Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 5 - Comes With Everything You See Here

[GreekFire]

I like the mad genius bit.   ;)

The Hellion P came from the same design philosophy as my earlier Linebacker I - high speed to get into a rear arc, then lots of little shots to carve a target open.

It's frankly one of the best configs to come out of the RecGuides, full stop.

[Scotty]

It's certainly the best Hellion config I'm aware of.   While I'd hesitate to call it superlative for the Rec Guide series it's definitely in good company sporting that A.

[GreekFire]

I do have to admit a bias: it's 100% the type of unit I love to play with the most, and its reasonable BV makes it easy for me to justify cramming it into my games.

[ManicMaestro]

Also once this completes, I may undertake some additional reviews by request.  Or, if there is any demand for it, the accumulated tactical experience that goes into forming these opinions in the form of a "So you want to play BattleTech better?" type of series.

First of all, welcome back, Scotty! Second of all, ^^^^^yes please.

[BrianDavion]

th ammo for the shaodwhawk IIC's streak SRM 2s makes sense in the context of it was designed during a time when SRM 2s or SSRM2s carried streaks. still doesn't make it a good mech these days but you can at least look at it and in that context go "ahh! thats what they where thinking!"

[Natasha Kerensky]

I would just about flip the ratings on the Mastodon B and C.

The bad combination of 3/5 speed and 12-hex range on all weapons except one makes the B config a, well, “B” at best in my book and maybe even a “C”.  Salt is rubbed in that wound by spending so much tonnage on one token long-range weapon (the Streak-20), tonnage that could have been better spent on equipment like jump jets and/or ECM (under Hidden Units rules) to help bring/keep that powerful yet close combat array in range.

I like the three plasma cannons on the C config not for pillboxing tanks and massacring infantry (although they do that) but for their relative reliability in inflicting 14 external heat points (only two out of three hits needed) on enemy mechs.  Even if the enemy mech is running heat neutral, that will force -2 MPs, +2 on to-hit rolls, and a shutdown roll on 4+.  At a minimum, the enemy mech is slow for the ER PPC/Gauss/ER Med Laser x4 salvo the next turn and what firepower it can return will be inaccurate.  But if the enemy mech shuts down, the C config has the option of taking an aimed shot with that 58-point salvo against a leg or center torso and permanently crippling/killing the opponent.  I’d still prefer the sheer long-range firepower of the Prime or the massed accuracy of the A config.  Those deserve “S” ratings.  But he C config deserves more of an “A” than a “C” in my opinion.

[Scotty]

The issue with plasma cannons is that unless you win initiative, you're threatening multiple units on good numbers, or you're playing with unofficial rules like simultaneous declaration of fire, you're spending 21 of your own heat to force a maximum of 15 on your opponent and the target can just... not fire a couple guns to avoid taking any heat at all.  You prevent yourself from firing four ER Medium Lasers in order to prevent your opponent from firing three.

The calculus changes if you win initiative, if your opponent doesn't have perfect information of your declarations, or your opponent makes an unforced error.  One of these things is not the rules as written, one of these things is pure luck, and one of these things cannot be relied on against an opponent of equal skill.  Your mileage may vary, but I get about zero out of them on any board not full of conventional targets.

EDIT: I should say here my issue is entirely with Plasma Cannons having only-barely-better-than-flamers offensive heat efficiency.  If you want to force an opponent to make harsh choices about heat do it with an SRM-6 which averages double the heat to your target as it does to your unit.

[BoyOfSummer]

@Scotty:
Warhawk T: Plasma Rifles or Plasma Cannons?

[Empyrus]

Warhawk T has Plasma Rifles. +1d6 heat, averaging 3.5, contrast to flamers +3 heat...

[Jal Phoenix]

Warhawk T has Plasma Rifles. +1d6 heat, averaging 3.5, contrast to flamers +3 heat...

Yeah, but also with six times the range and ten extra damage than Flamers...

[Ghaz]

Warhawk T has Plasma Rifles. +1d6 heat, averaging 3.5, contrast to flamers +3 heat...

I believe he asked due to the review for the Warhawk T Scotty posted:

Warhawk T: One thing I like about the Recognition Guides is that there are some designs that demonstrate genuine innovation in pursuit of a goal.  The Warhawk T is an excellent example of that.  Most of the 6 ton guns in the Clan arsenal have gone on the Warhawk in some combination on an existing configuration, which left very little space for the T to innovate with Clan guns.  The solutions was to use non-Clan guns.  Two guns are Clan ER PPCs, of course, but the other two are Inner Sphere Plasma Rifles, notable for their inclusion here because they do something that Clan guns genuinely don't - damage and heat to the same target.  The traditional Targeting Computer is here, as is a Rocket Launcher 10 to save tonnage from the LRM 10 you weren't using anyway.  This results in enough space for three tons of Plasma Rifle ammo and 20 double heat sinks.  With the leaner guns, this lets the Warhawk fire both ER PPCs and one Plasma Cannon at a run for +2, or one ER PPC and both Plasma Cannons at a run for -3.  While firing all four guns is generally unwise, on good numbers you can go wild for a +12 heat, which is higher than I'd want to go but is still "safe" without having to take shut down rolls.  The BV is high for most things but is only middling for a Warhawk at 2938, clocking in under the Prime and C among classic configs.  Overall it's something I'm not likely to use but it has uses and is built as intelligently as the traditional Warhawk construction allows.  B+

IMHO it's pretty clear that when it says Plasma Cannon(s) it should say Plasma Rifle(s) but that may just be me.

[Greatclub]

I just realized what the AC/20 longbow is descended from - the arrow artillery longbow.

Scotty, you mention that you have a favorite longbow, but not what it is. 13C, for MML goodness?

[Colt Ward]

. . . or you're playing with unofficial rules like simultaneous declaration of fire . . .

Huh?  I thought simultaneous declaration of fire was actually the rule though many tables do not follow that rule.

[nckestrel]

Huh?  I thought simultaneous declaration of fire was actually the rule though many tables do not follow that rule.

The rule is you declare in initiative order.  I declare one and then you declare one.
Having declarations being separate from resolving is what many players skip.

[BoyOfSummer]

IMHO it's pretty clear that when it says Plasma Cannon(s) it should say Plasma Rifle(s) but that may just be me.

I thought so, too, b/c he wrote about IS weapons. But i was at work and had no access to my BT files to confirm this.

[S.gage]

The people have spoken.
...

I never stopped checking this thread, and it was well worth the wait. Thanks!
(and btw, here's hoping your stressful season of work has become a lot less stressful)

[Empyrus]

I just realized what the AC/20 longbow is descended from - the arrow artillery longbow.

Incidentally many Recognition Guide variants seem to be based on existing variants where possible, sharing components, armor layouts, or other item placements.
The Warhammer 8R for example is the 8M with new armament (and classic stylings rather than Project Phoenix). Armor layout is identical to the original. The Wolverine 8R is similar case, and there are many others like that.
I like this.

[five_corparty]

Also once this completes, I may undertake some additional reviews by request.  Or, if there is any demand for it, the accumulated tactical experience that goes into forming these opinions in the form of a "So you want to play BattleTech better?" type of series.

I would love (and this might be a way to blend both of those ideas) into reviews of the box sets (reviews of variants of JUST the mechs in the box sets)

or, ideas on what variants to use per Lance/star pack.  "okay, so you just bought the Clan Ad-hoc lance and are trying to figure out how to mesh them together.  gather round pappy Scotty, kids, here's some ideas..."  something like that. :-)

[Jal Phoenix]

I think that articles on suggested tactics for the Lance/Star packs would be great. A review of the variants included, and how to best use them together without the support of anything else.

[Scotty]

I think that articles on suggested tactics for the Lance/Star packs would be great. A review of the variants included, and how to best use them together without the support of anything else.

Variants  included here meaning the ones on cards in the box, the sheets in the free downloads, or some other consideration?

[five_corparty]

Variants  included here meaning the ones on cards in the box, the sheets in the free downloads, or some other consideration?

YES. ;-) haha

no, seriously, absolutely breaking down the cards in the box / downloadable.

But then, maybe running down some of the BEST variants of each type, but why the best of one type might not be the best in that STAR.

Again, using the Ad-hoc as an example: you explained BRILLIANTLY why the hellion p is a VERY GOOD MECH. :-)

but, in that star, is that the right mech?  is there a better combo with that odd mix? How would you use those five mechs, both with the included cards and in your "ideal" Star build.

I think there's room for both, is what I'm saying.  i've been loving your articles, they've been helping me improve, and I've been doing this a minute now. ;-) 

I think great advice for new players on how to use their brand-new mechs straight out of the box as a team, well, it would be very helpful to them.  it might help cut down that learning curve against experienced players, and who knows, maybe some of us old farts might learn a new trick or two as well? (me.  i am the old fart learning new tricks, ;-)

(all of this said, you're doing this out of the kindness of your own heart, so don't feel pressured to do anymore than you have the spare time and mental spoons to handle, you know?  make sure you put you first. :-)

[Jal Phoenix]

Variants  included here meaning the ones on cards in the box, the sheets in the free downloads, or some other consideration?

Just what comes in the box. No other products/downloads necessary. I'm thinking some recommended tactics for someone who just picked up that one box.

[Scotty]

Unless the lance/Star packs have started shipping with folded up record sheets in them and I somehow missed it, they only come with the alpha strike cards for two variants/configs each and it's difficult to play a Total Warfare scale game with no additional materials.

I will probably do what's in the wave 1/wave 2 pdfs since I think that hews next closest to what you're describing here, and maybe what's in the AGOAC and Clan Invasion boxes.

[Jellico]

The small lasers on the SHDIIC 2 are more crit seekers rather than raw damage.

I have had good success with it back in the 50s and 60s when I had to whittle apart DC C3 companies back before ECM proliferated. It meshed well with other skirmishers like Horned Owls. Accurate, hard to pin down, hard to put down.

[five_corparty]

I have had good success with it back in the 50s and 60s when I had to whittle apart DC C3 companies back before ECM proliferated. It meshed well with other skirmishers like Horned Owls. Accurate, hard to pin down, hard to put down.

back in the 50's and 60's?

-Fortunate Son intensifies-

 (yes, i know what you mean, but I couldn't resist) ;) ;D

[Scotty]

I stand by my declaration that the Shadow Hawk IIC is a very poor equivalent to a Shadow Hawk by virtue of being much more of a Phoenix Hawk than anything else.

[Jal Phoenix]

Unless the lance/Star packs have started shipping with folded up record sheets in them and I somehow missed it, they only come with the alpha strike cards for two variants/configs each and it's difficult to play a Total Warfare scale game with no additional materials.

I will probably do what's in the wave 1/wave 2 pdfs since I think that hews next closest to what you're describing here, and maybe what's in the AGOAC and Clan Invasion boxes.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. The cards are for specific variants or configs, two per box. I'd like to see someone write an article for how to use the variants in each box as a unit, without any outside support from anything. No "this unit is a great spotter for off board artillery", just a review of how the 'Mechs in the box can be most effectively used as a team. The cards are numbered odd/even, to make it easier to decide which variant belongs to which force. Some IS packs even have introtech and advanced variants to make it easier. This is something I feel that someone else with more actual game time experience could to better than I could.

[Scotty]

Sorry, I wasn't clear. The cards are for specific variants or configs, two per box. I'd like to see someone write an article for how to use the variants in each box as a unit, without any outside support from anything. No "this unit is a great spotter for off board artillery", just a review of how the 'Mechs in the box can be most effectively used as a team. The cards are numbered odd/even, to make it easier to decide which variant belongs to which force. Some IS packs even have introtech and advanced variants to make it easier. This is something I feel that someone else with more actual game time experience could to better than I could.

Perhaps a compromise, the designs in the wave 1/2 PDFs broken down by box?  Getting those sheets is going to be required to play with those boxes anyway outside of having sheets from other sources or using a program.  I can probably toss in any variants/configs on the cards if they're not included in the pdf, though.

[Jal Phoenix]

In hindsight, it was kind of dumb of me to assume that everyone knew exactly which variants were in each box. If it's a project you'd like to take up, I'd be happy to read it in whatever format you chose.

[BrianDavion]

In hindsight, it was kind of dumb of me to assume that everyone knew exactly which variants were in each box. If it's a project you'd like to take up, I'd be happy to read it in whatever format you chose.

in fairness from a BATTLETECH POV, no varients come "in the box" (I mean they're modeled sure but... you get what I'm saying you still need to hunt down/print whathaveyou the record sheet) just alpha strike cards