Author Topic: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix  (Read 11691 times)

GreekFire

  • Aeternus Ignis
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3881
Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« on: 11 February 2022, 17:51:51 »
I'm just the middle-man today--posting this on behalf of Diplominator, Falcon aficionado extraordinaire

Jade Phoenix
85-ton Clan OmniMech
Source: ilClan Recognition Guide Vol. 22

"SCRAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW "

This is gonna be a weird one. Most MotW articles start with some variation on "hey we all know this thing sucks, but here's how to get the most out of it" or "this thing rocks, but have you considered the following weaknesses?" Something along those lines. How to salvage a flawed design, finding the flaws in the otherwise implacable.

But, yeah. No. Different thesis, this time.

The Jade Phoenix is perfect.

Um.

It's the best 'Mech that there is.

That's a bit of a stretch, right?

Is it? Something has to be the best, right? Why not the Jade Phoenix? I'm actually not joking; it really is the best.

Let's take a look at it. It's an 85-ton OmniMech, 37 of those tons pod space. A 340 XL engine gets it moving at a respectable 4/6. The only fixed equipment is a Partial Wing and the maximum three DHS you can fit in the engine. Armor is four points shy of maximum, and after the endo-composite structure and ferro-fibrous armor it's got 30 crits to spare.

In case it's not obvious, that means that at every turn, this chassis is making the most efficient choices possible. 85 tons is the best tonnage for 4/6 without going to another jump jet weight class. 4/6 is a great speed for a partial wing because the extra distance pushes you into a new movement modifier bracket for either standard or improved jump jets. 37 tons in 30 crits is a bit cramped, buuuut a lot of good Clan weapons are very crit-dense. For that matter, so are the jump jets that the partial wing encourages you to use. Additionally, the crit placement only prevents a few niche types of equipment, making it a very versatile platform and a very good use of OmniMech technology. It is capable of mounting Arrow IV, Talons, a HAG-40...really the only noteworthy things that are precluded are Heavy Gauss Rifles and Long Tom Cannons and...well, LTCs are good, but I think I can probably live.

Okay, but plenty of OmniMechs have a good chassis. It's all about the configurations.

That's true enough, but the Jade Phoenix doesn't slack off there. Broadly speaking, the chassis lends itself to being either 4/6/5 with normal jump jets or 4/6/7 with the heavier improved versions. The Jade Phoenix Prime goes with the former. For weapons, it includes twin Clan ER PPCs in one arm, a HAG-30 with three tons of ammo for the other, and five extra heat sinks to almost totally cover the heat generation. Once again, the Falcons made smart, efficient design choices, using the limited critical slots efficiently to give it mobility, range, decent firepower, and a certain amount of flexibility with the HAG's crit-seeking ability.

Isn't that a little undergunned for a Clan assault 'Mech? The Blood Asp is the same speed with way more pod space. Even the old Warhawk has more crits and more total tons of guns and heat sinks.

Right, but comparing the Jade Phoenix to assault 'Mechs is misleading. You need to be comparing it to 'Mechs its own speed.

I...was?

Sort of. That fifth jump MP matters a great deal. It gets it to a target movement modifier of +3, matching the +3 it takes from jumping in the first place. That's a very important breakpoint, as it minimizes damage taken while ensuring that the Jade Phoenix's guns have at least the same odds to hit as its opponent. Don't think of the Jade Phoenix as an Assault 'Mech; think of it as a very strange Heavy.

But it's an Assault 'Mech?

Just stay with me a second. Compare it to the Grand Summoner. That's a very good Heavy design, a sensible upgrade to a solid performer from the Invasion era. Compared to the Grand Summoner, the Jade Phoenix has only one disadvantage: if it doesn't jump, it's a couple MP slower than the Grand Summoner, at least on relatively clear terrain. In return for this limitation, however, the Jade Phoenix receives over 30% more armor, and over 20% more pod space. To me, that seems like an extremely easy choice, especially given that, if the Grand Summoner does exercise its ability to run faster on land, then a sizable percentage of its pod space is devoted to jump jets that are doing nothing for it. Meanwhile, as long as it jumps, every ton of the Jade Phoenix is relevant every turn.

Okay, I sorta see your point about efficiency. What about the rest of the variants?

Okay, so, if the Jade Phoenix Prime is an incredible Heavy 'Mech, the Jade Phoenix A is an incredible Medium.

It's 85 tons!

Yeah, but it jumps 7, and it carries a UAC-20 and one of each pulse laser. It's basically just a better version of the Flamberge 3, which has been a fantastic design for over six decades in-universe (and about a decade out of universe, if you didn't feel old yet today). Take the Flamberge 3, keep the UAC-20, adjust the secondary array a bit while keeping the focus on pulse lasers, and add almost 20% more armor. Oh, and make it an OmniMech, which the Jihad-era Falcons never managed.

Okay, but how is an Assault, that you say is an improved version of a Heavy, a Medium 'Mech?

It's not literally a Medium, but that's how it fights on the battlefield. If you could get a Hunchback moving like an Assassin, with about the armor of both combined, that would be the Jade Phoenix A. Once again, you lose out on raw ground speed, but it's still fast and armored enough that it can expect to survive to close to UAC-20 range, and to do some damage once it gets there.

Seriously, compare it to every 'Mech that can jump 7 or 8. It out-armors all of them, and it outguns...okay, it outguns most of them. The Gargoyle J is kind of diluting my point here, but even then the Jade Phoenix can outrange it. As for the rest? The Jade Phoenix A shames them. It's a weirdly impervious Stormcrow that doesn't have to care about terrain. The Stormcrow was an incredible design in any era, and the Jade Phoenix is better than that.

So, that's what you mean by "best 'Mech?"

Basically, yes. It can combine maneuverability, firepower, and speed in ways that outdo even fairly dominant examples of Medium and Heavy 'Mechs.

Alright, that's pretty brutal. Next variant?

The B is pretty similar to the Prime, actually. Still 4/6/5, a gauss rifle in each arm mimic the performance from the PPCs, and a large and medium improved heavy laser round out the arsenal. It ends up with less total damage potential than the Prime, at shorter range, but in more concentrated chunks (including a third headcapper). Honestly, this one is the most lackluster. Too many explosive components, ammunition concerns for the main weapons, less range, and the torso-mounted lasers make carrying BA less attractive. Most of all, it just...barely offers any different performance from the Prime. I'd have liked to see a more radical departure; maybe something with talons.

Hmm. What's next?

 A more radical departure, with Talons. The Jade Phoenix C has paired ATM-12s, paired SRM-6s, and paired ERMLs. And talons, because I guess if you can't fit an improved Heavy Gauss Rifle on your OmniMech, you can at least kick like one. It's also got four standard jump jets for that nice five hex jump range. The missiles are a bit of a departure from the other variants, but that many ATMs give it the ability to wither targets at range while still being able to crush them up close. The talons will just flat out remove legs from many medium and most light 'Mechs, and badly hurt anything else. That combination of mobility and close-range lethality is nearly unprecedented, and it ends up functioning a bit like a bigger Flamberge, or like a much bigger Eyrie. Allegedly the Jade Phoenix is mainly in use by more traditional Falcons, but I suspect the Mongols would be right at home in the Jade Phoenix C.
 
Do all these variants have Jump Jets?

Not all of them. The Jade Phoenix D is the lone non-jumping variant, mounting a pair of ER PPCs in one arm, a gauss rifle in the other, and a spare ERML in the center torso. It supports that fairly wicked arsenal with plenty of ammo and heat sinks, along with a targeting computer. Three headcappers with a TC are hard to argue against too strenuously, and I'll even forgive the lack of jump jets. Obviously, the D wastes some of the potential of the partial wing, and thereby misses the some of the other variants' ideal of every ton being relevant all the time, but at the same time, it's a variant worth having. Not every battle will be on terrain where jump jets make sense to bring, and it's hard to say the Jade Phoenix D doesn't make the most of its pod space.

Still, sounds like a worse Hellstar.

Basically everything that moves 4/6 wishes it was a Hellstar.

Okay, but you said this was the best 'Mech. Right here!

Okay, yes, fair. And I stand by that! But, to be clear, that doesn't necessarily mean it can beat everything. More that I think if you didn't know what you'd be fighting, you'd want a Jade Phoenix over anything else. It's hideously tough, maneuverable, dangerous, and above all, efficient.

That it for variants?

Nope, one last one. Very similar to the Prime, but with Plasma Rifles in place of the PPCs and an LB-20x instead of the HAG. It loses a lot of range and absolute damage potential, but it gains some ability to butcher conventional units like tanks, aircraft, and infantry. The complete dependence on ammunition is a little concerning, but it still scares me quite a lot.  Oh, and it also has a supercharger, which...I don't want to like, but I kind of do anyway. Yes, using the supercharger means that the jets and the partial wing aren't doing anything, but it's nice to be able to put on a burst of speed when you have an AC-20 like that, and you can still jump every other turn to keep the supercharger rolls less scary.

Plus it keeps the two-energy-one-ballistic aesthetic.

Well, yeah, that's the most important thing. I will say that while it's nice to have a specialized anti-conventional variant, I do wish we'd have gotten a second 4/6/7 design. It fits on the chassis so well, but the A is a little close-ranged to be truly general-purpose.

I also don't want it to pass without mention that this is a design that the Jade Falcons have been making for close to a century. They got ever so close with the Night Gyr but they fixed the jump jets. They got closer with the Flamberge but they only got the OmniMech tech or the partial wing, not both. They got the size closer with the Onager, but didn't have enough firepower. They got closer with the Shrike, to the point where it became a totem design, but it still had kind of anemic firepower. The Jade Phoenix is the endpoint of that whole legacy and it will rip your entire face off if you let it. There's very little else out there with that sort of lineage of experimentation and improvement.

Because it's the best 'Mech?

Because it's the best 'Mech. Be interesting to see who actually gets to use them moving forward, given Alyina's somewhat tumultuous status.

Let's say I want to add some tumult to Alyina. How do I kill it?

Part of why I've been saying that you should treat the Jade Phoenix as a Heavy or medium is that it doesn't quite hold up as an Assault. Getting it in a scenario where it has to act like an Assault 'Mech is going to put it at a disadvantage. That means forcing it out of cover, denying it good targets without exposing itself to return fire, and the like. It tends to have the most trouble with really heavily armed and armored units that it can't swoop in, degrade, and then move onto the next target. Pulse lasers can also mess it up pretty good since its more reliant on mobility than most Assault designs. Just anything you can do to change it from an overarmored Heavy to an undergunned Assault.

I want one.

Me too, bold text voice. Me too.
« Last Edit: 11 February 2022, 19:04:00 by GreekFire »
Tu habites au Québec? Tu veux jouer au BattleTech? Envoie-moi un message!

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 27382
  • Need a hand?
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #1 on: 11 February 2022, 18:01:42 »
It's a big scary mech in the Falcon arsenal.  A really nice flagship assault mech for them.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

rebs

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16248
  • Et tu, Brute?
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #2 on: 11 February 2022, 19:40:04 »
Really liking the A configuration. 

Also, unlike the 'berge 3, it can carry a point of BA.

Give this to a Star Captain leading a trinary that features a Nova (as we all know the Falcons are want to do) and I get very happy. 

All the configurations are great, but the A captures my imagination.
Playing Guitar On My YouTube Channel:
Current cover tune: "The Wind Cries Mary" (by Jimi Hendrix)
https://youtu.be/m6a8wZiCsjM?si=0w7tVOgk7yylNv6a

"Thou shalt not create a machine in the image of the human mind." ~ The Orange Catholic Bible, Dune, Frank Herbert

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13924
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #3 on: 11 February 2022, 19:51:22 »
The Jade Phoenix is one of the two or three best optimized Omni chassis in the entire game, a group that notably excludes both the Timber Wolf and the Stormcrow because they're not good enough.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 27382
  • Need a hand?
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #4 on: 11 February 2022, 20:12:52 »
Then what are the others?
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13924
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #5 on: 11 February 2022, 20:27:47 »
Mastodon, Carrion Crow, War Crow, and Jade Phoenix are all battling for top billing.  Iron Cheetah and Hierofalcon are close behind, and the Skinwalker we got in the RecGuides is extremely well optimized I just think it's too expensive.

So really the Stormcrow and the Timber Wolf are battling it out to see who's the bottom of the top 10.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 27382
  • Need a hand?
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #6 on: 11 February 2022, 20:34:13 »
Oh how the mighty have fallen.

But then, I suppose it's only to be expected that given how tech in the game has advanced.  It would be kind of terrible if two mechs that were 30 years old were still the best two.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Natasha Kerensky

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3563
  • Queen of Spades, First Lady of Death, Black Widow
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #7 on: 11 February 2022, 20:53:09 »
The Jade Phoenix pushes the boundaries of mech design in good directions, resulting in a great omnimech.  More like this.

I think GreekFire Diplominator is right about handling the Jade Phoenix like a heavy or medium with superpowers, rather than as a traditional assault.  Against something like the Mastodon, it can fall short.  Bear players used to running Executioners should feel right at home in a Jade Phoenix.

My main complaint about the Jade Phoenix is the same as the Heirofalcon — I wish the configurations made greater use of weapons and equipment with negative targeting modifiers, like pulse, ER pulse, LB-X cluster, Artemis V, Targ Comp, SB Gauss, and the like.  Without these kinds of weapons to offset the jumping movement modifier, the utility of the heavy investment these designs make in partial wings, jump jets, and improved jump jets is somewhat limited.  It’s not terrible, but I’d like to be able to hit more often while jumping with these designs without having to upgrade gunnery skills.

That said, the configurations do have some variety, with a close-range bully in the A, fire support in the C, and anti-conventional war crimes in the E.  This is a good thing.

It’s a shame the Falcons may not be able to make much use of this design, but when the Commonwealth takes back Alyina at the end of ilClan Era, the Jade Phoenix will make a great Lyran scout.
« Last Edit: 12 February 2022, 00:57:28 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

BrianDavion

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2265
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #8 on: 11 February 2022, 21:39:22 »
The Jade Pheonix is, in many ways, the ultimate evolution of Jade Falcon design Phgilophesy, a tough hard hitting mech with impressive mobility
The Suns will shine again

DragonKhan55

  • Master Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 331
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #9 on: 11 February 2022, 21:55:49 »
Great write up, and can't wait to play against this as an OpFor mech, but the greatest Clan Assault Omni to me will always be the *Dire Wolf A.* My first Omni ever played and still my go-to whenever I feel like munchkin time with a canon mech.

GreekFire

  • Aeternus Ignis
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3881
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #10 on: 11 February 2022, 21:58:27 »
I think GreekFire is right about handling the Jade Phoenix like a heavy or medium with superpowers, rather than as a traditional assault.  Against something like the Mastodon, it can fall short.  Bear players used to running Executioners should feel right at home in a Jade Phoenix.

Full disclosure: my opinions are not those expressed in the write-up---those are solely Diplo's insane ramblings.
I personally disagree that the Jade Phoenix is the best omni ever.
Tu habites au Québec? Tu veux jouer au BattleTech? Envoie-moi un message!

Starfury

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 946
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #11 on: 11 February 2022, 23:14:12 »
Of course not. We all know the best Omni of all time is the Hellbringer (Loki).

Kerfuffin(925)

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3763
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #12 on: 12 February 2022, 03:27:00 »
This mech is exciting looking, both in classic and AS. Once a mini comes out I have two scheduled for my Falcons.

That being said looking at all the variants and comparing them to any of the Executioners makes me sad. A couple hundred less BV for a more maneuverable mech, with more pod space. It’s slightly more constrained crit slots and emphasis on jumping versus a balanced land and air movement is totally worth the trade of imo. Plus it’s got the armor where it’s needed.
NCKestrel’s new favorite.

BrianDavion

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2265
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #13 on: 12 February 2022, 15:06:52 »
Full disclosure: my opinions are not those expressed in the write-up---those are solely Diplo's insane ramblings.
I personally disagree that the Jade Phoenix is the best omni ever.

well Diplo is a jade falcon fan you said? So it stands to reason that as a Jade Falcon he's going to like it, it takes the tradtional CJF heavy design paradyme (the summoner, grand summoner timber wolf Pryde, Night Gyr, flambridge, Shrike etc) and dials it up to 11.
The Suns will shine again

jymset

  • Infinita Navitas & RecGuide Developer
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1556
  • the one and only
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #14 on: 12 February 2022, 19:04:31 »
Three points of Trivia!

  • the Jade Phoenix was the only 'Mech I 'brought with me' when I started out developing the Recognition Guides. For all the praise of the chassis, its design wasn't exactly rocket science, taking the easy route to optimization
  • conversely, the configurations were a deliberate exercise in restraint, serving various aesthetics
  • I was lucky in working with the artist (Dale Eadeh) directly for the BirdMechs. For the Jade Phoenix, the item we discussed longest was the HAG. The JP (and the Ion Sparrow) were also posed in deliberate hommages to prior TRO illustrations--can you see which ones?
« Last Edit: 12 February 2022, 19:08:03 by jymset »
On CGL writing: Caught between a writer's block and a Herb place. (cray)

Nicest writing compliment ever: I know [redacted] doesn't like continuity porn, but I do, and you sir, write some great continuity porn! (MadCapellan)

3055 rocks! Did so when I was a n00b, does so now.

BrianDavion

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2265
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #15 on: 12 February 2022, 20:27:22 »
Three points of Trivia!

  • the Jade Phoenix was the only 'Mech I 'brought with me' when I started out developing the Recognition Guides. For all the praise of the chassis, its design wasn't exactly rocket science, taking the easy route to optimization
  • conversely, the configurations were a deliberate exercise in restraint, serving various aesthetics
  • I was lucky in working with the artist (Dale Eadeh) directly for the BirdMechs. For the Jade Phoenix, the item we discussed longest was the HAG. The JP (and the Ion Sparrow) were also posed in deliberate hommages to prior TRO illustrations--can you see which ones?

Did you design the Ion Sparrow as well Jym?
The Suns will shine again

JadeHellbringer

  • I just work here, man.
  • Administrator
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 22079
  • Third time this week!
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #16 on: 12 February 2022, 20:58:19 »
Of course not. We all know the best Omni of all time is the Hellbringer (Loki).

"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

XenopusTex

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 61
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #17 on: 12 February 2022, 23:49:40 »
Man, is that thing ugly.  Looks like a Stalker ran nose-first into a concrete wall, and then somebody stuck a cheesy after-market spoiler on the back.  It's almost like a bipedal cyclopean pug. 

Not too sold on the concept of a "bigger" version of a heavy/medium 'mech.  This almost feels like a bidding chip than an honest to goodness front-line clan omni.  Yes, it's armoured up.  Yes, it hops around.  But, when it comes time to kill things, it looks lacking. 

The Prime is 2xCERPPC and an LRM-30 "equivalent" with cluster roll penalties at long range.  That's 30 points and whatever change the HAG can toss at long range.  I could see it being annoying, but it just doesn't seem to have the take down power that I'd expect from a front-line Clan omni. 

The "A" really lacks the ability to capitalize on it's jumping.  Seems to be focused on the gimmick of a nearly Spider-like mobility on a UAC-20.  There's nothing about a UAC-20 that helps deal with the jumping to-hit penalty.  If this had been the assault 'mech version of the Black Python 1, that might have been interesting ... not high damage, but difficult to splat.  Big gun doesn't always equal good gun.  Lots of options that while don't have the "ow" factor of the unlikely double-tap 20 hit, certainly would ensure more hits. 

The "B" is stuck with all weapons that explode, and a close-range 3rd headchopper.  I guess it covers the minimum range of the gauss rifles.  A pox on all the HL and iHL toting 'mechs out there. 

The "C," well... only thing I could see doing with the SRM-6 packs is infernos, maybe TC if one can find 'em.  2x SRM-6's with infernos, if all hit = dead 4-man IS battle armour squad.  Or, buy some iATM's from Shark-Mart, Shop Smart... Shop S(hark)-Mart, ditch the SMR-6's and go with iInferno ammo for the iATM-12's. 

Now, the "D" looks interesting.  A lighter Thunderhawk of sorts.  Unless the terrain calls for jumping, I'd probably take this over the Prime or "B".  The best use of the "A" variant is to test whether or not you can fire your tech out of the large bore AC-20 for the audacity of trying to saddle you with the beast.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 27382
  • Need a hand?
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #18 on: 13 February 2022, 00:07:03 »
I'd wager that the pilot ability that negates the penalty for jumping movement on attack rolls is quite common among Falcon warriors.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

XenopusTex

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 61
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #19 on: 13 February 2022, 00:28:47 »
I'd wager that the pilot ability that negates the penalty for jumping movement on attack rolls is quite common among Falcon warriors.

Wouldn't say "negates" it, but compensates for it.  Without the jumping penalty, the warrior would still be better off than with the penalty just relying on his/her skill set.  Couple the jumping with the short range of the AC-20, and you're facing the "long range/medium range" penalties unless darned near hugging the target anyway.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 27382
  • Need a hand?
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #20 on: 13 February 2022, 00:56:35 »
Remember, this is a totem omnimech.  It's going to be assigned to prestigious ristars who've shown their skill, not fledglings fresh from the sibko.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Diplominator

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1194
  • Tactful Tactician
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #21 on: 13 February 2022, 11:07:16 »
First of all, a huge thank you to GreekFire for putting this up while I was AFK, and for being a solid sounding board for ideas.

Few other things to address:

I think GreekFire Diplominator is right about handling the Jade Phoenix like a heavy or medium with superpowers, rather than as a traditional assault.  Against something like the Mastodon, it can fall short.  Bear players used to running Executioners should feel right at home in a Jade Phoenix.

Yeah, the Mastodon really is the perfect counter for the Jade Phoenix, provided the Jade Phoenix is obliged to deal with it. Like, at its core, the Jade Phoenix's whole deal is creating a really lopsided differential in damage received. It sacrifices some outgoing firepower to achieve a much larger reduction in incoming damage due to how fast it is. That's often very effective, but it can be countered by designs that go the other way and just have a wholly unreasonable number of guns.

Full disclosure: my opinions are not those expressed in the write-up---those are solely Diplo's insane ramblings.
I personally disagree that the Jade Phoenix is the best omni ever.

Okay, but, like...name a better one.

Man, is that thing ugly.  Looks like a Stalker ran nose-first into a concrete wall, and then somebody stuck a cheesy after-market spoiler on the back.  It's almost like a bipedal cyclopean pug. 

Not too sold on the concept of a "bigger" version of a heavy/medium 'mech.  This almost feels like a bidding chip than an honest to goodness front-line clan omni.  Yes, it's armoured up.  Yes, it hops around.  But, when it comes time to kill things, it looks lacking. 

The Prime is 2xCERPPC and an LRM-30 "equivalent" with cluster roll penalties at long range.  That's 30 points and whatever change the HAG can toss at long range.  I could see it being annoying, but it just doesn't seem to have the take down power that I'd expect from a front-line Clan omni. 

The "A" really lacks the ability to capitalize on it's jumping.  Seems to be focused on the gimmick of a nearly Spider-like mobility on a UAC-20.  There's nothing about a UAC-20 that helps deal with the jumping to-hit penalty.  If this had been the assault 'mech version of the Black Python 1, that might have been interesting ... not high damage, but difficult to splat.  Big gun doesn't always equal good gun.  Lots of options that while don't have the "ow" factor of the unlikely double-tap 20 hit, certainly would ensure more hits. 

The "B" is stuck with all weapons that explode, and a close-range 3rd headchopper.  I guess it covers the minimum range of the gauss rifles.  A pox on all the HL and iHL toting 'mechs out there. 

The "C," well... only thing I could see doing with the SRM-6 packs is infernos, maybe TC if one can find 'em.  2x SRM-6's with infernos, if all hit = dead 4-man IS battle armour squad.  Or, buy some iATM's from Shark-Mart, Shop Smart... Shop S(hark)-Mart, ditch the SMR-6's and go with iInferno ammo for the iATM-12's. 

Now, the "D" looks interesting.  A lighter Thunderhawk of sorts.  Unless the terrain calls for jumping, I'd probably take this over the Prime or "B".  The best use of the "A" variant is to test whether or not you can fire your tech out of the large bore AC-20 for the audacity of trying to saddle you with the beast.

I think that you are badly underestimating how much damage the Jade Phoenix can do and how hard it is to get rid of. No one accuses the Night Gyr of being undergunned, and yet the Jade Phoenix has a very similar amount of pod space. No fixed jets, but better fixed heat dissipation, so it's almost a wash. And it winds up being faster and better armored than the Night Gyr.

I agree that a more general-purpose 4/6/7 design would be nice, but it's not hard to see why the Falcons started with the UAC-20 since they've been using the Flamberge 3 for so long. Minimal doctrine shifts, minimal retraining, and it's familiar for the warriors around it. I would expect to see more configurations eventually as the design matures and its users push the envelope a bit more. The fluff says that it was designed to be a straight-up, no-nonsense design, but as desperation set in on Terra I wonder what they might have come up with out of necessity. Or opportunity; they salvaged enough RISC tech.

Also, I don't think the Foxes have iATMs.

Remember, this is a totem omnimech.  It's going to be assigned to prestigious ristars who've shown their skill, not fledglings fresh from the sibko.

That certainly was the case, at least. It'll be interesting to see how the AML deploys its Jade Phoenixes, if they keep supplying them to Jiyi Chistu and/or the Falcons who went to Terra, etc etc. I could certainly see the case for trading with Sudeten for Turkinas so that they do have something to fill the actual Assault 'Mech role, but they probably don't have to.

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13924
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #22 on: 13 February 2022, 12:24:22 »
The Jade Phoenix is the apex entry in the competition of being able to outgun anything you can't outrun, by a significant margin.  Literally nothing faster than it has comparable firepower, literally nothing that has its firepower can catch it if it wants to disengage.

There are still improvements that can be made to specific configs in pursuit of specific goals, of course, but what we got is mostly efficient use of a very efficiently designed chassis.  I'm a particular fan of the A for cost, and the C because paired ATM-12s is damage out put that shames a not-insignitifcant chunk of the entire game by itself let alone the backup weapons and talons.  On average cluster table rolls a Jade Phoenix C at short range delivers ninty points of damage at a net +9 heat and functionally no reduction in maneuverability, and then follows up with a 26 point kick for a cumulatively likely minimum of three PSRs forced in a single engagement window.  You will not be able to prevent it from closing.  It's nasty.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

Greatclub

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3134
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #23 on: 13 February 2022, 12:49:33 »
We haven't seen iATM since the wars of reaving. The scorpions could've conceivably saved (& passed on) the specs, but...

Out of universe, the reason is probably just how complex iEMP warheads are, the battlemech taser tech-tree is quite bad enough.

I've megamek'd the JP a few times, it performs acceptably for the absurd BV.
« Last Edit: 13 February 2022, 16:22:06 by Greatclub »

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 29684
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #24 on: 13 February 2022, 23:09:19 »
Still think the Osteon will give it a run even limited to just the canon configs.  Did not see Scotty throw in the Savage Wolf either.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Greatclub

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3134
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #25 on: 13 February 2022, 23:28:14 »
The basic osteon frame is a tier below the JP (torso cockpits have issues,) but the society gave it configs with all the cheese the falcons missed.

yeah, that would be a fun matchup.
« Last Edit: 13 February 2022, 23:31:02 by Greatclub »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 27382
  • Need a hand?
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #26 on: 13 February 2022, 23:38:14 »
I suspect that the Mad Cat Mk IV didn't make the list because of the heat and durability problems caused by the XXL engine.  Also, the limitations imposed by its cramped interior.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13924
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #27 on: 13 February 2022, 23:43:09 »
Mostly the XXL.  I'm a big fan of armored components but I don't think the Mad Cat Mk IV successfully iterates on the Timber Wolf in terms of quality of performance, even with the inclusion of Ferro-Lamellor (which is a significant bump).  They are peers but there are significant shortcomings present on the Mk IV.

As is the War Crow does what I'd want out of that but better in every measurable way.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

GreekFire

  • Aeternus Ignis
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3881
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #28 on: 14 February 2022, 00:05:38 »
Yeah, the Savage Wolf, as a chassis, got completely outclassed by the War Crow.
It'd be possible to bring more out of the Savage Wolf by giving it a solid alpha-baby config, but that's something that's easier said than done and remains a small niche compared to all the other fields where the War Crow now seriously outperforms it.

The Prime is 2xCERPPC and an LRM-30 "equivalent" with cluster roll penalties at long range.  That's 30 points and whatever change the HAG can toss at long range.  I could see it being annoying, but it just doesn't seem to have the take down power that I'd expect from a front-line Clan omni. 

Strongly disagree. The Prime is very much a streamlined Turkina Prime, and I've never met anyone who thinks that 'Mech is undergunned. It delivers fewer clusters of damage, but has a smoother heat curve, deadlier flak attacks, and most importantly, has a 4/6/5 movement profile instead of a 3/5/3 one.
Tu habites au Québec? Tu veux jouer au BattleTech? Envoie-moi un message!

Scotty

  • Alpha Strike Guru by appointment to the FWLM
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13924
Re: Mech of the Week: Jade Phoenix
« Reply #29 on: 14 February 2022, 01:06:29 »
As soon as you're in medium range you're looking at ~50 damage, up close you're averaging over 55.  I am not entirely sure what else you want out of a 'Mech if 50 damage at basically any range is not good enough.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.

 

Register