Author Topic: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!  (Read 102480 times)

Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1230 on: 23 July 2023, 17:52:20 »
Which is not what I was suggesting.  The Crusader program had the most advances in the US for the 155mm system, it's FDC in fact let a single gun put 8 rounds on target in it's own ToT.  MLRS?  The pods are simple and pretty ruggedized, considering the Marines were first to field HIMARS (baby MLRS) I am sure they had some sort of plan for the pods being exposed to the elements of a amphib carrier.  MLRS launchers can also load and sling guided/extended MLRS pods along with a type of cruise missile thus giving the ship some flexibility.

Would the mounts/turrets be different than what the army uses?  Sure . . . but the weapon system would be close- my only concern is can the 155mm reach safely from where a ship might be positioned w/o constantly using rocket assisted & other more expensive rounds/charges.
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kato

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1231 on: 24 July 2023, 12:06:17 »
When the German Navy tried to put army guns on a ship.
Wasn't the only time btw.

This below picture is to my knowledge the only one showing the pontoon used in another weapons trial by the Bundeswehr:



This pontoon, in 2016, hosted a mortar section of an active army unit, which used it to fire towards the shore with their 120mm mortars as well as - provided by the trials agency - light artillery rockets from a distance of about 13 km / 7 nm.

The trial wasn't about the suitability of the pontoon of course. Instead it was used to test the C-RAM ability of four fully automated 35mm turrets installed on the beach. By firing live ammunition at them.

The defense guns didn't always hit either btw:

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1232 on: 24 July 2023, 12:22:04 »
MLRS?  The pods are simple and pretty ruggedized, considering the Marines were first to field HIMARS (baby MLRS) I am sure they had some sort of plan for the pods being exposed to the elements of a amphib carrier.  MLRS launchers can also load and sling guided/extended MLRS pods along with a type of cruise missile thus giving the ship some flexibility.
At the same time as the MONARC (PzH2000 155mm turret) trials the German Navy also considered mounting a MLRS launcher assembly on a frigate. As in the full 2-pod, 12-rocket variant.

The plan was relatively quickly abandoned since the launcher would have had to be heavily modified (as in designed completely differently) to counteract the rolling and similar movement of the ship. Even if using guided missiles.

For about a decade afterwards there were rumours and conspiracies that the design of the frigate still had the space reserved for the launcher, and that it was just temporarily re-used for a gym. :D

Sure . . . but the weapon system would be close- my only concern is can the 155mm reach safely from where a ship might be positioned w/o constantly using rocket assisted & other more expensive rounds/charges.
That's partially why Germany switched over to 127mm Vulcano. It also - from the MONARC trials - only took them another 19 years to decide on, procure, produce, fully introduce and qualify the ammunition  :rolleyes:

(Vulcano as introduced in the German Navy is a saboted sub-caliber projectile for 127mm guns with a prefragmented tungsten HE-FRAG shell, a range of 43-54 nm and configurations including simple altitude-fuze with GPS-based mid-course guidance, semi-active laser guided or IR homing terminal seeker)
« Last Edit: 24 July 2023, 12:24:01 by kato »

chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1233 on: 24 July 2023, 12:49:36 »
Which is not what I was suggesting.  The Crusader program had the most advances in the US for the 155mm system, it's FDC in fact let a single gun put 8 rounds on target in it's own ToT.  MLRS?  The pods are simple and pretty ruggedized, considering the Marines were first to field HIMARS (baby MLRS) I am sure they had some sort of plan for the pods being exposed to the elements of a amphib carrier.  MLRS launchers can also load and sling guided/extended MLRS pods along with a type of cruise missile thus giving the ship some flexibility.

Would the mounts/turrets be different than what the army uses?  Sure . . . but the weapon system would be close- my only concern is can the 155mm reach safely from where a ship might be positioned w/o constantly using rocket assisted & other more expensive rounds/charges.

I'm fairly certain that was just the navy's play in the GWOT-era budget fights. It's never seemed like an especially good argument, but they were playing with a pretty crummy hand compared to the other services. Among other things, it requires bringing an expensive, specialized blue-water asset into where it least wants to be - the littoral, within a limited area delimited by the range of the guns and areas they need to cover - all to use a single weapons system.

And of course, multiple-round simultaneous-impact is range-limited - it can only be used when engaging a target where it can be engaged using multiple combinations of propellant and gun angle/ballistic trajectories.

Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1234 on: 24 July 2023, 15:40:36 »
I'm fairly certain that was just the navy's play in the GWOT-era budget fights. It's never seemed like an especially good argument, but they were playing with a pretty crummy hand compared to the other services. Among other things, it requires bringing an expensive, specialized blue-water asset into where it least wants to be - the littoral, within a limited area delimited by the range of the guns and areas they need to cover - all to use a single weapons system.

And of course, multiple-round simultaneous-impact is range-limited - it can only be used when engaging a target where it can be engaged using multiple combinations of propellant and gun angle/ballistic trajectories.

Unless they re-commission the battlewagons, we do not have any surface ships with lots of guns for NGS.  For the current fleet guns, they are all smaller anyway IIRC and the ships are more focused on missiles.  NGS, and to a lesser extent MLRS, are cheaper than the guided missiles the Navy uses for most tasks.  NGS is cheaper to operate than the missile or carrier planes but yeah it needs to have a mission when not assigned to MEUs as NGS.

BUT . . . it would also being in range of shore guns should have some armor- which is again, not something modern USN ships do.

I sort of feel NGS for the Marines is the same sort of situation as the A-10 and the Fighter Mafia.
Colt Ward
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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1235 on: 24 July 2023, 15:52:08 »
Wasn't one main issues is that Fire Control for the Howler isn't navalized?  There was darn sophisticated fire controls controlling those big guns' weapons fire.   
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Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1236 on: 24 July 2023, 17:51:53 »
NGS for the Marines is quite a bit different than CAS for the Army.  The Air Force asserts Strike Fighters are better at CAS than A-10s.  The Navy knows better, sympathizes with the Marines, but follows the money anyway (there was an excellent article 30-some years ago by a Naval Engineer outlining all the reasons it was too expensive to modernize WWII battleships).  Not an ideal situation, but at least the Navy is honest about it!

Failure16

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1237 on: 24 July 2023, 18:09:34 »
To be fair, at least some in the USAF claim that strike fighters will last longer in the battlespace than A-10s, not that the former are simply better in every aspect. But, of course, some do say that, and they are knaves.

Look, I love A-10s as much as the next guy, but even GW1 showed they had limitations and the fighting in Ukraine has shown that A-10alogues (also known as Su-25s) have taken it on the chin going up against comprehensive (not necessarily state-of-the-art, either) air defenses.
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Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1238 on: 24 July 2023, 18:14:04 »
Su-25s are inferior to A-10s in every respect, but your point is NOT wrong, good sir!

Failure16

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1239 on: 24 July 2023, 20:13:06 »
Fair enough: an A-10/Su-25 comparison isn't fair...but they operate in the same mission profile and parameters and will ultimately face the same threats.

It is vital to get the aircrews back alive--the A-10 excels at that almost over any other airframe (see here). But if the airframe is trash or needs a complete overhaul using parts which are not available within the operating theater or operational timeline, the jet is gone, and is not there to support the missions that need to be fulfilled regardless. It's operational calculus, and that is a harsh mistress indeed.

But, you know. Back to ships.

Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
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Daryk

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1240 on: 24 July 2023, 20:25:17 »
That's one heck of a pic!  How on earth did they get that amazing shot? ???

Failure16

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1241 on: 24 July 2023, 20:35:00 »
Pretty sure it was from the dorsal turret gunner of the lead A-20. If it was, that pair must have been riding on each other's coattails. Rear gunners, even on dive bombers and TBFs, were expected to get in a strafing attack in a Parthian shot of sorts by that stage of the war.

Regardless, it happened off Wewak in March, 1944. Japanese merchant ship (and particularly, at that moment, it's mast) getting murdered.


EDIT: clarified technical terminology
« Last Edit: 29 July 2023, 10:08:51 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

Failure16

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1242 on: 24 July 2023, 20:46:19 »
As an addendum, this is what it looked like from the cockpit (a year earlier, the IJN destroyer Arashio about to be sunk in the Bismarck Sea; not the same event), where an entire infantry division was slaughtered by 63 bombers in an event that saw B-17s strafing men in the water.



Not a great day for the USAAF, in an emotional or moral sense. But a necessary one. No one in-theater seemed to think anything different. Especially the guys who went on to assault Lae later.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1243 on: 25 July 2023, 05:58:38 »
For a brief return to land warfare systems in naval vessels, I give you this:



From this Reddit thread.
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Grognard

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1244 on: 25 July 2023, 07:50:05 »
 :huh: Tankship? Shiptank?  :huh:



 :grin:

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I am Belch II

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1245 on: 25 July 2023, 09:08:05 »
:huh: Tankship? Shiptank?  :huh:



 :grin:

That is great.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1246 on: 25 July 2023, 09:58:20 »
NGS for the Marines is quite a bit different than CAS for the Army.  The Air Force asserts Strike Fighters are better at CAS than A-10s.  The Navy knows better, sympathizes with the Marines, but follows the money anyway (there was an excellent article 30-some years ago by a Naval Engineer outlining all the reasons it was too expensive to modernize WWII battleships).  Not an ideal situation, but at least the Navy is honest about it!

My point was really that they do not want to build a ship with NGS as the primary mission, with the perception that the job can be done by missiles or aircraft (or no longer needed) by those who do not look into details like cost per attack, loiter time, airframe operational tempo/costs, etc . . . all those AccountanTech details.

But that tank on the . . . barge? is interesting.  Is that a French WWII era tank?  I mean it LOOKs like a popgun on their . . . lol, give a 'broadside' with a modern tank on that size boat with that little freeboard and I could see it capsizing.

We went to a science museum last weekend, one of the founders of the museum was a WWII naval officer so they have a Mk XV? torpedo, some main gun shells- 16in I think- from the USS North Carolina where he was . . . gunnery officer?  And they had large models of the USS Oklahoma, USS North Carolina, and the USS Alaska.  If I can figure out how to get photos off the new phone I can share.  Oh, they also had the ship's bell from the USS Oklahoma City CLG-5.
Colt Ward
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Cannonshop

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1247 on: 25 July 2023, 11:10:59 »
My point was really that they do not want to build a ship with NGS as the primary mission, with the perception that the job can be done by missiles or aircraft (or no longer needed) by those who do not look into details like cost per attack, loiter time, airframe operational tempo/costs, etc . . . all those AccountanTech details.

But that tank on the . . . barge? is interesting.  Is that a French WWII era tank?  I mean it LOOKs like a popgun on their . . . lol, give a 'broadside' with a modern tank on that size boat with that little freeboard and I could see it capsizing.

We went to a science museum last weekend, one of the founders of the museum was a WWII naval officer so they have a Mk XV? torpedo, some main gun shells- 16in I think- from the USS North Carolina where he was . . . gunnery officer?  And they had large models of the USS Oklahoma, USS North Carolina, and the USS Alaska.  If I can figure out how to get photos off the new phone I can share.  Oh, they also had the ship's bell from the USS Oklahoma City CLG-5.

Look closer-that's a Sherman.  You can tell by the shape of the hull, and how much is sitting ABOVE the tracks (also the bow slope, the taper toward the rear, and teh rounded turret).  The Sherman has a VERY distinctive turret and hull shape, and that 'popgun' is proportionally the short 75 used on MOST early to mid war shermans.  the long barreled gun (76) didn't see wider use until late in the war, well after Normandy.
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chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1248 on: 25 July 2023, 12:27:12 »
You'd want the short 75mm for gunfire support anyway. The 75mm HE shells had about a 50% larger bursting charge (1.5 lb) compared to the 76mm or 17-pounder (~1 lb).

One thing that had never quite clicked was that the 3-inch gun on the M10 was not only a different weapon from the 76mm M1 used on Shermans, but also a different cartridge (76.2 x 585R vs 76.2 x 539R).

Looks like it was similar to the relation between .30-06 and 7.62mm x 51 where improvements in chemistry and material science allowed a smaller/lighter gun and cartridge to provide the same performance.
« Last Edit: 25 July 2023, 16:02:42 by chanman »

kato

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1249 on: 25 July 2023, 14:14:59 »
This is what seems to be the purpose-built successor model back then, photo supposedly taken in 1961:





If you look closely i think that's rather clearly a variant of an AMX-13 turret on the superstructure, thus switching to the in-service gun in the French Army at the time. One quad .50cal for air defence at the back and another two at the front. The mount in the middle of the back deck is probably an 81mm mortar.

Apparently the Forces Maritimes du Rhin never had all that many of these heavily-armed vessels though. Possibly only two or three at a time, of different variants.

P.S. There are one or two other pictures where parts of the "Sherman boat" are somewhat visible, so it seems to actually have been in service to some extent in the 50s, and not just a one-off trials prototype.

-

It should be noted that the Forces Maritimes du Rhin existed for almost 100 years. They were originally fielded for the river-side defense of the fortress of Strasbourg in 1870, and having - in principle - similar barges with field guns mounted on them was introduced back then already (150mm field artillery guns back then). The squadron varied in size over time, typically between 300 and 800 men with around 30-40 boats of various sizes for various purposes, and mostly swelled during occupation times post-WW1 and post-WW2.

About half of the force was transferred to the nascent German Bundeswehr in 1957, much like its US and British counterparts at the time. What remained were the patrol forces along the stretch where the Rhine forms the border between Germany and France. In 1966 the Navy Squadron was dissolved for budgetary reasons and its tasks - mostly riverine patrol - and the boats for it transferred to the 32nd Engineer Regiment of the Army.
« Last Edit: 25 July 2023, 14:19:08 by kato »

Failure16

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1250 on: 25 July 2023, 17:22:05 »
The Russians have been putting tank turrets on river boats for years:



More information here.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

Euphonium

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1251 on: 25 July 2023, 17:30:35 »
The wreck of a WWI U-Boat has been found off Shetland:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-66302352
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chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1252 on: 29 July 2023, 00:05:00 »
I've got a soft spot for post-WW2 gun-heavy ships even when it was obvious already that missiles were the order of the day.

Take Italian cruiser Vittorio Veneto. Laid down: June 1965, Launched: February 1967, Commissioned: July 1969. 7500t standard, 8850t full load
Armed with a hilarious 8 × Oto Melara 76 mm (3 in)/62 MMI or Compact gun and an extra 3 × Oto Melara Twin 40 mm (1.6 in)/L70 DARDO after refit. With the kicker that she was a helo carrier with 9 Huey/Twin Hueys or 6 Sea Kings




China's pre-refit Type 052 destroyers commissioned in 1994 and 1996 and originally carrying a twin 100mm and 4 × Type H/PJ76A dual 37 mm AA guns




South Korean Pohang-class corvettes bring the dakka


The now retired Type 053H3 frigates had a similar gun armament, although commissioned in the late 60s/early 70s


Hamburg-class destroyer. 3x 100mm guns and some 40mm Bofors. Designed for Baltic operations hence the freeboard...


kato

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1253 on: 29 July 2023, 02:41:02 »
Hamburg-class destroyer. 3x 100mm guns and some 40mm Bofors. Designed for Baltic operations hence the freeboard...
They originally had 4x100mm + 4x twin 40mm (plus extensive ASW armament). One of the 100mm turrets was replaced by two twin Exocet launchers in the mid 70s, as visible in the pictures.


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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1254 on: 29 July 2023, 15:05:08 »


The badly damaged Gneisenau after being damaged, she didn't quite get out dock again.  She was to have been modified, but Hitler was upset with how surface fleet had performed and did nothing with her until she was scuttled in Poland harbor in 1945.



She was raised in 1951 and essentially fulled scrapped.  Funny thing, her turret is still around that they removed as part the improvement they were to do.  Its still Norway, the Caesar turret.
« Last Edit: 29 July 2023, 15:13:43 by Wrangler »
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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1255 on: 30 July 2023, 09:59:06 »
The turret survives, as they were planning to regun her with twin 15" mounts instead of the 11", similar to Bismarck and Tirpitz.

The surplus guns of both calibers were turned in to coast artillery along the Atlantic Wall. Also, some of the 15 cm secondary battery were used in a reserve coast defense role by the Danes until 2000.
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chanman

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1256 on: 01 August 2023, 02:29:15 »
HMAS Adelaide (Canberra-class LHD), USS America (America-class LHA), JS Izumo (Izumo-class uh... DDH), ROKS Marado (Dokdo-class LPH). The Adelaide and Marado have well decks, the America and Izumo do not.



Daryk

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  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1257 on: 01 August 2023, 03:23:42 »
That's a well-executed PHOTOEX!

Fat Guy

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1258 on: 01 August 2023, 07:42:07 »
A whole bunch of flattops at Norfolk.

I have spoken.


I am Belch II

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Re: Naval Pictures IX - General Quarters, Battlestations!
« Reply #1259 on: 01 August 2023, 08:18:53 »
Great seeing all the big ships from other countries together.
Even more amazing that 3 of those nations didnt have anything like those ships 10-15 years ago.
Walking the fine line between sarcasm and being a smart-ass

 

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