Author Topic: Recognition Guide: ilClan Discussion Part 5 - Comes With Everything You See Here  (Read 153327 times)

Scotty

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This guide is refreshingly lighter on record sheets than 12, so here we go with Recognition Guide: IlClan Volume 13:

Piranha 5: The Piranha concept is something we've actually already seen in a couple of other 'Mechs this series.  A shitload of Machine Guns (12) , plus some additional firepower.  The 5 actually has a leg up on firepower compared to most of the others we've seen, with paired Improved Heavy Medium Lasers and an ER Small Laser.  This makes its heat management very simply: just tape down the triggers.  Speed is good at 9/14[18], and though my danger sense is tingling at how close that comes to a new BV step, for whatever reason the 5 is fairly reasonable for a 'Mech going that fast with paired iHMLs at 1132.  This is ultimately still a 20 tonner we're talking about, though, and while the armor is better than the Fire Moth that's a lot like saying a cardboard box is tougher than a tissue box.  There's a full ton of MG ammo and I honestly wish we'd only gotten half of that, even though two tons is "only" good for 16 and change turns of shooting.  I don't expect a Piranha at 3 hexes or closer to last that long, and it'd have been neat to have that ER Small Laser bumped into another bigger laser.  It's not a variant I'm going to go out of my way to pick, but it's serviceable.  C

Stinger STG-3Gb: It's thoughtful to put the best Stinger right here at the front.  It's 20 tons, moves 7/11/7 with an XL Engine, has enough armor that that's only usually fatal instead of always fatal, and the armament is three Medium Lasers and a Small Laser.  Not enough to force a PSR, barely, and even with the jump jets it runs cold thanks to ten doubles.  The BV is the best part for a jumpy +4 TMM with a brace of lasers at 674.  There are better bugs out there, there are even better Royal bugs out there, but this one is genuinely pretty good.  B

Stinger STG-4G: This one is also decent.  There are a few things that make it less attractive, namely we have a bit less armor here but still have an XL Engine, but we've also traded all the guns plus a jump jet to have paired Medium Pulse Lasers.  I'm normally gung-ho on MPLs, but losing the +4 jump TMM is a hefty price to pay for it.  Fortunately the actual price you pay for this variant is 541, which is cheap as hell.  I tend to value cheap bugs a lot higher than your average player, I wager, and this is a quality cheap bug, even if I think the 3Gb is better.  B-

Stinger STG-5G: See above, but Light PPC with Capacitor.  The ability to put out 10 point hits, albeit only every other turn, is an interesting one, and unlike most capacitors I don't dislike this one.  It's not one I'd take, partly again because of the not-max number of jump jets, but this variant is a capable skirmisher in the actually skirmishing sense of the word, rather than the trading shots at marginal advantage sense of the word.  BV at 614 puts it in between the 3Gb and the 4G, but I'd probably take either of those others first.  C+

Stinger STG-5M: Back down to 6/9/6 is a drag, but not unexpected.  That is the traditional Stinger speed, after all.  The weapons are a huge disappointment in the form of one Medium Laser, one Flamer, and an AMS with a ton of ammo.  If the AMS could protect friendly units this would be an excellent pick, but it can't so it isn't.  The ammo is unprotected in the right torso more because of tonnage issues than anything else.  I wish you could take AMS ammo in half tons, because there's very little chance that this bug survives 12 successful missile attacks against it on 12 separate turns.  We're also back to a Standard engine, but the armor isn't meaningfully improved and you're a mission kill under pretty much the same circumstances that the other variants so far would be actual kills.  You also have single heat sinks, meaning if you're in Flamer range you can start getting toasty.  Otherwise you still run fairly cool.  The BV is the only bright spot at 432, but the drop doesn't make up for losing a lot of capability.  C-

Stinger STG-6G: Back up to 7/11/7 is a good thing.  We're also back up to an XL Engine to make it fit, but I've made my opinion on that clear.  Having a Medium X-Pulse Laser for a main gun rules.  The biggest downside is the center torso mounted half ton of ammo for the pair of Machine Guns.  This would be better as almost anything else, up to and including ER Smalls and armor, so I'm fairly disappointed in it but understand why it had to be.  The BV at 503 is pretty good for something that can credibly contribute from 9 hexes, and it won't overheat basically ever.  Solid.  B

Stinger STG-6M: Less solid.  It's the 5M, 6/9/6 and Standard engine included, but now the guns are all one tech level up.  ER Flamer, ER Medium Laser, Laser AMS.  This does mean the ammo problem is gone, and the ER Flamer is long enough range to actually be useful on occasion (I know, I'm surprised too).  All equipment activating and jumping will get your heat gauge to move (+2), but this is small enough that you can simply not use the ER Flamer - or better yet, not get shot at by missiles - to get it back down to zero.  I wasn't a fan of the 5M, but this is basically the perfect upgrade to it, in the sense that it does everything the 5M does, better, longer, and it does it for only marginal cost increase.  BV is identical to the 6G at 503, and honestly at that point you're picking based on mission profile.  I'd still give the tie to the 6G but it's closer than it could be.  B-

Stinger STG-6R: This is the fastest Stinger I think we've seen, at 8/12/8.  This isn't terrible, but I'm not sold on the weapons here.  We have an ER Medium Laser (fine) and two Heavy Machine Guns with a half ton of ammo.  Part of this is the guns themselves - only having a two hex range is not ideal - and part of it is that the ammo is in the center torso with no CASE II.  That'd solve my biggest complaint immediately.  BV at 454 is cheap for something this fast, but I think I'd genuinely rather take the Wasp 5A, especially with the Wasp's heavier armor.  B-

Firestorm: I... oy.  There are a lot of issues I have with this 'Mech, and a lot of them are my issues but I'm writing this review so you get to listen to them.  First, we have 5/8[10], which is a terrible start, and then we have /7 on top of that.  I'm okay with not maximizing the Improved Jump Jets here, but that's a shitload of BV to be spending on this thing before we've even started talking about anything else.  The [10] comes from the worse version of speed boosting, too, with MASC in the left torso.  Armor is perfectly serviceable, even good, for a 50 ton 'Mech, and there's no weirdness in coverage except maybe the rear torsos are a bit heavy.  Not important.  The guns are definitely built with a purpose.  We have a pair of Clan ER Medium Laser, a Micro Pulse Laser, and then we have a Clan Flamer, a Plasma Cannon, and a Plasma Rifle.  The Cannon has one ton of ammo, the Rifle has two.  This is the correct amount of ammo to give each gun, but it's a weird set of guns to use in the first place.  The weapons are capable of forcing a PSR but not much more than that, which is a feat considering that we're paying 2330 BV for this thing.  Its ability to dish out external heat is impressive, but these weapons just do not deal enough damage to 'Mechs to warrant that kind of price tag in a game I'm likely to play.  The "worst" part is that there's not anything here to fix: this 'Mech was purpose built for a single role, and it does that role very well.  It will burninate the countryside, even if it won't trigger maximum external heat on average for a 'Mech (3d6 + 2 averages around 13 heat).  It also overheats by a fair amount if you're using all those guns, though fortunately just the Plasma Rifle and the ER Mediums is usable at a run for -2, and at a jump for what I think is -1 at a jump?  I'm not certain whether 7 IJJs generates 3 or 4 heat off the top of my head, but it's definitely at least 3 so we're sticking with -1.  That's workable, even if it's not ideal.    This role just isn't something I find useful.  D

Hunchback IIC 5: What if we took a Hunchback IIC, and we fixed the icing overheating and ammo problem?  You get this.  None of the other problems have been fixed, mostly because they're not problems from a logistical standpoint.  It's very scary for its BV at 1534, but it will still happily run out of ammo and die very quickly.  Usually after having made something else hurt real bad.  Good for trading up, though a bit slow.  B

Glass Spider (Galahad): Two Gauss Rifles with five tons of ammo, moving 4/6 with a Standard Engine.  Armor is good for its size.  There are no backup guns, and the biggest problem by far is that the left torso is completely empty so crits will immediately start transferring to the center torso if they happen.  That's a pretty big problem, but it's one that comes up infrequently so it gets a bit of a pass here.  It's expensive at 1825 for what it does, I think, but this is also about as cheap as you can get paired headcappers and not have them be outright crippled by heat or bad armor, so you take what you can get.  You will die before overheating matters.  B

Glass Spider (Galahad) 2: We've replaced the big guns with two Large Pulse Lasers, two Medium Pulse Lasers, three Small Pulse Lasers, and a Targeting Computer.  Also enough heat sinks (16 doubles) to fire every single one of them at a run (+2).  Might as well have a section on the front of the big dish that says "this side toward enemy".  Doesn't take a lot of imagination to run, but it's effective.  BV at 2038 is getting higher but this is an extremely accurate way to force PSRs and it's cheaper than most ways to do that that are as armored as it is.  The secondary guns don't hurt, either.  Speed is the only serious weakness it has at 4/6.  B+

Glass Spider (Galahad) 4: There are things about this variant I like and things I don't like.  I like HAG/20s with Targeting Computers, that part is neat.  The seven tons of HAG ammo is also great, you can just hold down the triggers all day long on whatever you feel like.  The secondary guns consisting of three ER Small Lasers are fine.  There's also a Supercharger on here, to alleviate some of the speed problems.  The downsides we've picked up are that this requires an XL Engine, sharply cutting durability, and that it's now expensive at 2309.  The expense alone keeps me away from it, the Standard and 2 are just better deals.  For once the speed boost probably isn't to blame for the cost issues.  C

Supernova 5: Those of you who have been reading for a while know that there are a few things that I really dislike, or at least would prefer not to have.  One of those things is being very slow.  Another is being very expensive.  A third is having a lot of overheat that prevents using a battery of similar-range weapons with similar use-cases.  This variant is a large middle finger raised directly to my face, because it does all of those things and it's still very, very good.  The Supernova 5 is a 3/5/3 90 tonner with a Standard Engine (this helps a lot) that is exactly three points shy of max armor.  It mounts six, count 'em, six Clan ER Large Lasers.  This is frankly a ridiculous amount of ER Large Lasers.  There are 24 doubles on this machine meaning it can handle four of them with only movement heat generated.  Oh, wait, what's this?  A Coolant Pod?  No, four Coolant Pods.  Each Coolant Pod boosts dissipation by 1 per heat sink, meaning that when one is used the dissipation jumps from 48 to 72.  Not coincidentally, this is exactly how much heat firing six ER Large Lasers generates.  Meaning you have four turns, and it's your choice when you want those turns to be, of wielding the collective might of an Awesome in each hand and suffering jack and/or shit for heat penalties for it.  That's nuts.  And even when you are out of Coolant Pods, you are still putting four of them downrange each turn.  The pricetag here is 3075 BV, and damn it all at that price it's still one of the best Assault 'Mechs in the game.  S

Dire Wolf (Daishi) T: There's a lot going on here, so one minute while I list all of the guns this thing has.  Two HAG/20s, four ER Medium Lasers, four Medium Pulse Lasers, a Streak LRM 10 and a Light Active Probe.  There's also a Supercharger.  That's a lot of Medium Lasers and frankly they're efficient enough that it's hard to be a bad 'Mech when you have that many.  There are 20 doubles here and that's enough dissipation to handle the long range guns with room to spare, plus the ER Mediums, and all still end up at -6 if the Streak locks successfully.  Once the MPLs enter range we're looking at something toastier, around +10, but you can drop some longer range guns to make that more palatable.  There are six tons of ammo for the HAGs, and honestly some of the biggest issue here is that if a HAG takes a hit you lose basically half the offense of the entire 'Mech in one go.  That's a vulnerability that can be played into, but at the end of the day you're still piloting a very large and very dangerous 100 ton Assault 'Mech.  The cost here is the issue.  At 3317 it's way too expensive, and that limits its use especially against one of the configs coming up.  B-

Dire Wolf (Daishi) E: Ah, speaking of.  Two LB-10Xs, a Streak LRM 10, and eight Medium Pulse Lasers.  There's also a Watchdog here for EWAR purposes.  Eight MPLs is nuts, and this thing is basically immune to strikers and backstabbers with the ability to flip its arms.  Nothing is safe against eight MPLs.  Heat management is also very easy, generating +4 at a run if the Streak isn't fired, and completely neutral when firing the MPLs.  There are four tons of ammo for the LB-10Xs and one for the Streaks, split between side torsos.  Both ammo groups are protected by CASE II.  The only weakness here is how slow a Dire Wolf is, and a little bit the range on the guns, but anything within 12 hexes is about to have a very bad day.  It's cheap enough to do it, too, at 2814.  Not that you need to, but you can afford skill increases (particularly to piloting) to offset the odds of being knocked over and slowed down even further.  This is the best Dire Wolf config, and it isn't close.  A+

Dire Wolf (Daishi) X: I ain't typing all that.  Go read the Tech Manual example 'Mech for this one.  The short version here is that none of these guns work together at all, you have way too many tons of ammo (10, by my count), and even a low BV (2645, in this case low is relative) doesn't save you from having no purpose on a battlefield.  F

'Mechs by rating:

F: 1
D: 1
C: 4
B: 9
A: 1
S: 1

Cumulative 'Mechs by rating (series):

F: 22
D: 53
C: 94
B: 79
A: 57
S: 7
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Starfury

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The Periphery became far nastier with the Recguides.  The Shadow Hawk, the Phoenix Hawk, and the Highander 740 variants alone are worth it, not counting the Hermit Crab, the Ostroc, or the Longbow for the general list.  The larger powers like the Fronc Reaches, the Filvelt Coalition, the Calderon Protectorate, and especially the Marian Hegemony have an incredible list for the DA. The Taurians and the Magistracy gained even more... All of this new stuff has forced some major changes in the MUL. TL:DR, it's a good day to be a Periphery player in the Republic to Dark Age eras. 

Also, the Shadow Hawk 5S is yet another Battletechnology design sneaking in. It was built as a special forces FC/LC mech in the early 3050s to aid Lyran units on raids against Clan opponents...

nckestrel

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I now hate the Firestorm.  Jumps 7 with that annoying narrow quirk. Even when I hit it, I barely do any damage. Just so frustratingly annoying.
I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying it should be banished from my sight.
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Scotty

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I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying it should be banished from my sight.

Finally, someone who gets it
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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When I saw the name I thought the Firestorm would be the little brother of the Inferno.

Then I saw the stats and realized it was the little brother of the Dumbwaiter.

The Daishi X is a trainer mech.  Except that nobody would ever waste a Daishi by using it as a trainer.
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Jellico

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Except that nobody would ever waste a Daishi by using it as a trainer.
Wolf's Dragoons?

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I have used the Supernova 5 three times in MM now, and tonight on the table . . . I had a IS force of a Orion 3 series (LGR?) and stealth Battlemaster both back up from it as the opposing player in the melee called it a cheat mech for throwing that much damage.  But I paid a tad over 4k BV for it in a 6k game, it had better be that awesome.

And it was.  I ended up drawing fire from those two mechs consistently, had him swing his Locust in behind (meet my BA), and attracted a shot from a Nova w/ it's ERPPC.  If the damage had spread evenly- for some reason my oppo, when he could hit, was hitting my LT . . . eventually those 5 pt hits added up but both Coolant Pods were used by that point.  My CT still had about 2/3rds the armor and the RT, legs, and RA had only take 5 or 6 points of damage.

If we had kept playing, yeah I might have lost most the stuff on the left side, but the Nova also killed the Locust, I killed the Nova, and both the Orion and Battlemaster were open on the torsos.  Initiative was preventing my Eris from going crit fishing w/ MMLs and SXPL.
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Valkerie

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Going back a bit, the SHD-5M was my favorite version of the Shadow Hawk (even with the one ton of LRM ammo), and the Royal coming in as a close second.  The SHD-7H now owns the top slot.

I love the Shadow Hawk because it is a great team player.  Gotta go one on one with it, yeah, that's not great.  But in the right lances, its jack-of-all-trades reputation really shines.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Wolf's Dragoons?

Honestly, I doubt even they had so many Daishis that they could afford to use them for such a purpose.
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BrianDavion

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Wolf's Dragoons?

It should be noted that wasn't a trainer so much as a defacto trial of position, something the wolf clan seem to use the dire wolf for as well
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A Dire Wolf would end up a training mech like any other, when it has been so pieced back together it is mechanically unsound.  Mostly b/c unlike combat, you stand a far lower chance of dying if some part of it craps out again.  Think of the Viper that was pieced together junk in Roar of Honor.
Colt Ward
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So which is better... the Dire Wolf Prime or the Dire Wolf T?

And my kingdom for a Radical Heat Sink on the Supernova 5...
« Last Edit: 19 January 2022, 01:57:06 by Natasha Kerensky »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Depends on the engagement range.  The Prime is superior at 13+ hexes, the T at 12 or fewer.
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Scotty

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So which is better... the Dire Wolf Prime or the Dire Wolf T?

And my kingdom for a Radical Heat Sink on the Supernova 5...

Prime, on account of the approximately six hundred BV difference.

I'm also jonesing for a Supernova 6 with Radical Heat Sinks, and am almost certain the only reason it didn't happen in this volume is that RHS isn't a BattleMech Manual piece of equipment.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Plop that thing down on the table and watch as everyone on the other side springs their own coolant leak.
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Colt Ward

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I'm also jonesing for a Supernova 6 with Radical Heat Sinks, and am almost certain the only reason it didn't happen in this volume is that RHS isn't a BattleMech Manual piece of equipment.

Considering they take up the same tonnage and the RHS is a crit less?  Yeah, easily doable though I think a ES crit could have to switch torsos.  But if we got a separate RS offering, I think the all the old flashbulb heat hogs like the Warhawk, Flashman, Black Knight, Crab, Supernova, and, Nova all scream for a RHS version.
Colt Ward
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Huntsman (Nobori-nin) G: The things that are not cool at all are the Retractable Blade in the right arm (uh, why?) and the Supercharger to take this 'Mech to the dreaded 5/8[10]/5 movement profile.

Maybe you've already explained it, but why do you dread 5/8[10]/5 movement?
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Battletech transport rules take a very feline approach to moving troops in a combat zone: If they fits, they ships.

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your BT experience. Now what? (Thanks Sartis!)

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All of the BV cost of getting a +4 TMM, negligible benefit since you have to pop the speed booster (sometimes dangerous) to get it and have to run basically in a straight line.

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Colt Ward

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And to pile it on, it seems like a lot that do that through MASC or Omnis that add Supercharger have JJs.
Colt Ward
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MarauderD

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Maybe you've already explained it, but why do you dread 5/8[10]/5 movement?

On top of what Sartris said, which is the main reason--all these 6/9[12]/6 types pay extra BV to be able to jump AS WELL as the BV for the MASCED movement, when you can only do one at a time.  So you are paying a premium twice that you can only use once per turn.  BV would be lower if you just moved 7/11 and called it a day. 

Two bites at the apple at payment, but only one bite for the person who payed the BV, makes it an 'ouchy' proposition to pay for it and put it in your forces, so to speak.

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Question.  Barring the combined Guide coming out in a printed form.   Are there going be errant fixes done to the PDFs that's already released?
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I now hate the Firestorm.  Jumps 7 with that annoying narrow quirk. Even when I hit it, I barely do any damage. Just so frustratingly annoying.
I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying it should be banished from my sight.

This gets my attention. I'm a big fan of things that distract players(without going to full Being A Jerk trolling), and this sounds right up my alley. Gonna have to give it a test drive to see if it's 2300 BV worth of distraction...
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Colt Ward

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Actually had the time to read Scotty's last half of analysis on the Firestorm . . . while I absolutely agree with the MASC/JJ BV issue for driving up the cost along with the even JJ number problem, I think this thing's value will depend on what type of combat you expect to face.

In the BTU if you expect to be fighting a lot of infantry, BA, and armor- typically the bulk of a defender's forces!- then this is something you select for your attack force and plan to leave the Gargoyles as something more useful hitting mechs than the Prime.  Find that concentration of armor, battle armor, and infantry to melt down.  I have not faced fixed defenses with Plasma weapons, but do they get any sort of bonus against structures or armored/reinforced structures?  Heck, I do not even know what it takes to set them on fire just that Plasma weapons have a easier time setting stuff on fire.

To further extend on combined arms, I think folks tend to forget the paradigm shift Plasma weapons bring to anti-fighter work.  The ability to mess with aerofighter operations by causing them to overheat and lose control can absolutely throw a hitch in a defender's plans to use CAS, particularly b/c loss of control can cause that CAS unit to auger in.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Scotty

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There will be no ratings today, because I'm going to spend that time reading Tamar Rising.
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Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

MarauderD

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There will be no ratings today, because I'm going to spend that time reading Tamar Rising.

Seems fair!  Enjoy.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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There will be no ratings today, because I'm going to spend that time reading Tamar Rising.

Fair, as most of us are also spending that time reading Tamar Rising.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

five_corparty

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Going back a bit, the SHD-5M was my favorite version of the Shadow Hawk (even with the one ton of LRM ammo), and the Royal coming in as a close second.  The SHD-7H now owns the top slot.

I love the Shadow Hawk because it is a great team player.  Gotta go one on one with it, yeah, that's not great.  But in the right lances, its jack-of-all-trades reputation really shines.

I enjoyed writing the 5M into my Legacy story, but it's such a little-known design even continuity was like, "is this a typo? A shadowhawk with an LRM 20?"
Me: "oh it exists, my friends, it just kinda sucks." ;-) ha ha ha

Jellico

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There will be no ratings today, because I'm going to spend that time reading Tamar Rising.
How are we going to know if the Mechs in the Tamar Rising RATs are any good  :o

Luciora

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I remember it mostly from Crescent Hawks Revenge.  Never used it on tabletop.

Middcore

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The idea of any of the main-writeup TRO3050 variants being obscure is very weird to me.
I write BattleTech fanfics. You can find them all on ScribbleHub, and I welcome your comments.