Hibernaculum: (Vacation) Home of Clan Star Adder

[Wotan]

I prefer the 3rd. I have to see the new one in my hands to argue on this.
The 2nd was a bit fragil, the 1st ... i don't speak of the 1st...

[Gaiiten]

I prefer the 3rd. I have to see the new one in my hands to argue on this.
The 2nd was a bit fragil, the 1st ... i don't speak of the 1st...

This fragility of the 2nd is what I especially like. It gives the idea of agility to an Assault-class Mech. And due to this smaller silhouette it will be harder to get hit thant the more massive form.

[Gaiiten]

During the Wars of Reaving there was an alliance between both Clans, including a future deal that both Clans might cooperate whne the invasion might continue.

Assumed, there will be a war between the Hell´s Horses and the ilClan Wolves (nuSLDF included), would the Hell`s Horses call for help from the Star Adders?
Could this be the opportunity to get the Home Clans back into the story?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Ooh. Ooh! Interesting thought. What a tantalizing possibility!

IIRC, the agreement was that when the Homeworlds invaded, the Adders wouldn't go through the HHOZ, so that's not actually what I'd call an alliance, at least no more than the 'alliance' the Hellions and Horses had when they invaded the Falcons. Politically that could also be very dangerous for the Adders, champions of the Bastion movement, shown to have secret dealings with a Tainted, Abjured Clan, I'm sure they'd catch all kinds of heat at home for that revelation if it ever came out.

It also seems like we are a good, long while before the Wolves and the Horses get a chance to fight, so I'm also hoping there is some sort of further developments with this aspect of the story before then.

[CJC070]

Although it could work that the Homeworld Clans are still in secret contact with the CHH I would personally want some sourcebooks or stories to hint towards that relationship.  We may see a conflict with the CHh and the CW both need to deal with internal and external threats to the respected territory before going to war.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

Isn't CHH gearing up for some Periphery action ?

[Alan Grant]

The writers have basically already said that they don't want an Operation Revival 2.0 "aka the Homeworld Clans are invading the Inner Sphere". They'd rather come up with something new or different and they don't know what that will be. Until they come up with something they REALLY like, we probably won't hear from the Homeworld Clans.

I can't remember where this info popped up now but it wasn't that long ago. If anyone can recall the interview/conversation and its source?

I probably should keep a link to that handy...

[Crimson Dynamo]

It was from an interview on Sarna, which I first heard about in this very thread...

At sarna.net there is an interesting long interview with Ray Arrastia and Aaron Cahall (Line Developer and Assistant Line Developer).
https://www.sarna.net/news/battletech-in-2024-an-interview-with-line-developer-ray-arrastia-assistant-line-developer-aaron-cahall/

Among some other info, they were asked about the Home Clans and they answered

[CJC070]

Isn't CHH gearing up for some Periphery action ?

From what I got from Tamar Rising there is movement from the Periphery but the CHH are more concerned about Alaric and his allies.  Thanks to the blackout and lack of a Watch outside their territory they don’t know of his rejection of the Ghost Bears and the Capellan build up.

[tassa_kay]

From what I got from Tamar Rising there is movement from the Periphery but the CHH are more concerned about Alaric and his allies.  Thanks to the blackout and lack of a Watch outside their territory they don’t know of his rejection of the Ghost Bears and the Capellan build up.

Do we know the Horses' Watch doesn't extend outside of their territory? That would seem to be kind of silly, especially given that the Blackout would give every faction even more of a reason to keep an eye on their neighbors. And even with the Blackout, I highly doubt that the Horses are completely unaware of the Bears' internal issues, given how widespread they were throughout the Dominion.

As far as Alaric goes, the end of the Horses novel indicates that while they're still not planning to bend the knee to Alaric, they're at least trying to be a little more diplomatic now that Gottfried Amirault is gone and have no intention to start a conflict there. On top of that, the Wolves clearly have bigger fish to fry than the Horses right now anyway, and the Horses have more immediate concerns closer to home (the factions in the Hinterlands, the goings on in the Barrens, etc).

The Horses calling in the Home Clans seems like a complete reach at this point. Whatever "alliance" they had with the Adders (and I wouldn't even have called it that, really), if it hadn't already been severed by the WoR and the Horses being Abjured by the Home Clans, is clearly decades and decades past its shelf life by now. And I would certainly hope that the Horses, given their experiences with Malvina and the fact that the Home Clans are just as happy now to employ orbital bombardment and the like, wouldn't be stupid enough to invite that kind of trouble to their doorstep again.

[Gaiiten]

If their conflict with Alaric is going to be bad for them (what I think is quite an educated guess) and if they stand with their back to the wall after losing much of their touman and worlds, they might be as desparate as trying to call for help. Even for help from the Clan Home Worlds.

The Horses are described as the most conservative Clan in the Inner Sphere (now where the Jade Falcons have changed so dramatically). This might get them support/sympathy for their cause from the Home Clans.

And do not forget, Abjured Clanners might get adopted again into. Why not whole Clans, their is not law/rule against.

[tassa_kay]

If their conflict with Alaric is going to be bad for them (what I think is quite an educated guess) and if they stand with their back to the wall after losing much of their touman and worlds, they might be as desparate as trying to call for help. Even for help from the Clan Home Worlds.

Again, there's absolutely no reason to think that any of this is true. The Horses aren't trying to pursue a conflict with the Wolves per the end of the Horses' novel, Alaric certainly has more immediate concerns right now (the Capellans), and there's just no logical reason why the Horses would reach out to the Home Clans. Wishful thinking at best.

The Horses are described as the most conservative Clan in the Inner Sphere (now where the Jade Falcons have changed so dramatically). This might get them support/sympathy for their cause from the Home Clans.

No they aren't. The Horses are actually described as quite liberal. If I had to guess the most conservative Spheroid Clan, I'd say the Bears or Wolves or even the Ravens before the Horses.

[CJC070]

Do we know the Horses' Watch doesn't extend outside of their territory? That would seem to be kind of silly, especially given that the Blackout would give every faction even more of a reason to keep an eye on their neighbors. And even with the Blackout, I highly doubt that the Horses are completely unaware of the Bears' internal issues, given how widespread they were throughout the Dominion.

My source is Elements of Treason: Honor where by 3150 they didn’t even know Malvina had packed up and moved to Terra.  After the Golden Ordun was dissolved the Clan Hells Horses seem to have directed their Watch resources to within due to their Khans paranoia.  They may have heard about the Dominion Civil War but they may not know the root cause. 

[Gaiiten]

Again, there's absolutely no reason to think that any of this is true. The Horses aren't trying to pursue a conflict with the Wolves per the end of the Horses' novel, Alaric certainly has more immediate concerns right now (the Capellans), and there's just no logical reason why the Horses would reach out to the Home Clans. Wishful thinking at best.

As I wrote above, it is a Might-Be-scenario, less be "Wishful-Thinking".

Why I see a conflict between Wolves and Horses coming? Because Alaric Ward would never accept anything on equal footing with himself and his Wolves. Everybodey must submit. No "First among Equals", but only "First".
The Horses did resist him on Terra, something he will never forget.
Further he will never forget that the Horses invaded the Wolf Occupation Zone during the WoR and captured many star systems of the. They killed Vlad Ward.

Making an example of the Horses will strenghten the ilClan standing among the other Clans.

So what if this might happen and the Horses are losing the war with grevious losses, getting close to be annihilated? But they might remember of this "Auld Alliance", do you not think they might give a try?

No they aren't. The Horses are actually described as quite liberal. If I had to guess the most conservative Spheroid Clan, I'd say the Bears or Wolves or even the Ravens before the Horses.

Given the Horses novel and Without Question they are described as be ing the most conservative Clan in the Inner Sphere.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Aren't Horses a bit far away physically to be of concern to Wolves for at least a decade?

As for conservativism Horses are very liberal in terms of ruling the planets in their domain but in terms of internal Clan life they would be quite conservative precisely because of this clean separation

[Metallgewitter]

Aren't Horses a bit far away physically to be of concern to Wolves for at least a decade?

As for conservativism Horses are very liberal in terms of ruling the planets in their domain but in terms of internal Clan life they would be quite conservative precisely because of this clean separation

The difference is though that the Horses have for one an intact realm and a touman that hasn't been bled dry. The Wolves sit on Terra while their Empire is getting ripped to shreds (my assumption but whatever defenses Othar build he lost a good portion to Wolf's Dragoons already and if I have the timeline correct right after Zeta sacked Gienah the League declared war). Additionally the shield around Terra (the wall) should be gone at this point and Alaric will have to strike out lest he will be declared unfit to rule. In this case Stone was right he has become Ilkhan but now he has to act like one.

[tassa_kay]

As I wrote above, it is a Might-Be-scenario, less be "Wishful-Thinking".

It's absolutely wishful thinking at this point, as we know that TPTB have no current plans for the Home Clans for the foreseeable future. T

Why I see a conflict between Wolves and Horses coming? Because Alaric Ward would never accept anything on equal footing with himself and his Wolves. Everybodey must submit. No "First among Equals", but only "First".
The Horses did resist him on Terra, something he will never forget.

Again, Alaric has a laundry list of much more immediate concerns, and the Horses certainly aren't on that list. We've seen no indication that he intends to punish them, and the Horses themselves have made it clear that they also don't particularly want to pursue a conflict with Alaric. If anything, Alaric was incredibly dismissive of them and seemed more than content to ignore them into oblivion instead of validating them.

Further he will never forget that the Horses invaded the Wolf Occupation Zone during the WoR and captured many star systems of the. They killed Vlad Ward.

We haven't seen any indication that the Wolves are still harboring a grudge over those events this many decades later. Not to say that they aren't, of course, because we all know how factions in BattleTech are about holding grudges, LOL.

Making an example of the Horses will strenghten the ilClan standing among the other Clans.

It will be many years before Alaric is even remotely in a position to do something about the Horses.

So what if this might happen and the Horses are losing the war with grevious losses, getting close to be annihilated? But they might remember of this "Auld Alliance", do you not think they might give a try?

Not really, no. I don't see the Horses going to an enemy to try to fight off another enemy.

Given the Horses novel and Without Question they are described as be ing the most conservative Clan in the Inner Sphere.

I disagree with that assessment. The Horses are certainly not a conservative Clan by any stretch. They have healthy inter-caste cooperation (despite the Horses novel's blatant mischaracterization of things, the Horses have always had this going for them and it was shown as recently as "A Rending of Falcons"), are willing to deal with Inner Sphere powers on a mercantile level, are willing to embrace new technologies (QuadVees, TankWarriors, the continued use of ProtoMechs, etc.)... I just don't think that's an applicable term for the Horses.

[Gaiiten]

It's absolutely wishful thinking at this point, as we know that TPTB have no current plans for the Home Clans for the foreseeable future. T

Again, Alaric has a laundry list of much more immediate concerns, and the Horses certainly aren't on that list. We've seen no indication that he intends to punish them, and the Horses themselves have made it clear that they also don't particularly want to pursue a conflict with Alaric. If anything, Alaric was incredibly dismissive of them and seemed more than content to ignore them into oblivion instead of validating them.

We haven't seen any indication that the Wolves are still harboring a grudge over those events this many decades later. Not to say that they aren't, of course, because we all know how factions in BattleTech are about holding grudges, LOL.

It will be many years before Alaric is even remotely in a position to do something about the Horses.

Exactly this. Think of years, not of days or months. But IMO a there is no avoiding of a conflict etween both Clans possible.

Not really, no. I don't see the Horses going to an enemy to try to fight off another enemy.

Maybe, the enemy of my enemy is my ally?

However, I have got it. You do not think so.

I disagree with that assessment. The Horses are certainly not a conservative Clan by any stretch. They have healthy inter-caste cooperation (despite the Horses novel's blatant mischaracterization of things, the Horses have always had this going for them and it was shown as recently as "A Rending of Falcons"), are willing to deal with Inner Sphere powers on a mercantile level, are willing to embrace new technologies (QuadVees, TankWarriors, the continued use of ProtoMechs, etc.)... I just don't think that's an applicable term for the Horses.

All other Clans (even now the Falcons) have intertwined with the Spheroids people. Some more, some less.
The Horses have not done this.
This was meant with being the most conservative IS Clan. As it is described in the books.

[rebs]

Updated definition for new times.  I can see that argument.

The Horses may not be as exposed to the Great Houses and IS citizens as the rest of the Clans, but they also couldn't stay in the Home Worlds.  Their interpretation of Clan Doctrine as handed down from the founders always made them stand out, and if they stayed there they would have taken a severe beating for nothing gained.

The Horses know they are not exactly conservative, I'd say.  But perhaps by a standard that pertains to the 3150's, they are conservative.  We could put the Bears there too.  The Bears only have contact with the Draconis Combine, and they are certainly in no rush to embrace the ways of Kurita. In that way they would certainly be on the conservative side. 

But as far as "pure" or "not tainted", the Bears are as screwed as the Wolves, Falcons, and everyone else.  So we may have to examine things closer, as well as examine what markers we are using label conservative/liberal clans

[Gaiiten]

Updated definition for new times.  I can see that argument.

The Horses may not be as exposed to the Great Houses and IS citizens as the rest of the Clans, but they also couldn't stay in the Home Worlds.  Their interpretation of Clan Doctrine as handed down from the founders always made them stand out, and if they stayed there they would have taken a severe beating for nothing gained.

The Horses know they are not exactly conservative, I'd say.  But perhaps by a standard that pertains to the 3150's, they are conservative.  We could put the Bears there too.  The Bears only have contact with the Draconis Combine, and they are certainly in no rush to embrace the ways of Kurita. In that way they would certainly be on the conservative side. 

But as far as "pure" or "not tainted", the Bears are as screwed as the Wolves, Falcons, and everyone else.  So we may have to examine things closer, as well as examine what markers we are using label conservative/liberal clans

Affirmative.
And this wouöd make the Horses less "Taintend" than the other Clans in the eyes of the Home Clans (if the Home Clans still follow this (stupid) ideology).

[rebs]

Yes.  Because "tainted" is now an outdated term too, it was useful to some in its time, but that time is gone.  Besides, any faction or person that the Clans in power don't like are called tainted. 

The Horses still have a Star Adder connection that is unresolved and no one else in the IS even realizes it.  LOTS of potential there for fun in so many ways.

[Metallgewitter]

How do the Horses still have an Adder connection? the adopted warriors they took during the brief Adder-Horses-Burrok clash should all be dead by now. Maybe parts of their genes still exist but that would be it. Or do you think they still have a line to the homeworlds? That would make the Adders "tainted"

[tassa_kay]

There’s nothing “unresolved” about the Horse/Adder connection. They literally concluded their business and went their separate ways during the course of WoR, with not even a hint or implication of a continued connection.

[Gaiiten]

Both Clans were never serious adverseries, they were even allies in the WoR, the Star Adders respected the Horses even so much that the created a new Clan from those Horses they had absorbed before.

So IMHO the connection is disrupted at the moment, but it is quite possibe to establish a connection again when contacts might be made again.

[Metallgewitter]

Considering that the Homeworlds have abjurred all the Is clans I think the only thing they will exchange in the future is a whole lot of lead and laser blasts. Unless of course some cooler heads prevail and go "yeah that taint stuff was a whole lot of surat shit"

[rebs]

Put it this way.

I totally believe that the Wolves, Falcons, Bears, Ravens, and Sea Foxes have severed all ties with the Home Clans.

I doubt the Horses have cut all of them.  Maybe 99% of them.  But not all. 

[Gaiiten]

Put it this way.

I totally believe that the Wolves, Falcons, Bears, Ravens, and Sea Foxes have severed all ties with the Home Clans.

I doubt the Horses have cut all of them.  Maybe 99% of them.  But not all.

And never forget the famous pragmatism of the Star Adders, they will do what they will have to do to be successful.

[rebs]

The Star Adders would absolutely love 50 year reports or something long-gameish like that.  Nice detailed ones gathered by an intel operation that's been active since the end of the Word of Blake Jihad...     

The Horses have done masterfully at this without raising suspicion.  (I can dream right?)

And I could see the Star Adders saying "The Horses chose to leave.  They were not ran like the Jade Falcons, or kicked in the arse and tripped on their way out the door like the Snow Ravens".  And welcome them as true Clan free of Abjuration since it was all a misunderstanding.  And the rest of the Home Clans would nod and say "this is sound" or make other agreement noises.   

[Wotan]

And never forget the famous pragmatism of the Star Adders, they will do what they will have to do to be successful.

Thats the point and the first answer that we need. What are their goals? What do they want to succeed? I doubt that they really want to try to rebuild the old Star League in the Inner Sphere.
They should have realized that this goal cannot be achieved. So why not found a whole new civilization? But then perhaps with another relocation so that nobody knows where to find them? Because the fear of an attack from IS is likely to remain.
But then again what is the story to be told? And let's be honest, Battletech is all about conflict and combat.

[Gaiiten]

Thats the point and the first answer that we need. What are their goals? What do they want to succeed? I doubt that they really want to try to rebuild the old Star League in the Inner Sphere.
They should have realized that this goal cannot be achieved. So why not found a whole new civilization? But then perhaps with another relocation so that nobody knows where to find them? Because the fear of an attack from IS is likely to remain.
But then again what is the story to be told? And let's be honest, Battletech is all about conflict and combat.

What do the Star Adders want?
Being a dominant and independent force to be reckoned with.
Never bent the knees before Alaric and the Wolves.
Being the one who defines what it means to be Clan.