Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread IV - Read the First Post

[GreekFire]

Yeah, absolutely. We wouldn't have given them live factions without them being reviewed beforehand. When you see factions on the MUL, it's because it's already been discussed internally and is basically good to go.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Ok cool. Thanks

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Ope back to regularly scheduled stuff

Deimos H
Under era it’s Unknown. Should be early republic to match with intro date

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

BattleMaster BLR-1Gc is listed as Standard rules level.  It should be Advanced due to the Command Console.

[Sartris]

This was also true of the BLR-1Gbc. Both have been fixed.

[CapellanYouxia]

There definitely needs to be a blurb somewhere on the site about faction availability not being iron-clad, even outside the concept of salvage and minor inventory irregularities. Capellan Death Commandos being allowed any Inner Sphere mech and Tau Ceti Rangers being allowed Comstar mechs as per their own rules in FM:CC for example. I wouldn't expect you know, every possible units' lists, but just something saying that other sources my override the basic availability lists as they are presented here.

[Sartris]

Players are welcome to use whatever modifications to availability, published or otherwise, that they wish. The MUL has never been intended as a compilation of optional rules.

[nckestrel]

There definitely needs to be a blurb somewhere on the site about faction availability not being iron-clad, even outside the concept of salvage and minor inventory irregularities. Capellan Death Commandos being allowed any Inner Sphere mech and Tau Ceti Rangers being allowed Comstar mechs as per their own rules in FM:CC for example. I wouldn't expect you know, every possible units' lists, but just something saying that other sources my override the basic availability lists as they are presented here.

How players use the MUL is up to them.  If they want to use it as a guide and freely ignore it, they can.  If they want to mix with other sources, they can.  If they want to restrict to MUL only, they can.  I'm not going to put such a blurb because I'm not telling players they have to use every sourcebook, any more than I'm going to tell players they must use the MUL.  If your group, event, etc says use the MUL, the MUL turning around and saying "every sourcebook can overrule this" would defeat the point.

If you want that rule, and it's your group, game, or even, then you can put whatever restrictions, or no restrictions.  If your group, game or event says "MUL only", no, we're not going to make a "rule" saying players can ignore it by referencing whatever source they want to reference.  There are many different ways to play BattleTech (or not play, whether just reading and/or writing) and that will push the MUL to being used different ways for different purposes.

[Karasu]

Record Sheets 3150 has sheets for the Cavalier II armed with Flamer, Medium Recoilless Rifle, Support PPC and SRM 1.  The MUL only has entries for Medium Recoilless Rifle, Support PPC and SRM.  Should there be a Flamer option in the MUL?

IS Standard Baka has an introductory date of 3086 and an introductory era of Dark Age (3131 - 3150).  One of these is wrong.

[CapellanYouxia]

How players use the MUL is up to them.  If they want to use it as a guide and freely ignore it, they can.  If they want to mix with other sources, they can.  If they want to restrict to MUL only, they can.

That. That is literally all I'm asking for. Right now far too many are taking the MUL as some kind of absolute law. At least in my findings.

edit: more to the point, there is no guidance on what the purpose of the MUL really is on the actual site. No reference to the possibly of other sources of RATs, nothing. So someone that doesn't know how BT works will get the wrong impression if all they got was the AS Box set or even the AS:CE. According to AS:CE it implies that the MUL has no wiggle room and previous sources aren't mentioned (therefore don't exist as far as any new people would know).
I'm just trying to avoid table arguments and make people's lives more informed.

[Empyrus]

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/9466/viper-vp-1

Probably should be listed as experimental, because that's what Blazers are at during the Succession Wars

[Sartris]

this requires record sheet errata. please post in the RG thread.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Shouldn't the Annihilator ANH-5W be marked as a Featured unit for Recognition Guide 24?

[Sartris]

yes

[Com Guard Precentor]

With the Mercenaries Kickstarting bringing us new models for the IS Standard Battle Armor, I have a question about Comstar's usage of these units.

Looking at the MUL I can see that Comstar uses 4 person squad sizes in the Clan Invasion era, but then only uses the 6 person squad sizes afterward.

As a Comstar/Wobbie player (shocker, I know), I thought all Comstar/WOB units used 6 as the base of their lvl 2s. Why was this change made after the Clan Invasion era and would I be disallowed from using the 6 person squads in tourneys set in this era?

Or is this just an oddity with the MUL or canon? Or both?

May Blakes blessings be upon you

[havoc111]

How do I submit mechs to be included in the MUL? I find it odd that the [edited out non-canon product] is not in the MUL. The consequence is that many games require a MUL entry and all the [non-canon] mechs, VTOL, and vehicles are excluded.

[nckestrel]

The MUL is for canon units only. We do not add fan made units, and that product is not an official product.

[Daryk]

The MUL lists the BV for a Jump Platoon (Rifle, Ballistic) as 79, but I get 89 using the TM page 309 formula:

DBR: This will be identical to the example's 37.5 (the example is a Jump Platoon (6 Blazer Rifles/1 Heavy Support Laser per squad)):
21 troopers x 1.5 = 31.5
+2 TMM gives 1.2 Defensive Factor for 31.5 x 1.2 = 37.8 (we don't round until the last step, so we keep the fraction as is)

OBR: This will be different from the example, since everyone has an Automatic Rifle instead of 18 Blazers and 3 Heavy Support Lasers.
Individual Weapons (21): 21 x 1.59 for an Auto-Rifle = 33.39
There are no Support Weapons, so we skip that step.
Anti-Mech attack value equals Individual Weapons plus Support Weapons (0), so 33.39 again.
Total WBR: 33.39 + 33.39 = 66.78
OBR = WBR x Speed Factor = 66.78 x 0.77 = 51.4206

Total BV = DBR + OBR = 37.8 + 51.4206 = 89.2206, which rounds to 89 for a 4/5 platoon.  This is 10 more than the 79 listed BV.  Perhaps it was a typo?

[Sartris]

conventional infantry BV has been on our to-do list for a bit. we are aware at least some of the numbers are wonky.

[Daryk]

Rog, thanks... it's currently being used to bolster the argument that infantry squads weigh the same as their parent platoons (no, I don't agree with that).  Rifle Mech has a rules question that could settle the issue... fingers crossed!

[Gribbly]

The Heavy Hover APC, Heavy Wheeled APC and MG/SRM/LRM variants of the Heavy Tracked APC are all on the IS General, Periphery General and Star League General lists during the SL era.

The base version of the Heavy Tracked APC is only on the RWR-TC and Star League General lists during the SL era.

Should the 'standard' base variant Heavy Tracked APC be available to IS and Periphery General during the Star League era too?


Edit: Possibly a similar issue with the Goblin Medium Tank vs the Goblin LRM & SRM variants in the SL era.

[Gribbly]

Searching on the MUL for mixed tech battlemechs with 'early succession wars' production era produces 21 results. Searching for mixed tech mechs with early SW availability era gives 26 results. The additional units are 'C' variants from the Rec Guides, listed as available to HW Clans in the mid 2820's, but the MUL era icon shows 'Clan Invasion'.




Should the production era for the Rifleman C, Archer C, Warhammer C, Marauder C and Shadow Hawk C be changed to Early SW?

[Sartris]

The Heavy Hover APC, Heavy Wheeled APC and MG/SRM/LRM variants of the Heavy Tracked APC are all on the IS General, Periphery General and Star League General lists during the SL era.

The base version of the Heavy Tracked APC is only on the RWR-TC and Star League General lists during the SL era.

Should the 'standard' base variant Heavy Tracked APC be available to IS and Periphery General during the Star League era too?


Edit: Possibly a similar issue with the Goblin Medium Tank vs the Goblin LRM & SRM variants in the SL era.

APC is an oversight. Looking into the Goblin

Searching on the MUL for mixed tech battlemechs with 'early succession wars' production era produces 21 results. Searching for mixed tech mechs with early SW availability era gives 26 results. The additional units are 'C' variants from the Rec Guides, listed as available to HW Clans in the mid 2820's, but the MUL era icon shows 'Clan Invasion'.

Should the production era for the Rifleman C, Archer C, Warhammer C, Marauder C and Shadow Hawk C be changed to Early SW?

artifact of the rec guides moving the intro dates back. fixed

[jasonf]

Here are some more errata, mostly DA/ilClan stuff...

Definite errata:
1. Thrush TR-9 is in RS: 3150 but not on MUL yet
2. Jinggau 9CCr: delete Early-Rep availability [Intro = 3114]
3. Fire Falcon G: delete Early-Rep availability [Intro = 3113]
    Fire Falcon R: delete Late-Rep availability [Intro = 3145]
    Fire Falcon F: update Late-Rep availability to align with other configs (add Sea Fox, Wolves, Ras.Dom.)
    Fire Falcon Prime: update Dark Age availability to align with other configs(add Sea Fox, Wolves, Ras.Dom.)
4. Ryoken J and Ryoken K: add Kurita to Late-Rep availability (to align with other configs)
    Ryoken I: add Kurita to Early-Rep and Late-Rep availability (to align with other configs)
5. Mad Cat W: add Ravens to Late-Rep availability (to align with other configs)
6. Arctic Wolf Prime and Arctic Wolf B: add Ras.Dom to Dark Age availability (to align with other configs)

7. Scourge WD1: delete RotS availability in DA era (redundant with IS General)
8. Javelin 10F: delete Taurian availability in Early-Rep era (redundant with Periph-General)
9. Rifleman IIC 8: delete Jade Falcon, Wolf availability in DA era (redundant with IS Clan General)
10. Crusader 5M: delete RotS in Late-Rep era (given it was removed in prior & subsequent eras)
11. Zhen Niao: delete Early-Rep availability [Intro = 3101]
12. Von Luckner 85N: delete Early-Rep availability [Intro = 3135]
13. Behemoth II (standard) and (support): delete Early-Rep availability [Intro = 3102]

Potential errata:
14. Is it intended that the Galleon 106 has an intro date < the Galleon 105 intro date?
15. Should Mercs have Hatchetman 8S availability? (since its RS is in the Hansen's RRs Force Pack)
16. Ryoken II 3: are Ravens missing from Dark Age availability? (available to them in Late-Rep and ilClan eras)

[pokefan548]

Regarding the Dictator, TRO: 3075 states:

Three Succession Wars took their toll on the Dictator, and most of the survivors are in a very poor state of repair.

This implies that between the Early Succession Wars and the Jihad, there were active (if only barely) Dictators, and the design never truly went extinct. The MUL lists them as extinct until Canopus activates their own lines and/or refurbishment program during the Jihad.

[Gribbly]

Hoplite HOP-4A rules level 'Unknown' should be 'Introductory'.

Edit: it's the same as the 4C.

[Sartris]

Here are some more errata, mostly DA/ilClan stuff...

Definite errata:
1. Thrush TR-9 is in RS: 3150 but not on MUL yet

appears to have appeared now.

2. Jinggau 9CCr: delete Early-Rep availability [Intro = 3114]
3. Fire Falcon G: delete Early-Rep availability [Intro = 3113]
    Fire Falcon R: delete Late-Rep availability [Intro = 3145]
    Fire Falcon F: update Late-Rep availability to align with other configs (add Sea Fox, Wolves, Ras.Dom.)
    Fire Falcon Prime: update Dark Age availability to align with other configs(add Sea Fox, Wolves, Ras.Dom.)
4. Ryoken J and Ryoken K: add Kurita to Late-Rep availability (to align with other configs)
    Ryoken I: add Kurita to Early-Rep and Late-Rep availability (to align with other configs)
5. Mad Cat W: add Ravens to Late-Rep availability (to align with other configs)
6. Arctic Wolf Prime and Arctic Wolf B: add Ras.Dom to Dark Age availability (to align with other configs)

7. Scourge WD1: delete RotS availability in DA era (redundant with IS General)
8. Javelin 10F: delete Taurian availability in Early-Rep era (redundant with Periph-General)
9. Rifleman IIC 8: delete Jade Falcon, Wolf availability in DA era (redundant with IS Clan General)
10. Crusader 5M: delete RotS in Late-Rep era (given it was removed in prior & subsequent eras)
11. Zhen Niao: delete Early-Rep availability [Intro = 3101]
12. Von Luckner 85N: delete Early-Rep availability [Intro = 3135]
13. Behemoth II (standard) and (support): delete Early-Rep availability [Intro = 3102]

fixed, thanks.

Potential errata:
14. Is it intended that the Galleon 106 has an intro date < the Galleon 105 intro date?

yes

15. Should Mercs have Hatchetman 8S availability? (since its RS is in the Hansen's RRs Force Pack)

research required

16. Ryoken II 3: are Ravens missing from Dark Age availability? (available to them in Late-Rep and ilClan eras)

fixed. appears i entered it twice in the late republic

[nckestrel]

Hoplite HOP-4A rules level 'Unknown' should be 'Introductory'.

Edit: it's the same as the 4C.

it has no record sheet, it only has a very short description.  That descritpion gives it a different targeting system and notes a different effect for it.  We have no rules for it. No other unit has that older targeting system.
So we don't know if/when it's ever described with rules what rules level it would have.  Therefore we left it as unknown.
It you want to use a 4C record sheet for it, you're welcome to do so. 

[Gribbly]

APC is an oversight. Looking into the Goblin

Same issue with the 'Armored Personnel Carrier (Hover)'.


The 'Sabaku Kaze Heavy Scout Hover Tank' also has RWR and SL General availability in the SL era, but no access for the Draconis Combine. The factory was on a DC world and it's available to DC until 2883.

Similarly the 'Skulker Wheeled Scout Tank' is based on a generic APC chassis and built in the DC with later era IS general availability, but limited to SL General and RWR in the SL era.

[MarauderD]

Penetrator PTR-8D (rec guide vol 27)

Has Laser AMS, should probably have ENE special ability.