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Author Topic: The Capellans are not evil  (Read 86584 times)

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #240 on: 15 July 2011, 00:26:52 »
If you need to be bribed into taking something it must not be worth much on it's own.


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Lore

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #241 on: 15 July 2011, 00:40:49 »
What good is citizenship if there are no state-given benefits for being one?

Isn't that what the other Successor States are trying to prove?
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HikageMaru

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #242 on: 15 July 2011, 01:09:03 »
the internal conflict between heritage and progress

I wonder what side the author was on....

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #243 on: 15 July 2011, 01:22:15 »
To be fair, Republic life in 3100-3120 was pretty posh by and large.


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Youngblood

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #244 on: 15 July 2011, 02:17:35 »
If you need to be bribed into taking something it must not be worth much on it's own.

A bribe?  OHHHH, so THAT's what you call friendship in the Commonwealth! ;)

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #245 on: 15 July 2011, 02:38:16 »
Yes, when you give people things to hang out with you, that's not friendship. It's usually prostitution which, given the quality of your women, I would not recommend availing yourself of in the CapCon.


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Youngblood

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #246 on: 15 July 2011, 04:08:32 »
Yes, when you give people things to hang out with you, that's not friendship. It's usually prostitution which, given the quality of your women, I would not recommend availing yourself of in the CapCon.

Benefits aren't the only thing keeping people aligned to a nation, however.  We as fans obviously have a great selection of choices we can intelligently make, but people in-universe are quite emotionally tied down by history and cultural doctrine, at all levels of the so-called "societies" they live in.  And from my experience, large numbers of people?  Not very rational.  But you can't blame people.  Their flock-following doesn't deserve a label of "evil".
« Last Edit: 15 July 2011, 04:10:43 by Youngblood »

MadCapellan

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #247 on: 15 July 2011, 07:17:11 »
If you need to be bribed into taking something it must not be worth much on it's own.

That's "earned", not "bribed".  Capellan Citizenship isn't something you are just handed when your mother craps you out.  You earn it by helping your fellow man.  The earnings of Capellan Citizens, including their worlds, their benefits, and their rights, are the most sacred thing a Janshi of the CCAF defends. 

Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #248 on: 15 July 2011, 09:04:05 »
That's "earned", not "bribed".  Capellan Citizenship isn't something you are just handed when your mother craps you out.  You earn it by helping your fellow man.

As I understand it, you don't earn it by helping your fellow man.

You earn it by helping your fellow Capellan.

Rather important distinction there.

It's not about helping humanity. It's about helping the Capellan state. Of course, this is because Capellan state ideology is that the state is to be identified with the 'Greater Humanity', via the Korvin Doctrine, but that just comes down to the Confederation being crazy and, contra the title of the topic, rather towards the evil end of the scale.

MadCapellan

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #249 on: 15 July 2011, 11:00:20 »
As I understand it, you don't earn it by helping your fellow man.

You earn it by helping your fellow Capellan.

Rather important distinction there.

It's not about helping humanity. It's about helping the Capellan state

The Capellan State is its Citizens are humanity.  Anyone can be a Capellan.  What the State asks is the question "Will you contribute to your community?"  Citizens are those that answer "yes".  The activities of a person which affect other communities are of no meaning to the community they inhabit unless it benefits them.  Point in fact, I would question the loyalty, not to mention the sanity, of an individual which would provide a service for another community that they would not provide their own.

BlazingSky

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #250 on: 15 July 2011, 11:15:24 »
The Capellan State is its Citizens are humanity.  Anyone can be a Capellan.  What the State asks is the question "Will you contribute to your community?"  Citizens are those that answer "yes".  The activities of a person which affect other communities are of no meaning to the community they inhabit unless it benefits them.  Point in fact, I would question the loyalty, not to mention the sanity, of an individual which would provide a service for another community that they would not provide their own.

Does part of joining the Land of Crazy Communist Stereotypes include a full frontal lobotomy? Because I like my lobes intact thanks.
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Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #251 on: 15 July 2011, 11:56:08 »
Point in fact, I would question the loyalty, not to mention the sanity, of an individual which would provide a service for another community that they would not provide their own.

This is precisely the point.

Capellan citizenship, whatever else it's about, isn't about service to humanity. The Confederation is not for the good of humanity. Any claim to the contrary is either mistaken or an outright lie. Capellan citizenship is about service to the Capellan people. Here's the thing, though: the Capellan people are defined by the Capellan state. Hence why it is able to confer citizenship and take citizenship away, according to its own arbitrary criteria.

The attempted ethical justification for the Capellan state, depsite the Korvin Doctrine's pretensions of universalism, is actually a rather tribal one. Talk about service to humanity is a smokescreen, I would argue. Citizenship is conferred by the Capellan state, based on one's service to the Capellan state. And I seem to recall a certain famous Liao once saying "I own the state."

To wit:

The Capellan Confederation is a petty despotism.

Or, if I were feeling charitable, I'd say that the point of the Capellan citizenship system is to inculcate the people of the Confederation with an intense patriotic attachment to that same Confederation; to promote the idea of Capellan citizens as a 'higher people'; to make it easier to dehumanise people of other states; and, above all, to create the state as the supreme value-centre for the Capellan people. The aim is to make the Capellan state the object of ultimate loyalty and fidelity for the people who happen to live in it.

But I don't feel particularly charitable to the Capellans today.  :P

YingJanshi

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #252 on: 15 July 2011, 12:22:47 »
  The interesting thing is that they are not really any differant the the other four great houses. They all have their secret police, they all come down to how nice your ruling planetary noble is. The Confederation is just open about who and what they are. Their are no democratic states in BattleTech. Planets yes, but nations no.
  And just as a side note, out of the five houses, who has been the most aggressive since the fall of the Star League (Davionistas I looking at you)? Who started the Fourth war and the War of 3039? And while old Maxie did try to put a double on the FedSuns throne (hmm, wonder what the universe would look like if he had succeeded? Sounds like a good AU), Hanse tried to do the same thing with Joshua Marik (I mean, why else would he put the op in place? "Thomas Marik" wouldn't have gone to war or cut off war material just because Joshua died from his illness.) 

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MadCapellan

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #253 on: 15 July 2011, 12:57:57 »
Capellan citizenship, whatever else it's about, isn't about service to humanity. The Confederation is not for the good of humanity. Any claim to the contrary is either mistaken or an outright lie. Capellan citizenship is about service to the Capellan people.

The purpose of the State is to serve, protect and provide for its Citizens.  A State which places a greater emphasis on the well-being of foreigners is a meddlesome, interventionist State at best, or a State masking its imperialist ideals at worst.  If Crucians want to be free to live amongst their dirty rocks and smelly hovels spouting whatever they like, that is not a concern of or a problem for the Capellan State.  The Capellan State doesn't make war with House Davion to insist on actually educating, feeding and medicating their subjects, and we expect our neighbors to respect our system similarly.

You, my friend, have provided no evidence of Capellan despotry.  On the contrary, you have simply indicated that the Capellan Confederation does not share the Federated Suns arrogant belief that they know what's best for everyone and should force their ideals on them at gunpoint.  Thank you!  You are correct: The Capellan Confederation does NOT concern itself with the well being of foreigners, precisely because it isn't any of our business.  The lives of foreigners are for their govenments to decide, not us.

Youngblood

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #254 on: 15 July 2011, 13:10:23 »
Does part of joining the Land of Crazy Communist Stereotypes include a full frontal lobotomy? Because I like my lobes intact thanks.

What Land of Crazy Communist Stereotypes?  I'm not sure whether you're aiming to make an exaggerated comparison with no grounding, or if you're just trolling.  Really, I'd love to know.

In communism the easiest way to live is to leech off of others.  Leeching off of others in the Confederation gets you kicked into the Servitor caste.  Kind of a nice, hard-line way of enforcing the goodness and community in man, I would say.

The Capellan Confederation is a petty despotism.

So is every other Successor State.  Why is it still around (aside from the authors)?  Because like in every other Successor State, the better Davions, Mariks, Kuritas, Steiners, and Liaos build up a cult of personality that the nation rides on through the ages.  But the thing is, the people in the Confederation still come through in terms of getting their lives on track.  Romano Liao wouldn't have been assassinated if not for the help of people who felt the Confederation had gone too far in being controlled by one woman.  Whether or not you think a nation's rules are restrictive or backwards or not, people in the Confederation can tell the difference between what is evil and what is NECESSARY evil.  They are not sheep.

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Or, if I were feeling charitable, I'd say that the point of the Capellan citizenship system is to inculcate the people of the Confederation with an intense patriotic attachment to that same Confederation; to promote the idea of Capellan citizens as a 'higher people'; to make it easier to dehumanise people of other states; and, above all, to create the state as the supreme value-centre for the Capellan people. The aim is to make the Capellan state the object of ultimate loyalty and fidelity for the people who happen to live in it.

Irrelevant to the discussion of evil.  I could point out (in PMs, since otherwise I'd be breaking Rule #4) two real-world examples of EXACTLY what you're talking about, one often cast in a positive light, and one DEFINITELY cast in a negative light.

People in a nation can be "deceived", as you would have it, by entertainment in culture, social programs, WHATEVER.  The thing is, that's what makes them human.  Those kinds of things are the kind of programming people receive to avoid becoming socially inept children locked in closets with piles of hay for toilets.  If the human mind didn't categorize things into a "Taboo No-No" category, people wouldn't be able to filter (and subsequently not do) things they know would hurt themselves or others...as in, the tools people need in order to function as a community.

Capellan citizenship is a grand experiment in combining the structure and rationality of platonic community with the prestige and pride of powerful Asian empires.  You'll never figure Capellans out unless you go beyond the fact that BattleTech just happened to be created in a year with the same title as 1984.

Lord Harlock

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #255 on: 15 July 2011, 13:19:49 »
  The interesting thing is that they are not really any differant the the other four great houses. They all have their secret police, they all come down to how nice your ruling planetary noble is. The Confederation is just open about who and what they are. Their are no democratic states in BattleTech. Planets yes, but nations no.
  And just as a side note, out of the five houses, who has been the most aggressive since the fall of the Star League (Davionistas I looking at you)? Who started the Fourth war and the War of 3039? And while old Maxie did try to put a double on the FedSuns throne (hmm, wonder what the universe would look like if he had succeeded? Sounds like a good AU), Hanse tried to do the same thing with Joshua Marik (I mean, why else would he put the op in place? "Thomas Marik" wouldn't have gone to war or cut off war material just because Joshua died from his illness.) 


Ah, the Combine started the First and Third. The Second Succession kind of just began when raids began to get heavier thanks in part to ROM's Operation Divine Intervention. In fact, Comstar probably has the blame for starting the Second Succession War due to getting an aging and mentally incapacitated Jinjro Kurita angry and getting the FWL into the war.

State Police? MIIO isn't state police who take enemies of the states and shoots them to create fear of the state in its citizens. If they did that, Gogh Bukowski University on New Avalon would have been a bloody hole of dead hippies years ago considering it's openly Anti-Davion, Anti-Principality, Anti-Establishment, and Pro-Anything Art related. Plus, they like to go demonstrate just for fun. Honestly, I really can't recall a Capellan equivalent to Gogh-Bukowski University on Sian. There is no Konradd College either which is a shame: there needs to be more subtle references to A Canticle for Leibowitz in science fiction in general. 

In the Capellan Confederation or Draconis Combine, there are no real avenues to arguing with the state. As MadCap has said of the Capellan Confederation, your arguments against the state are only heard if the State finds merit in them to improve the state. In the FWL, LC, and FS, there are avenues for meeting, demonstrations, and even colleges where the whole point is basically sticking it to the man. Mind you, I doubt that House Davion is funding Gogh-Bukowski, and I know for sure that Konradd College is privately funded by the Church. And the only reason that I mention it is that Konradd is that I want more references to A Canticle for Leibowitz, and I want to stress that point. However MIIO only really cares to do any work against rival political movements in the Suns when it goes and starts killing others which in the Suns is quite easy since the weapon laws are quite liberal, plotting open rebellion, or committing criminal crimes. DMI 6 is used as a weapon of war against foreign entities. 

Then again where are the different political parties in the Capellan Confederation? Organizations like the National Liberal Party, Abacus Party, Grand Union Party, Sword & Shield Party, Fox Party, Kestune Party, Sarna Party (Sarna People's Front), and of course the every detestable Citizens for Davion Purity(Secretly a Front for Warrior Cabals). Sure, the parties are mostly confined to the Suns' nearly irrelevant High Council and planetary governments, but they still exist.

So where can a servitor go to discuss his complaints with Sun-Tzu without getting a boot to the head?

Youngblood

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #256 on: 15 July 2011, 13:28:42 »
So where can a servitor go to discuss his complaints with Sun-Tzu without getting a boot to the head?

Why should a servitor get that right?  He hasn't proven that he should have a say yet.  Yes, you have to DO SOMETHING to prove yourself to be considered human.  And DOING SOMETHING is what keeps one from loafing on a couch asking why everything isn't about him.  That isn't living.  Living is not breathing.  It is doing.

I highly regard your presentation of evidence in your arguments, Lord Harlock, but they all seem to be based in the belief that anything that isn't borne out of the possibilities of Locke-inspired Western Democracy is backwards and unnecessary.  It's not like people can't come up with better ideas without it.  In fact, I kind of find arguments taken from that perspective somewhat insulting (not your fault).
« Last Edit: 15 July 2011, 13:34:43 by Youngblood »

Mecha-Anchovy

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #257 on: 15 July 2011, 13:51:14 »
And just as a side note, out of the five houses, who has been the most aggressive since the fall of the Star League (Davionistas I looking at you)?

Kurita.

Really, is there even the slightest question here?

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Who started the Fourth war and the War of 3039?

No comment on the latter, but it seems to me that trying to assassinate the leader of a foreign nation and replace him with a puppet body double constitutes an act of war.

Quote from: MadCapellan
The purpose of the State is to serve, protect and provide for its Citizens.

I do not recall talking about the purpose of the state. I was talking about the idea of service to humanity.

I would say that you are actually right, to an extent. A state is supposed to serve its citizens. That's why we have them, and why states aren't ultimate causes.

The issue with the Capellan state here is that it's redefined 'citizen' into a state-granted privilege. That is: the purpose of the Capellan state is to serve the people that the Capellan state has arbitrarily selected as worthy of serving the Capellan state.

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You, my friend, have provided no evidence of Capellan despotry.  On the contrary, you have simply indicated that the Capellan Confederation does not share the Federated Suns arrogant belief that they know what's best for everyone and should force their ideals on them at gunpoint

Wait, who brought the Federated Suns into this?

At any rate. I am comfortable referring to the Confederation as despotic because the purpose of the Confederation, it seems to me, is to serve the ambition of the Liao family. (I am specifically not talking about any other successor state here. Tu quoque arguments will be dismissed.)

Quote from: Youngblood
So is every other Successor State.

We are not talking about the other successor states. We are talking about the Capellan Confederation.

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Irrelevant to the discussion of evil.  I could point out (in PMs, since otherwise I'd be breaking Rule #4) two real-world examples of EXACTLY what you're talking about, one often cast in a positive light, and one DEFINITELY cast in a negative light.

The point is that the apparatus of the Capellan state, I would argue, is designed to encourage the individuals within that state to make the state itself - i.e. the tools of government, and ultimately the Liao family - the ultimate object of devotion.

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Capellan citizenship is a grand experiment in combining the structure and rationality of platonic community with the prestige and pride of powerful Asian empires.  You'll never figure Capellans out unless you go beyond the fact that BattleTech just happened to be created in a year with the same title as 1984.

Oh, the Capellan state ideology is very interesting. I don't deny that.

I think it is also extraordinarily ethically questionable, and, to be frank, morally repugnant, but to my mind that's good in a fictional setting. That is what makes the Capellans much better villains than the Kuritas. They're both evil, but the Capellans are evil with an ideology.

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Why should a servitor get that right?  He hasn't proven that he should have a say yet.

This, I should point out, is the overall problem.

You suggest that the state exists in order to serve its citizens; yet at the same time you allow the state to set arbitrary criteria that a person must meet before he or she is a citizen.

(Apologies for the short remarks. I may go a bit more in-depth tomorrow.)

Youngblood

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #258 on: 15 July 2011, 14:13:11 »
We are not talking about the other successor states. We are talking about the Capellan Confederation.

I apologize, it's just that when I hear other people say that line, they're denouncing the Confederation as the ONLY nation that is such, and doesn't deserve to exist.  Knee-jerk reaction.

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The point is that the apparatus of the Capellan state, I would argue, is designed to encourage the individuals within that state to make the state itself - i.e. the tools of government, and ultimately the Liao family - the ultimate object of devotion.

Okay, but how do you find that ethically and morally undesirable?

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This, I should point out, is the overall problem.

You suggest that the state exists in order to serve its citizens; yet at the same time you allow the state to set arbitrary criteria that a person must meet before he or she is a citizen.

The criteria are set because the Confederation does not have NEARLY enough resources to give the benefits it does to every human in the Inner Sphere.  And the rules aren't as arbitrary as you might think, since there have to have been people in the Confederation who have calculated allocations and tried many distribution plans over the centuries.  And it's not like the conditions for becoming a Citizen haven't changed for the better, either.  Reform happens in any government, no matter how oppressive or whatever.  There's no point in comparing social advancements between governments necessitated out of completely different cultures.
« Last Edit: 15 July 2011, 14:14:53 by Youngblood »

Lord Harlock

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #259 on: 15 July 2011, 14:48:16 »
Why should a servitor get that right?  He hasn't proven that he should have a say yet.  Yes, you have to DO SOMETHING to prove yourself to be considered human.  And DOING SOMETHING is what keeps one from loafing on a couch asking why everything isn't about him.  That isn't living.  Living is not breathing.  It is doing.

I highly regard your presentation of evidence in your arguments, Lord Harlock, but they all seem to be based in the belief that anything that isn't borne out of the possibilities of Locke-inspired Western Democracy is backwards and unnecessary.  It's not like people can't come up with better ideas without it.  In fact, I kind of find arguments taken from that perspective somewhat insulting (not your fault).

And just remember from my point of view, it is evil to deprive a loser and a loaf his due as a human. ;) Do I believe in Locke's Theories of Natural Rights? Yeah, I also take it a little to close to heart. So naturally, I'm more inclined to be a Suns lover. Now does that make it a Western Democracy argument? Not really. Now so far in history, natural rights have existed as really apart of the American Republic Experiment. However, natural rights are just a belief that these rights go beyond any law making bodies ability to regulate or contain. It really doesn't need a democratically elected legislature to guarantee it since they are beyond such notions and exist usually thanks to divine will or because of nature. All it needs is a government to say that it is beyond its scope be it monarch or timocratically created body of wrestlers who decide things in the wrestling ring.

Honestly if I want democratic rights, I'd be a Free Worlds League kind of fan. I've always been more for the natural rights espoused in the Six Liberties rather than wee I get a vote. Which isn't even true in the Free Worlds League. It's not necessary true that the Member of Parliament is democratically elected to begin with. Just isn't it true that there isn't a servitor on Old Kentucky complaining that Sun-Tzu is an idiot. It's all depends on in the FWL on planetary rules on appointing that member, and in the Capellan Confederation if there is enough people in the Cultural Ministry to hear about the complaint and go take care of the Old Jeb for his lack of believe in the Celestial Wisdom either by reeducation or a boot to the head.

However, I prefer my Lockian Principality with its flaws of lack of education money for the Outback (They will pull themselves up by their bootstraps one of these days under one of those Duke Marsins), lack of social programs (Does any other power have a company like Crimson Suns Permanent Assurance Inc.? No, they don't so nah-nah!), or militarism (This is Battletech, right?). Do I consider the Capellans evil? Yeah, but the Capellans consider the Suns evil for being what it is just as the Combine does as well. The Lyrans don't care as long as they get their check in the mail. And the FWL will debate the issue until it becomes in their best interest to side with someone. Do the Capellans have a right to invade the Suns? Sure just as the Suns has the right to liberate the Servitors and  then send colonists to educate (really it's a plan of eventually out-breading or converting the locals until the world never wants to go back to the old regimé in both cases).

Honestly, the only power that I really actually despise is the Republic of the Sphere, and that steams from the fact that the government from Ghost Wars on in good old Orwellian fashion tried to used propaganda. It told its people that everything was fine and not to mind the people moved onto the planet since it will make things all better. And yeah with diversity because the people on Mallory's World are doing better at integrating than your world, and that disappoints us all especially Devlin Stone. Stone is watching. The Republic just gives me a bad taste in my mouth. Is it any wonder that once the HPG grid was gone that the Republic basically collapsed into an infinite way civil war?

So at the least, the Capellans are better than the Republic of the Sphere. They are open about their flaws which garners a bit of my respect. The Republic of the Sphere always plays the victim, and they will eventually sadly survive. Boo. But I do consider the Republic, Capellans, Combine evil, but it's from my point of view. And as I believe, I have the right to believe that.

However, the Suns is also not responsible for the first three Succession Wars unless you believe that by not stopping the Combine or Comstar that they in fact evil by allowing such things. And then the guy who believes preemptive strikes are evil would argue that any such action would make the Suns evil.  So unless, we all agree to a certain moral code which isn't going to happen. None of the powers of Battletech even the Republic are not evil from their own point of view.

However again, the Capellans are evil. And even though I can see their desire for order and survial of humanity as the spoken primary goal, I really can't see it as justification to hit Old Jeb of Old Kentucky in the head with a boot because he made fun of Sun-Tzu. That is evil to me.

MadCapellan

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #260 on: 15 July 2011, 15:03:30 »
Mr. M.  Anchovey, I reiterate, "The State is its Citizens..."  The Citizens should NOT be forced by their government to provide for the well-being of all the galaxies slothful, selfish, violent, ignorant masses, many of which who would do them harm.  The Capellan Confederation, in distinguishing those individuals from societies productive members, relieves that society of the burden of providing for layabouts, criminals, and anarchists.  You may say that the Confederation is a system which is designed to aggradize the Liao family, but I'd argue that the Confederation is the only Great House that preserves the rights of the Citizen without burdening them with providing for all the galaxies misanthropes. 

Caesar Steiner for Archon

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #261 on: 15 July 2011, 15:31:44 »
Mr. M.  Anchovey, I reiterate, "The State is its Citizens..."  The Citizens should NOT be forced by their government to provide for the well-being of all the galaxies slothful, selfish, violent, ignorant masses, many of which who would do them harm.  The Capellan Confederation, in distinguishing those individuals from societies productive members, relieves that society of the burden of providing for layabouts, criminals, and anarchists.  You may say that the Confederation is a system which is designed to aggradize the Liao family, but I'd argue that the Confederation is the only Great House that preserves the rights of the Citizen without burdening them with providing for all the galaxies misanthropes.

If I designated the people who didn't buy in to my fascist ideal of a person's worth being equal to that of their contribution to the State, I could totally preserve all the rights of my people, all the time, and make things awesome for them. Once you designate that some of your people aren't ACTUALLY counted as "your people" then you're just blowing smoke. 

When you go around saying things like this, it goes off the deep end:

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Yes, you have to DO SOMETHING to prove yourself to be considered human.

If this is just in-character banter that's one thing, but if people actually believe this, and that this is a system that deserves support? I am legitimately freaked out by some of the posters in this thread.


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Youngblood

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #262 on: 15 July 2011, 15:48:11 »
*snip*

Well, I'd say that makes sense looking at it from the outside.  You get quiet, begrudging applause from me. :)


If this is just in-character banter that's one thing, but if people actually believe this, and that this is a system that deserves support? I am legitimately freaked out by some of the posters in this thread.

Uhhhhh.  Well...I wouldn't say I'm totally serious, but I do believe that everyone constantly (but often unconsciously) strives to define themselves as one person or another, all their lives.  It's in human nature to be always "on the way".  And I see a lot of that nature in the social ladder (mobility on that ladder, even) in the Confederation.
« Last Edit: 15 July 2011, 15:51:46 by Youngblood »

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #263 on: 15 July 2011, 16:03:31 »
People try and define themselves as a type of person; they should not have to try and define themselves as "a person."


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Youngblood

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #264 on: 15 July 2011, 17:08:14 »
People try and define themselves as a type of person; they should not have to try and define themselves as "a person."

They don't have to try.  They only need to try if they want what the Confederation can give while in their borders.  Some people are okay with living as Servitors.  I actually know one person in real life who fits that description exactly.

False Son

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #265 on: 15 July 2011, 17:21:48 »
I think it's also important to bear in mind that the CapCon is the one state which has struggled with survival from the very beginning.  That struggle permeates every aspect of their philosophy, from the Korvin Doctrine to the pan-Confederation emphasis of Han culture, despite the fact that the Confederation started as a collection of very different cultures.  States operating in a siege mentality can do away with the niceties of civil rights if they feel it strengthens the state.  The Confederation was formed to keep foreign invaders out.  Whatever crimes committed by the Capellan state have happened, at least in personal opinion has been more for securing the survival of state and the protection of it's people.  The Liao family has lathed onto this power structure, absolutely.  But i think even from Franco Liao on the Chancellorship has never hidden it's contempt for the idea of answering to anyone.
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Lord Harlock

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #266 on: 15 July 2011, 17:55:42 »
Except to protect their boarders, they are willing to kill their own people to do so such as the Orbital Bombardment of Capella to destroy the Federated Suns Peacekeepers. It might be about survival, but at the same time, there are some things you shouldn't do just to survive.

False Son

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #267 on: 15 July 2011, 18:23:59 »
Except to protect their boarders, they are willing to kill their own people to do so such as the Orbital Bombardment of Capella to destroy the Federated Suns Peacekeepers. It might be about survival, but at the same time, there are some things you shouldn't do just to survive.

10,000 volunteers vs subjecation of your entire nation.  Capellans paid that price willingly.
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Kit deSummersville

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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #268 on: 15 July 2011, 18:37:00 »
The purpose of the State is to serve, protect and provide for its Citizens.  A State which places a greater emphasis on the well-being of foreigners is a meddlesome, interventionist State at best, or a State masking its imperialist ideals at worst.  If Crucians want to be free to live amongst their dirty rocks and smelly hovels spouting whatever they like, that is not a concern of or a problem for the Capellan State.  The Capellan State doesn't make war with House Davion to insist on actually educating, feeding and medicating their subjects, and we expect our neighbors to respect our system similarly.

You, my friend, have provided no evidence of Capellan despotry.  On the contrary, you have simply indicated that the Capellan Confederation does not share the Federated Suns arrogant belief that they know what's best for everyone and should force their ideals on them at gunpoint.  Thank you!  You are correct: The Capellan Confederation does NOT concern itself with the well being of foreigners, precisely because it isn't any of our business.  The lives of foreigners are for their govenments to decide, not us.

But the definition of Capellan citizenry is so fluid that it can be used to justify any action of a state. Invading a planet? Those are citizens that need liberation, even if none are or were citizens. Suppressing dissent? They lost their citizenship when they disagreed with the state.
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Re: The Capellans are not evil
« Reply #269 on: 15 July 2011, 18:51:09 »
Why should a servitor get that right?  He hasn't proven that he should have a say yet.  Yes, you have to DO SOMETHING to prove yourself to be considered human.  And DOING SOMETHING is what keeps one from loafing on a couch asking why everything isn't about him.  That isn't living.  Living is not breathing.  It is doing.

I highly regard your presentation of evidence in your arguments, Lord Harlock, but they all seem to be based in the belief that anything that isn't borne out of the possibilities of Locke-inspired Western Democracy is backwards and unnecessary.  It's not like people can't come up with better ideas without it.  In fact, I kind of find arguments taken from that perspective somewhat insulting (not your fault).
"The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people."  -Doctrine of Fascism, 1935

Mussolini, Benito. 1935. Fascism: Doctrine and Institutions. Rome: Ardita Publishers. p 14


Admittingly I did a lazy wikipedia cut and paste
 
« Last Edit: 15 July 2011, 18:53:32 by Minemech »

 

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