Author Topic: Tactics for ground combat in vacuum  (Read 3585 times)

AlphaMirage

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Re: Tactics for ground combat in vacuum
« Reply #30 on: 16 May 2022, 13:20:56 »
I think the problem with any modifiers is that the bell curve is so sharp on 2d6 that any modifier is catastrophic to the balance of the game

Trailblazer

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Re: Tactics for ground combat in vacuum
« Reply #31 on: 16 May 2022, 16:47:30 »
"Unplayable" and "You don't like them" are two very different things. Please be accurate.

Fair enough, but this is a real howler in terms of capturing any sort of reality... it would be like if the rules said "infantry can only survive in vacuum and wheeled vehicles only function underwater."

Dayton3

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Re: Tactics for ground combat in vacuum
« Reply #32 on: 31 May 2022, 08:39:12 »
Wouldn't the tactics for combat in a vacuum be very similar to the tactics for combat under water?

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Re: Tactics for ground combat in vacuum
« Reply #33 on: 31 May 2022, 11:54:31 »
Pretty much. The main differences are that vacuum fighting moves much faster(especially if you're fighting in low grav), while underwater combat has the alpha predator known as the submarine, plus other "hovering" units and surface assets.
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Daryk

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Re: Tactics for ground combat in vacuum
« Reply #34 on: 31 May 2022, 20:36:39 »
Extra plusses for that submarine if it has LRTs...  ^-^

Mechman08

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Re: Tactics for ground combat in vacuum
« Reply #35 on: 31 May 2022, 22:17:22 »
Going back to the fluff aspect of these rules:

Quote
You'd have to be desperate AND suicidal to fight in those conditions. You're telling me that a battlemech, the premier engine of war and death for the last 500+ years, has a 1 in 6 chance of being destroyed from any CT damage whatsoever??? And internal components can't function without some kind of atmospheric pressure??? And nobody in half a millennium has thought that, just maybe, there's a design flaw that should be corrected in every mech going forward??

Because that's what the rules mean to the lore.

My initial reaction to the vacuum breaching rules was along the same lines.  It seemed like too much that a whole section would fail like with water flooding.  But I think I we aren’t really considering just how extreme of an environment vacuum really is.  For instance, liquid lubricants will boil off.  Seals that might work fine with a bit of atmospheric back pressure can start leaking, or just outright fail from the sudden change.  Systems for bleeding heat from electronics no longer have a medium to work with.  Stuff exists that can handle space (see NASA), but getting around the performance trade offs needed to get a Mech operating in as many environments as it does would be enough to give any engineer fits.

Granted, Battletech’s somewhat...tangential relationship with actual material science means any number of these issues can be hand-waved.  But my own head canon runs something like this:

SLDF Program Officer: “How’s progress on the project to improve the survivability of our Mechs in vacuum?”

Engineer:  “Excellent!  With an extensive refit of redundant seals, nano manufactured self lubricating composites, and entirely redesigned cooling systems, we have made the internal systems completely impervious to vacuum!”

SLDF PO: “Any drawbacks?”

Engineer: “Well...Mass has increased by half a ton per critical slot.”

SLDF PO: “... How’s performance in atmosphere?”

Engineer: (proudly) “Exactly the same!”

SLDF PO: “... And how much does each refit cost?”

Engineer: “Err...”

SLDF PO: “This is so very canceled.”


Conventional vehicles, which are there as a cheaper alternative to space-wizard tech would be right out.  Suits would keep the crew alive, but without purpose built modifications it’s going to grind to a halt fast.

That’s how I reconcile the rules in my head, anyway.  I think I like the fact that as written they radically change what makes for an effective unit.  One more layer of variety that can be taken or left as desired.

Caedis Animus

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Re: Tactics for ground combat in vacuum
« Reply #36 on: 02 June 2022, 06:10:38 »
That SLDF PO would be a fool. No tech starts out efficient, especially not in Battletech, and the fact it's an SLDF Officer getting mad about something being weight-inefficient is so tone-deaf it's charming.

Mechman08

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Re: Tactics for ground combat in vacuum
« Reply #37 on: 02 June 2022, 09:19:37 »
Good point on the SLDF officer, I should have thought that through a bit more.  They would have the funding to throw at that kind of project.  Hopefully that particular head canon plot hole doesn’t cause a hull breach in the rest of my argument, lol.   xp

All I was really trying to get across was, in my opinion:
There’re plenty of good reasons for Mech internals to react poorly to vacuum.  The tech for an optimum solution might not exist, and fixing this specific problem with another layer of sealing, armor, or redundancy could impact performance or maintainability in unacceptable ways.  The vacuum hull breach rules are harsh but don’t surprise my enough to break my suspension of disbelief.

Charistoph

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Re: Tactics for ground combat in vacuum
« Reply #38 on: 02 June 2022, 13:04:06 »
I still find it odd.  It's not like a vacuum is not an environment, but the lack of environment.  Unless the lack of pressure causes myomer to suddenly stop working, ala human muscle cells, for some reason.  It's not like water which would cause problems due to electrical conductivity.

Still, Clanners have access to Harjel for such purposes.
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pokefan548

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Re: Tactics for ground combat in vacuum
« Reply #39 on: 02 June 2022, 13:13:57 »
I still find it odd.  It's not like a vacuum is not an environment, but the lack of environment.  Unless the lack of pressure causes myomer to suddenly stop working, ala human muscle cells, for some reason.  It's not like water which would cause problems due to electrical conductivity.

Still, Clanners have access to Harjel for such purposes.
Presumably, unlike aerospace units, BattleMechs go into combat pressurized. Damage from explosive decompression could cause issues- if not outright destroy equipment then unseating mechanisms, ripping cables out of place, et cetera.
That hypothesis does end up with a few holes in it though when you ask "well why don't they just make a 'Mech that can use a sealed aerospace fighter neurohelmet + flightsuit and modify the life support systems a bit so they can go into battle unpressurized?"
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Charistoph

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Re: Tactics for ground combat in vacuum
« Reply #40 on: 02 June 2022, 14:29:00 »
Presumably, unlike aerospace units, BattleMechs go into combat pressurized. Damage from explosive decompression could cause issues- if not outright destroy equipment then unseating mechanisms, ripping cables out of place, et cetera.
That hypothesis does end up with a few holes in it though when you ask "well why don't they just make a 'Mech that can use a sealed aerospace fighter neurohelmet + flightsuit and modify the life support systems a bit so they can go into battle unpressurized?"

Or just have the Cockpit pressurized.  Why does there need to be pressure maintained before heading out?  A simple baffle system would allow one to pressurize or depressurize at need.  And wouldn't that apply to low pressure atmos as well?
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smdvogrin

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Re: Tactics for ground combat in vacuum
« Reply #41 on: 03 June 2022, 13:29:56 »
I still find it odd.  It's not like a vacuum is not an environment, but the lack of environment.  Unless the lack of pressure causes myomer to suddenly stop working, ala human muscle cells, for some reason.  It's not like water which would cause problems due to electrical conductivity.

Still, Clanners have access to Harjel for such purposes.

Are you familiar with the term "Vacuum Welding"?  Turns out that the lack of air does all sorts of things you don't expect to deal with when you're used to having an atmosphere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_cementing

glitterboy2098

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Re: Tactics for ground combat in vacuum
« Reply #42 on: 03 June 2022, 15:03:35 »
given that myomer is basically thin plastic (polyacetylene) tubes stuffed full with an organic material, i could see it rupturing when exposed to vacuum pressures and losing its effectiveness. presumably myomers for vacuum use exist (such as the stuff threaded through jump sail cables) but i'd imagine they're designed with bulkier and stronger vacuum proof housings.. features which probably make them useless for mech muscles due to power to weight ratios and bulk.

Iceweb

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Re: Tactics for ground combat in vacuum
« Reply #43 on: 07 June 2022, 15:19:59 »
It would be interesting to a boondoggle where someone tried to make a mech with jump sail mynomers and vacuum rated gear to develop a mech that could work in vacuum without being pressurized and not have (major) issues due to a hull breach. 

I'm sure the expensive toy would be a mess and barely combat viable but it would be neat to see what they would have tried before scrapping the project. 

That and to see a few remaining vacuum mechs that were terrible but didn't care about breaches dealing with an invasion of regular mechs that did have to worry about the breaches.  I would play that scenario.

 

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