100 Years of Occupation

[Savage Baron]

So, by 3151, the Clans have been in parts of the Inner Sphere for almost a century.  In that light, are they still considered occupation zones? Has the Clan managed to win over a large enough part of the populations to be safe from rebellions the moment their Trueborn backs are turned?

I know CGB has created Rasalhague 2.0 and is in the best place with their Spheroid citizens. And on the opposite end seems to be CJF, with rebellions much more likely as they are still viewed as occupiers.

I'm not as sure where CW, Nova Cat, and CHH fall into the mix.

Have most people in the OZs become part of the Clans or are they still loyal to the old regimes?

[CJC070]

According to 3145 era report the IS and the CHH were more Ghost Bears where the populace was largely treated with more velvet glove than the iron hand.  Where as the Wolves and Falcons were still very heavy handed in their approach to solving problems.
By the brief write up they had about the Clan Hell’s Horses and their territory the populace seems to be very quiet in terms of rebellions and resistance movements.
Most of the occupied worlds people are probably more loyal to their planet than to any government.  Hopefully we get an update especially with the Wolves gone from the OZ and the Falcons position weak.

[SteveRestless]

Where as the Wolves and Falcons were still very heavy handed in their approach to solving problems.

Citation Needed. The Wolves have never been particularly heavy handed in their handling of civilians. They have even gone to war with other clans (Seen a widowmaker lately?) over mistreatment of them.  I'll be looking for the exact quotes, but even Jihad through Late Dark Age products have cited the wolves hands-off approach to the lower castes as beneficial to them.

[Dragon Cat]

The Bears and Ravens are pretty settled without massive territorial moves so no huge amounts of new population

Falcons see the civilians are a necessary requirement


I think under Alaric the Wolves are trying to include their extended people but are largely abandoning their gains to take Terra

Hell’s Horses Sea Fox and whats left of the Cats are more unknown from what I've seen

[SteveRestless]

Clan Wolf had accelerated the invasion far beyond what the Lyrans could have accomplished on their own but the Commonwealth’s treatment of the Wolves resulted in resentment and anger. A lack of support for their forward military units and poor treatment of their civilian castes pushed the Wolves into a momentous decision.

Empahsis mine. the Lyran sandbagging and mistreatment of the Wolf lower-caste members was a major factor in the Wolves turning on and attacking the Lyrans. It's also never explicitly said, but a lot of the former lyran territory the Empire took likely resulted in the repatriation of a lot of those Lyran-held hostages.

the Wolf Empire has taken a different approach to integration. Instead of gradually merging into the local society as the Bears did, or simply dominating the natives by force of arms the way the Ravens have, they enlist the natives to serve among them. Using locals in vehicle Trinaries to fill out their battle losses, the Wolves have managed to maintain their numbers while convincing the conquered peoples that they actually have a stake in defending their homelands.

So, the Wolves are taking volunteers to join the clan, rather than forcing clan ways upon the people of their Empire.

But a curious thing is happening within the Wolf Empire. Lyran nationals, who by all rights should be foaming at the mouth to unyoke themselves from their conqueror, are instead far more placid about their new overlords than would be expected.

Does not seem to describe a brutalized, cracked-down-upon populace within the Empire.

Several books now, from that silly one with the disney princesses, to some of the recent products have indicated that the wolves have allowed Solaris to keep operating, again, not the iron authoritarian fist that the Falcons are known for. During the Jihad, the relatively lax approach to the lower castes is referenced as a reason the Society did not have a significant foohold in Clan Wolf.

[Jellico]

The old OZs have been occupied for 100 years. The Empire and expanded Falcon OZs, no so much.

So the old OZs are pretty much pacified now. The new Falcon conquests are barely controlled. Too much country, not enough occupiers. They can barely maintain communications. Not that the Lyrans can do much about it.

The Empire is the classic example of BattleTech sheeple. It is one thing to get a docile population through 10 years of good treatment. Another to get armies.

[Mecha82]

The Empire is the classic example of BattleTech sheeple. It is one thing to get a docile population through 10 years of good treatment. Another to get armies.

That's Clan Gary Stu for you.

[Auberan]

Well the Falcons were accepting freeborn natives into their Touman by the time the Ice Hellions came knocking, if I remember the short stories involving that time period correctly.

And I have to disagree with you Jellico, on the case of the whole sheeple thing. Collaborators and native military units serving occupiers are not something uncommon in major occupation cases, or that need time to really spring up.

[Jellico]

True. But it never occurs on that scale in BattleTech. Where are the traitor Davions occupying New Avalon? Even St Ives formed its own state rather than serve the Federated Suns.

[CJC070]

Citation Needed. The Wolves have never been particularly heavy handed in their handling of civilians. They have even gone to war with other clans (Seen a widowmaker lately?) over mistreatment of them.  I'll be looking for the exact quotes, but even Jihad through Late Dark Age products have cited the wolves hands-off approach to the lower castes as beneficial to them.

Era Report 3145 page 59.  Mainly talks about the Hells Horses and how they have one of the more successful integrations due to the “Ghost Bear” approach.  In the CHH territory the Inner Sphere and Clans see themselves as partners (almost a direct quote).

[Metallgewitter]

In regards to the Wolves: I think the treatment of their "occupied" populations changed when Vlad took over. The FM for 3085 describes the situation: on most planets the control of the Wolves beasically extends only to the big cities leaving the people outside alone (which was enough for the Wolves). When the Horses took over (FM 3145) they treated them with more velvet gloves which according to the writer, could cause unrest because the Wolves had them basically unter the boot. The Falcons did indeed incorporate their populations more (with very careful steps to adjust). A good example would be Operation Audacity: Adam Steiner strikes at Malibu but the population denies him being more or less content to live under the Falcons.And after the Jihad and Reaving Wars the Falcons beganto form militas from it's IS people, even outfitting them with old Mechs. Not to mention their Merchant Factor during Marthes reign was from the IS and not a Clan trueborn

[CJC070]

If you are talking about the Ferris Rebellion from the notes I read on sarna.net I have a feeling that it was a pirate group or dark caste that started it which ultimately created the Barrens.  A perfect place to create rogues, renegades, and rejects.

[Metallgewitter]

No I don't mean the Barrens. The FM 3085 already suggested that the Horses might abandon those worlds because they were not worth developing. The rebellion was first flashed out in the IE book when they rebelled and the Horses basically said "Ok. Bye!" Though from what I get is that the Bears and Horses used that situation to actually fortify their backyard with somewhat loyal "vasals" (the IE book suggests that they build some impressive fortifications on those "free worlds". Basically a roadbump should the Homeworld Clans ever invade again.

But I meant the takeover of the old Wolves occupation zones around Tamar. The Horses treat them with a way more lenient hand then the Wolves and this seems to be a rebellion in the making (at least according to Tucker Harvells point of view)

[SteveRestless]

Era Report 3145 page 59.  Mainly talks about the Hells Horses and how they have one of the more successful integrations due to the “Ghost Bear” approach.  In the CHH territory the Inner Sphere and Clans see themselves as partners (almost a direct quote).

Looks like it's actually page 60, was having a hard time finding it for a bit there.

Sure enough it says that, and I take issue with that sentence. I can think of plenty of instances of Falcon brutality, particularly under malvina, but I can't think of any incidents that merit the wolves being painted with the same brush as the falcons. the clan that mostly wants to ignore you if you're not part of its operations hardly deserves to be lumped in with a clan that liquidates its nearly its whole scientist caste just in case some of them were society.

[Zeruel]

oddly enough, I was just perusing a section of FM:3085 and read this bit:

Clan Hell’s Horses has been successfully negotiating the perils
of an occupied population. Consciously choosing a light-handed
approach, the Horses have benefitted from Clan Wolf’s earlier
heavy-handed approach. In effect they have lightened the load
on a population already used to Clan life, but they occupy former
Rasalhagian worlds in a time of resurgent Rasalhagian nationalism,
and have to face the same issues as all previous occupiers.

- FM:3085, p.111

[HuronWarrior]

I’m surprised Clan society hasn’t broken down after 100 years of a few million Clanners  living among billions of Spheroids. You’d think Uncle Chandy’s appliance and toy plot might have worked. But then again, for plot purposes of course they can’t really change much.

[Ruger]

I’m surprised Clan society hasn’t broken down after 100 years of a few million Clanners  living among billions of Spheroids. You’d think Uncle Chandy’s appliance and toy plot might have worked. But then again, for plot purposes of course they can’t really change much.

I would call Malvina’s take on the Mongol Doctrine to be a breakdown of Clan Society. Just not one we wanted to see.

The Rasalhague Dominion more closely fits the other direction. A blending of the cultures.

Ruger

[CJC070]

I would call Malvina’s take on the Mongol Doctrine to be a breakdown of Clan Society. Just not one we wanted to see.

The Rasalhague Dominion more closely fits the other direction. A blending of the cultures.

Ruger

Considering Hell’s Horses attitudes and their losses (especially Malvinas supporters) they may take similar measures only to rebuild their touman.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I would call Malvina’s take on the Mongol Doctrine to be a breakdown of Clan Society. Just not one we wanted to see.

Whereas others would consider it taking Clan society to its logical insane end.

[Guardian11]

This question is one I have contemplated off and on for a while in the context of Clan Wolf's move from their OZ to the Lyran Commonwealth. Just who and how many of the civilians in their OZ would be accounted, and account themselves, as members of Clan Wolf after nearly 100 years of occupation? How integrated were the civilians of IS and Clan origin in the OZs? Answers to this question would go a long way to answering questions about the scope and scale of the Wolf migration. If the entirety of the civilian population in the Wolf OZ was considered part of Clan Wolf then the migration had to evacuate a portion of billions of people. If only those of Clan descent and those that had chosen to join or were adopted are considered part of Clan Wolf then the Wolves may have been able to evacuate a large proportion of their Clan to the LC leaving behind only those non-Clan IS inhabitants on their OZ planets. There have been portions in books like the Field Manuals, Era Reports, and Bonfire of Worlds that support each interpretation, though they do seem to me to be leaning toward the more integrated interpretation.

Clan Wolf under the Crusaders weren't quite as nice to their civilians as the Wolves have been historically, however at least part of that may have been due to the losses, and pressure the Crusader Wolves were under almost continually from 3058-3085. As well as, Clan Wolf having to depend more and more on the Wolf OZ to support the Clan, especially after ~3071 and their ejection from the Homeworlds.

As to the lack of rebellions and the seeming support for the Wolf Empire. First, the Empire has promised peace and security in a time of fear and instability. A promise the Wolves have, so far mostly, been able to keep. IRL people have been willing to give up a lot for the promise of security. Second, look at the alternatives the people have tochoose from in lieu of the Wolf Empire; the Jade Falcons, Lyran Commonwealth, Free Worlds League, and Republic of the Sphere. The Wolf Empire is a haven of peace and prosperity compared to all the others. Fear of Falcon war crimes as much as anything is probably keeping most of the people cooperating with the Wolf Empire. The LC and RotS have both shown themselves to be unable to deal with the current Dark Age situation and have been unable to defend their worlds and citizens. The FWL is inherently unstable and its current incarnation is still young and unproven. Also, Alaric Ward's ancestry, as well as, the Lyran's ill-handling/betrayal of the Wolves is likely played up in Wolf propaganda in the Empire to get the people to support the Wolves. Finally, there are issues with the volunteer Galaxies, Mu being the most prominent case, being merely unreliable at best, and near mutinous at worst. Any Wolf officer that tries to keep the unit in line quickly winds up missing or dead.

[CJC070]

There has been very little said either way.  I would point out that I have found no mention of massive displacements in the Wolf Empire and the CHH claiming a lot of empty land after the Wolfs departure.  Considering the Ghost Bears are the only ones who have actually tried a full integration and the challenges they faced says that the Wolves only took what they could carry and nothing else. 

Right now the Wolf Empire does seem stable but with the Lyrans planning coups in Falcon territory and the Capellans knocking on Terras door the balance of power might change only time will tell.