (with Fortress Republic being dated from some earlier planning for it or something)?

That is correct.  Per the author. 

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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #95 on: 02 August 2020, 12:38:53 »
We DO however know that in 3250, based on 2nd Succession War, that there is an IlClan, but also an Exarch still around.

So what is going on?

Exarch= Director General

IlKhan = First Lord

Just my hypothesis
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #96 on: 02 August 2020, 12:41:48 »
I really hoped RotR would go into what DAMNATIO was all about but no such luck.

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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #97 on: 02 August 2020, 12:44:44 »
Exarch= Director General First Lord

IlKhan = First Lord Commanding General of the SLDF

Just my hypothesis

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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #98 on: 02 August 2020, 12:45:52 »
Given the cover picture, IMHO the battle armors look far too small in relation to the Mech they are attacking.
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #99 on: 02 August 2020, 13:32:52 »
Kages?  Kages are always light . . . but I did not pick out the single Elemental.
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #100 on: 02 August 2020, 13:46:26 »
That is correct.  Per the author. 

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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #101 on: 02 August 2020, 14:31:48 »
I really hoped RotR would go into what DAMNATIO was all about but no such luck.

I can't be 100% sure, but I think Operation DAMNATIO was the RAF destroying the nu-ComGuard.  That was detailed in Turning Points: Epsilon Eridani, and Spotlight on: Enduring Faith Beta-III. 

I'm probably wrong though.
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #102 on: 02 August 2020, 15:04:56 »
I can't be 100% sure, but I think Operation DAMNATIO was the RAF destroying the nu-ComGuard.  That was detailed in Turning Points: Epsilon Eridani, and Spotlight on: Enduring Faith Beta-III. 

I'm probably wrong though.
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #103 on: 02 August 2020, 15:43:54 »
nu-ComGuard was trashed in 3141.  TP: Epsilon Eridani.
Stone is awakened by Tucker in 3145.
Devlin launches OPERATION DAMNATIO and Levin is busy with OPERATION DAMNATIO in FM3145, set in 3145.  FM3145 p135-136.

The defeat of the new ComGuard and DAMNATIO are separate events.
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #104 on: 02 August 2020, 15:57:33 »
You're not wrong.

I'm pretty sure that is wrong. FM 3145 says that DAMNATIO was launched at Stone's direction but he wasn't revived until after the purge of the Blessed Order. Moreover, it says that the 10th and 15th Hastati took place in DAMNATIO instead of Stone's Brigade regiments. TP:EE says that the RAF used the 14th Hastati and Stone's Revenants.

Whatever DAMNATIO was, it wasn't the Comstar Purge. The only other details I can find:
-It "removed a knife from [the Republic's] back." (FM3145)
-It was personally directed by Levin (FM3145)

I found no other references in Shattered Fortress or any of the XTROs. It's a big 'ol question mark.

EDIT: Wow, ninja'd hard


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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #105 on: 02 August 2020, 17:30:34 »
I may be completely wrong, but operation damnatio wasn't supposed to be when the Republic of the Sphere found out who was behind the blackout and was supposed to be covered in the (probably canceled) Milestones epub series?

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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #106 on: 02 August 2020, 17:51:11 »
I may be completely wrong, but operation damnatio wasn't supposed to be when the Republic of the Sphere found out who was behind the blackout and was supposed to be covered in the (probably canceled) Milestones epub series?
I was going to mention that. It was suppose to be like a sort of mini-sourcebook sort thing i think.
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #107 on: 02 August 2020, 18:20:38 »
I may be completely wrong, but operation damnatio wasn't supposed to be when the Republic of the Sphere found out who was behind the blackout and was supposed to be covered in the (probably canceled) Milestones epub series?
Wait a minute, who is even left to blame for the Blackout? The Wolverines?
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #108 on: 02 August 2020, 18:25:44 »
Kages?  Kages are always light . . . but I did not pick out the single Elemental.

Its there clise to cockpit
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #109 on: 02 August 2020, 18:57:57 »
Not Rock of the Republic, but the Intro to TRO: Golden Century is another data point regarding if the Republic's apparent helplessness is cover for secret plan, or just shows the end of result of dumb known plans failing.

In it Paladin Lakewood declares the operations launched on the dropping of the wall a failure, which seems another point in favour of "dumb known plans failing".

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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #110 on: 02 August 2020, 19:30:55 »
Besides everything mentioned in the thread there's one thing I didn't understand.
In Surrender Your Dreams the Fidelis were stated to *hate* the Clans. They attacked Wolves and Jade Falcons furiously, to the point that it other RotS soldiers kept wondering it they were Wolverines. They have also refer to their annihilation as "The Great Betrayal" (can't remember in which novel).

However, they way Paul Moon talks about a possible ilClan almost makes me thing he respects them. Don't know if this is a deliberated change of direction or if I simply didn't understand their relationship with the clans
I still bit confused about that as well.  Fidelis in Surrender was very well noted their righteous anger and spite. They feared being captured that they had implants that liquidated their bodies if their dying and going get captured. 

I guess they have less fear of that happening...
It will be interesting how this pans out.
« Last Edit: 02 August 2020, 19:42:59 by Wrangler »
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #111 on: 02 August 2020, 19:41:14 »
They had lived in fear of being discovered as Smoke Jaguar, but also a belief that one day they would reveal themselves.
You are hiding and doing everything to protect that secrecy, until it is time to grab that reward.
Though we have yet to see how revealing themselves works out.  Might have been better staying in the shadows.
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #112 on: 02 August 2020, 23:09:26 »
I still think the Fidelis have been playing the long game. Moon has been pushing himself to live as long as possible, something that is against his nature, still knowing he wasn't going to live to see the end goal. We know, that EVEN if other Clans accepted them as Clan, they couldn't hold against any contenders anyway.

One thing that the Fedelis DO have going for them is years of untouched and unparalleled access to data on Terra that both ComStar and the Word of Blake had there. This could have given them the necessary info to finish a long held bogeyman of the Clans and bring legitimacy back for their newly revealed status.

Given their tendency towards non standard operations, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they were somehow, through back channels, funding Interstellar Operations. Or at the minimum at least receiving their data towards Minnesota Tribe Expeditions.

Given their welcome by Alaric they already had something they were coming to the table with. As warriors they wouldn't get the 'Clan Type' respectful welcome if they even HAD been welcome. If they were recognized as a Clan force Alaric would have just challenged them for the force. It would have been too big a flotilla to just let go freely. Thus, Alaric accepted Paul Moon as a Clan Warrior of close to equal level as himself as well as on friendly terms. There is no way that would have happened without GOOD reason.

The info on Terra's defenses would have been a good bargaining tool, but he would have needed more to get away so freely. What else and what other reason would be so compelling to let that kind of force, hell, just equipment waltz away? Something pretty damn powerful I think and I just don't see the Fedelis having anything else to offer than information.

Letting them go after the Wolverines is something that could VASTLY work in Alaric's bid to become, and more importantly stay, IlKhan. The first years he'll be at his weakest while his enemies are at their most likely to contest his position. Having another Clan reconstituted through their actions of finally putting an end to the mystery of the Unnamed, that new Smoke Jaguar with thus be VERY loyal AND VERY experienced, and to act as a special forces Clan to keep in line his detractors.

All of this hinges on two key things. First that the surviving Wolverines are at best, hard scrub survivors and not and active fighting force. Second that the surviving WoB people don't get to the Wolverines first. Look at how many DIVISIONS survived the Jihad. How many KNOWN "lost worlds" were never found.

I think something new and terrifing looms on the horizon and it will be a while before the Jaguars come running not with good news, but bad. The Inner Sphere has become Rome and the Barbarians are again on the way.
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #113 on: 03 August 2020, 05:49:37 »
According to Forever Faithful, the Fidelis consciously decided that Clan Smoke Jaguar was finished, dead, and buried; they (the Fidelis) would reforge the remnant into something new and distinct.
To me, that indicates they wouldn't truly seek ilClanship - in part because they wouldn't be eligible anyways as they're not (a) Clan anymore. To them, it's just a meaningless word. They seem to have shed Clan short-sightedness and thus may be using the concept of ilClan, and their own background, as just another tool to play the Clans.

Alaric, for his part, also comes across as a highly flexible pragmatist. They should get along splendid. Perhaps the Fidelis are going to become for the DA an ilClan eras what Wolf's Dragoons were for the late Succession Wars, Clan Invasion and Civil War eras - the movers and shakers who don't really belong into any camp.
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #114 on: 03 August 2020, 09:40:20 »
According to Forever Faithful, the Fidelis consciously decided that Clan Smoke Jaguar was finished, dead, and buried; they (the Fidelis) would reforge the remnant into something new and distinct. <Snip>

Oh, I certainly don't believe they are going for IlClan. He specifically said that wasn't something that was for the Faithful (damn that sounds so much better). He seemed very "good for them" about either Wolf or Falcon going for Terra and alongside it outright distaste for being involved in it and admitting not only wasn't it their path, but it wouldn't even be possible.

While he did do that, he also said that it was the time for the Faithful to reveal their Jaguar origins. That would certainly explain how he could be accepted as Clan, but the WHY would the Faithful get that acceptance when that more pragmatic thing would be to just seize the equipment at the very least.

Whether my wild theory pans out or not, I do see the Jags returning and returning as more of a Spec Ops Clan than anything else. If that happens I couldn't be happier as my Jags would finally be in a forn that actually matches my fighting style AND in an all new era.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #115 on: 03 August 2020, 10:29:15 »
I still think the Fidelis have been playing the long game. Moon has been pushing himself to live as long as possible, something that is against his nature, still knowing he wasn't going to live to see the end goal. We know, that EVEN if other Clans accepted them as Clan, they couldn't hold against any contenders anyway.

You are talking about 3060s to 3150 . . . they had time to grow and without the Trueborn limitations, they have a larger segment of the population to tap.

With the end of Surrender Your Dreams being tossed out the window and the revision of ilClan, I think its safe to say what happens with the Fidelis has undergone some revision if it was ever exactly spelled out.
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #116 on: 03 August 2020, 11:07:58 »
You are talking about 3060s to 3150 . . . they had time to grow and without the Trueborn limitations, they have a larger segment of the population to tap.

With the end of Surrender Your Dreams being tossed out the window and the revision of ilClan, I think its safe to say what happens with the Fidelis has undergone some revision if it was ever exactly spelled out.

I don't doubt that they could have fielded some serious numbers if they needed to. The issue is more of a logistic one than anything. Something a true strategist like Moon would understand. They only really had the use of one (even if highly developed) world. Even counting the support of the Republic, which disappeared quite a few years ago, there is only so much a world can produce or purchase. Plus, they were a (very) active combat unit. Even the best of the best will suffer losses that need to be replaced.

I have no doubt that they would have the personnel to take to the field, my doubts are in what could be fielded. Sadly there would be way too many infantry as I suspect that most, if not ALL, of The Faithful are considered combat personnel. This gets into my belief in what The Faithful have become. They are now true soldiers. They have adopted the modern military ethos of "You are an infantryman FIRST and foremost. Whatever job you signed up for is SECONDARY." It's the natural extension or path of their warrior culture and a survivalist nature that had to be adopted that was then formed into an extremely hardcore fighting force.

No worries from me as to the quality or potentially the numbers able for fielding. I'm pretty sure Alaric found these new Jaguars not only fascinating, but potentially VERY useful. That is part of the reason why he would listen. What we have to look for is a reason as to why he would let a prize like their Jumpships, Dropships, Mechs and all the like go without a fight? Sure he would take some losses, but the gains would far outweigh those losses.

The information of Terra's defenses, even if Moon would trade those, would doubtfully be enough and Alaric is FAR canny enough to come up with a pretense to invalidate any bargain. It's possible that some safeguard could be put in place like an unloch code to be transmitted, but even then that's something that could be found out under the Watch's eye. Sorry, there is SOMETHING else here that was discussed, even if it wasn't my wild theory, that made Alaric think that keeping these new Jags around was worth more than all that equipment and prestige.
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #117 on: 03 August 2020, 12:29:05 »
I got an impression that Clarion Call, the Blackout, is a project of Stone's but someone else triggered it. FM3145 fiction has Stone saying he just designed a gun but didn't fire it (EDIT Of course, he could be just claiming he literally, physically didn't activate it even if he ordered it to happen). But admittedly it and Rock of the Republic do also imply Stone is hiding something. Perhaps his trigger is also a plan of Stone's but one that went rogue?
If the Blackout was indeed Stone's plan, it would've made more sense as a military contingency. Perhaps it even started as one, but Stone steered it to another direction.

RotR kinda has Stone implying it was supposed to happen at some point though, and presumably cause a slow collapse while leaving the Republic a shining citadel to look up to. Me thinks Stone has been reading too much Asimov's Foundation, and thought he could do Hari Seldon, only without math or psychic powers to back up his plans.
Really makes me think David Lear was the brain and soul behind the Republic, while Stone was the face. But being the face made him think he was the soul, and ate away his brain.
Very human. Stupid? Undoubtedly. But humans tend to be pretty shit at planning stuff through. (I think that if WWII were to be told as a story and quite factually, audiences wouldn't believe it because of the amount of stupidity and human failings it has.)

If the Blackout was caused at the wrong time, there question who did it is still unanswered. Actually kinda hoping there is no external enemy, because Blakist remnants or agents of the Homeworld Clans would be just Jihad part II or Clan Invasion II in spirit. And basically no one else makes sense. Except the Super Wolverines who protect the Inner Sphere from aliens.

If the Blackout did happen when it was meant to, i wonder if the Fidelis might be behind the military strike parts and other physical disruption. They were pretty secret force and probably capable of sabotage as well. Alternatively, Stone has another similar secret. Wolverine survivors? Not serious on this one but it gets the idea across.

I do like these revelations, and they don't me dislike the Republic, because it has good ideas in it.


As for the Fortress Wall, i think the KF-core requirement implies Hyperspace Interceptors, of the options Shattered Fortress gave us. Interceptors would presumably be single use devices, hence the KF-cores being in limited supply.
I suppose the Disruption Field theory is possible though, using KF-drives as "bombs" when incoming ship is detected, with the "bomb" disruption field reversing/misjumping the incoming ship's jump.
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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #118 on: 03 August 2020, 12:51:49 »
Tucker noted that some of the plan had been triggered before Stone went on ice, so Stone ordered the commencement.

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Re: Rock of the Republic explains . . (spoilers)
« Reply #119 on: 03 August 2020, 12:58:37 »
Tucker noted that some of the plan had been triggered before Stone went on ice, so Stone ordered the commencement.
I interpreted that as being a preparation step, not final execution. Like, say, wiring HPGs to receive disabling signal, or something like that.
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