Rasalhague Dominion: The voting will continue until morale improves!

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Even if clans run all Ferro-lam and Clan Interface you don’t gain a whole lot

Skinwalker: 24tons, 31crits
Stormcrow: 23 tons, 33 crits,

For a gain of about 10 armor points (in 5 damage groupings) among other things, for a lot of esoteric and extra rules. Plus while in universe they aren’t worried about BV, they can’t go making the BV disparity so large we can’t play the game at all. And in universe it’s a lot of work to justify that large shift.

Clusters need to change, and we are the only clan(ish) in any position to make that change. Our population, manufacturing, and ‘unity’ can lead to a third way (ignore that comstar existed at one point).

One of the reasons I generally dislike using Fire Moths on the table: the map size is generally too small in most of my games to effectively use their speed. BV is great for game balancing… but when your mechs are all 2K+ BV versus their mechs which are half 3/4 the cost with the same weaponry….

I do think the armor/infantry formations of the Inner Sphere in the modern era ‘should’ give a significant pause to any opposing Clan force that we should consider such a switch to our own forces. First Line being offensive focused, second line being supporting armor/BA/ and Aerospce, and third line being garrison/defensive minded units (although those designations might want to be renamed). Upthread someone mentioned Claws, Phalanx’s, and Valkyries: that would be decent descriptions for the support forces.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Even if clans run all Ferro-lam and Clan Interface you don’t gain a whole lot

Skinwalker: 24tons, 31crits
Stormcrow: 23 tons, 33 crits,

For a gain of about 10 armor points

The Skinwalker is one of the best canon platforms in the game, but it’s still sub-optimally designed (armor should be higher), and it doesn’t really layer on the technologies and show what can be done with them.

For example, the Prime on this Omni is a Stone Rhino clone that adds Void-Sig, Ferro-Lam, Reinforced Structure, and an Interface Cockpit.  It inflicts a +3 targeting modifier on opponents just by staying stationary.  When opponents hit, they’re facing over 340 effective points of armor (more if they’re using SRMs, LB-X cluster, etc.).  And if they penetrate, then they’re up against doubled internal structure points and lower crit roll chances.  Offensively, it can still send two Gauss and two large pulse shots downrange a turn, with the Void-Sig on, at a -1 to-hit (-3 for the large pulses).

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/ilclan-series-khan-great-wolf-assault-omnimech/

This is a Hellstar with both an Interface Cockpit and Targeting Computer, which gives its four ER PPCs the same -2 to-hit modifier as pulse lasers.  Interface Cockpits, AES, and Artemis V can also stack modifiers this way.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/doomstar-hellstar-4-variants/

No Interface Cockpit on this Battlemaster, but the combination of Hardened Armor (nearly 370 effective armor points), Reinforced Structure, TSM, and Clantech energy battery make it a terrifying enough. 

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/wargod-battlemaster-iic/msg1880038/#msg1880038

Again, no Interface Cockpit, but this Osprey combines 7MP from improved jump jets/partial wing with 30+ point kicks from TSM/Talons, again with a solid Clantech energy battery.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/saker-osprey-iic/msg1872388/#msg1872388

And again, no Interface Cockpit.  But this Mongoose can run 11MPs, inflicts +2 to +4 targeting mods at range with Chameleon LPS, uses Hardened Armor to sport the protection of a 50-60 tonner, and can still put two to three 10-point hits into an opponent with heavy mediums.

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/black-cat-mongoose-iic/

I’m not saying these are the the end-all, be-all.  But they show what can be done with aggressive use of tech and smart design.  If there was a desire to make a faction that with qualitatively better equipment than the rest, there’s a lot of good design space that is not getting explored in the TROs and RGs.  (Elstars are also unexplored if the quality of Clan warriors also needed to come up.)

Since this is a Bear thread, these are Kodiaks with real (not cosmetic) Claws and TSM:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/battlemechs/spirit-bear-kodiak-iii-ghost-bear-kodiak-iii-2-totem-assault-mechs/msg1887370/#msg1887370

Plus while in universe they aren’t worried about BV, they can’t go making the BV disparity so large we can’t play the game at all.

This is always the problem with ahistorical (and some historical) wargames.  Gameplay demands fairness, but real war is anything but fair, so the games don’t feel like real war.  “Realistic” Clan toumans would be pursuing these technologies and these kinds of combinations with abandon, not designing with one arm behind their back for decades/a century.

Clusters need to change, and we are the only clan(ish) in any position to make that change. Our population, manufacturing, and ‘unity’ can lead to a third way (ignore that comstar existed at one point).

I wonder how much military manufacturing capacity is left in the Terran system from the Republic, Blakies, ComStar, and Terran Hegemony that the Wolves can convert to Clantech and use to equip a new SLDF.  Might be a lot.  Would be interesting to see the return of SLDF division-scale units.

I do think the armor/infantry formations of the Inner Sphere in the modern era ‘should’ give a significant pause to any opposing Clan force that we should consider such a switch to our own forces. First Line being offensive focused, second line being supporting armor/BA/

There’s a lot of untapped potential in quadvees.  They are fundamentally much more survivable than combat vehicles, and the canon designs are very suboptimal.  If I was a Khan with lots of resources and wanted to stiffen my secondline/garrison forces, the first thing I’d do is replace most of my tracked and wheeled tanks with quadvees.  Would double or triple the bang per crew.  I wish they would proliferate beyond the Horses.

Protos are also untapped potential as a low-cost force multiplier.  But again relegated to just a couple factions.

Both would help make the Clans more alien again.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The other reason we're probably not going to see significant proliferation for most of that tech is because with the exception of things like the XTROs, TPTB probably want to keep most new mechs primarily tournament legal.

[Jellico]

The other reason we're probably not going to see significant proliferation for most of that tech is because with the exception of things like the XTROs, TPTB probably want to keep most new mechs primarily tournament legal.

Just remember "tournament legal" is a fancy way of saying you can complete a match in an hour without a small encyclopaedia.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Which is why things like Interface Cockpits and Void-Signature Systems will probably never become so.

[nova_dew]

Which is why things like Interface Cockpits and Void-Signature Systems will probably never become so.

Null sig and CLPS are not really that complicated when compared to things like Stealth armour and C3, and the Clans retained it, hmmm Mimir/Watch Nova with custom Dashers retrofitted with Null Sig and CLPS and Kobold IIC's

[BrianDavion]

Null sig and CLPS are not really that complicated when compared to things like Stealth armour and C3, and the Clans retained it, hmmm Mimir/Watch Nova with custom Dashers retrofitted with Null Sig and CLPS and Kobold IIC's

The clans outright abandoned Null sig. I think Null Sig is proably lostech to the clans at this time. Both the wolves (the Alpha Wolf and the Wulfen) and the Bears (the Koioto) produce mechs with stealth armor, the clans produce NOTHING with null sig. If they knew how to they proably would have used it over stealth armor.

One thing to remember is that there's no codified rules for cluster etc. the clans could quite literally double the size of your average cluster and it'd have minimal impact

[Kerfuffin(925)]

The clans outright abandoned Null sig. I think Null Sig is proably lostech to the clans at this time. Both the wolves (the Alpha Wolf and the Wulfen) and the Bears (the Koioto) produce mechs with stealth armor, the clans produce NOTHING with null sig. If they knew how to they proably would have used it over stealth armor.

One thing to remember is that there's no codified rules for cluster etc. the clans could quite literally double the size of your average cluster and it'd have minimal impact

There is no de jure cluster, but de facto they are 4-5 trinaries.

Doubling them without adding in ‘lesser’ forces probably wouldn’t do a whole lot. Adding in maybe another trinary of mechs and then 2-3 of support elements (in addition to adding more supernovas in general) would make a cluster very dangerous and close enough in parity to a regiment that it’s no longer laughable that clusters can compete.

[tassa_kay]

Doubling them without adding in ‘lesser’ forces probably wouldn’t do a whole lot. Adding in maybe another trinary of mechs and then 2-3 of support elements (in addition to adding more supernovas in general) would make a cluster very dangerous and close enough in parity to a regiment that it’s no longer laughable that clusters can compete.

The Falcons did something like this with the Turkina Keshik in the DA novel "Flight of the Falcon", by padding it with extra Trinaries, so there's certainly precedent for it in the era.

[Jellico]

The clans outright abandoned Null sig. I think Null Sig is proably lostech to the clans at this time. Both the wolves (the Alpha Wolf and the Wulfen) and the Bears (the Koioto) produce mechs with stealth armor, the clans produce NOTHING with null sig. If they knew how to they proably would have used it over stealth armor.

One thing to remember is that there's no codified rules for cluster etc. the clans could quite literally double the size of your average cluster and it'd have minimal impact

For better or worse Null Sig and Chameleon are on a different level to Stealth. Probably because there is only a crit hit, no mass. Everyone would put it on everything. Like TSM abuse. Arguably that is the reason we see Stealth used on Clan Mechs instead.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Null sig and CLPS are not really that complicated when compared to things like Stealth armour

From a tournament perspective, all inflict the same modifiers, just different heat.  They’re so alike that it might make sense to keep CLPS and Null-Sig out of core rules to avoid confusion, but not necessarily space.

They diverge when different unit types, certain advanced rules, and construction come into play.  That’s where the word count ramps up.

and C3

Yeah, Interface Cockpits are very simple compared to C3.  For tournament play, it’s just a couple modifiers, not paragraphs of text.

Interface Cockpits do get more complex when PSAs and construction are involved.  That involves paragraphs of text.

hmmm Mimir/Watch Nova with custom Dashers retrofitted with Null Sig and CLPS and Kobold IIC's

The main advantage of CLPS, Null-Sig, and Void-Sig over Stealth Armor is that you can layer them over different armors, like Ferro-Lam, Ballistic-Reinforced, or Hardened.  The design becomes hard to hit and hard to penetrate.  With Stealth Armor, you’re stuck with Stealth Armor, which has no advantages over standard armor besides the to-hit modifiers at range.  So I’d be tempted to change out the armor on those Fire Moths, too.

The clans outright abandoned Null sig.

No, the Scientist Caste retained Null-Sig and CLPS because both showed up in the Cephalus during the Jihad.  Even if they were lost to the Clans, the Wolves could recover them from old SLDF, ComStar, or Blakist stores on Terra if a plot or design so required.  The Republic was using Void-Sig, so the ilClan could even inherit that.

[nova_dew]

From a tournament perspective, all inflict the same modifiers, just different heat.  They’re so alike that it might make sense to keep CLPS and Null-Sig out of core rules to avoid confusion, but not necessarily space.

They diverge when different unit types, certain advanced rules, and construction come into play.  That’s where the word count ramps up.

The main advantage of CLPS, Null-Sig, and Void-Sig over Stealth Armor is that you can layer them over different armors, like Ferro-Lam, Ballistic-Reinforced, or Hardened.  The design becomes hard to hit and hard to penetrate.  With Stealth Armor, you’re stuck with Stealth Armor, which has no advantages over standard armor besides the to-hit modifiers at range.  So I’d be tempted to change out the armor on those Fire Moths, too.

No, the Scientist Caste retained Null-Sig and CLPS because both showed up in the Cephalus during the Jihad.  Even if they were lost to the Clans, the Wolves could recover them from old SLDF, ComStar, or Blakist stores on Terra if a plot or design so required.  The Republic was using Void-Sig, so the ilClan could even inherit that.

The rules for Null-Sig and CLPS including construction are about the same size as Stealth, if not shorter, unless there's rules that appear outside the book they're in, though Null-Sig doesn't have rules for inclusion on Omnis but CLPS does.

I built up a Fire Moth with T with Null-Sig, CLPS, and Ferro-Lam, it loses armour pips, but the added to-hit modifiers and resilience from Ferro-Lam I think might make up for it

It's a shame that no-ones brought back iATM's  :'(

[Natasha Kerensky]

I built up a Fire Moth with T with Null-Sig, CLPS, and Ferro-Lam, it loses armour pips, but the added to-hit modifiers and resilience from Ferro-Lam I think might make up for it

XL Gyro if you have the crits will free up a ton for more armor.  (Interface Cockpit will also free up a ton and crits.)

It's a shame that no-ones brought back iATM's  :'(

I liked the Society’s indirect EM and thermal attacks.  Whether iATMs or something else, it would be nice to have more options in those areas.

[truetanker]

The Homies haven't sent anyone yet coreward, so there is that hope.

TT

[Jellico]

I liked the Society’s indirect EM and thermal attacks.  Whether iATMs or something else, it would be nice to have more options in those areas.

ATMs have needed more ammo types for a long time. Especially compared to MMLs. Even something that allows indirect fire would be nice.

[nova_dew]

The Homies haven't sent anyone yet coreward, so there is that hope.

TT

Well there's the Scorpions, they could have left with some of iATM's as salvage, the Horses could find information on them on former Falcon worlds since the Society had agents in the Flacons, Jinyi's Falcons could have access to them and also the Mercantile League, I don't know it the Horses had any Society members in their Scientist Caste or Fox's or Ravens, but there's ways and means

[Metallgewitter]

Well there's the Scorpions, they could have left with some of iATM's as salvage, the Horses could find information on them on former Falcon worlds since the Society had agents in the Flacons, Jinyi's Falcons could have access to them and also the Mercantile League, I don't know it the Horses had any Society members in their Scientist Caste or Fox's or Ravens, but there's ways and means

Considering how the Falcons treated their scientist caste during the Jihad (Kill them all) I doubt there is any knowledge left in the Falcon OZ. Plus I would bet that those rebellious scientists destroyed crucial data just to spite the warriors. The Scorpions might be the only Clan outside of the Homeworlds that have any knowledge to even build IATM. The Horses have the base to build super heavy Protos I think though isn't that weapon system now considered obsolete?

[nova_dew]

Considering how the Falcons treated their scientist caste during the Jihad (Kill them all) I doubt there is any knowledge left in the Falcon OZ. Plus I would bet that those rebellious scientists destroyed crucial data just to spite the warriors. The Scorpions might be the only Clan outside of the Homeworlds that have any knowledge to even build IATM. The Horses have the base to build super heavy Protos I think though isn't that weapon system now considered obsolete?

They still have the Svartalfa on the MUL for the ilClan era, they did lose the Sprite though, this doesn't mean the Svartalfa is still in production just that there's enough of them to be on the MUL.
Just because the Falcon Society Scientists deleted files, if they did, doesn't mean they deleted deleted them if TPTB want them back, they could pull a Helm Memory Core and do a "and the Society had a secret back up and X found it" in order to bring back anything from the Society if they wanted to and it would be a way to bring their Mechs back too, since the IS Clans (other than the Falcons) didn't really have the troubles with them, with new variants that are more fitting to the current story line or do a Scorpion trick of same externals, just a different name and internals.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

ATMs have needed more ammo types for a long time. Especially compared to MMLs. Even something that allows indirect fire would be nice.

I like the idea of more ammo types but choosing ammo and/or finding extra tons for an alternate ammo in most designs would be rough. Especially without the streak portion of iATMs.

IF as an ammo or launcher in between regular and iATMs would be nice tho. Probably more useful than ER, unless they have significantly worse ranges.

[BrianDavion]

ATMs have needed more ammo types for a long time. Especially compared to MMLs. Even something that allows indirect fire would be nice.

I kinda like that MMLs have taken the idea behind ATMs and actually done it "Arguably better" by simply using SRM and LRM munitions rather then new types of missiles.

I suppose the next step of weapons evolution as the tech trees draw together would be for the ATM and MML to be replaced by a "clan MML"

[Jellico]

The Clans suffer from a plethora of direct fire weapons. What is the functional difference between an Artemised LRM, a HAG, and RAC?

Access alternative ammo like TAG, or Inferno for ATMs would allow some differentiation.

By the same token I feel downgraded versions of iNARC ammo should be available to NARC launchers to make them more interesting.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Clans suffer from a plethora of direct fire weapons. What is the functional difference between an Artemised LRM, a HAG, and RAC?

Vulnerability to ECM and AMS, mostly.

Access alternative ammo like TAG, or Inferno for ATMs would allow some differentiation.

By the same token I feel downgraded versions of iNARC ammo should be available to NARC launchers to make them more interesting.

I definitely support this.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

I kinda like that MMLs have taken the idea behind ATMs and actually done it "Arguably better" by simply using SRM and LRM munitions rather then new types of missiles.

I suppose the next step of weapons evolution as the tech trees draw together would be for the ATM and MML to be replaced by a "clan MML"

Please no. I love the ATM (haven’t really played with iATM’s). But other than the odd size launchers that are neither SRM, MRM, or LRM sizes they work really well IMO. Sure Inferno or TAG ammo (or thunder!) would be nice.

MML ‘s on the other hand have ALL sorts of weird numbers where their ammo is and is a bit confusing to look at. Plus there seems to be no benefit over the standard launchers short of having backup weapons unlike ATM’s which give the built in ART-IV.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

MMLs main strength is that you can stick one on a mech and make use of practically any type of ammo you happen to have lying around.

But this doesn't have much to do with the Dominion.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

MMLs main strength is that you can stick one on a mech and make use of practically any type of ammo you happen to have lying around.

But this doesn't have much to do with the Dominion.

To slightly tie it in, our last offensive contribution was the small pulse laser. Some of it might be due to not being involved in any story.

And hardened, reactive and re-structure. I’m still hoping for Ballistic Reinforced, much more useful in most cases.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Dominion is definitely well-positioned to have access to Ballistic-Reinforced Armor samples for reverse engineering.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

I do too, but also it’s one of the only unique things the IS has anymore; alongside re-lasers, BA artillery (which we need), silver bullet gauss, VSPL, and the plasma rifle.

[BrianDavion]

Personally I'd be happy if Ballastic reinforced armor died in a hole somewhere. there are, 3 classes of weapons in this game. BRA basicly nerfs two of them, and the two that are the heaviest.

And unlike reflective armor there's nothing out there like say, RE Lasers that can do away with it, so really.. it simply dischourages anything other then laser builds for mechs.

barring that, some sort of special AC and missile rounds that can ignore ballastic reinforced armor would be nice

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Barring an official rule that says they don't, I treat Ballistic Reinforced Armor as if it were Hardened for purposes of interactions with special autocannon and missile ammo.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Barring an official rule that says they don't, I treat Ballistic Reinforced Armor as if it were Hardened for purposes of interactions with special autocannon and missile ammo.

That seems backwards, it’s normal unless rule otherwise said.

Half of the idea is hardened the other half is reactive, one resists crits the other blows off when crit. They’d cancel out