Author Topic: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 5 - Comes With Everything You See Here  (Read 153346 times)

Scotty

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Recognition Guide: IlClan Volume 8:

Fire Moth (Dasher) T: Some configs benefit more from staying WYSIWYG than others.  The Fire Moth T is not one of those.  Personally I'd rather have just a Streak SRM 4 than a i-OS version and a regular SRM 6.  That's not a huge deal, though, as the rest of the equipment is a pair of Improved Heavy Medium Lasers and a Supercharger on top of the inbuilt MASC.  It takes a lot to make a Fire Moth genuinely good, and while there have been a handful of strong attempts at it, this version actually brings something fairly unique to the table in its 10/15[25] movement profile.  That makes it functionally immune to return fire at long range with the ability to line up 17 hex lanes with enough speed to turn around at the end twice and still have MP left for a turn with a +5 TMM, or take a leisurely route to whatever LOS-blocking terrain it feels like.  The heat situation is on the cool side, running and firing all the non-OS weapons is neutral.  The BV is still high for a tin can with legs at 1305, but I think this has significantly better odds of trading up into something effectively than the Mist Lynx J.  C+

Fire Moth (Dasher) G: Ah, right, this was bound to happen.  All the speed of the T, but this time it's cosplaying a Hellstar 2 that shrunk in the wash.  Four Improved Heavy Mediums and a Targeting Computer is vicious.  The heat situation is toasty, but there is a coolant pod for a single turn of heat neutral running with all guns.  Once the coolant pod is expended you're looking at +10 to fire everything, which when you think about it only drops the speed to 8/12[20] so it's entirely reasonable to treat this more like a 'Mech that jumps long distance as far as your approach to heat management goes.  Regardless of initiative you will simply not be there next turn while you cool off.  The only thing dragging this config down besides its durability is the price tag at 2041 BV.  That's insane for a 'Mech that has a grand total of 69 combined armor and structure pips on the record sheet.  What's more insane is that it might actually manage to trade-up, still.  If you thought the Dasher H was a vicious beast this is what happens when you refine it further.  B

Fire Moth (Dasher) I: This is decidedly mundane compared to what we had before.  There's an ER Large, an Improved Heavy Small, and an LRM 5 with no additional speed boost.  How droll.  It skirmishes, but the speed is largely wasted (or more accurately not used to its potential) with a single decent long range gun and then paltry secondaries.  The heat situation is back to a flat line, assuming you're in range to be firing the iHSL which I don't particularly recommend.  At 1260 BV it's far too expensive for what it does, which is accomplished arguably better by either the Wasp C or the Ostscout 12R that I lampooned in the first volume.  If you simply must pick a Light Omni to skirmish at range with ER Large Lasers, the Fire Falcon B has double the gun, double the armor, double the accuracy and is still fast enough for +210 BV.  There's argument to be made for a trade-off there, but the point is that there are competitors in this role that are just betterD

Fire Moth (Dasher J): This is an interesting take.  There are a handful of small lasers (two ER Small, one ER Small Pulse), and a Plasma Cannon with a ton of ammo.  That's not a lot of damage, but it has a very clear role as a mobile battle armor hunter.  The single ton of ammo is an accurate prediction of how long a Fire Moth is going to last, if not a bit optimistic.  Heat isn't even worth considering on this 'Mech, and the BV at 1140 is rough.  Honestly the fact that none of these Fire Moth configs is under a thousand BV so far is A Problem and a serious roadblock to them seeing regular use unless they're excellent at their price.  This is very hard to do with their general (lack of) durability.  This doesn't do enough in my games for me to want to use it under basically any circumstances.  D

Fire Moth (Dasher) M: Getting closer.  Four ER Smalls is enough to trigger a PSR, and there's an LRM 15 here too that will do appreciable damage while the ammo lasts.   Being able to reliably force a PSR is a good benchmark and in my not-so-humble opinion something that's near mandatory for a 'Mech to be worth its points at over 1000 BV.  This config is 1200 BV and so far the one that comes closest to reliably pulling its own weight (the G is the next most likely, but that one is expensive enough that "reliable" is a strong word when a single 10 point hit can remove most of the 'Mech).  The unfortunate problem is that much like the I config there are things that do what this does but better.  The Locust IIC, which will feature in this series later, is a frankly superior version of this concept while also being cheaper.  I'm admittedly mostly ignoring the LRM 15, which is unfair, but I think it's genuinely the secondary weapon here.  There's not enough ammo to skirmish, and not enough armor to play for midrange good shots against guns that very likely match or beat your optimum ranges.  If you're not in ER Small range, you might as well have brought something else.  The Incubus 8 from last volume is appreciably more expensive, but you get genuinely good-at-size armor and you're nearly as fast, with significantly better backup guns for the LRM.  Not worth it.  D

Fire Moth (Dasher) P: This is probably the next best execution of the concept of the Fire Moth as a fast backstabber after the G, and I think this is definitely where it shines.  This is back to having a Supercharger and the enormous 25 hex sprint range, but instead of loading up on Improved Heavy Mediums and a Target Computer, there are twelve Micro Pulse Lasers.  The damage is low per gun, but if you successfully get to point blank range you're going to do a lot, and you are almost certainly getting to 1 hex in the rear arc where three point hits are still dangerous.  The reason this is my favorite Fire Moth config in the volume is that it's finally cheap enough at 841 BV.  This makes it a useful trade piece in a vacuum and a useful target for a suddenly fairly cheap gunnery upgrade.  I don't often talk about gunnery skill improvements because I find them by and large to not be worth it but there are a few exceptions and I think this is one of them.  B+

Fire Moth (Dasher) R: I... okay, fine, I guess.  This config feels like someone flipped through the BattleMech Manual for six pieces of random equipment and only then built the 'Mech.  Two Improved Heavy Mediums, an Inner Sphere Medium Laser, a Clan ER Small Laser, a Clan ECM Suite, a C3 Computer, and an M-Pod.  Eclectic is putting it mildly.  The good news is that all of these guns cap out at 9 hexes range, which keeps them at very least unified in purpose.  The M-Pod feels incredibly tacked on even if I like the equipment, essentially being a very short range one-shot LB-15X.  The C3 Computer and the ECM are a very good combo on a very good 'Mech, but it almost feels like someone was trying deliberately to build a config that was discombobulated enough that the C3 didn't feel "too good".  I don't agree with that kind of thought process in a world where BV exists, honestly, and this entire config comes off as the BattleMech scale equivalent of "new tech with a massive trade-off to make it not worth using over old tech".  The BV at 1161 is fine when it comes right down to it, because paired iHMLs still hurt, but what could have been?  The letter grade here is bad because the design choices feel like they were intended to deliberately un-optimize the 'Mech and I can't call that a good design.  F

Howler (Baboon): This is a bad guide for me in terms of 'Mechs I like.  Another 20 tonner, this one is three LRM 5s (okay) with three tons of ammo (er, what?), moving 7/11 and costing 645 BV.  The armor is significantly improved over the Fire Moth, but that's not saying a whole lot.  A standard engine means losing a torso won't kill you, but losing the right torso might as well kill you because it has all of your guns and all of your ammo in it and nothing else.  There's a lot of legacy design choices going on here, but I'm not impressed.  The BV is good, which is the only high point, but it's still a second-line 'Mech in every sense of the word.  C-

Howler (Baboon) 4: This 'Mech is credibly outgunned by the Locust 1M.  F

Howler (Baboon) 5: Finally, a 'Mech that is actually capable of making an opponent pay attention and punishing them for not doing that.  Six ER Medium Lasers is genuinely a lot of damage, and while the heat is now entering 'spicy' territory I'll take that over having absolutely no teeth every single day.  Four ER Mediums is still mostly heat neutral (+2 at a run), and you can really punch it if you get a good number.  Arguably would be better with four and then some other gadget gun but I like what's here.  What is less attractive is the BV at 1363, but if we're being realistic here this variant is going to tear multiple standard Howlers to pieces with contemptuous ease and there the BV makes sense.  Not bad, kid.  C+

Howler (Baboon) 6: Two SRM 6s in a shoulder turret with two tons of ammo.  I'm not entirely sure how to feel about this one, but mostly because I don't at all understand what the point of the shoulder turret is.  Well, that's not strictly speaking true, it's because the Howler has a shoulder mount, and that's just where the weapons go, but in terms of "this could be better", putting them in the arms (or even just one arm) with no actuators is just better in every way.  Nobody cares about a 20 ton 'Mech's punches.  There aren't a whole lot of situations where I feel like flavor is a mistake, and I feel like I'm going to catch some flak for calling this bad because of it, but this 'Mech is using equipment it doesn't need to use to accomplish something it could have done already for no additional benefit.  The BV is 550 but I'm not inclined to use it for basically any reason.  D

Devil: Begin recipe with one (1) Pack Hunter.  Remove jump jets, add a dash more engine, and include a Targeting Computer to taste.  There's an XL Engine here and the frame made the jump to 30 tons and put some more armor on besides.  This is actually a decent 'Mech when it comes right down to it, even if it's a bit expensive in real terms at 1691.  You could certainly do worse.  C+

Viper (Dragonfly) T: Vipers get a bad rap.  Some of them deserve it.  This one is pushing it.  It has decent guns and accurate guns, but it struggles to force a PSR with them outside of four hexes.  It is at least capable of it, however.  There's a Target Computer, which helps, there's a Light Active Probe, which really doesn't much, and it has an Anti-Missile System, which is something.  A jumping alpha is +4, a running alpha is well below zero.  Other than that it's the typical Viper, meaning it's fast as hell and probably too expensive but will last longer than it feels like it should.  At 1704 I think it's fine, but I think there are also better Vipers you can take for about that much.  C

Viper (Dragonfly) J: I like this a lot better.  3x3 ATMs is not how I'd have built it but it's flexible and the ER Micros are numerous enough to chip in at point blank with HE.  Three tons of ammo is a lot, and I'd take one of each here because you're not particularly likely to be firing any one ammo type for more than six turns.  Heat is a non-issue, and it's just as fast as any other Viper.  At 1259 BV I think this is a much stronger play than the T.  B

Viper (Dragonfly) K: This config brings two ER Mediums and three AP Gauss along with basically every electronics system you will ever need (Angel ECM, Active Probe, TAG).  This is more of a support config than the J and it's not bad.  The BV is higher than the J and lower than the T at 1545, but there's additional utility here that the T just didn't have.  You are actually capable of overheating with this 'Mech, sometimes, but heat remains largely a non-concern.  C+

Viper (Dragonfly) L: And we're back to not being able to force a PSR.  Three Streak LRM 5s with two tons of ammo and two ER Micro Lasers is not a particularly efficient use of the Viper's limited podspace and I'm not a fan here.  At 1417 BV it's going to struggle to contribute enough to matter, and you don't even get the flexibility of a normal LRM 5 for indirect fire.  D

Viper (Dragonfly) M: This is a genuinely duelist config and I think it does a fine job of it.  Two ER Mediums and two Medium Pulse Lasers, plus a Micro Pulse Laser and a Targeting Computer is Enough Gun.  At a run you're heat neutral, meaning you can use the jump jets to engage or disengage like a proper skirmisher, and actually have enough guns to make a credible threat or bait an opponent out of position.  The BV is commensurately higher at 2054 but with the extreme mobility and good durability paired with efficient, accurate guns I think this is the best duelist that has been in this volume so far and it's not particularly close.  It's certainly the first 'Mech that's reliably going to pull its weight that's over 2K BV.  A

Viper (Dragonfly) R: The R is an odd config, because it's a Mixed Tech design that as far as I can tell only exists to use an Inner Sphere Bloodhound Active Probe and nothing else.  There's a Light TAG and a Narc here, too, to go with two ER Medium Lasers.  This is inarguably a support config but there are definitely better ways to get a Bloodhound.  Even with explosive Narc pods there's no way to force a PSR here, and at 1335 it doesn't feel very cheap.  I'm undervaluing the TAG, again, but that's a constant at this point and isn't going to salvage my opinion of the config.  D

Rifleman RFL-5D: Hey you remember how most of those Viper configs are reasonably heat efficient or even downright chilly?  Lmao.  This Rifleman has reasonable armor, comparable to most of the older Warhammers we saw yesterday, but it takes an XL Engine and a 4/6 speed to do that because there are an extraordinary amount of guns on this 'Mech and not enough heat sinks to use them.  Which is saying something, because there are 17 doubles here.  We're looking at two each ER PPCs, Large Lasers, and Medium Lasers.  Both ER PPCs can fire and run comfortably, and one ER PPC can be replaced with two Large Lasers once the numbers are favorable to still stay cool.  Adding Medium Lasers as the range closes is also fine.  The heat curve is honestly better than I expected just looking at guns + sinks, and this can comfortably fire all guns minus a single ER PPC and come out right where it wants to be at a walk (+4).  Adding the second ER PPC at that point is what we in the industry call A Mistake, though, unless you're very certain you're going to score a kill.  The BV is moderately high at 1395 for a slow low end heavy with an IS XL but it pulls its weight offensively.  I'd use it without much regret, at least a couple times.  C

Rifleman RFL-5M: This is going to surprise at least a couple people reading this, but I am a big fan of Ultra AC/5s.  I don't think there's enough armor here to justify using them like this and don't even get me started on having two UAC/5s with a single ton of ammo between them, but I like the guns conceptually.  The lack of armor and the lack of ammo and the lack of speed and the presence of an IS XL means that I don't want to use this 'Mech, but it will be very fun for exactly 3.5 turns.  The heat curve is genuinely comfortable at +4 at a running alpha, right about where it should be.  At least, if there were at least one more ton of ammo and two more tons of armor.  Ah well.  The BV at 1227 isn't terrible but the 5D is much better. D

Rifleman RFL-7G: Ahhhhh, here we go.  The armor situation is still mediocre at best, but the guns are much improved.  Each arm has a Silver Bullet Gauss and they have four total tons of ammo.  Two ER Mediums back them up, though honestly I wouldn't get closer than 15 hexes if you have a choice.  There's still an IS XL, but at least the guns detonating if they're hit probably won't kill you.  Better to avoid taking the chance at all, though.  There's enough firepower here that it actually successfully manages to be the fabled "team player".  It lacks the single-location damage to peel open a section, but it will happily fill any holes with an unreasonable number of pellets at Gauss Rifle ranges.  The BV is cheap at 1302 for a good support unit.  The biggest downside is the armor, but with the size of the guns there's not much to do about that.  B

Rifleman RFL-7N: The hits keep coming.  I'm not normally a fan of ER Large Lasers, but I think they pair very well with LB-5Xs, matching range brackets more or less exactly minus the slight difference in maximum range.  There are exactly enough heat sinks to be heat neutral with just the ER Larges, or +2 with the LBXs.  There is enough ammo, two tons, and it's protected by CASE II as it should be on a 'Mech with an IS XL.  The armor is improved but still not ideal, and there are a pair of ER Mediums for if the enemy gets closer than is comfortable.  Two of them replace a single ER Large effectively to keep heat neutral, which I like.  The BV is climbing but so is the relative effectiveness at 1398.  Works reasonably well with the 7G, but also has enough tools in its own toolbox to work by itself.  B+

Rifleman RFL-7N2: There is only one thing wrong with this 'Mech, and it's that the armor is still not as high as I want it to be.  Everything else is doing very well for itself.  There's still an IS XL Engine, but he main guns are now LB-10Xs and Light PPCs, with ER Medium Lasers up close.  The LBXs have three tons of ammo and are protected by CASE II.  Firing all long range guns is fairly chilly, but they can all be fired, and there's flexibility in the damage profiles.  Up close things are a bit toasty at +6 while running but I would not be happy about spending more heat on heat sinks here when dropping a single LPPC or ER Medium Laser depending on exactly how close the enemy is takes it back down to a more reasonable +1.  There's an allusion to a modified version of this in Trenton Marik's profile in BattleTech Legends that swaps a ton of LBX ammo for a ton of armor, and I want a record sheet for that very badly because it's an excellent 'Mech.  The BV here is 1452, which is excellent for a multi-role Heavy with flexible guns and acceptable armor.  If it were any less dangerous it'd be much worse, but I think it strikes a sweet spot of durability, offensive capability, and cost that's hard to beat.  I've used this 'Mech several times and been very happy with it every time.  One of my favorites to come out of the series, let alone this volume. A+

Rifleman C: Two Clan Large Pulse Lasers and two Clan LB-5Xs with one ton of ammo.  The ammo is in the Center Torso, and there are exactly 12 single heat sinks.  Firing one LPL and both LBXs generates movement heat, firing both LPLs on its own is +8 before movement heat is considered.  The armor is based on the Rifleman 3N, which is also not good.  All of these things on their own would be serious downsides but not catastrophic, all of them together is terrible.  The only saving grace here is the standard engine.  The BV is lower than it could have been, at 1335, but you're competing directly with the 7G and 7N for that cost and both of them are just plain better.  D

Rifleman C 3: Take everything I just said about the C and run it through a paper shredder.  All Clantech, two ER Larges, two Ultra AC/5s with a ton of ammo each (the ammo is in the CASE'd arms), two ER Medium Lasers.  The heat sinks to fire all long range guns at a run for +2 heat.  The armor is excellent, by far the best we've seen on a Rifleman.  There's still a Standard Engine.  Up close drop one ER Large for both ER Mediums for an appreciable increase in damage.  The BV at 1871 is a downside only compared to truly excellent 'Mechs out there like the Warhammer 7A that can reasonably compete with it at a slightly cheaper point.  This 'Mech has no serious weaknesses.  A

'Mechs by rating:

F: 2
D: 8
C: 7
B: 5
A: 3
S: none

Cumulative 'Mechs by rating (series):

F: 12
D: 37
C: 61
B: 43
A: 31
S: 4
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Colt Ward

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Fire Moth G comments- MASC & presumably Supercharger give the full speed?  It would not be 8/12(16)?
Colt Ward
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Scotty

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It has both, so it would be 8/12[16][20]
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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The Dasher J is useful for hunting slow-moving tracked or wheeled vehicles with limited weapon ranges.  Even in the Dark Age, things like the Demolisher still exist and the Dasher J is a really cheap way to brick one at 10+ hexes.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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Scotty

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I was about to say I wouldn't describe that as cheap, but then I checked the MUL and there's only one other 'Mech in the game cheaper than it with a Plasma Cannon, and that's the Mist Lynx M from yesterday.  I think I still wouldn't exactly describe it as cheap, and there are about a hundred other things I'd take if the objective was parking Demolishers from 10+ hexes though.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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What can I say?  I'm a sucker for giving vehicles plasma baths from outside their range of retaliation.  There's not much you can really do with a Dasher, and it's not a mech that I play regularly, but sometimes it's fun.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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Jellico

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The Viper R is crippled in two directions, as a Kickstarter backer request and by the RecGuide rule restrictions.  The available equipment didn't let us get what the backer needed.  :-[

Not a big fan of Fire Moths like the H and P. Yes they are cheap but you really have to get within one hex to get any accuracy.  That can be harder than you think. Gs and Ds have more wriggle room. Even are sub-1000 BV you can't afford to treat a Fire Moth as a one time asset.


Fire Moth G comments- MASC & presumably Supercharger give the full speed?  It would not be 8/12(16)?
I am surprised that you don't want to kick something with it like whenever you see an Executioner with a Supercharger.  ;)

StCptMara

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And then after the Warhammer gets destroyed, they get issued a brand new CES-3R as a replacement. ;D

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Starfury

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There are days I wonder how well paid Ultra AC/5 munitions makers are in the FWL, because they love 1 ton of ammo for their UAC/5 equipped mechs. The 5M Rifleman is not one of Marik's best hits. It doesn't veer into 3050 era Goliath and Quickdraw territory, but it's not driving the era either.  The Rifleman 5D is an old favorite of mine for supporting LRM boats and trooper lines, but it does run hot. Removing the medium lasers for another double heat sink and a ton of armor would the logical choice for a post Jihad era quick refit. The 7G, 7N, and 7N2 are nice updates to an old classic and compare extremely well to their Project Phoenix brethren. I'd have no issue fielding an all PP/7 line Rifleman lance in any House or merc service.  The Clan versions are fine to excellent, and the Rifleman C3 updates it for front line status.

The Fire Moth and Viper configs pretty much match what I expected, other then the mixed tech outliers. The Devil is another fast Clan light ER PPC carrier, which doesn't really wow me after the long line of the same concept we've seen for years.  As for the Baboon, I don't think I've ever seen one used since it appeared in TRO 3055. It always seemed like an IS idea on a Clan chassis; fast, light fire support and harrassment. 

All in all, the Rec Guides have been a fun ride since they were released and helped continue love for the game, though no one really plays it my area (West Michigan) anymore. 

Colt Ward

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I have been using the Rifleman 7N for a lot of fun in a Regulan force on MM, it has been sitting back from cover popping targets after the Awesome 9Q or Supernova 5 hit them with the barrage of 10 point holepunchers.  It really works in that role as the follow up shooter, it can land those 8 point hits to perhaps finish punching through on a location, then the long range scatterguns poke at the insides.

I really wish we had gotten Trenton Marik's custom Rifleman, which IIRC drops a bit of ammo for some armor.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

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Hmm. I'm looking at about a C+ so far, hopefully I pick it up as we go.  :)
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MarauderD

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I really wish we had gotten Trenton Marik's custom Rifleman, which IIRC drops a bit of ammo for some armor.

As a Rifleman fan, reading Legends tells us he dropped the 2 mediums for "additional armor and a larger autocannon magazine."  So he adds 16 points of armor, and 1 ton of cluster ammo in the RT?  At least the additional armor could take it up to 9 points of head armor and some extra leg armor.  Those legs are SKINNY.

Colt Ward

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Ok, pulled it the other way . . . but yeah, I already tried painting his Rifleman so I need a RS to put him on the table.
Colt Ward
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"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

wantec

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What can I say?  I'm a sucker for giving vehicles plasma baths from outside their range of retaliation.  There's not much you can really do with a Dasher, and it's not a mech that I play regularly, but sometimes it's fun.
That's for sure. I designed the J, M, & P and there were only so many options available with only 6.5 tons (and certain 6-ton weapons off-limits).

Like Scotty guessed, the J was designed for hunting anything that didn't track heat or was a VTOL. The M started with the realization the existing LRM/ATM configs were pretty anemic. The ammo load was a compromise based on expected longevity of a Fire Moth and leaving enough tonnage for firepower once the missiles were gone. Last of mine was the P and I was looking to see what weapons hadn't been used yet in a Fire Moth config. All that was left were the headcappers and most of the pulse lasers. The MPL was already in the B config. The SPL and ERSPL just didn't provide enough damage, but the Micro Pulse was an interesting opportunity. Up to 36 damage and the supercharger was a natural addition to make sure it could get where it needed to be.

Hmm. I'm looking at about a C+ so far, hopefully I pick it up as we go.  :)
Mine just started, but I think I'm a C or C-, trying to figure out how to calculate my average
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The Devil is another fast Clan light ER PPC carrier, which doesn't really wow me after the long line of the same concept we've seen for years.

The irony is that the Devil did it first, but few people knew it.

Starfury

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And I am the dumb. I just realized the Devil is from the 1993 FASA update flyer with the Roadrunner in it.  I knew that design looked familiar.  Another deep cut, Recguide team. You win this round.

Scotty

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Mine just started, but I think I'm a C or C-, trying to figure out how to calculate my average

I recommend using a value of 1 for F, 2 for D, 3 for C, 4 for B, 5 for A, 6 for S, and average the results.  +/- 0.25 to 0.5 would be the +/- corresponding grade, i.e. a 3.4 would be a C+, and a 4.8 would be an A-.  That's probably a good way to average it.
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Jellico

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Viper (Dragonfly) T: Vipers get a bad rap.  Some of them deserve it.  This one is pushing it.  It has decent guns and accurate guns, but it struggles to force a PSR with them outside of four hexes.  It is at least capable of it, however.  There's a Target Computer, which helps, there's a Light Active Probe, which really doesn't much, and it has an Anti-Missile System, which is something.  A jumping alpha is +4, a running alpha is well below zero.  Other than that it's the typical Viper, meaning it's fast as hell and probably too expensive but will last longer than it feels like it should.  At 1704 I think it's fine, but I think there are also better Vipers you can take for about that much.  C
WYSIWYG. The T is a streamlined Prime we then had to fill with stuff again to match the art. A key example is the active probe. The  Viper is arguably the game's premier scout 'Mech. Finally that very 80s sensor ball on the nose is represented.
Vipers don't run. They jump. You can't judge them on their running heat.


Perhaps some of these reviews and comments should be collated and attached to the appropriate "of the Weeks"?

Scotty

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Recognition Guide: IlClan Volume 9:

Valkyrie VLK-QD:  I've seen much worse.  A single IS Medium Pulse Laser and an LRM-10 with Artemis IV and a ton of ammo is reasonable.  It's slow for a Light at 5/8/5, but it has armor better than it could have, and it has a Standard Engine and CASE for the launcher.  The ammo being in the right torso while the LRM is in the left, and the pulse laser being in the right arm is not ideal though.  Losing the right torso doesn't outright kill this 'Mech but it might as well, reducing it to melee only.  Ten single heat sinks is enough for running and firing both guns, but jumping is toastier.  At 807 BV it's a decent filler.  There are places that it could be made more efficient - double heat sinks would do exactly nothing to the BV because it can't overheat by enough to benefit from the heat BV reduction, for one - but it's entirely fine for what it is.  If it was more expensive I'd be upset about not being able to force a PSR, but as cheap as it is this is fine.  C+

Valkyrie VLK-QD6: This is certainly a choice.  Several things have happened here to set it apart from the QD.  First, an XL Engine and XL Gyro.  Second, double heatsinks that actually will see use.  Third, the Medium Pulse is now an ER Medium and the LRM 10 with Artemis is now an Extended LRM 10 instead with two tons of ammo.  From a certain point of view, the 'Mech hasn't gotten more vulnerable to losing the right torso, but everything else adds up to a much flimsier 'Mech than the QD.  The only serious weapon here is the Extended LRM 10.  You are very nearly incapable of using both of these weapons against the same target at the same time, which strongly limits what was already a niche weapon.  It's more vulnerable, it does less damage, and though it slightly does better with heat it's not nearly enough to be a genuinely good upgrade.  The BV at 827 might genuinely be the cheapest you can take an Extended LRM, and the mobility is better than many other Extended LRM 10s, but at the end of the day you've brought a Macedonian long pike to a knife fight.  It might be useful in the right circumstances, but a common 'Mech duel ain't it.  D

Valkyrie VLK-QDD: This is much closer to a genuine upgrade on the Valkyrie QD.  There are still some trade-offs, like a Light Fusion Engine and an XL Gyro, and the pulse has still been replaced with an ER Medium laser, but we're back to an LRM 10 w/Artemis IV and a ton of ammo (still protected with CASE), and this time it's 6/9/6 with doubles.  It's faster, marginally more fragile, and deals slightly less damage at longer ranges.  It's much easier to use these weapons together, even if you're still not capable of forcing PSRs.  The BV increase is also marginal, to 834.  This is what I would say is a solid take on an upgrade.  B-

Valkyrie C: Ahhh, the best Valkyrie.  As the C probably tells you, this is a lot of Clantech.  We have a Clan Medium Pulse Laser, which I think is arguably the best in the business for efficient light 'mech guns, and a Clan LRM 10.  This affords us the ability to take two tons of ammo for effective skirmishing on bad numbers.  Also included is Clan CASE II now that losing a ton of ammo to a crit isn't instantly a mission kill regardless of what else happens.  There's still an IS XL engine and XL Gyro, but these are mitigated significantly by the movement profile of 5/8/8.  This makes the Medium Pulse shine, and your sweet spot is either six hexes against most things, or within touching distance of anything with IS LRMs.  It's extraordinarily maneuverable for a Valkyrie, and the heat concerns are practically non-existent.  This isn't unique to the Improved Jump Jets, but it does mean you can afford to take even an engine hit and still run cool.  Armor suffers a little bit, but the jump in durability from high TMMs is more than worth the trade at 936 BV.  A

Shadow Cat T: Finally, I don't have to use a stupid (name) for these things.  I love the Shadow Cat T, it is exactly what I would have done to a Shadow Cat Prime if you asked me to remake it but better.  We have two Medium Pulse Lasers and a UAC/10 with two tons of ammo plus a Probe, mirroring the Prime exactly in all things except which weapons are actually on the 'mech.  I like this weapons more than the Gauss/ER Medium combo on the Prime up front and the drop in BV to 1852 is just gravy.  Jumping and firing all guns is exactly neutral, and even with the premium all Shadow Cats pay for having both fixed jump jets and MASC this is eminently usable.  A

Shadow Cat D: I love the T because of how cheap it is, and I don't love the D for the opposite reason.  Three Medium Pulse Lasers, an ER Large Laser, an ER Small Laser, a Streak SRM 6, and two Machine Guns is a lot of gun for a 'Mech this size and it's also too expensive because of it.  The Machine Guns would be better as almost literally anything else, especially since there's a full ton of ammo and the ammo is in the opposite torso, opening two locations to sudden catastrophic failure.  With 11 doubles, running and firing all of the "main" guns (pulses, large, Streak) is +2 if the Streak fails to lock, and +6 if it doesn't.  Jumping is correspondingly higher.  With a 'Mech even a single MP slower than this that'd be horrific, but instead it's merely inconvenient, and at least you did a bunch of damage if it did happen.  Save the MASC for the next turn, though, if you can afford it, just in case.  At 2298 this is too expensive for what it brings to the table.  It's not bad but there are at least three other Shadow Cats I'd take first, off the top of my head without even looking ahead in this volume.  C-

Shadow Cat E: lol sure, okay.  Two Improved Heavy Large Lasers, a bunch more heat sinks (17 total), and at least two Coolant Pods is hilarious.  You don't even really need the coolant pods unless you're keeping a very high burn time with the lasers.  Running and firing both is +4, and you can sink up to 51 with each coolant pod.  Jumping max distance and firing both is +8, which is just too high to be a good play in most matchups, but you aren't required to jump max distance to keep a good TMM.  Jumping five and firing both lasers will put you right on the razor's edge of targeting penalties due to heat, and doing it again on the next turn (or a full distance jump, it doesn't really matter) will both keep you from suffering maneuverability loss, but also the net +15 heat you get up to will be fully dissipated almost exactly.  Not bad, whoever designed this one, not bad (I promise it wasn't me.  I would be stroking my own ego much more openly).  More expensive than the T that I would rather take at 2084, but that's usable as long as you're playing fairly cagey with it and don't expect miracles on the first turn of shooting.  Range is its only real limitation, largely due to the associated accuracy at midrange.  B+

Shadow Cat E: This would be my favorite Shadow Cat if it wasn't so expensive.  With twin Improved Heavy Mediums, ER Medium Pulses, and Streak SRM 6s (two tons ammo) tied to a Target Computer, this ticks every box individually between punching holes, seeking crits, doing lots of damage, and being very accurate.  The only thing it's truly missing is range, and the ammo is split in potentially vulnerable fashion between both side torsos.  They're relatively well padded for a Shadow Cat, though, so that's less of a concern than it could be.  The bigger concern is that heat is tricky, due entirely to the Streaks.  There are 11 doubles here, and all four energy guns will get you to +6 at a run, which is not perfect but is fine, but +10 on a jump into a vulnerable rear arc to take advantage of the targeting computer is a real possibility with the ability to jump away to cool off the next turn.  Firing the streaks in those circumstances is... unwise.  Firing them instead of a single Improved Heavy Medium on bad numbers means that even if you hit with both you're looking at a +7, and more realistically you're looking at a +3 or even a slight sink at -1.  It's a bit odd to juggle but it's configurable enough you can work with it.  The biggest downside is that it's 2408 BV for what is still ultimately a Shadow Cat, with all the durability that implies.  It's definitely the most interesting Shadow Cat to use so far, though, and I give it props for that.  It also hits like a truck.  B+

Shadow Cat J: For when every single person on the battlefield needs to die messily, including your pilot.  There's a HAG/20 here for long range, and six AP Gauss Rifles split between two locations for short range.  The damage is good, but the odds of your pilot taking multiple ammo explosions in a game is dangerously high, and that's a great way to lose a 'Mech.  There's enough ammo for the HAG, but the AP Gauss actually start to run low if the fight goes too long.  There's also an Active Probe here.  Heat is frigid with the base 10 doubles.  The BV is a good one, coming in at only 1802, and that keeps it higher on this list than it might be otherwise.  Just don't get shot, duh.  C+

Shadow Cat M: Two Large Pulse Lasers, two ER Medium Lasers.  The Shadow Cat, distilled to the most boring way to use it.  Large Pulse Lasers are good, and you have the heat to use both at a jump all day long (+0, thanks to 13 doubles).  The ER Mediums are the truest definition of "backup weapons" I've seen in a long time.  You can use one at a run (+1), you should not be using two at a run (+6), and you can use all guns on a jump to go to +10 but there's not a good way to sink that heat again that doesn't rely on dropping a Large Pulse later, and that's something you want to avoid doing.  Why am I talking like the only thing this config should ever do is jump and fire pulse lasers at 14 hexes?  Because at 2438 BV you had damn well better be making it last as long as possible.  It's individually effective but I find it both too limited and too expensive to be something I want to take with me.  You're paying almost 600 more BV for this than the T.  That's the difference between a Timber Wolf A and a Timber Wolf B.  Spend accordingly. D

Vapor Eagle (Goshawk): Damn parentheses are back.  There's very little to say here that hasn't been covered before somewhere.  A Large Pulse, three Medium Pulse, four Machine Guns, two Streak SRM 2s, and a Targeting Computer.  It's one of the ur-examples of the jumpy pulse+TC boat.  I don't like the ammo based weapons, honestly, especially the ones that actually ended up being here.  They're cumulatively 4.5 tons of extra cruft, which is right around what I'd love to replace (in the 3100s) with a single Streak SRM 6 and CASE II.  Ah well.  Little bit early for that.  It's 2368 and probably worth it, but I have no meaningful attachment or affection for this 'Mech, and it blends comfortably into the background of Clan secondline designs I don't use.  A- for capability, C- for interest.

Vapor Eagle (Goshawk) 2: Oh, wait, hold on, I like this one.  The Large Pulse, a Medium Pulse, and the Streaks are gone (but the Machine Guns are still here, damn) in order to fit an Ultra AC/10 with two tons of ammo.  That's more like it.  There's still a Targeting Computer on board, too.  The BV drops to 1989 and the heat management becomes absolutely trivial which is personally a mixed blessing but I appreciate having used a UAC/10 to do it.  I like this one a lot better, even if it's arguably less individually capable.  B+

Vapor Eagle (Goshawk) 5: I'm torn on this one.  I like it better than the (Standard) but much worse than the 2, and the reason it splits the difference is entirely different based on where it's coming from.  It's significantly less boring than the (Standard) with an LRM 20 and Artemis IV (with three tons of ammo) rather than the Large Pulse, and it trades the rest of the missiles for a fourth Medium Pulse Laser.  The Machine Guns are still there, though.  It's also significantly more expensive than both other variants so far, up to 2572, which is way more than I want to pay for this.  Heat is simultaneously easier to manage than the Standard without the unreliable Streaks, but harder to manage than the 2 on account of it actually being able to overheat.  Running and firing all guns is +4, which is pretty much the sweet spot, and you can drop pulse lasers or the LRM to fine tune.  The price tag is really the thing I don't like, though, and it's very hard to ignore that.  B-

Vapor Eagle (Goshawk) 6: Who let this guy design 'Mechs again?  UAC/2s aren't good, two of them is terrible.  There's enough to still at least force a PSR here in the form of ER Mediums (also making a reappearance is the TC and the MGs), but consider you could instead have a 2 for 30 points more.  D-

Vapo Eagle (Goshawk) 7: Hey you wanna talk about overpriced?  We had the Dominator and the Thresher Mk II earlier in the series but this thing is right up there with it.  We have: A-Pods (?!), a Plasma Cannon with one ton of ammo (?), ten Micro Pulse Lasers, an ER PPC, and a Targeting Computer.  We also have both MASC and a Supercharger but no jump jets.  We have nowhere near the heat sinks to use all these guns at the same time, and realistically you're going to be leaving the Plasma Cannon off in perpetuity and also toggling Micro Pulses off and on to fine-tune heat.  That's the good news, it's easy to fine-tune that heat.  The bad news is that you pay 2876 BV for this thing.  You are welcome to have this record sheet, I will take the Timber Wolf A instead.  I'm actually a little bit annoyed at this variant because I want to love it a lot, and it makes design choices that I find genuinely intriguing (besides the A-Pods).  But that price is awfulD

Inferno INF-NO: The Inner Sphere breaks into the OmniMech market for this volume, and it's a damn good one.  We have two Medium Re-engineered Lasers, which I like, a Heavy PPC, which I like, and two MML 5s, which I am merely ambivalent on.  This all comes on a very well armored 75 tonner with a Standard Engine and a Compact Gyro.  The Heavy PPC is in the Center Torso.  The MML ammo is protected by CASE II.  The arms are completely free for punching things, which is actually a good thing to be able to do when your punches do 8 damage.  Seventeen doubles means heat is +1 at a run for all guns, which makes this an excellent 'Mech if your goal is to simply stop up the field with armored bricks that don't slow down or get tired.  Hell yeah.  The BV is only 1597, which is very good for what you're getting here.  I feel similarly to this that I do to the Orion, where you are paying not a lot for a very sturdy brick, and its ability to smash windows is a handy bonus rather than why you have one.  A+

Inferno INF-NOA:  This config does more big hits than the Prime, but I don't think it's the better config all things considered.  We have an ER PPC, a Gauss Rifle with two tons of ammo (protected by CASE II), and we have two Medium X-Pulse Lasers.  Firing all guns at a run is +6 (12 doubles), dropping one Medium X-Pulse is neutral, dropping both is -6.  I would like that more if it didn't involve MP penalties, but it isn't awful.  The BV here is 1846 and that's still relatively reasonable but at the end of the day the more expensive configs are directly coming out of the total points you can spend putting huge slabs of armor down on the table.  B

Inferno INF-NOB: This is a much more dedicated long range config, with two LRM 15s (four tons ammo; all CASE II protected) and an ER PPC.  There are technically two ER Small Lasers here but you probably shouldn't use them.  Thirteen doubles means it's heat neutral at a walk.  There's not much to say about this one.  BV is 1658, which is broadly favorable to most flavors of Catapult for more benefit particularly in the durability department.  B+

Inferno INF-NOC: I feel like this config is trying just a little bit too hard.  We have two MML 5s (decent), three ER Medium Lasers (okay), and a Thunderbolt 15 (unusual).  There's enough ammo for all launchers, at least, but the Thunderbolt (correctly) makes the choice to have all the ammo in the side torsos while the launcher is in the center.  It's an amusing image, but I don't like that you can lose all the ammo to damage before the weapon is hit.  There's not a better way to do it here that doesn't fundamentally change the 'Mech, but it's still a bit annoying.  The only thing that the Thunderbolt has over the Gauss is the ability to use indirect fire, and while you have the ammo for it, lobbing headcappers over hills sounds like a lot better than it actually is.  The BV at 1698 just feels worse than the B, even if they're broadly similar in capability.  C

Inferno INF-NOR: Unpopular opinion time: I don't like this config.  It's very dangerous and it will keep shooting for a very long time, but it's also over 50% more expensive than the Prime.  There are two Clan ER Larges, one Clan ER PPC, and a Targeting Computer, plus a pair of SRM 6s that share a tone of ammo.  Individually very capable, good show, and it's amusing to see all the big guns crammed into the center torso like that, but I'm not a fan of it at the price point.  That isn't to say it's bad, it isn't, just that this isn't why I'm bringing an Inferno.  Instead it's "merely" going to be well above average.  A-

Executioner (Gladiator) T: There's only so much you can do here while staying WYSIWYG.  I don't like the Machine Guns or the full ton of ammo, but I do like the ER Large Pulse Lasers and the LB-10X.  This doesn't solve the problem where the side torsos are very thin, and it pays a lot of BV for the MASC and jump jets, but that's a problem with the Executioner and not the, er, execution of this config.  There's also an ECM Suite here that isn't nothing.  Being heat neutral when jumping is arguably over sinked, but the only thing you could really do with it is turn the Machine Guns into anything else, and then you're not oversinked anymore in the opposite direction.  At 2558 this is one of the more reasonable Executioner configs and it's still not one I'd really take.  C

Executioner (Gladiator) F: They picked a good letter for this one.  Two Large Pulse Lasers and an ER PPC tied to a Targeting Computer, and then also a Supercharger to get to that damned ten hex run.  Fairly well sinked even while jumping (+3).  This would be a good 'Mech if it was six hundred BV cheaper.  At 3606 it's extortion.  F

Executioner (Gladiator) G: It's an Executioner that's over 3800 BV (3825).  I frankly don't care at all what's on this thing, I will never field it for any reason.  F

Executioner (Gladiator) I: Two Streak SRM 6s, two Improved Heavy Larges, a Targeting Computer, and an ECM Suite.  And that 10 hex run again thanks to a Supercharger.  This time we're all the way back down to 3339 BV, which is close enough that it gets a gold star for trying really hard to be worth taking.  D

Executioner (Gladiator) J: This is the second reasonably costed Executioner config, which is saying something because it's still 2891 for this thing.  It has a HAG/40 and three SRM 6s, which sounds impressive and honestly isn't particularly bad.  There's a reasonable amount of HAG ammo, and a reasonable amount of SRM ammo.  The HAG is split between the arm and torso, which is a major downside, but you don't really have the room to mess with it otherwise.  The bigger problem is that the HAG is unprotected by CASE II, which is one thing that would make this config significantly better.  As is, it gets the highest honor I'm capable of bestowing on an Executioner.  C

Executioner (Gladiator) L: Two ER Large Lasers, two Streak LRM 15s with four tons of ammo.  Over 3000 BV (3132).  Eurgh.  F

'Mechs by rating:

F: 3
D: 5
C: 7
B: 7
A: 4
S: none

Cumulative 'Mechs by rating (series):

F: 15
D: 42
C: 68
B: 50
A: 35
S: 4
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Scotty

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Perhaps some of these reviews and comments should be collated and attached to the appropriate "of the Weeks"?

I believe I'm going to run up against the moratorium for volumes 19-24, so this is likely not going to be possible at least for a little while.  I'm honestly not sure whether I should be doing those ones at all, but that's a problem for Scotty in three weeks.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Mendrugo

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The Goshawk 7 is modeled on what's seen of the Fidelis Goshawk featured in Surrender Your Dreams.  That's how the Custos rolls.

The weapon loadout was set up so that it could advantageously engage the combined arms forces commonly fielded by the factions outside the Fortress Walls.  The plasma cannon was saved for taking out tanks, and the A-Pods for clearing out infantry.

In a pinch, the plasma cannon can also be used to sterilize the cockpit of any downed Fidelis MechWarrior, to prevent the discovery of Smoke Jaguar genes.
« Last Edit: 13 January 2022, 04:25:54 by Mendrugo »
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Nibs

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Scotty, thanks for the write-ups! I'm really enjoying reading through them (informative and funny).

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I think the thing I'm most taking away from this is that BV2 is still apparently very badly flawed, if stuff is being apparently this grossly over-costed. If something costs neary 4000 BV, then it ought to be capable of taking on twice its own BV. (So, like the Gladiator G should be able to take on three stock Warhammer 6Rs and expect to not quite win.)



(I think BT also shot itself in the foot a long time ago, though by the insistance on set unit sizes (4/5/6), since it means in inherently more difficult to use a costig system with the added constrints. I notably find it a longer job per bit-count working out a BattleTech game than I do, say, my starship game, which while it still requires you to think about unit structure, not having a rigid one makes it much easier to squeeze stuff in.

Yes, you probably could just pretend stuff is under-strength or over-strength, but how many of us actually do that? No, really, serious question, DOES anyone do that on a regular basis?)

nckestrel

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Yes, I do that.
Alpha Strike Introduction resources
Left of Center blog - Tukayyid Expanded Random Unit Tables, Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets

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Pretty good reviews Scotty. The only thing is that everytime i read someone complaining about MG, i have flashbacks to the multiple times i have to face infantry. There are some very nasty infantry options out there. Thats why i like MG, Flamers and Plasma Rifles.
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+1
Played mostly in a campaign framework, and though dropship designs influence unit structures, none of our players would hesitate to mix and match task groups as needed, including numbers as well as combined arms. Some took their TOE from different, real life of fictional armies or other branches as the basis, but most assigned/attached/detached parts of their units by tasks (=scenarios) on hand on the strategic map (like guarding camp or arty, recon, holding the main line, raiding etc) once the campaign began and developed.
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Psycho

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If something costs neary 4000 BV, then it ought to be capable of taking on twice its own BV.

Shouldn't the point be that it could take on a force of equal BV with a reasonable chance of winning?

nckestrel

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Shouldn't the point be that it could take on a force of equal BV with a reasonable chance of winning?
I think that's what he meant but misspoke.  In his example, three WHM-6Rs are 1,299 BV * 3 = 3,897 BV.  Gladiator G is 3,825 BV.  Ie. Nearly equal BV.

But I think the example is picking at specifics. Yes, I think jumping and masc/supercharger are overcosted currently in BV. And the Gladiator G has both. I don't think that's a throw out the whole system.


Alpha Strike Introduction resources
Left of Center blog - Tukayyid Expanded Random Unit Tables, Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets

nova_dew

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Also played odd sizes , when i had chance to play, hell even in universe units don't stick to them due to casualties and other stuffs, hey my 1st made up assault trinary is at 27% in this time frame, so they can only field 4 Mech's.
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jasonf

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I think the thing I'm most taking away from this is that BV2 is still apparently very badly flawed, if stuff is being apparently this grossly over-costed. If something costs neary 4000 BV, then it ought to be capable of taking on twice its own BV. (So, like the Gladiator G should be able to take on three stock Warhammer 6Rs and expect to not quite win.)

Not necessarily. Even if everything in the BV2 system was perfectly balanced, you will still have designs where the mixing and matching individual components just didn't work well and the total BV2 cost just wasn't worth it relative to another 'Mech that performed the same role for less BV.

For example, imagine a Longbow with MASC vs. a Longbow without MASC. If all anyone does with a Longbow is park it behind a hill and shoot 50 LRMs/turn, then the MASC is just wasteful BV and is likely to get a low Scotty rating.