Author Topic: AC 12 and 15  (Read 1731 times)

Col Toda

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AC 12 and 15
« on: 25 April 2022, 19:42:52 »
What would you stat out these weapons for tonnage, range brackets , and Crit spaces. As it seems to be just a question of charge and bore size any isolated periphery world may come up with them themselves.

Cannonshop

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #1 on: 25 April 2022, 20:05:23 »
What would you stat out these weapons for tonnage, range brackets , and Crit spaces. As it seems to be just a question of charge and bore size any isolated periphery world may come up with them themselves.

The Original autocannons *(2, 5, 10, 20) follow a doubling of damage, but index their ranges off 'short'. with the big skip being between 2 and 5 (because you can't do half a point of damage) and 10 and 20 (because the short range of a 10 is 5 and the short range for a 20 is 3.)

the autocannon 10 is 12 tons, the AC/20 is 14.

Breaking in the pattern with either a 12 or 15 would likely result in the following:

Tonnage: 13

Ranges: 4/8/12

Critical Slots: 8 (autocannnon 12)  or 9 (autocannon 15) (Sweet spot between 7 and 10 would be 8 or 9)

Your differences beyond that might be based on tech base/home nation of manufacture.

For example, The periphery version may be the AC/12, being slightly more compact than the 15 and an upgrade of the AC/10, while the Inner Sphere version may be the 15 being slightly bulkier.

The real issue ends up being ammunition quantity. 

An AC/10 uses 10 rounds per ton.

An AC/20 uses 5 rounds per ton.

This leaves quantities ranging from 6 to 9 in between the two.

On the average (with the exception of the AC/2) one ton of ammo is supposed to work out to around 100 points of damage if the ammo bin crits.  (the AC/2 only does 90 on a blown full ammo bin explosion).

alright, so...

12x9=108

15x6=90

We've got a little more room if we're willing to risk breaking the 100 point barrier on the AC/15, so Seven shots for 105 point ammo  explosion sound good?

alternately, we can reduce the potential damage on an AC/12 by setting the per ton at 8 shots, giving a resultant per ton potential damage of 96, which is still more than the potential for the AC/2 at 90.

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Cannonshop

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #2 on: 25 April 2022, 20:18:55 »
Okay, why do I have a range on the ammunition quantity, mass differences, but NOT on the range between 12 and 15?

Answer:

AC/20 short range is 3
AC/10 Short range is 5
AC/5 Short range is 6
AC/2 short range is 8

The only 'gaps' in ranges are between AC/20 and 10, and AC/2 and 5.

Each one follows a basic linear pattern in which medium range is twice short range, and long range is three times short range.

to be consistent, then, our 'gap cannons' will fall into the existing gaps.

this in turn means that the AC/12 (or 15) will fall into the 4/8/12. Your differentiation then ends up being in mass, critical spaces, ammunition quantity (since neither divides 100 evenly, either exceeding 100 or falling short, you end up getting to 'choose')

A similar issue to the range bracket happens with Tonnage. 

In-game this can be explained as either tech base (the 12 weighing the same as the 15 because it's made of heavier, less refined material) Though we COULD go with a loose half-ton (there's precedent) to create a defining mass divide (make the 12 weigh 12.5 and the 15 weigh 13.5)

There's no real reason to do so-your other defining traits (potential damage per ton of ammunition, and inflicted damage differences will cover that nicely).
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DevianID

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #3 on: 25 April 2022, 23:53:36 »
I have geeked out a modular AC system that lets you choose any damage with any range and get 3025 appropriate tonnage before.

The AC12 and AC/15 issue is that while you can make any specific combination work, I think what you are trying to do here is fill in the ac/10 to ac/20 gap.  The ac/10 has 150 damagexrange, while the ac20 has 180 damagexrange.  I would set the damagexrange at ac/10 levels, to keep the ac/20 more relevant.  The end result is an ac/15 with 10 hex range (the ultra20 range) and 6 shots/ton and an ac12 with a 12 hex range (the desired 4/8/12) and 8 shots/ton. 

Both ac/12 and 15 would weigh 13 tons as the midpoint tonnage, though the suggestion for 12.5 tons for the ac12 by cannonshop works too, and I can see that both guns would be unpopular lore wise as they wouldnt have a long enough range to qualify for a LOS range band, making them more like variants of the ac20--the ac/10 with its ability to shoot several kilometers would still set it apart from all the 'headcapper' cannons which are more like bazookas/recoilless rifles if we look at their game stats.

Cannonshop

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #4 on: 26 April 2022, 10:32:15 »
I have geeked out a modular AC system that lets you choose any damage with any range and get 3025 appropriate tonnage before.

The AC12 and AC/15 issue is that while you can make any specific combination work, I think what you are trying to do here is fill in the ac/10 to ac/20 gap.  The ac/10 has 150 damagexrange, while the ac20 has 180 damagexrange.  I would set the damagexrange at ac/10 levels, to keep the ac/20 more relevant.  The end result is an ac/15 with 10 hex range (the ultra20 range) and 6 shots/ton and an ac12 with a 12 hex range (the desired 4/8/12) and 8 shots/ton. 

Both ac/12 and 15 would weigh 13 tons as the midpoint tonnage, though the suggestion for 12.5 tons for the ac12 by cannonshop works too, and I can see that both guns would be unpopular lore wise as they wouldnt have a long enough range to qualify for a LOS range band, making them more like variants of the ac20--the ac/10 with its ability to shoot several kilometers would still set it apart from all the 'headcapper' cannons which are more like bazookas/recoilless rifles if we look at their game stats.

You're basing on average damages, right?

Here's what I got:

AC/10

!0 shots/ton (10x10=100)

100 potential damage.

AC/20

5 Shots/Ton (20x5=100)

100 potential damage/ton of ammunition.

AC/15

x shots/ton does not equal 100 damage, it either goes under, or over.  (6 shots/ton=90 potential damage, 7 shots/ton=105 potential damage)  There's no 'clean' way to divide 100 by 15.

AC/12

Same problem, you're either going under, or over, but no clean way to divide 100 by 12 and get a round figure.

which is probably why we don't have those in the books.  The only outlier among common 'baseline' autocannons is the AC/2, which COULD be 50 shots, but is 45 instead, for a total of 90 potential damage, which would be the same as an AC/15 with a six round/ton magazine.

The range bracketing is easier, because there's only one intermediate range bracket between an AC/10 and an AC/20, and it's a nice round figure at 4/8/12  (one hex longer range than an AC/20 and one hex shorter than an AC/10, which fits the pattern from the 5 to the 10, but not from the 2 to the 5.)

The most logically consistent one to enter into fitting the pattern, is the 15 with a six rounds/ton magazine, as it computes to nice round numbers that are easy to retain, BUT...

it bumps up against the Large Laser for ranges, while sharing the damage of the Gauss rifle. 

the 12 still gives a potential headcapper with more range than a 20 but lacks the knockdown.  at (12x8=96) it's got a non-divisible by ten and still below 100 damage potential per ton of ammunition (absolute maximum value per ton of ammo)

I didn't address heat in my entries, because I...didn't.  It would certainly have it, and produce it for installations on a 'mech, (these aren't gauss rifles after all).

but most of it slots, and is easy to track without complexities, which imho is a critical feature of any fan weapon added to the game, and they can scale with the tech pretty easily (the 15 more than the 12, I'm afraid), with LBX versions reaching the same base range as a baseline AC/10 while providing that headcapper experience (ditto for Ultra versions).

I'm not 100% on what their average potentials would calculate out to, only what their absolute static-target or internal ammo explosion damage potentials would be per ammunition ton.

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Daryk

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #5 on: 26 April 2022, 19:21:48 »
Keeping it to 3025 flavor, I would totally go with a 13-ton, 9-crit AC/12 with 4/8/12 range, 8 shots per ton, and 6 heat.  It's the perfect Blazer Cannon analog of Autocannons...  :D

I think an AC/15 would be out of place.  That much direct damage is (and should be) a quantum leap reserved for the next level of technology (i.e. Star League Gauss Rifles).

five_corparty

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #6 on: 26 April 2022, 21:18:53 »
Keeping it to 3025 flavor, I would totally go with a 13-ton, 9-crit AC/12 with 4/8/12 range, 8 shots per ton, and 6 heat.  It's the perfect Blazer Cannon analog of Autocannons...  :D


oooohhh, I LIKE it!

RifleMech

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #7 on: 27 April 2022, 01:19:38 »
I would go with the AC/15. AC damage goes up in 5 point increments so 12 points of damage is out of place. I could see a PAC/12 though. I could also see a series of lighter smaller Autocannons. I can also see people complaining about how they're better than standard AC, so I haven't bothered to work on them.

Daryk

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #8 on: 27 April 2022, 03:30:25 »
Sure, if you're the Star League...  ::)

I'm aiming for what the same geniuses that gave us the Blazer Cannon could produce...  8)

As for "Light" versions of the heavier A/Cs, how about:

LAC/10, 10 tons, 6 crits, 4/8/12 range, 3 heat
LAC/12, 12 tons, 8 crits. 3/6/9 range, 5 heat
LAC/20, 13 tons, 9 crits, 2/4/6 range, 6 heat

Cannonshop

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #9 on: 27 April 2022, 12:35:18 »
used to be there was a custom weapons editor on a software called "Heavy metal" and we could build up 'test' sheets.

Not sure if it's still there, I haven't had a copy of the program since forever.

However...

since the 12 is apparently the popular choice...

anyone want to take a stab at designing a unit or two to show off how it should be done?
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

RifleMech

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #10 on: 27 April 2022, 13:17:29 »
Sure, if you're the Star League...  ::)

I'm aiming for what the same geniuses that gave us the Blazer Cannon could produce...  8)

As for "Light" versions of the heavier A/Cs, how about:

LAC/10, 10 tons, 6 crits, 4/8/12 range, 3 heat
LAC/12, 12 tons, 8 crits. 3/6/9 range, 5 heat
LAC/20, 13 tons, 9 crits, 2/4/6 range, 6 heat


That's adding on to an existing series and uses Star League Tech to make it work. I was thinking smaller caliber lighter Autocannons built with standard IS tech. AC/1, AC/3, AC/6, AC/9, AC/12.
used to be there was a custom weapons editor on a software called "Heavy metal" and we could build up 'test' sheets.

Not sure if it's still there, I haven't had a copy of the program since forever.

However...

since the 12 is apparently the popular choice...

anyone want to take a stab at designing a unit or two to show off how it should be done?
I was also thinking of an Automatic Rifle Cannon, as a step on the way from Rifles to Autocannons but I can see the complaints "Then the AC/10 isn't good anymore" and so on so I didn't go too far with it.





used to be there was a custom weapons editor on a software called "Heavy metal" and we could build up 'test' sheets.

Not sure if it's still there, I haven't had a copy of the program since forever.

However...

since the 12 is apparently the popular choice...

anyone want to take a stab at designing a unit or two to show off how it should be done?

I remember that program. Wasn't able to get it though. :(

garhkal

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #11 on: 27 April 2022, 13:58:09 »
Split the difference, and make it an AC 13!
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namar13766

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #12 on: 27 April 2022, 14:31:27 »
Guess what I found!

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/User:LRichardson/Interpolated_Autocannons

And it's also got stats for the AC/8 and the AC/18 as well!

Daryk

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #13 on: 27 April 2022, 17:51:35 »
That's certainly one take...  8)

The obvious choice for an AC/12 is an Urbanmech, of course:

Code: [Select]
UM-12

Mass: 30 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/C-E-D-D
Production Year: 2850

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 60 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 21.6 km/h
Maximum Speed: 32.4 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
    Jump Capacity: 60 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  Autocannon/12
    1  Small Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
    Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      51 points                3.00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                 60                       1.50
    Walking MP: 2
    Running MP: 3
    Jumping MP: 2 Standard
    Jump Jet Locations: 2 CT                                               1.00
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0.00
    Heat Sink Locations: 4 LT, 4 RT
Gyro:               Standard                                               1.00
Cockpit:            Standard                                               3.00
    Actuators:      L: SH+UA+LA+H    R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV -  96                  6.00

                                                      Internal       Armor     
                                                      Structure      Factor     
                                                Head     3            9         
                                        Center Torso     10           11       
                                 Center Torso (rear)                  8         
                                           L/R Torso     7            8         
                                    L/R Torso (rear)                  4         
                                             L/R Arm     5            10       
                                             L/R Leg     7            12       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat    Critical    Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Autocannon/12                                RA        6         9        13.00
Small Laser                                  LA        1         1         0.50
@AC/12 (8)                                   RT        -         1         1.00
                                            Free Critical Slots: 27

DevianID

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #14 on: 27 April 2022, 23:14:07 »
I dislike the values the guy in the sarna article uses, as his intermediate ACs are simply too strong.  The AC/15 for example has the same battle value as an ac/20, but weighs 1 ton less, and has 105 damage per ton.  The ac18 he came up with has MORE battle value then an AC/20, and weighs less, and has 108 damage per ton of ammo.  Making a intermediate weapon, in my opinion, is all about balance--part of that is not obsoleting the original guns.

Daryk

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #15 on: 28 April 2022, 03:19:07 »
Agreed.

Sabelkatten

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #16 on: 28 April 2022, 04:57:10 »
AC/12 at 13 tons, 4/8/12 range, 6 rounds/tons seems to work out quite well at 5 heat. It's a little worse than the 10 or 20, just enough that - like the Blazer - it would only be useful in very specific cases.

Fear Factory

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #17 on: 28 April 2022, 14:56:35 »
Why make new weapons?

Autocannon House Rule (ALL)

Any autocannon that hits the target above the TN causes +2 damage. Example, an AC/2 needs a 7 to-hit and rolls a 7 will cause 2 damage. If the result was above 7 it would have caused 4 damage.

For ultra autocannons, or LB-X cluster rounds, or any ammunition or weapon that requires the cluster/missile chart, apply the bonus to that instead. So if an Ultra AC/2 fires normally it applies the bonus to its damage. If it double-taps the bonus is applied to the cluster/missile chart roll. LB-X cluster shots do the same, applying the bonus to the cluster/missile chart.

With this, no stats need to be updated, and they feel different than firing lasers.
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Daryk

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #18 on: 28 April 2022, 18:00:18 »
Turning a vanilla AC/10 into a head capper is a little much, I think.

Fear Factory

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #19 on: 28 April 2022, 19:10:34 »
Turning a vanilla AC/10 into a head capper is a little much, I think.

Not really. You pay enough with weight and ammo.
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Daryk

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #20 on: 28 April 2022, 19:13:59 »
My low bar for that is the Blazer Cannon...

five_corparty

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #21 on: 28 April 2022, 20:20:34 »
Why make new weapons?

Autocannon House Rule (ALL)

Any autocannon that hits the target above the TN causes +2 damage. Example, an AC/2 needs a 7 to-hit and rolls a 7 will cause 2 damage. If the result was above 7 it would have caused 4 damage.
I like it with the tweak of "hits by over 2 gets a +2." so, you'd need 3 higher, making only feasible for good numbers, elite pilots, or both.

kinda a fun idea, actually...

Fear Factory

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #22 on: 28 April 2022, 20:53:13 »
I like it with the tweak of "hits by over 2 gets a +2." so, you'd need 3 higher, making only feasible for good numbers, elite pilots, or both.

kinda a fun idea, actually...

No, it should be available to all types of pilots... it's more of a weapon quirk.
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Daemion

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #23 on: 29 April 2022, 09:38:03 »
Why make new weapons?

Autocannon House Rule (ALL)

Any autocannon that hits the target above the TN causes +2 damage. Example, an AC/2 needs a 7 to-hit and rolls a 7 will cause 2 damage. If the result was above 7 it would have caused 4 damage.

For ultra autocannons, or LB-X cluster rounds, or any ammunition or weapon that requires the cluster/missile chart, apply the bonus to that instead. So if an Ultra AC/2 fires normally it applies the bonus to its damage. If it double-taps the bonus is applied to the cluster/missile chart roll. LB-X cluster shots do the same, applying the bonus to the cluster/missile chart.

With this, no stats need to be updated, and they feel different than firing lasers.
So, an inverse application of the glancing hits rule?

Okay. But, if we do that, I feel there should be a drawback, as well.  I'm thinking exponential range brackets.  So, really short short-range bands, and really long long-range bands.  Something to do with rounds starting to tumble and spread out over distance. 

But, honestly, something like this feels like it should be an ammunition type.  After all, I actually feel that 'standard' autocannon ammo has minor homing properties to get the static damage values.


As for the 12 and 15, I like the idea of the 12.  One more head-capper without being too overpowered. Unless an AC/20 burst has to deal with Hardened Armor, that application to the head feels a little like overkill.  (I play mercs more often than not, so salvage is generally on my mind.   xp)

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Cannonshop

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #24 on: 29 April 2022, 10:05:19 »
So, an inverse application of the glancing hits rule?

Okay. But, if we do that, I feel there should be a drawback, as well.  I'm thinking exponential range brackets.  So, really short short-range bands, and really long long-range bands.  Something to do with rounds starting to tumble and spread out over distance. 

But, honestly, something like this feels like it should be an ammunition type.  After all, I actually feel that 'standard' autocannon ammo has minor homing properties to get the static damage values.


As for the 12 and 15, I like the idea of the 12.  One more head-capper without being too overpowered. Unless an AC/20 burst has to deal with Hardened Armor, that application to the head feels a little like overkill.  (I play mercs more often than not, so salvage is generally on my mind.   xp)

to be completely honest, the 12 makes me smile more than the idea of the 15 does, it feels more like something that would evolve in, say, Taurian space, or in the Chainelaines pre-Clan.
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Daemion

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #25 on: 29 April 2022, 11:00:08 »
In Taurian space.  Or maybe in the Davion outback.  Somewhere along that border.
It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

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Fear Factory

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Re: AC 12 and 15
« Reply #26 on: 29 April 2022, 13:12:48 »
Nah. It’s balanced enough. You pay so much for weight and carry risky ammo. If you use the house rule all of a sudden the PPC and Large Laser look less appealing.
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