MOTW: The SGT-X Saggitire

[Greatclub]

I get that mixed tech makes sense in 3151, but I still hate it, as it means I can't take the mech to my table.

[Colt Ward]

Why?  It is standard 'tech' for the timeframe.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

There's always someone who thinks that any given technological advance in the game is just going too far.  I had a friend who thought that Light engines, Rotary autocannons, Heavy Gauss Rifles, and Stealth Armor were all "munchkin Fanpro Tech" despite the fact that they'd all debuted in the Field Manuals that FASA had published.

[SteelRaven]

I cut my teeth with the Clans so I'm happy we are finally getting to the point where we won't need 2 IS Mechs for every Clan Mech

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Yeah, TRO 3055 was already out by the time I got into the game.

[JadeHellbringer]

I don't have the books anymore (yaaaay flooding apartments), but I seem to recall there was a Sagittaire in one of the Dark Age novels in the hands of a mercenary unit, refitted with standard lasers in place of the pulse models. What that setup looked like in detail, I couldn't tell you- the weight loss would have to go somewhere, and it doesn't have a ton of spare space for heat sinks or any of that. But, it was out there at the very least. I'll see if I can find which book it was, unless someone beats me to it.

[BrianDavion]

I don't have the books anymore (yaaaay flooding apartments), but I seem to recall there was a Sagittaire in one of the Dark Age novels in the hands of a mercenary unit, refitted with standard lasers in place of the pulse models. What that setup looked like in detail, I couldn't tell you- the weight loss would have to go somewhere, and it doesn't have a ton of spare space for heat sinks or any of that. But, it was out there at the very least. I'll see if I can find which book it was, unless someone beats me to it.

It's mentioned on Sarna.net at the least. it sounds like it's a level 1 refit of the Sag.

Sarna describes it as follows

"the BattleMech's XL Engine was swapped for a standard 285 Fusion, its double heat sinks had been swapped out for 32 standard heat sinks, and its targeting computer was removed. The 'Mech was armed with a Standard PPC in center torso, a Large Laser and two Medium Lasers are mounted in the right arm, the left arm has three Medium Lasers mounted on it. Lastly it had a rear-mounted Medium Laser on the head"

the mod works although it would require the loss of a ton of armor.

[Colt Ward]

Yes, Jacob's Jugernauts which I mentioned earlier, in Wolf Hunters.  They make an appearance again when Anastasia sends Yulri's organization to collect them for her pack.

[XenopusTex]

The overgrown pulse-boat mess that demonstrates that the best short-range weapon is a long-range weapon :)

In a grid layout city, this thing would be toast.  Even in the city/large town I currently live in, you can see farther down the vast majority of streets and avenues than even the AC-2 series can shoot.  Terrain topography, hello places like Deadwood, SD, might help it. 

And, given the pathetic ranges of IS pulse lasers, this is just bad.  Per public data, let's say that a city block in Manhattan is ~80x270 meters.  IS LPL maxes at 300 meters range.  That's right folks, if your enemy appears on the far side of the street on the long side of the block, better hope the PPC hits, because depending on which side of the street/road you are on, you might not get there with anything else.  No amount of pulse bonus is going to help if you can't get there from here. 

That all being said, I think that Apollo's Law wouldn't apply to this design.  That could be much uglier.

[Templar87]

I don't have the books anymore (yaaaay flooding apartments), but I seem to recall there was a Sagittaire in one of the Dark Age novels in the hands of a mercenary unit, refitted with standard lasers in place of the pulse models. What that setup looked like in detail, I couldn't tell you- the weight loss would have to go somewhere, and it doesn't have a ton of spare space for heat sinks or any of that. But, it was out there at the very least. I'll see if I can find which book it was, unless someone beats me to it.

There is, the personal 'Mech of Col. Jerry Jamison of Jamison's Juggernauts. The description is thus;


"Lack of funds, not neglect, had reduced the Sagittaire from what it once had been. The rare and valuable - and difficult to maintain - Stalker targeting module had been traded away decades ago, during the nadir of his father's career. Also gone were the extended-range particle projector cannon and the eight state-of-the-art pulse lasers. His father had not left the massive BattleMech defenceless, of course. He had simply traded the high-ticket items for needed supplies, including more common, low-cost and easily maintained weapons. With its torso mounted PPC, large laser-medium laser pair in the right arm and trio of mediums in the left, the Sagittaire was still a machine to be reckoned with. The head's rear-facing medium laser discouraged attacks from behind as well. Shedding the heavy pulse lasers had freed up nearly ten tons of load capacity. Jerry's father had used it to swap out the too-vulnerable 285 XL engine for the tougher and more reliable standard version - keeping everything cool with thirty-two standard heat sinks. Perhaps it did have to get a little bit closer to hit - and hit a little more often to do the same damage - than it once had, but today his Sagittaire could stand up to fire that would have crippled it seventy years ago. And fire all weapons - while riding its HildCo jump jets - with no fear of overheating."
(Wolf Hunters, ch. 30, pgs. 210-211))


(built it out myself, and it does work)

[Starfury]

I always love how the Eridani "Light" Horse end up with assault mechs for their commanders and now the upcoming Kickstarter with the Sagittarie..

As for the unit, I can see the 8R as a good choice for close range battles in locations like crowded city. Maps with lots of buildings,  base defense, heavy forests, jungle and the like. IS pulse lasers suffer from range issues in more open field combat unless they're mounted on faster moving units like the Anvil or the Nightsky. The C3 command variant is an excellent command lance and air defense unit, and fits in with Davion C3 doctrine of the time. As for the rest, I'm not super impressed by the attempts to increase survivability while focusing on VSPLs or Reengineered lasers as your main offensive battery. The fact that none of the variants mount X-Pulse or Large VSPls is a bit suspect in my opinion, but I get the demands of the time.

 A Dark Age mixed tech variant of the baze 8R Sagittaire that does a 1 for 1 IS to Clan swap on the weapons makeup would be horrifying. It would easily balance out with the RecGuide refits of the Black Knight, Marauder II, Marauder, the Lancelot, and the Flashman. 

[Natasha Kerensky]

I always love how the Eridani "Light" Horse end up with assault mechs for their commanders and now the upcoming Kickstarter with the Sagittarie..

The ELH had assault elements in the 50th and 82nd Heavy Cavalry Batts going back to the 3025-era Merc’s Handbook.  Each had around 25 assaults and heavies, along with Von Luckners, Demolishers, Long Toms, and other heavy combat vehicle support.

And the three regimental commanders at that time drove an Atlas, Battlemaster, and Stalker. 

May or may not be reflective of SLDF Light Horse formations, but the precedents for ELH assaults in the late Succession Wars existed from the early days of BT.

In my mind, the bigger weirdness about the ELH TO&E was that they had no SLDF mechs (Mongoose, Crab, Black Knight, Highlander, etc.).  Obviously that was just an artifact of TRO 2750 coming out some years after the original Merc’s Handbook.  But it’s hard to explain in-universe why the ELH and other large, SLDF-descended units had not a single downgraded SLDF design left in their rosters.

[glitterboy2098]

honestly not surprising. while the term 'light horse' originally referred to light cavalry or mounted infantry units, as technology developed IRL they tended to become a lot heavier, with most surviving units now being composed of IFV mounted infantry and MBT's (or occasionally, configured as helicopter infantry)

the terms cavalry, light horse, dragoon, etc IRL today tends to mostly just be used for units trained for quick deployment, rather than equipment choice.

[Wrangler]

It's mentioned on Sarna.net at the least. it sounds like it's a level 1 refit of the Sag.

Sarna describes it as follows

"the BattleMech's XL Engine was swapped for a standard 285 Fusion, its double heat sinks had been swapped out for 32 standard heat sinks, and its targeting computer was removed. The 'Mech was armed with a Standard PPC in center torso, a Large Laser and two Medium Lasers are mounted in the right arm, the left arm has three Medium Lasers mounted on it. Lastly it had a rear-mounted Medium Laser on the head"

the mod works although it would require the loss of a ton of armor.

I'm not sure where in the old forums, I asked the author Kevin Killiany if stats i recreated was correct and he said they were.
However, MUD has never acknowledged the Succession War tech custom.  It only reappeared again but it was back to the standard model SGT-8R version tech again in later novel sarna.net doesn't list where Anastasia Kerensky is bring back the Steel Wolves/Clan Wolf people she broke off to make Wolf Hunters.  I forget the novel. I remembered. Juggernauts joined them since half their crew were Wolves.

[LastChanceCav]

If looks could kill, the SGT wouldnt need a TC  ;D

It was an interesting exploit of the rules when it first came out, but since the rules have moved on it leaves me thinking of more effective options ...

For example: SGT-10W

Cheers,
LCC

[Coldstone]

Personally, I would swap the LPLs of the 8R for Snubnose PPCs. Would also net you two more tons. I would add another med Pulse. AND switching them all to X Pulses, IF I want to keep it fully IS Tech.

[Fat Guy]

Let me just put this here...

[SteelRaven]

Nice!

[Colt Ward]

You know the thing with the Saggy . . . I always wondered if it and the Men Shen had the same artist, though that depends on the Men Shen art.  They are both sloped arrowheads on legs with the point missing and gun pods as arms and IIRC came out in the same book.

Having seen what was done with the Saggy, I would love to see the revisit of the Men Shen even I am in the camp that feels not all art needs revisited.  Like the Arcas . . . love it as it is, I just think the mini's arms need fixing.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Men Shen AKA Dustbuster came out in TRO 3060, the Saggy came out in 3067.

[BrianDavion]

So, it's been some time since I wrote this article, and We've now got a new varient in the form of the SGT-14R.
Fluffed as a new varient made by necessity as the Kuritians stripped the line of some of the high tech toys from the previous SGT-14D varient, and the result is a "back to basics" design utilizing clan lasers from the black Knight line to wonderful effect. Frankly I think the end result is so good the Kuritians may have done the Federated Suns a favor by forcing the redesign

The new varient using the endo composite frame and light engine as the basis, gone is the small cockpit from some of the later varients. weaponry wise it carries some impressive firepower, twin variable speed large pulse lasers, 3 clanspec ER Medium Lasers, 3 Clanspec Small pulse lasers (2 are set to the rear) and, as real treat, a clan spec ER PPC, all tied into a targeting computer and cooled by 17 clanspec double heat sinks. This mech ladies and gentlemen is a terrifying brute out to 15 hexes. and it only gets scarier the closer you get.

Rec Guide 29 says that since the Liberation of Robinson this mech has been flooding into the AFFS to rebuild lost units along the Combine border.
The MUL says this varient is exclusive to the FedSuns, sorry Dracs, you don't get this one.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Either that or some Kurita abomination with every kind of PPC on it

It can be done, I’ve played around with that sort of thing in Skunk Werks before.  HPPC in the torso, Snubbies and LPPC in the arms; etc.


I also did one a while back that converted all the pulse lasers to RELs which is…tougher if you want to maintain the exact same number of lasers, I think it ended up dropping the rear mounts because hey, flippable arms.

[Wrangler]

It does beg question. New Avalon's factories were stripped of it's engineers and equipment to build. 

Its possible Robinson was as well, with Saggitire being taken to Combine in some form.   I can't say I loved the newest variant when I read it stats. 

[BrianDavion]

It does beg question. New Avalon's factories were stripped of it's engineers and equipment to build. 

Its possible Robinson was as well, with Saggitire being taken to Combine in some form.   I can't say I loved the newest variant when I read it stats.

my gut feeling is "no". These are mechs too deeply associated with the fedsuns. my guess is they'll use the expterise to do several things.

1st: they'll take technology that was mostly in the hands of the fedsuns and further refine it, so expect to see RE Lasers become a "thing" on combine mechs.
2nd: Drac engineering tends to have shoddy quality, they may try to improve combine quality standards, and frankly I don't see this working ebcause nothing says quality like engineering teams kidnapped against their will.


but yeah my guess is that we're going to see a series of new combine mechs down the road that "borrow lessons" from Robinson and new Avalon. (and if there's any justice in the battletech universe these designs will be aweful)

[Dragon Cat]

I think the difference between New Avalon and Robinson was that the Combine never expected to hold New Avalon it was at the end of their tongue.

You can see with their actions they stripped everything they could, started destructive mining etc.

Robinson on the other hand had a better chance of being held and being used to support the front lines so it made sense to invest in it

Add to thanks to the Republic Robinson fell far quicker than I think the Combine expected

but yeah my guess is that we're going to see a series of new combine mechs down the road that "borrow lessons" from Robinson and new Avalon. (and if there's any justice in the battletech universe these designs will be aweful)

If there's any justice the ilClan, Rasalhague Dominion and Raven Alliance will get their crap together and flattend the Combine

[God and Davion]

So, it's been some time since I wrote this article, and We've now got a new varient in the form of the SGT-14R.
Fluffed as a new varient made by necessity as the Kuritians stripped the line of some of the high tech toys from the previous SGT-14D varient, and the result is a "back to basics" design utilizing clan lasers from the black Knight line to wonderful effect. Frankly I think the end result is so good the Kuritians may have done the Federated Suns a favor by forcing the redesign

The new varient using the endo composite frame and light engine as the basis, gone is the small cockpit from some of the later varients. weaponry wise it carries some impressive firepower, twin variable speed large pulse lasers, 3 clanspec ER Medium Lasers, 3 Clanspec Small pulse lasers (2 are set to the rear) and, as real treat, a clan spec ER PPC, all tied into a targeting computer and cooled by 17 clanspec double heat sinks. This mech ladies and gentlemen is a terrifying brute out to 15 hexes. and it only gets scarier the closer you get.

Rec Guide 29 says that since the Liberation of Robinson this mech has been flooding into the AFFS to rebuild lost units along the Combine border.
The MUL says this varient is exclusive to the FedSuns, sorry Dracs, you don't get this one.

Thanks for the article!

The latest variant is not that huge of an advancement. And I am not demeaning the new mech, the original mech was a beast and improving it is hard. The good part is that it gets more range and stops being bad 11 hexes away. Now it is way more dangerous at range. The VSPL Large Lasers at close range get a -4 and can do things to light harrasser units. Bad Things. The death zone it creates is bigger now. Overall, it is good but it is more expensive in BV. Still a nasty bodyguard mech with now more tools to use.

[Scotty]

Having a Light Engine and no Small Cockpit would be enough for me to use it by itself.  It's more expensive because it's better.

[Templar87]

I think the difference between New Avalon and Robinson was that the Combine never expected to hold New Avalon it was at the end of their tongue.

You can see with their actions they stripped everything they could, started destructive mining etc.

Given the new Dervish they created, I'd have to disagree. That's a commitment of resources that only really makes sense, especially considering that it involves moving major industrial machinery - the production equipment for ballistic-reinforced armour and their own Clan-spec LRM launchers, neither of which as far as we know the FedSuns were making any progress on producing on their own - to New Avalon. Very much feels like a statement of intent; "We are here, and we intend to stay here." It happens to have been spectacularly badly wrong, but.


As for the new Sagittaire, I admit that while I'd personally prefer twin LReLs over the LVSPLs - that's a me thing, mainly - it is rather a beast.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I took a 14R out into a game this afternoon.  It is, pure and simple, an absolute monster.  At close range I was tossing out both LVSPLs needing 4s to hit when everyone else was needing 8-9.  Really shredded my enemy's mechs.