Author Topic: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech  (Read 12447 times)

marauder648

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Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« on: 01 August 2022, 04:31:08 »
Artillery in the Battletech universe.

In Battletech we’ve got lots of vehicles with artillery weapons on them but three types of guns Sniper, Thumper and Long Tom which are used by all the Great Houses and anyone else. And I will preface this by saying that I’m using modern military equipment and ideas, as well as throwing out the idea that the heaviest artillery pieces have a range of 15,000 meters at most (9 miles), and that in ‘real’ terms, the guns and missiles are a damn sight longer ranged. And in turn, the actual ranges of weapons in Battletech are a lot longer, and that what we get is simplified for tabletop use (lets say that each hex is actually around 100 meters rather than 30 as that makes more sense at least to me).

I would assume that within a Houses Military, that standardisation would be largely the order of the day, at least until the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars threw it out the window. But this does not mean that each House’s artillery is identical, and the name for the different guns is more a generic catchall for light, medium and heavy artillery that’s used in general parlance.

This is the same for autocannons, where you’ve got things like the Marauder’s 105mm autocannon, but other AC-5’s have been described as rapid firing 50mm guns that fire bursts of rounds in a few seconds. Whilst AC-20’s have been described as 203mm cannons firing large individual shells, to very rapidly firing 75mm guns that fire in large, sustained bursts. MechWarrior 5 shows this with the burst fire cannons for example.

So I’d assume that the distinction is roughly this;

Thumper – 105mm – 122mm (4-inch to 4.8-inch)

Sniper – 130 – 175mm (5.1-inch to 6.8-inch)

Long Tom – 180mm – 305mm (7-inch to 12-inch)

With the smaller calibre guns the blast wouldn’t be that different, and a smaller round could have a more advanced and potent explosive charge than a larger round, the end result is still the same damage. Whilst with the bigger guns, I had a far larger spread of gun size because looking at the art for the new Mobile Long Tom that was on Mr Scroggins Patreon. That gun is a LOT bigger than 203mm, and its what got me thinking.

For example, House Steiner might use a 305mm Long Tom cannon, it fires a large, heavy shell and has a long range. House Davion’s home-grown Long Tom however is a 203mm gun, but it uses a flick rammer to fire off 3 rounds in 9 seconds using MRSI or Multiple Rounds, Simultaneous Impact firing to ensure that all 3 rounds arrive at or around the same time. Because if you hammer 3 smaller rounds into a small target area at the same time, you’re not having a nice day if you’re on the receiving end.

And despite being a smaller round, the 203 of the Davion Long Tom has about the same range as the Steiner 305 which needs a bigger propellant charge to fire it, thanks to either being a rocket assisted projectile, or having a base bleed designed shell - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_bleed

Whilst the SLDF would have had a standardized set of guns and calibres for their artillery, the Houses would probably produce their own weapons because it saves money having to wrangle a licence to produce a gun made and designed by someone else. And, whilst they would have their own standard guns across their military, the back and forth of the Succession Wars, especially the 3rd would probably see this being hopelessly destroyed. Because you’d be salvaging and stealing guns off your enemies, which then leaves you with a ‘Sniper’ that fires 175mm shells whereas your home-grown gun fires a 155mm round. Hopefully you’ve also captured a stockpile of shells, otherwise you could find units approaching local manufacturers to produce a comparatively small run of shells based on samples that are given to them. And with this done largely without any centralised control you could have a gun battery assigned to say a Regiment, and within those three batteries, you’ve got ‘Thumpers’ and sure, some are your home grown 105mm rounds but Charlie Battery’s got those four 122mm guns and vehicles that the Cappies use which makes the Regiments quartermaster hate them.

This does throw out the number of shots per ton of ammo but this could be basically handwaved as a gaming simplification. You get 5 shots per ton of Long Tom ammo, meaning each shell’s got to weigh about 200kg. The now retired M110 203mm (8-inch) howitzer’s shell and propellant charge weighed 90kg together, the bigger M1 Howitzer firing a 240mm was 160kg. This could then be taken as a ‘round’ being 3 x 203mm shells from a Long Tom in Davion service, whilst a bigger gun like the hypothetical 305mm Steiner gun is a shell per round.

The biggest change between the SLDF and Succession Wars, using the 4th Succession War as an example would be the change of fire control and spotting.

Going into head canon here, but I’d sat the SLDF would have gunnery systems that would give modern artillery personnel raptures. You’re talking fully integrated gunnery direction and communication systems, allowing Platoon Commanders, and even individual troopers to mark and designate targets. This would be for ‘Mechs, infantry, and anything else. And any guns nearby would get the targeting data and engage as needed. Each gun would have its own onboard electronics (phased radars etc) to aid with accuracy and rather than relying on what people think of an artillery bombardment of massed guns. You’d only need a few guns firing a limited number of shells, all landing in a very tight area to destroy a target. This is what we've actually got today, now. But the SLDF's would probably be smaller, lighter and more powerful in terms of use and flexibility.

But with the loss of technology thanks to the Succession Wars, a lot of these integrated systems went extinct and artillery systems were dumbed down, meaning you needed more guns to get the same kind of effect as the SLDF could do with a handful of weapons.

Whilst the Thor and Thumper largely vanished, you could expect that a fairly simple bit of kit like the Ballista - https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ballista would be able to remain in service. But without the advanced technology of the SLDF, you could well need a full Lance/Battery of such guns to have the same effect on a target as the SLDF would have done with 1 or 2 guns.

This has a real-world correlation as weapon systems and the means of directing them have become more capable.

WW1: Yeah, we need 10.000 shells to disable an enemy gun battery 7km away
WW2: Yeah, we need 2000 shells to disable an enemy gun battery 15km away
Cold War: Yeah, we need 500 shells to disable an enemy gun battery 25km away
Modern Day: Yeah mate, we need about 10 shells to disable that gun battery 50km away

The SLDF would be probably capable of doing the ‘modern day’ equivalent above, and during the 4th Succession War, it would be the ‘Cold War’ equivalent or even WW2, simply due to the loss of technology and the widening gap that technology and training offers.

And this isn’t going into what a missile system like the Arrow IV offers.

In a more modern and lifelike context, an Arrow missile is probably roughly analogous to something like the HIMARS or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MGM-140_ATACMS in terms or role. A single missile that is supremely accurate. Yes the fluff says ‘Arrow IV launchers can be equipped with standard unguided area saturation missiles but that makes little sense when you’ve got artillery cannons for that. Of course they would also be capable of an area attack, but instead of being a simple unguided round, you'd have sensors for detecting and homing in, and then a proximity fuse would trigger for an air burst. At which point it showers the target with a mixture of explosive pellets for anti-armour and fragmentation for 'softer' targets. And if needed, either an FAE or Thermobaric warhead also for an area attack.

I’d see the Arrow IV being almost exclusively the Homing Arrow, or something where you fire it into an area and its got an onboard computer that knows what target to hit thanks to target recognition software. And this, in turn is what killed the Arrow off. It didn’t become lostech, the sensor systems for it did, because without those, you’ve basically got a dumb-fire rocket and its basically as accurate as a SCUD or FROG missile at that point. Just a lot smaller and less destructive, but also expensive to make. Which made it basically militarily useless.

The SLDF would have probably used the Arrow to engage priority or high value targets (HQ’s, logistics/travel hubs, bridges, Command ‘Mechs etc) and it could have seen less use in a general battlefield role. And who knows, if you extrapolate our modern-day military drone and loitering munitions, which writers didn’t know about when coming up with such systems as the Arrow (which I’d say is at least based on the MLRS). The SLDF could have had a loitering Arrow, call it the LAMS or Loitering Arrow Munition System, and they could have been fired and stayed overhead of an advance, waiting for a target designation before a missile or two onto the marked target with the missiles all being networked together to know what missiles were engaging what.

And one could even imagine that ‘Mechs equipped with LRMs, especially those that are tailored for acting as LRM boats would have a small onboard drone launcher that could provide targeting and telemetry data for indirect fire and that the systems for jamming and countering such systems would be beyond what we've got today in terms of EW output. But of course none of this is represented in game.

Just some musings brought about by a discussion yesterday that nestled in my brain. Feedback's always welcome!
« Last Edit: 01 August 2022, 05:11:39 by marauder648 »
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pokefan548

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #1 on: 01 August 2022, 06:37:41 »
Should note for folks out there, the Sniper is the best damage-for-BV of the three, and I feel has a nice sweet spot for damage.
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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #2 on: 01 August 2022, 08:41:08 »
Should note for folks out there, the Sniper is the best damage-for-BV of the three, and I feel has a nice sweet spot for damage.

I love the Sniper cannon the most for that reason, especially since it can force a PSR in the impact hex.  I wish there were more canon designs at a low enough BV to take advantage of the Sniper's BV - something like a Sniper carrier in the same vein as an LRM carrier.  The closest thing that comes to that in canon is field artillery infantry.  If you're using fractional accounting, you can even take multiple ammo types as field artillery.

When I'm using artillery I prefer to pay the BV to skill up their gunnery since I find canon accuracy abysmal.  I also use them as proxies for stand-off air strikes.

I wouldn't recommend the Arrow IV BV-wise unless you plan on using homing rounds in-game.  Otherwise the conventional tube artillery is more efficient for the BV.
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pokefan548

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #3 on: 01 August 2022, 08:43:50 »
I love the Sniper cannon the most for that reason, especially since it can force a PSR in the impact hex.  I wish there were more canon designs at a low enough BV to take advantage of the Sniper's BV - something like a Sniper carrier in the same vein as an LRM carrier.  The closest thing that comes to that in canon is field artillery infantry.  If you're using fractional accounting, you can even take multiple ammo types as field artillery.
Well, if we're being pedantic, the Sniper Cannon can't force a PSR, but yeah, I get you. It's just a real snazzy gun.
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Alan Grant

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #4 on: 01 August 2022, 09:59:44 »
Great writeup, thanks for doing it and examining artillery from a few different angles.

I've been on an artillery kick lately (learning more about arty in BT) so this article was very-well timed. I have to admit it never occurred to me to think of the Thumper/Sniper/Long Tom as categories of weapon systems rather than a specific tube of a specific size/shell. But it does make sense, and from a fluff or writing/roleplaying viewpoint, it makes the world of artillery in BT a lot more diverse and interesting. So thank you for that.

To be honest I've always felt like artillery was under-represented in Battletech. A typical RCT has a battalion of artillery, around 36 guns/launchers. To use a WW2 example a typical infantry or armored division had a full regiment of artillery. Modern militaries also generally field something comparable, even if some of that has been replaced by viable alternatives such as ground attack rotary and fixed wing aircraft.

It's not just the destruction potential. Artillery has always been a great supplier of concealment (smoke), light (illumination rounds). It can be used for breaking up an enemy force or position (tactics that most civilians simply are never exposed to, take a continuous enemy line or position capable of mutual support and split it in half by converging artillery fire on the center of the enemy line, splitting an enemy in half ((unable to support each other)) and allowing an assaulting force to confront and fight just a portion of the enemy force, this kind of employment of artillery has been in the military manuals for decades).

With that in mind, I've always found the relatively small number of artillery in BT vexing given its potential utility. Your explanation that the tech just got better, requiring fewer guns to complete the task, is an interesting rationale.

Your explanation of what happened to the Arrow IV as lost tech also makes some sense to me. With so few missiles per ton, Arrow IV's are a rather expensive and inefficient way to provide an unguided area bombardment. If the Arrow IV's guidance systems did become lostech, and all you could manage was the unguided saturation missiles, then the weapon system starts to lose its appeal since you can use LRMs and tube artillery to fill a lot of the same mission roles.

So good job with this.

marauder648

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #5 on: 01 August 2022, 11:24:02 »
Thank you :) With regards to needing less guns, its something we're doing now. A platoon of modern SPG guns like the PzH 2000's (3 to 4 vehicles) has the same fighting power as a full battery of M109 SPH's (12 vehicles) from the 70's and 80's. Their rate of fire, their fire control systems and accuracy thanks to GPS guided shells, as well as their burst firing capability mean that the smaller number of vehicles can fire off far more shells and be far more accurate.

As an example, an early M109 could sustain 4 RPM for 3 minutes. A PzH2000 can do 10 RPM for 5 minutes. So over 3 minutes before they run out of ammo or start slowing down because the crew are getting exhausted, at full rate a battery of M109's would fire off about 144 rounds. Four PzH 2000's can do 200 rounds, and this is before an enemy has had time to counter battery you. And the PzH's rounds will be coming down in a far more precise area whereas the 109's would have to largely blanket an area to hit their target, which would reduce the impact on the target because not all those rounds are hitting, whilst with the modern artillery, you can bet your bottom dollar that most are going to be coming down in a very tight group in, on and around your target.

There's also the range advantage of modern weapons. A M109A5, one of the more modern upgrades can reach out to somewhere on the order of 22,000 meters. The Pzh does 36,000. With rocket assisted rounds its 30,000 vs 47,000. Thats a difference of near as damn it 10 miles. There's simply no need for the old massed guns of WW2 or the period after.

And whilst the Battletech setting is still rather the future but 1980's, you can bet that they'd have these level of advancements now. And that what the SLDF could do would be even more impressive than anything we've got now. A case of not 'I want to hit that building' but 'I want to hit that very specific window' from 40 miles away.

Its the same with missiles, i'm sure you remember the amazing footage from the Gulf war of the MLRS firing, back then, you'd need a full Platoon of 4 vehicles firing to destroy a target. Now, you'd need one of the updated M270A2's to do it or a pair of HIMARS, thanks to advances in fire control and missile guidance. Expending 48 missiles when you'd need 12 now. Its come that far in 32 years. An Arrow would be like that, you'd designate a target, lets say a fuel depot or bridge the enemy has captured and you'd need one or two missiles at most.

And the Arrow IV missile system (again a probable catch-all designation for a number of broadly similar missiles) is very flexible, its warheads can be used to deploy mines, or at as anti-armour weapons, area attack, incediary and cluster and more, the things even a SAM as well as an air launched ground attack weapon.

I think that you could go that the Arrow missile actually lead to the Thunderbolt missile. A case of "We've got the capacity to make this missile that can take a big warhead but the long range use is very limited. Why not make it more direct fire or mate it with an LRM's guidance? Sure you loose the range and accuracy, but its still a big 'ol missile that will hurt when it hits."



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pokefan548

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #6 on: 01 August 2022, 11:30:08 »
Actually, this all reminds me though... we still need gauss artillery. Need me some Metal Gear.
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marauder648

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #7 on: 01 August 2022, 12:06:02 »
Actually, this all reminds me though... we still need gauss artillery. Need me some Metal Gear.

With hypervelocity stuff like a Gauss, its great for direct fire stuff, or REALLY long range. Like

"Fire control?"
"Yes Ma'am"
"See this house on the satellite picture?"
"Yes Ma'am, 1803km away"
"Ruin its day."
"Right away Ma'am!"

Because a gauss/rail weapon for artillery purposes would be a strategic weapon more akin to something like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_Orbital_Bombardment_System

Because the speed of it would mean that any ballistic curving would take a looooooong time to take into affect, so if you wanted to hit something within say 50-60km a hyper velocity gauss weapon would be a waste. Unless you was firing down on it from orbit.
« Last Edit: 01 August 2022, 12:08:38 by marauder648 »
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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #8 on: 01 August 2022, 12:09:40 »
Makes perfect sense Marauder. Thanks for breaking it down with actual math, I'm impressed.

Another thing about artillery in BT that surprises me is that more mercenary units haven't emphasized it. After all, if employed correctly it can lessen your casualties, resulting an expenditure of ammunition instead of lives and front-line equipment.

It does get referenced here and there in a few units, but not a lot of them.

My suspicion is that it's present, but doesn't appear in the FM: Mercs books in many unit entries. If the book shows a pure mercenary 'mech regiment with little to no supporting forces, I've often suspected there's a small presence of other types (i.e. combat engineers, engineering vehicles, artillery, infantry detachment serving as security) that are treated more like supporting units attached to the unit's HQ than line units. That the FMs have to simplify some things.

Evidence to this in my mind has always been the 4th SW Atlas books. Which love to attach some small number of artillery to the Regimental BattleGroups of most units. Even tacking on an artillery battery under the "Typical Motorized Infantry Regiment" and "Typical Armored Regiment" breakdowns.

So even mercs aside, I've always wondered if perhaps artillery is more common even in House units than it would appear on paper in the Field Manuals. If for example, the battalion of artillery in an RCT is just the standalone unit of artillery reporting to the RCT level HQ. As opposed to organic artillery battery that might be found within each armor or infantry regiment within the RCT.

Forgive me, this post veered in a couple directions. But they felt related.

marauder648

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #9 on: 01 August 2022, 12:35:32 »
Probably with Merc units, whilst artillery might be a good equalizer or give you an edge, its also probably pretty resource intensive.

You'd need the vehicles for them, the gunners who would need to be trained (and conduct regular training), you've then got the personnel maintaining those vehicles alongside their crew, and the ammunition costs, as well as paying for some motorized ammo carriers and the like.

And its a case of getting the guns as well, as I doubt unless you're a fully accreddited unit that has a history of working for the House of the place that you've gone to see if they'll sell you the guns, that they'd not touch you with a stick. Because the guns are for military units and they'd not want to sell stuff that could be turned against them and then traced back to X firm who are now war profiteering.

This is all expensive stuff, from maintaining to supplying and there the training costs. Which would put artillery out of the reach of most Merc formations unless they're BIG and very successful.

With regards to the guns for an RCT in your example, its a curious one. Here the artillery battalion of the RCT seems to act pretty much as the Colonel's 'Shotgun' and are something under their control. What might happen is that the guns are broken up into say 3 gun batteries and are parcelled out but this could depend on the CO. If he or she wants the ability to call down fire on X location and do so with overwhelming force, then the Battalion as part of the HQ would be the tool to do so. And don't forget that a full sized artillery battalion would, in theory be 108 guns. That's a HUGE amount of firepower. So the Mech Regiments would probably get that parcelled out to them.

I would assume that the armoured Regiment and Infantry would probably have their own organic weapons. The tanks would have SPGs, whilst the infantry would have the space equivalent of a D-30 or L118 Light gun or an M777 or whatever, but these would be towed guns. But the BIG guns, if there's any Long toms, would be the sole preserve of the CO.

An infantry or armour regiment might have a Battery or two, say 12 guns max, enough to break up and put with units and provide fire support, or if needed to be massed to engage a target.

And during a major battle, lets say your RCT is part of a multi RCT attack on a world in the 4th Succession War, then the higher command might well assign more regiments to the units going in on the attack. It all really depends on the kind of combat.

If you're doing a form of Blitzkrieg attack which relies on speed, initiative and aggression, then towed artillery is of little use once the initial attack takes place and the 'Mechs are moving out on the assault because they'll be left behind. But they can then support follow up forces or shell deeper into an enemies rear once fire on any forward targets is shifted.

Perhaps they're doing something similar to the French WW2 doctrine of 'Controlled battle' which was HUGELY reliant on artillery, and was a tightly controlled form of battle fighting which was basically about getting hit, using artillery and fire to smash an enemy and then launching a very strong counter attack. In this, where you're expecting the enemy to hit you at X location then HQ might give you all the guns you need, as well as the Long Tom's on tap to deal with particuarly stubborn hostiles.

We can assume that an infantry regiment would have a lot of organic things, they'd have their own air defence be they MANPADS fired from the shoulder, or tracked/wheeled short to medium ranged SAM's or ones on pre-deployed mountings. Whilst artillery support would range from Mortar sections attached to individual companies, up to an attached organic battery of towed guns. But this isn't seen or mentioned purely to make things more manageable on the tabletop or in books without having formations balloon rapidly in size.



« Last Edit: 01 August 2022, 12:37:58 by marauder648 »
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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #10 on: 01 August 2022, 17:21:13 »
Slight correction. FM: Fed Suns shows a breakdown of an RCT on page 18 and it shows the Artillery Battalion to have "36 artillery pieces."

I suspect this battalion is self-propelled guns. Considering when they do appear in the RCT listings the AB (Artillery Battalion) is usually listed under the armor brigade. It would also help make that 36 number make sense since that's the size of an armor battalion in Battletech.

Also the same book elaborates a little more on artillery in the section on the Ceti Hussars pages. Which separates the artillery from the Combat Commands. Under the 1st Ceti Hussars it just says the artillery reports to the RCT headquarters. The 2nd Hussars is said to have one of the lightest in service with 24 of the lightest caliber guns, and 6 Arrow-IV platforms helping to make up for that deficiency. The 3rd Ceti Hussars has 3 artillery battalions and is described as possessing over a hundred tubes, in addition to missile and anti-air defense platforms. It's described as being able to lay down artillery barrages that can shatter the resolve of entire divisions.

A few RCTs get an entire artillery regiment. This is usually called out as rare and noteworthy in FM: FS.

Speaking of artillery organization, FM: FWL, page 21 describes an artillery battery as 4-6 Long Toms or 8-12 Snipers, attached to regimental command groups. But it doesn't say how many batteries is typical.

Given FM: FWL's age, I'm not sure the Thumper existed then. More than one person has told me that in the old days the only artillery around were Long Toms and Snipers and that Thumpers were added to the game later.

According to FM: SLDF, each Division was assigned a regiment of artillery. Artillery vehicle regiments were typically assigned to divisions. But so were towed artillery regiments, those fell under the control of Trooper Subcommand (whereas the self-propelled ones fell under Armor Subcommand). The SLDF also had airmobile artillery batteries which got assigned their own special air transportation and often served with jump infantry divisions.

Feels like the SLDF had a lot of artillery by later Greater House standards.
« Last Edit: 01 August 2022, 17:33:05 by Alan Grant »

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #11 on: 01 August 2022, 17:50:04 »
With hypervelocity stuff like a Gauss, its great for direct fire stuff, or REALLY long range. Like

"Fire control?"
"Yes Ma'am"
"See this house on the satellite picture?"
"Yes Ma'am, 1803km away"
"Ruin its day."
"Right away Ma'am!"

Because a gauss/rail weapon for artillery purposes would be a strategic weapon more akin to something like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_Orbital_Bombardment_System

Because the speed of it would mean that any ballistic curving would take a looooooong time to take into affect, so if you wanted to hit something within say 50-60km a hyper velocity gauss weapon would be a waste. Unless you was firing down on it from orbit.

Could you reduce the speed the round is fired?  A Gauss artillery's muzzle velocity would be based on power input, so by reducing the power input you should be able to fire the shots at a lower speed.  Compare that with dedicated propelling charges used in current artillery that don't allow as much variation, so the only way to vary the range is to change the barrel angle.

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #12 on: 01 August 2022, 18:47:05 »
Just popping in to drop a single word: "Thermobaric"...  ^-^

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #13 on: 01 August 2022, 19:35:12 »
Could you reduce the speed the round is fired?  A Gauss artillery's muzzle velocity would be based on power input, so by reducing the power input you should be able to fire the shots at a lower speed.  Compare that with dedicated propelling charges used in current artillery that don't allow as much variation, so the only way to vary the range is to change the barrel angle.

actually, y'all, they DO vary powder charge in addition to muzzle angle on field artillery.  One of the reasons red-legs have to do all that schoolin', is that they have ballistic tables that include load data.  (three bags of 'red' are significantly different from the other colors/charges).

individual shell weight (the projectile) ALSO differ in modern artillery.  HE shells don't tend to have the same weight as Frag or Flare.

Thing is, it's a whole science and art of its own that includes meteorology (to calculate winds at altitude), calculus to work out your drop (when firing in support of an advance, or 'marching fire', and so on.)

gamewise as comlex as some people feel the Artillery rules are, they're not NEARLY as complex, as running a real-world artillery gun, and don't offer nearly as many options for solving a problem.

(Provided said problem can be solved by the application of violence).

For another example, you can fire multiple shells up to a minute apart, and have them land and detonate at the same time on the other end by varying your angle, and your powder charge.  to do this in BAttletech, you'd need to move a whole mapsheet to do the same thing.

You can theoretically load a frag round, and then load an HE for the same target, and fire the HE after you fire the frag, and have it arrive before the frag round. (or vice-versa).

The rules to cover the sort of fire missions that are trained for and possible in the real world, would take up a sourcebook by themselves.
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Daryk

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #14 on: 01 August 2022, 19:56:53 »
No doubt!  8)

blitzy

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #15 on: 02 August 2022, 04:14:22 »
And one could even imagine that ‘Mechs equipped with LRMs, especially those that are tailored for acting as LRM boats would have a small onboard drone launcher that could provide targeting and telemetry data for indirect fire and that the systems for jamming and countering such systems would be beyond what we've got today in terms of EW output. But of course none of this is represented in game.

If you go with the MWO example, all mechs have that by default.
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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #16 on: 02 August 2022, 06:35:53 »
With hypervelocity stuff like a Gauss, its great for direct fire stuff, or REALLY long range. Like

"Fire control?"
"Yes Ma'am"
"See this house on the satellite picture?"
"Yes Ma'am, 1803km away"
"Ruin its day."
"Right away Ma'am!"

Because a gauss/rail weapon for artillery purposes would be a strategic weapon more akin to something like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_Orbital_Bombardment_System

First thing that came to mind was Stonehenge from Ace Combat.

I'm sure ground-based naval Gauss or mass drivers could do this effectively, though probably not at the house level...  Maybe at the town level  :o
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Colt Ward

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #17 on: 02 August 2022, 08:44:18 »
I love the Sniper cannon the most for that reason, especially since it can force a PSR in the impact hex.  I wish there were more canon designs at a low enough BV to take advantage of the Sniper's BV - something like a Sniper carrier in the same vein as an LRM carrier.  The closest thing that comes to that in canon is field artillery infantry.  If you're using fractional accounting, you can even take multiple ammo types as field artillery.

Check out the Ballista https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Ballista which meets that sort of simplicity . . . just 5 tons overweight, but around mid 500s BV using the Sniper.  Then you have https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Thumper_(Combat_Vehicle) that using the ICE has around the same BV but is wheeled (faster) and has some support weapons.

Reading more of this, I can already see some errors . . .
« Last Edit: 02 August 2022, 08:56:46 by Colt Ward »
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mbear

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #18 on: 02 August 2022, 09:02:03 »
(snip)

For example, House Steiner might use a 305mm Long Tom cannon, it fires a large, heavy shell and has a long range. House Davion’s home-grown Long Tom however is a 203mm gun, but it uses a flick rammer to fire off 3 rounds in 9 seconds using MRSI or Multiple Rounds, Simultaneous Impact firing to ensure that all 3 rounds arrive at or around the same time. Because if you hammer 3 smaller rounds into a small target area at the same time, you’re not having a nice day if you’re on the receiving end.
(snip)

I think you're overlooking something: Standardization Agreements. There's no reason that the SLDF/Star League couldn't have imposed three standard shell diameters on their artillery. Then the Houses would agree to use the same diameters because it made their logistics easier. As an example, consider how NATO partners have 105mm and 155mm artillery shells which can be used by any "NATO compatible" artillery. In the Star League, everyone is a member of NATO, so they'd all use the same shell diameters. Then the House militaries just keep using that SLDF compatible ammunition specification because they can't think of anything better and it works well enough.

And adding new capabilities to artillery might be found by modifying the existing shells rather than creating a new gun caliber. As someone mentioned there are thermobaric rounds, and Copperhead laser guided munitions. No new gun but updated shell capabilities.

I have no comment on the Arrow system. I think that would be more likely to vary, but you've covered that well.
« Last Edit: 02 August 2022, 09:04:59 by mbear »
Be the Loremaster:

Battletech transport rules take a very feline approach to moving troops in a combat zone: If they fits, they ships.

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your BT experience. Now what? (Thanks Sartis!)

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #19 on: 02 August 2022, 10:03:25 »
Thing is, it's a whole science and art of its own that includes meteorology (to calculate winds at altitude), calculus to work out your drop (when firing in support of an advance, or 'marching fire', and so on.)

gamewise as comlex as some people feel the Artillery rules are, they're not NEARLY as complex, as running a real-world artillery gun, and don't offer nearly as many options for solving a problem.

This . . . so much . . . when folks try to give reasons BT's artillery is inaccurate besides being smashed by the Nerf bat.  Artillery is math . . . if your math has degraded to that point, you are not breaking atmo.

Also Arrow IV is not like HIMARS . . . Arrow IV is like a single type of round fired by HIMARS/MLRS (M270), the difference between the two is based on number of 'launchers.'

The reason we do not see a mass of guns, now is two-fold.

First- no one is fighting a conventional war.  If it was, tube artillery would get cranked out like infantry . . . . because artillery is a force multiplier.

Second- because of a doctrine shift. 

The development of gunpowder artillery is sort of like a bell curve.  During the development of gunpowder driven artillery increased their destructiveness by increasing the size of the cannonball (and later developed shells) in a brute force method as the first line of improvement.  Later you would see advances in chemistry that produced more muzzle velocity, more reliable explosion/burn, better fuses, and when shells were developed better bursting charges.  During the same time gunpowder was advancing, we were also improving the weapon itself . . . metallurgy- important for bore pressures & weapon weight/mobility, fuse types, tightened tolerances & general uniformity in platforms, aiming/sights, and a whole host of other technologies.

Important to note is that during this time, defenses against artillery were increasing as well- look at a castle of the 13xxs and compare it to a fort of the 18xxs.  This also spurred the improvements to artillery because now those who used artillery had to counter the counters.

Bigger is better for tactical use probably peaked around WWI . . . you see massive guns that took a LOT of effort to get into position but could not be easily moved in support of the advance.  I want to say they had artillery ranging from 55mm all the way up to over 400mm as part of troop support.  With the improvement of mobility that saw a lot of the doctrinal shift in the lead up to WWII, while not said out loud the opinion seemed to be- what good is a gun that cannot keep up with the troops when they advance and fall back?  The massive guns could not be employed as much as the smaller more mobile guns, either towed or SP.

The inter-war period also saw that as part of a change in doctrine.  Materials and manufacturing improvements narrowed the bore tolerances which made things more accurate, but lessons applied on the use of artillery from WWI were also studied- including the psychological/morale impact.  Methods such as bombarding, lifting the bombarding so troops ran back to their positions in trenches, bombarding once the troops resumed their positions . . . repeat this a few times and you could 'train' the defenders to expect a bombardment so they would be slower to resume their positions.  When the defenders started to get into the pattern, slow to retake positions to avoid casualties from late/early shells . . . low & behold, one time the bombardment does not resume.  Instead your troops had crossed no man's land and were taking the trenches while the more lethargic defenders might still be hunkered in their bunkers.

So employing artillery became more about finesse than brute power.  Some of the earlier outliers, like defensive positions pre-registering enemy positions (noting lay, azimuth, charge) became a standard practice.  Specific types of fire missions were developed like Time on Target (how to get the guns from multiple positions to fire and have all the shells to impact at the same time), fire plans (specific target lists to be hit at specific times by specific guns, and working through the list) in support of attacks, and close coordination with other components like the creation of forward observers to give instructions to firing units.  Or later such as the creation of air support corridors . . . because having a shell pass through your aircraft can ruin a lot of people's day.

The understanding of ballistic mechanics for artillery became more refined.  Factors such as air pressure (IE, coastal vs mountain passes), standardized pre-bagged charges producing X muzzle velocity, different shell weights & shapes, bore length, stability of the firing position, recoil absorption & returning to 'in battery' position, and many other details went into refining the math to create predictability which creates accuracy.  FREX, think of the movies or reenactment you see of firing US Civil War or Napoleonic era cannon vs something like the German 88s.  When those earlier artillery cannon fired it would move the whole carriage- the recoil rolling it backwards was the resistance to offset the muzzle velocity while modern guns use mechanical/hydraulic processes to control the recoil and the structure of the 'carriage' (or vehicle) to absorb the recoil that gets past the system.

What this means is that even if a US Civil War gun hit exactly where the gunner wanted, they could not immediately repeat the shot because the whole firing platform had moved and now had to be lined back up in the same place to get back 'in battery.'  While a more modern gun's firing position has not changed because where it is mounted has not really moved.

Since WWII tactical artillery has been decreasing in caliber . . . to the point that in the US they no longer have heavy/medium/light artillery in the post WWII sense.  They commonly used to have 205mm, 155mm, and 105mm & 75mm . . . heck, some formations still used those 55mm pieces, typically mobility constrained formations like airborne, marines & mountain troops.  Flipside was IIRC 305mm & 255mm was in use during WWII IIRC.  The 205mm was retired by the 80s IIRC.  I know after Desert Storm the US went from 3 firing platoons for the MLRS M270 to 2 in a battery- said to be doctrine b/c of destructiveness, I also think it was part of the post Cold War draw down.

But the other reason is you do not end up with huge artillery parks firing on targets goes back to the earlier mention of competition between artillery & fortifications to offset it.  Doctrine now prevents that for peer conflict because of one simple advancement . . . true accurate counterbattery fire.  IIRC during the 18xxs a fort commander in some foothills tried to use the sound of artillery firing to find where guns were placed to return fire for masked guns.  Radar lets either side track where a shot comes from so that guns that are ready can fire back to catch the firing side before they displace.  So no longer can guns survive parking in big groups and not moving . . . Shoot, Move, Communicate, BOOM BOOM is the cadence that I recall.
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Daryk

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #20 on: 02 August 2022, 19:08:04 »
One would think you were a Red Leg...  ^-^

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #21 on: 02 August 2022, 19:52:32 »
I still miss my Renegade Legion Centurion artillery tanks.. HEL rounds were so much fun...

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #22 on: 02 August 2022, 20:55:51 »
THOR rounds are the best in my opinion...  8)

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #23 on: 03 August 2022, 05:52:59 »
I definitely feel like artillery is getting more writers' attention in the current era. In FM: 3145 the word "artillery" appears 45 times. It's use in battles and the preferred tactics and strategies of specific units gets called out a lot more in the pages of that book. We've also seen a lot more new artillery vehicles from 3085 onward. FM: Mercs Supplemental Updates also gave us Thor's Hammers, an artillery-focused merc unit.

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #24 on: 03 August 2022, 09:37:07 »
Artillery has seen more exposure, but we had a period where they were trying to create more vehicles as well.  IRL artillery vehicles and their supports get interesting . . . they are either purpose built vehicles or repurposing of old vehicles (or designs) that were pulled from frontline use though that is no longer as common.  I will say a lot of the repurposing is usually a wartime push.

IIRC the old 8-inch SP artillery basically used a WWII designed track system though it was replaced over time with the purpose built M109.  I know based on a article I saw last night the first of them used in Korea did use a light tank chassis that just never put the armor and turret on the design.  Russian Katyusha from WWII and later could also fall into that category, to the point you could even consider them technicals.  I really wish we had some equivalent besides a LRM Carrier since it can actually reload.

Purpose built vs re-purposed vehicle could also come down to some of what I mentioned previously about getting more capability from your artillery system.  A purpose designed vehicle is just going to give better performance that one re-purposed but that is a degree of capability improvement that would be reflected in quirks if at all in TW's abstractions.  Consider what marauder648 said about a German system, the US canceled their version which was the Crusader program (Paladin replacement) in '01 or '02, which uses the tube's elevation and different charge levels to let a single tube perform it's own time on target attack for effect- in the case of Crusader they could get 8 155mm shells to land on a target at the same time.  Such a capability is going to require a special built turret for elevation & traverse and recoil system.

Repurposed vehicles tend to be outdated designs- turret cannot be updated to accept the current generation of weapons, underpowered at the current weight (M113 vs M1068), or even advances in protection, again M113 vs Bradley or Strykers.  The only one I can think of that might still be in US inventory would be the M113s repurposed as Mortar carriers for the heavy mechanized forces.  The Stryker mortar carrier is a purpose built vehicle modifying the chassis as part of the overall design process, part of the reason they call it the 'Stryker family' of vehicles.  For our purposed this would be like stripping the turret off a Vedette or Bulldog to cram on a Sniper- or taking the AC/20 out of a Hetzer to give it the same type gun.  Or Goblins with Thumpers.  I know I had my mercs using trashed LRM Carriers that they refurb'd into dual A4 Carriers.


Oh, one other point about artillery . . . capturing your enemy's artillery was a clear cut sign of victory.  You did not need to say you won the battle, you captured their artillery train meant it was a crushing victory.
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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #25 on: 03 August 2022, 11:14:36 »
Repurposed vehicles tend to be outdated designs- turret cannot be updated to accept the current generation of weapons, underpowered at the current weight (M113 vs M1068), or even advances in protection, again M113 vs Bradley or Strykers.  The only one I can think of that might still be in US inventory would be the M113s repurposed as Mortar carriers for the heavy mechanized forces.  The Stryker mortar carrier is a purpose built vehicle modifying the chassis as part of the overall design process, part of the reason they call it the 'Stryker family' of vehicles. For our purposed this would be like stripping the turret off a Vedette or Bulldog to cram on a Sniper- or taking the AC/20 out of a Hetzer to give it the same type gun.  Or Goblins with Thumpers.  I know I had my mercs using trashed LRM Carriers that they refurb'd into dual A4 Carriers.

I really want these variants to be canon 8)
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Colt Ward

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #26 on: 03 August 2022, 11:24:46 »
*shrug*  Repurposed vehicles would tend to be field refits, or at least start out that way in BT IMO.  I mentioned those because I have used all of them in campaigns for mercs or militias trying to get some sort of artillery support.
Colt Ward
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AldanFerrox

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #27 on: 03 August 2022, 11:38:11 »
I really want these variants to be canon 8)

Field Manual: Draconis Combine mentions SRM Carriers refitted with Arrow IV launchers used by Ryuken-yon.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #28 on: 03 August 2022, 12:16:38 »
Huh, Pg 129 per Sarna . . . now we just have to bug TPTB for a RS, lol.  Probably some discussion of that 15 years ago is what led me to have my Chaos March mercs refit the trashed LRM Carriers.

Another thing that contributes to mercs, militias and personal guards creating artillery vehicle from repurposed vehicles is that you can buy salvage quality vehicles.  A gutted shell of armor, a vehicle stripped of its main/only weapon (merc mech company captures a Hetzer, strips out the AC/20 to replace the destroyed one on their Victor), or even the vehicles with their turrets blown up/off are all candidates to get rebuilt as something other than their stock build.

Makes me wonder about Thumper Artillery armed IndiMechs to get something with the mobility of a mech even if it is not as good as a full Battlemech.

One other thing that had not been mentioned in regards to BT is the reloading/ammo handling job.  The Clan Invasion KS Tukayyid stories had a ComStar Long Tom battery working over the Jaguars advance and to reload the guns the ComGuard had gun bunnies using exo-skeletons to increase their lifting ability.  The Star League might have even had IndustrialMechs- specifically LoaderMechs- being used to move ammunition to service the guns.  LoaderMechs and exo-skeletons would be a great way to increase the efficiency of personnel assigned to towed and even some SP artillery.

Some things to consider in regards to size/cumbersomeness for shells-
105mm- a bit of the shell is in the brass


155mm- just the shell


8in/203mm- resting in a 2 man carry


Atomic Annie, a 280mm round


16in shell with a white charge


This is the design I read came from a light tank chassis used in Korea firing a 8in (or 203mm)-
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Cannonshop

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Re: Here come the guns! Artillery in Battletech
« Reply #29 on: 03 August 2022, 12:17:11 »
*shrug*  Repurposed vehicles would tend to be field refits, or at least start out that way in BT IMO.  I mentioned those because I have used all of them in campaigns for mercs or militias trying to get some sort of artillery support.

for that matter, for years I've used repurposed Rommel Chassis.  (Strip the AC/20, replace with Thumper or Arrow), in part because it's a straight-across-trade.  (Turret weight remains the same.  The Thumper conversion gets some absurd endurance as a bombardment platform though-four tons of Thumper is 80 rounds of play to the AC/20's four tons giving 20 shots.  This is enough on tabletop to start the game session with artillery fire and just keep firing every turn, with a chassis that is at least as mobile as your other heavy tanks, which can make counterbattery and headhunting a bit...challenging.)

In general, and I know some of you have strong arguments against it, I have found my best practices with Arty, requires 4 tubes minimum.

what for?

terrain denial.long as I watch my OWN movement with my forward units, four tubes creates a 'beaten zone' that is dangerous for lighter opponent units (infantry, light tanks, light 'mechs) to cross.  (this has actually proven useful, because even if they don't get hit immediately, you can make half a mapsheet of area most players will consciously avoid because they're risk-averse.)

preregistering the best positions for an opponent to site his snipers also works, and with deep (and I mean DEEP) ammo fractions, you can make it cost him to say  'oh it's only a thumper.'

Now, as I said, this isn't a universally held view. MOST prominent forumites who use Arty at all, tend to think 2 is fine, and of course, most of the scenario designers are under the impression that 1 is fine.

but I stick with four tubes, and try to lay down fires that influence my opponent's decision making rather than counting on it to simply win by annihilation.
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