Mech of the Week - Flea

[Starfury]

Lots of options across the years for high speed infantry transports.  For the Taurians, the Maultier and Maxim Hover APC comes to mind,  or Marten/DI/Karnov helicopters. Marik has the R10, the Pandion, and a lot more options.  The Capellans JI2A1 is an interesting idea, especially in an augmented unit with a Flea, Gun, Stinger and Wasp lance combined with two JI2A1 standard infantry transports with Jump SRMs or Man Portable Plasma Rifles. Or two Talons.

[BrianDavion]

The Capellans JI2A1 is an interesting idea

the JI2A1 is actually a Davion design.... the capellans just borrowed it, (along with New Sytris) for a bit

[Starfury]

Well to be fair, the Davions borrowed a lot of the Capellan Confederation for a while, so it's only fair.

[JadeHellbringer]

Well to be fair, the Davions borrowed a lot of the Capellan Confederation for a while, so it's only fair.

The difference is that Liao seems to have set up a 'rent to own' situation.  ;D

OK, ok. So per the earlier discussion of whether the Flea stacks up against other 20-tonners... I mean, it varies from version to version. Some, like the 19, are so hyper-focused on anti-infantry weapons that they'll struggle against other Mechs, even bugs, simply due to lack of range. Take that little monster- once that RL-10 is empty, it can't reach out past six hexes, period. Which is fine, except it's also not fast enough to press the issue against most other small Mechs- a bog-standard LCT-1V will run rings around that Flea and chew it to pieces with its medium laser, always able to either hold the range advantage or duck away to safety if it's getting cornered. So against that Locust, the Flea is garbage- but for its assigned role of telling the striking workers to get back to the factory, there's probably not a better Mech in production anywhere.

The other side of it is the FLE-4, which... I mean, its armor sucks on toast, and it's not very fast for its size, but how many bugs can claim to take a large laser hit and be in fighting condition the following turn? That's a serious punch against small machines, and respectable even for larger Mechs to deal with. From that standpoint, if I want rid of Wasps and Locusts, that's an excellent option for the job.

But, as with anything that size, if you're looking at using it more than once, you're in the wrong business. 20-ton Mechs just don't really have the staying power to reliably be around for a full campaign in-general, even in 3025. By 3050, with the return of pulse lasers to the battlefield, double-heat sinks to allow for larger salvos per-turn, XL engines allowing for fast mediums, etc., it's even worse on small Mechs. Is the Flea worse off than most? No, it's just as bad off as any- without high speed or jump jets, it's easier to hunt one down, but it's got the same thin armor problem all small machines have, and it at least tends to have greater firepower than its competitors, so it can at least make the enemy sweat a little on its way to hell.

Speed, armor, firepower, pick two. No 20-tonner picks armor really, so it's a matter of whether you need more mobility or weaponry. Fleas almost exclusively lean on the latter, and if that's what you need from your bug, it's a great option. If not, it's probably worth reconsidering your available options in favor of Stingers or something like that.

(Backing interest in a Hornet article, because as homely as it looks, it's a pretty sobering Mech to deal with if you're using similarly-sized opposition!)

[Weirdo]

I really need to get off my butt and run a bunch of automated Flea vs Other Bug and Hornet vs Other Bug fights, if only to see how they actually fare between two equal players(even if the operative them here is equally dumb). I really think the results would be educational, either for the general public, or for myself.

[Bedwyr]

I haven't done much with such scenarios before, but what would a good recon/probing/sensor scenario look like? Where maybe a fast 20t Mech mostly avoids contact if possible? Especially in a linked set of scenarios.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

I haven't done much with such scenarios before, but what would a good recon/probing/sensor scenario look like? Where maybe a fast 20t Mech mostly avoids contact if possible? Especially in a linked set of scenarios.

I don’t think princess does very well in those Scan the enemy mechs style Recon scenarios. Mostly because unless you have some sort of active probe you aren’t supposed to shoot.

But I would go with a Scan the enemy type of mission, scan and destroy the building (kind of like the Luk scenario in the new BoT), and then a pursuit as the fleas try to get away. The other two scenarios are in Total Chaos, although I think Campaign Ops has enough info to get you to figure them out (I’m running off an old pdf)

[Bedwyr]

I'm thinking potentially of a linked, dependent scenario couplet where the level of success in mission 1 affects the disposition of mission 2. Doesn't have to be MM, I'm just thinking of the game, campaigns, and verisimilitude generally.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

I'm thinking potentially of a linked, dependent scenario couplet where the level of success in mission 1 affects the disposition of mission 2. Doesn't have to be MM, I'm just thinking of the game, campaigns, and verisimilitude generally.

I didn’t look at the name, I saw the avatar and figured Weirdo double posted.  :))

Failure to recon bumps up enemy BV? But that’s rather generic

[Weirdo]

How about this:

Scouting force:
Gain as VP half the BV of each enemy unit crippled.
Gain as VP the BV of each enemy unit destroyed.
Gain as VP the BV of each enemy unit scanned. Keep track of who scanned what, because you only gain this BV if the unit that did the scanning survives to retreat off your home edge.
(No enemy unit can give you more than 100% of its BV as VP.)
Gain as VP the BV of each friendly unit that retreats off your home edge.

(The first two aren't as likely to come into play, but aggressive players can remember that telling your commander that the other side used to have a Centurion is just as useful as telling them the other side still has one.)

Scouted force:
Gain as VP half the BV of each enemy unit crippled.
Gain as VP the BV of each enemy unit destroyed.
(It may look like the defender isn't going to score near as many victory points, but remember that if you kill/cripple things before they can scan you or kill them before they can get away with the data, that's a LOT of VP the other side is being denied.)

To scan a unit, you must end your movement within 2 hexes of the target, and forego weapon attacks that turn. Units with no sensors remaining cannot scan.

[Bedwyr]

Not bad not bad. Good grist for the mill here.

I'm just trying to brainstorm non-anti-infantry uses that a, well a scout, would have. Just like the OH-58 Kiowa.

[Bedwyr]

I didn’t look at the name, I saw the avatar and figured Weirdo double posted.  :))

Yeah I forget who did them originally, but we all had Marauders around when the classics started getting introduced. I'm a Feddie with an affection for the 7th CL which, for awhile, kept winking in and out of existence.

[Wrangler]

Awesome article, Weirdo.  I love how you wrote it!

[mbear]

Shouldn't be impossible to get 8.5 tons of hardened armor on it... ^-^

Flea MOTW design thread, where I created a Flea with 8.5 tons hardened armor. I don't think Scotty will like it because I had to use XL everything to free enough weight, but what the heck. It's only a game. ;)

[JadeHellbringer]

Yeah I forget who did them originally, but we all had Marauders around when the classics started getting introduced. I'm a Feddie with an affection for the 7th CL which, for awhile, kept winking in and out of existence.

It was G&D actually, and yeah, he did them for most of the forum staff. Occasionally I still break out my Jade Falcon Iota one with the snake-eyes dice behind it. (But for now, Red Death will suffice)

[XenopusTex]

Counterscouts. My headcanon is that this is part of the reason for Wolf's Dragoons' success. When most enemies are sending out Stingers, Locusts, and the odd Firestarter or Jenner but they're running into Fleas, Hornets, and Fireflies, odds are that more often than not the other guy's scouts aren't going home.

Looking at the Flea, I'm wondering if the not coming home has more to do with the quality of Wolf's Dragoon warriors and less with the 'mech :)  While the Firestarter is definitely a niche design, I'd probably take a Jenner up against just about any of the Flea variants.  Depending on which Locust, that might also be something I'd be willing to try. 

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Looking at the Flea, I'm wondering if the not coming home has more to do with the quality of Wolf's Dragoon warriors and less with the 'mech :)  While the Firestarter is definitely a niche design, I'd probably take a Jenner up against just about any of the Flea variants.

Jenner's a scout-hunter.  There aren't many light mechs in the Inner Sphere it won't do well against.  The fact that it can take a Flea isn't exactly impressive.

[XenopusTex]

Jenner's a scout-hunter.  There aren't many light mechs in the Inner Sphere it won't do well against.  The fact that it can take a Flea isn't exactly impressive.

My comment was in regard to the statement about things like the Jenner being defeated by Fleas, etc. 

"When most enemies are sending out Stingers, Locusts, and the odd Firestarter or Jenner but they're running into Fleas, Hornets, and Fireflies, odds are that more often than not the other guy's scouts aren't going home."

Unless I'm reading that wrong, Fleas, Hornets, and Fireflies are indicated to be the reason why the Firestarters and Jenners aren't going home. 

[JadeHellbringer]

Jenner's a scout-hunter.  There aren't many light mechs in the Inner Sphere it won't do well against.  The fact that it can take a Flea isn't exactly impressive.

It turns out that tacking an extra 15 tons on does make it a little bit more capable than a bug.  ;D

[Weirdo]

Note that I said Fleas, Hornets, AND Fireflies. I may be singing the praises of the Flea in this thread, but even I will not pretend that one can take down a Jenner solo without its own weight in plot armor. And even a brute like a Firefly is gonna have serious trouble with one, though I do think that fight would be a lot closer than most.

[Wrangler]

Its funny.  Flea is such light and lightly armored mech.  Yet we play computer games such as MechWarrior5 or MechWarrior Online, the thing is a beast of thing try take down as it's whirling around it's targets sides shooting at it and getting away without any fatal hits.

[Luciora]

More of a quirk of the gaming engine used to represent the mechs.  With players able to simulate mech warfare, imagine how fast such games would actually be if the head armor was only 9, especially with how much more accurate a player is in a mech sim versus a tactical sim where shot locations are randomized.

The lighter mechs have the actual speed and size benefit that the TMM modifiers are supposed to confer, but since the armor values have all been tweaked, they feel alot tougher than the text stats convey. 

I think the only Mechwarrior game to actually keep tabletop damage values was Mechwarrior 1, (don't remember much about the 2 series)  as I remember legging Warhammers with 3 PPC leg shots, and a Jenner could leg the Locust and another Jenner with the 4 laser alpha.  The heads were the only things buffed, as I recall it took 4 ppc hits to a Battlemaster's head to decapitate it.

Its funny.  Flea is such light and lightly armored mech.  Yet we play computer games such as MechWarrior5 or MechWarrior Online, the thing is a beast of thing try take down as it's whirling around it's targets sides shooting at it and getting away without any fatal hits.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Mechwarrior 2 tried to keep tabletop damage values but there were issues with hit detection on some weapons.

[BrianDavion]

Mechwarrior 2 tried to keep tabletop damage values but there were issues with hit detection on some weapons.

especally in multiplayer, in MW2: Mercs if you played online you often ran a pure SSRM 2 inferno and flamer build just because they where the only garenteed hits with lag

[Dapper Apples]

More of a quirk of the gaming engine used to represent the mechs.  With players able to simulate mech warfare, imagine how fast such games would actually be if the head armor was only 9, especially with how much more accurate a player is in a mech sim versus a tactical sim where shot locations are randomized.

Headshots are really rare in MWO, as the actual head hitbox is usually only the pane of glass the pilot looks out of, not the entire head "structure."  If anything people often shave some of the head armor for a spare half ton.  Fleas and most lights tend to die from leg loss.  With a lost leg most lights only move at 20 kph, and then the light gets taken out of its misery.  How good a light mech can be is often judged by how favorable its leg hitboxes can be.

Durability must be increased because, as you alluded players are more accurate, but also with mech customization people come up with optimized alpha builds that can core other mechs in only a few salvos.

[Pistol Pete]

Do I need to do a Hornet article? As far as introtech 20-tonners go, that thing's a brute!

Yes, Weirdo. Yes you do.

Jymset has a MOTW Hornet article from 2017 (which is good), but I'd like to see the Weirdo take on the cute little egg on legs.

[Balian d’Ibelin]

The Flea is generally an OK militia design with a few solid variants. I’ve fielded it only a handful of times over the decades. Even when the weaponry is OK s as me the armor is better than tinfoil there’s just very little excitement in using one and for the same tonnage there’s better specialists and better looking mechs.

[Hellraiser]

The new "backdated" Flea-16 for the Dragoons is a little monster.
It's what Locust-1Vs wish they were.
Compared to everything before it and frankly the 3050 variants it's King of the Fleas (Or Lord of the Flies) (Or Queen of the Bees)  You get it....

I have a hard time thinking of a 20 ton canon intro variant I'd prefer to use.
   (Maybe Stinger-3G if JJ are needed or Hornet-151 for LRMs)

[RifleMech]

I like using the Flea-4 as fire-support for other bug mechs. It just doesn't have the armor for anything else. The Hornet gets that role too because of it's LRMs, - I would think the LRM's minimum range would be a detriment for the Hornet's urban recon role though. - but the Flea-4's large laser has a more solid punch. It doesn't belong in close terrain though. Even with a rear mounted flamer it's rear armor is so thin even infantry can breach it.

The Flea-15 fulfills the same roles as other bug mechs but it trade maneuverability for weaponry, mostly light and anti-infantry. think it's better in a urban area or against infantry. Not having jump jets hurts it some but it does have more anti-infantry weaponry than other bug mechs and it can fire forwards and backwards making it more difficult for infantry to attack from the rear.

I'd really love to see Clan C variants of both.



I'm not sure which would win between a Firefly and a Jenner. The Jenner is faster (7/11 vs 5/8) but it has less armor. The Firefly has more armor (6.5 tons vs 4) and a longer reach with it's LRMs. At 4-9 hexes, especially at 4-6 hexes, the Jenner has the advantage in firepower with 4 M Lasers and a SRM-4 compared to a LRM-5 and 3 M Lasers. But the Jenner has to risk LRM hits to get that close though. At closer ranges (3 hexes and under) the advantage switches to the Firefly as it can add it's 4 small lasers to the fight. Both mechs can jump but the Jenner can jump 1 hex further. I think it'd come down to tactics. In a slugging match the odds are with the Firefly's greater armor. In a hit and run fight the odds are with the Jenner. If the Jenner has to slug it out, it needs to stay at the 4-6 hex range to eliminate a lot of the Firefly's LRM and S Lasers.

[Hellraiser]

I'm not sure which would win between a Firefly and a Jenner. The Jenner is faster (7/11 vs 5/8) but it has less armor. The Firefly has more armor (6.5 tons vs 4) and a longer reach with it's LRMs. At 4-9 hexes, especially at 4-6 hexes, the Jenner has the advantage in firepower with 4 M Lasers and a SRM-4 compared to a LRM-5 and 3 M Lasers. But the Jenner has to risk LRM hits to get that close though. At closer ranges (3 hexes and under) the advantage switches to the Firefly as it can add it's 4 small lasers to the fight. Both mechs can jump but the Jenner can jump 1 hex further. I think it'd come down to tactics. In a slugging match the odds are with the Firefly's greater armor. In a hit and run fight the odds are with the Jenner. If the Jenner has to slug it out, it needs to stay at the 4-6 hex range to eliminate a lot of the Firefly's LRM and S Lasers.

I wouldn't call 4-6 a big Jenner advantage.  It lacks the heatsinks to use the weapons.
The only advantage the Jenner really has is speed/JJ so it's going to be dependent on getting in close & then praying it wins initiative to get into the back armor of the Firefly.