Ideas are bulletproof: The Republic of the Sphere Megathread

[Retry]

Ok, I see where you've come up with that count.

I'm not sure I agree that eliminating all other training except for BattleMech usage is such a hot idea, but the Republic could have done it. I still think 3 year is a more reasonable length of time seeing how there's more to training besides BattleMech piloting and gunnery, but that's just a personal call.

3 years is preferable in peace time, but when the enemy is at the gates you probably want your Mechwarriors to graduate a few years before your nation gets annexed.

[Cannonshop]

3 years is preferable in peace time, but when the enemy is at the gates you probably want your Mechwarriors to graduate a few years before your nation gets annexed.

that DOES tend to help...and still, we have the fundamental problem; the RoTS had the best training establishment in the Inner Sphere, with the best technology of the contributing factions and states, literal years to prepare behind the fortress wall, and got stomped like 3049 militas by a Clan unit.

right down to 3049 levels of failure and numerical mismatch.

something major had to go wrong for this to be credible.

[Geg]

The brain damage angle was dropped because it reads really, really badly.

It's still in FM3145 pg211.   Unless there is a statement from TPTB s sayings it's no longer valid, or they update the PDF, it's canon.   And it clearly states that Stone is unable to have an intense conversation with someone for more that 5-7 minuets before he storms away in anger.

The core assumption of Stones defensive plan was that the Clans would never work together so they could be defeated in detail.   That assumption was shown to be wrong in CoK between when we saw SeaFox and Wolf collaborating, and again in HotW with the Falcons and Wolves.   All the material leading up this point painted Stone as an inflexible leader, who implemented an inflexible plan, based on incorrect assumptions, and could not listen to outside council.  What went wrong, or could have gone isn't some big mystery with the information on hand.

If we are going to ignore what was written, then there really isn't much on the table to discuss besides opinions what our preferences would have been.

Also, what brutal hardships and how was stone tossing out ideals?

Turning the major population centers of Terra into defensive fortification.  Fighting well past the point where he knew he had lost.  And ruling Terra effectively as an autocratic House Lord.

Also, RAF did not act like their will to fight was broken. They fought with an absurd zeal and well past rational losses.

The Kornfled POV chapters, show a pilot not picking up what Stone was putting down.   The Ares team likewise managed to switch sides with remarkable alacrity.  Kornfelds last text in hour of the wolf, was a stand in for the every Mechwarrior.   These coupled with Stone's Downfall moments doesn't paint a picture of zealous army.  These aren't the Falcons in No Substitute for Victory.

[Minemech]

 Stone would have known about the Battle of Luthien, one of the most important turning points of the 31st Century. It would not be obscure to an MIIO officer, or really a random dude drinking with his buds in the Davion Outback for that matter. It is true that it is not a perfect parallel, but wow.

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

As much as I'd like to rehash the Battle for Terra, what could of been or should of been, BattleTech has never been big into retcons. I think had HOTW been written to be more of a nailbiter, rather than a foregone conclusion, there wouldn't be so many gripes about it.

But now I'm focused on seeing what will happen to all the survivors of the Republic. Will the Northwind Highlanders start remembering the Republic like the ELH do the Star League? Will the RAF survivors on Talitha and Marlette form rump states? Will Jonah Levin unite the surviving Paladins?

[Church14]

It's still in FM3145 pg211.   Unless there is a statement from TPTB s sayings it's no longer valid, or they update the PDF, it's canon.   And it clearly states that Stone is unable to have an intense conversation with someone for more that 5-7 minuets before he storms away in anger.

The core assumption of Stones defensive plan was that the Clans would never work together so they could be defeated in detail.   That assumption was shown to be wrong in CoK between when we saw SeaFox and Wolf collaborating, and again in HotW with the Falcons and Wolves.   All the material leading up this point painted Stone as an inflexible leader, who implemented an inflexible plan, based on incorrect assumptions, and could not listen to outside council.  What went wrong, or could have gone isn't some big mystery with the information on hand.

If we are going to ignore what was written, then there really isn't much on the table to discuss besides opinions what our preferences would have been.

I’m not ignoring what was written, but it looks like that thread was dropped. He’s later shown to get into the same conversations that previously gave him problems and made him storm away. For lack of simple way to put it, the complete lack of symptoms in any later text have functionally changed those outbursts into a side effect of the unfreezing, not permanent damage.

Out of universe: BLP hated Stone. If he could have left the brain damage in, he would have. Stone’s final moments were of a very cold, rational, calculating man taking one last shot at Alaric. Not a brain damaged person raving in anger at his enemies.

Turning the major population centers of Terra into defensive fortification.  Fighting well past the point where he knew he had lost.  And ruling Terra effectively as an autocratic House Lord.

He turned the places Falcons and Wolves would likely hit first into defensive centers, yes.

Fighting well past the point of no return? The falcons were on the planet. Surrendering when they invade is suicide. Suicide for the RAF and for millions, if not billions. When Stone knew it was over, he made sure the army that wouldn’t slaughter everyone on Terra won.

The Kornfled POV chapters, show a pilot not picking up what Stone was putting down.   The Ares team likewise managed to switch sides with remarkable alacrity.  Kornfelds last text in hour of the wolf, was a stand in for the every Mechwarrior.   These coupled with Stone's Downfall moments doesn't paint a picture of zealous army.  These aren't the Falcons in No Substitute for Victory.

Those who switched to wolves did so literally to just stop Malvina, not because Alaric or his wolves were better. BLP admitted that his ending where the RAF gleefully joins the Wolves was shot down. We see later that some of those who joined the wolves left after the ilclan trial.

You know what losses a dedicated unit fights to in this setting before it flees or surrenders? 30% is considered heavy losses in that situation. Ilclan called out hard numbers for losses for a lot of RAF units.  Most fought into 80%+ casualty ranges. Against the falcons, to 100% fatalities. That’s a dedicated army.

There are always disillusioned soldiers. BLP likely meant for the lament pilot to be a stand in, but later texts make it more isolated than a universal experience.

But let’s follow topic creator and get back on topic.

[Church14]

As much as I'd like to rehash the Battle for Terra, what could of been or should of been, BattleTech has never been big into retcons. I think had HOTW been written to be more of a nailbiter, rather than a foregone conclusion, there wouldn't be so many gripes about it.

But now I'm focused on seeing what will happen to all the survivors of the Republic. Will the Northwind Highlanders start remembering the Republic like the ELH do the Star League? Will the RAF survivors on Talitha and Marlette form rump states? Will Jonah Levin unite the surviving Paladins?

I think if the setting is allowed to flow as it should, yes. Some remnant will form. If the devs want RotS to just die, it’ll fizzle out. I’d like a better answer, but we really need ilKEO

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I suspect that the Highlanders will do their usual thing of simply sticking by whomever gives them Northwind.

[Colt Ward]

Not a relative apples-to-apples comparison. This is a fictional war machine we're talking about. If the basic length of time to learn how to use a BattleMech is 1.5-2 years and nothing else, you're not cranking out decent soldiers. You're cranking out chain gang-esque level troops. I don't believe for a second the RAF for running that kind of program. At best they'd shave training down to 3 years so recruits could learn how to be soldiers and MechWarriors. Otherwise they're just putting the more experienced MechWarriors and units in danger.

So I stand by the 1.5-2 graduating classes from 3145 to 3151. It's not a lot of new and reasonably useful MechWarriors. Remind me, did FM: 3145 say the Mars academy was already opened or was planning on opening/expanding? I'm trying to remember if Levin had reasonable access to new MechWarrior classes before 3145.

Academy training is to teach a cadet to be a officer, it does not deal exclusively with piloting a mech- which no matter what would be simpler than a airplane.  If you need mechwarriors during wartime, you are not wasting time on a LOT of extra stuff- IF they survive and show promise they can be trained in unit on military paperwork, filling out forms, and all the other stuff that goes into the Academy curriculum.  A academy education is to take the place of a university education and make the prospective officer a more rounded individual in the supposition that make them better at their military job.  Also has to do with tradition as military academies were some of the first true education opportunities. 

OCS officers are called, and the program gets cranked up in war time, '90-day wonders' for a reason- because that is the cycle time.  Those selected for OCS are either 'mustangs' (prior enlisted) or college graduates and thus have already had (or for mustangs, passed tests IIRC) a general education which just teaches them 'military' and branch specializations.

Further, a short duration training program is backed up in canon.  How long were the troops a part of the 1st Kittery Training Battalion?

Comes down to, do you want a fighter or a officer?

Btw, this has some information about how the USAF Academy operates- as jet fighters are the most technical single person vehicles (and as stated, operation is MORE complicated than Mechs), it makes a solid comparison.  You will note that MOST practice flying does not happen until the 3rd & 4th years.
https://www.usafa.edu/military/airmanship/

[Cannonshop]

There were ways to make it work, but they would require retconning basically the middle of HotW and big chunks of ilClan. To make it work, in a sentence, about the same time Stone saw wolves would “win” and started moving troops at the falcons, Alaric offers hegira to the RAF and they leave with a significant chunk of their strength intact. Stone’s last command to them being to survive and preserve the ideals of the Republic.

But that isn't what they GAVE US.  we don't get to have that outcome, just like we don't get to have a real, two(or three) sided fight, so again, gotta keep asking this: what went wrong?  because that outcome we were given doesn't line up without a system-wide problem with the RAF military brass below Stone.

and it's got to be systematic to get the results that we got with HoTW.  Something in the training, organizational, support, administrative, something critical failed thousands of the Republics most promising young men and women.

Because they had everything they should have had to win. not 'grind down to a nub' but actually win...and they lost.

but worse than that, they lost catastrophically.  3049 militia levels of defeat against Clanners a century later when there isn't the tech disparity and you've got home field advantage doesn't square up with the Republic as presented in virtually ALL the prior material.

This isn't a demoralized, manpower deficient 3rd Reich facing the Soviet hordes in 1945 (though that's what BLP claims to have used for inspiration), this isn't a 3rd world army like Iraq up against the cream of cold-war era NATO in 1991.

we know the externality was that the Republic had to lose-and lose thoroughly for plot reasons, but what explanation can cover this in-universe besides the intervention of a cruel and vindictive god?

[Church14]

But that isn't what they GAVE US.  we don't get to have that outcome, just like we don't get to have a real, two(or three) sided fight, so again, gotta keep asking this: what went wrong?  because that outcome we were given doesn't line up without a system-wide problem with the RAF military brass below Stone.

and it's got to be systematic to get the results that we got with HoTW.  Something in the training, organizational, support, administrative, something critical failed thousands of the Republics most promising young men and women.

Because they had everything they should have had to win. not 'grind down to a nub' but actually win...and they lost.

but worse than that, they lost catastrophically.  3049 militia levels of defeat against Clanners a century later when there isn't the tech disparity and you've got home field advantage doesn't square up with the Republic as presented in virtually ALL the prior material.

This isn't a demoralized, manpower deficient 3rd Reich facing the Soviet hordes in 1945 (though that's what BLP claims to have used for inspiration), this isn't a 3rd world army like Iraq up against the cream of cold-war era NATO in 1991.

we know the externality was that the Republic had to lose-and lose thoroughly for plot reasons, but what explanation can cover this in-universe besides the intervention of a cruel and vindictive god?

Nothing. There’s not in universe explanation using pre existing logic to explain wolf victory in the manner it was done and with the remaining strength they have.

HotW has scenes with wolves attacking into 10X their strength and completely and totally demolishing those units. It’s beyond any reconciliation logically.


Because in order for the Republic to be brain dead enough to lose those fights, the rest of the battletech universe has to get dumber because these units could soundly win other fights. We’d have to accept that per HotW, the Republic just doesn’t have a superheavy doctrine - which the existence of APDS battle armor means they do - after having those units for over a decade. We’d have to reduce the entire faction to embarrassing garbage, then lower all the factions the RotS had been beating below that, then keep dealing further sympathetic damage to the setting.

Simply put, clan wolf isn’t worth trashing the setting to try and reconcile HotW. No faction is. So I just write it off as out of universe driven, impossible contrived garbage and move on.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

At some point, it just boils down to a writer who couldn't convey a convincing defeat of a clever and well-equipped foe.

[Colt Ward]

HotW has scenes with wolves attacking into 10X their strength and completely and totally demolishing those units. It’s beyond any reconciliation logically.

When?  The ONLY time it happened in Hour was when the 2nd Assault Cluster under Kalidessa Kerensky with a Tau cluster in support kept up skirmishes for a few days pretending to be their whole galaxies- and they were pretty wore down after that incident.  Other than that it was some mech battalions or a regiment with conventional support against two or more galaxies- the advantage of being the attacker with initiative is you get to decide when and often where the fight occurs so you can create local superiority.

[Metallgewitter]

If you want an examle of bad writing just count how often Malvina survives hits to her cockpit. That is some major plot armor right there. Even Phelan and Victor had this element only used once.

But to Stone ruling without much oversight. This system was already in place when Levin dissolved the senate (which by the way was enshrined in the Republic's laws) And Levin had no choice in that matter as the Senate would never had agreed to the in deep investigations into their own actions. And with fortress Republic the senate might have looked useless with a much reduced state.

And lastly a little tidbit from Mechwarrior: Legends. Adam Steiner fought a replay of the battle of tukayyid against Stone and Stone had to win to get Steiner's support. Stone took the role as the comGuards and he lost to the Steiner led Clans. Maybe this could be seen as something of a hindsight why he lost against the clans.

[Church14]

When?  The ONLY time it happened in Hour was when the 2nd Assault Cluster under Kalidessa Kerensky with a Tau cluster in support kept up skirmishes for a few days pretending to be their whole galaxies- and they were pretty wore down after that incident.  Other than that it was some mech battalions or a regiment with conventional support against two or more galaxies- the advantage of being the attacker with initiative is you get to decide when and often where the fight occurs so you can create local superiority.

Double checked my numbers. I had one unit size off. The Tactical Response Cluster was only attacking five times its strength when it charged Four Horsemen. And the description of how they managed that requires someone to believe that the RAF had no superheavy doctrine, no combined arms doctrine, and no training against Wolves ability to just move faster. Then after TRC defeat five times it’s strength, 3 weeks later it had the strength to help tip Stuttgart in Wolves’ favor.

Blue Heron bothers me less. I find the idea that they could repair and repaint Kalidessa’s mechs fast enough to make it work kind of a stretch, but not one that breaks any sort of in universe rules. And by the time it was done, Wolves supposedly lost a galaxy. Though that galaxy was still fighting in the ilClan trial with strength… so “neutralized”

[Minemech]

And lastly a little tidbit from Mechwarrior: Legends. Adam Steiner fought a replay of the battle of tukayyid against Stone and Stone had to win to get Steiner's support. Stone took the role as the comGuards and he lost to the Steiner led Clans. Maybe this could be seen as something of a hindsight why he lost against the clans.

In itself that is difficult to believe because the Clans were quite... naive... in how they fought that battle. Aiden essentially was a gamechanger for the Falcons because he realized that terrain might matter. The Wolves realized that you need to protect your supplies, and it is better to have a larger force than a smaller one. The Bears did okay because they were used to irregular warfare and planned around that but ran out of time. Otherwise, the Jags did plenty of ill-advised actions even when ordered to leave by the ilKhan, and the other Clans were easy prey. This was a far easier campaign than anything that took place in the Jihad.

 Oh and the Scorpions did not stand a chance.

[Colt Ward]

Double checked my numbers. I had one unit size off. The Tactical Response Cluster was only attacking five times its strength when it charged Four Horsemen. And the description of how they managed that requires someone to believe that the RAF had no superheavy doctrine, no combined arms doctrine, and no training against Wolves ability to just move faster. Then after TRC defeat five times it’s strength, 3 weeks later it had the strength to help tip Stuttgart in Wolves’ favor.

Blue Heron bothers me less. I find the idea that they could repair and repaint Kalidessa’s mechs fast enough to make it work kind of a stretch, but not one that breaks any sort of in universe rules. And by the time it was done, Wolves supposedly lost a galaxy. Though that galaxy was still fighting in the ilClan trial with strength… so “neutralized”

The TRC was misnamed as the book says, it was really a light specialist elite galaxy (8 trinaries, some supernovas?) and was supported by the 2nd Assault Cluster- BLP's new POV characters.  Their foe had also already clashed with two solahma that caused some damage and had another cluster air-mobile behind them to prevent survivors retreating.  It was also the first time the Wolves rolled out a specific anti-superheavy tactic which was later countered by keeping more light screening forces around superheavies to protect their flanks.  Superheavies are not really some sort of offensive wunder weapon, at least not against the Clans, since they hobble the strategic speed- Four Horseman would have been much better off to have left the superheavies behind in redoubts and sped to Bangalore.  The Clans already have a strategic ground speed advantage and with the ability to take forces air mobile . . . I guess a point could be made they would never have been able to outspeed a Wolf response, so pack in all the extra firepower possible.

You also are ignoring that the Wolves had brought along, as well as salvaging, enough extra mechs that if one got trashed enough the warrior was given a temporary replacement while their own mech was rebuilt- this happened with Alaric when he used the Stormwolf to survive the DS crash in Alaska, Garner Kerensky used a Blood Reaper instead of his normal mech on the Volga IIRC, Kalidessa Kerensky used a Tundra Wolf 4 Poland instead of her Dire Wolf since it was being rebuilt after fighting the Four Horseman campaign, and more.

[Geg]

He turned the places Falcons and Wolves would likely hit first into defensive centers, yes.

Block by block city fighting isn't supposed to happen.  Article V of the Ares Conventions banned combat in cities, and while they conventions are no longer in force, they are still how combat is supposed to go down., and mech combat in cities is still taboo well into the 31st century with at least a lingering appeal to civility into the 32.   Putting major defensive lines inside major population centers was always going to be a humanitarian tragedy.

I am going to step out of the rest of this thread of conversation.   If we are actively disregarding parts of the setting, then there is nothing to do but talk past each other.

[Church14]

Block by block city fighting isn't supposed to happen.  Article V of the Ares Conventions banned combat in cities, and while they conventions are no longer in force, they are still how combat is supposed to go down., and mech combat in cities is still taboo well into the 31st century with at least a lingering appeal to civility into the 32.   Putting major defensive lines inside major population centers was always going to be a humanitarian tragedy.

I am going to step out of the rest of this thread of conversation.   If we are actively disregarding parts of the setting, then there is nothing to do but talk past each other.

You’re correct. Ares conventions were formally renounced by start of 1SW. That, and as Colt Ward has pointed out a few times: nobody fighting on Terra at the time were ever signatories. For 400 years, Ares conventions have been lofty hopes that some parties in the setting obey when convenient.

Clans have a history of dropping directly on priority targets, engaging in headhunter attacks, and seeking a quick decisive victory across the planet at strategically critical targets. Weapons, mechs, armor, ammo aren’t built in the middle of nowhere. They’re built near cities where the plants can get the technical expertise and labor they need. Stone could have build fifty redoubts in various uninhabited regions, and watched the wolves secure every supply of food, guns, ammo, mechs, etc. without taking a loss. Then the redoubts could slowly be sieged, starved, and defeated by every form of attrition.

But let’s pretend that worked, the wolves are defeated because they rush headfirst at all the redoubts instead of engaging in any strategy because Alaric wants Terra now. Cool. What happens when the falcons arrive with their history of massacring civilians under Malvina? Millions dead as they destroy the cities and RAF watches. Or what about when the Capellans, who don’t give a crap about honor, show up? They would absolutely take all the critical infrastructure and leave the redoubts to starve.

Stone defended the critical targets in a way that worked against traditional clan tactics: see the initial Falcon landings. Was defending street by street the way he probably wanted to do it? No. But it is a way to deny clans their preferred way of fighting and to make the fights as resource taxing as he can on invaders.

Remember that the first defense Stone tried on the planet was to make it a limited trial to spare the citizens of the planet.

[Colt Ward]

You’re correct. Ares conventions were formally renounced by start of 1SW. That, and as Colt Ward has pointed out a few times: nobody fighting on Terra at the time were ever signatories. For 400 years, Ares conventions have been lofty hopes that some parties in the setting obey when convenient.

Not my point, but ok lol.

I do agree with you, and we saw even in strictly IS vs IS wars the cities are not sacrosanct.  Leave out the Jihad and you still had some confirmed city fighting in every major conflict since the Clan Invasion, I will use that point as the brightline b/c it marks a cultural shift in the Inner Sphere.  Even the chivalrous fake Tommie Marik still had his forces drawn into city fighting during Operation Guerrero, Cappies & St Ives forces did it, FCCW had a LOT of it and on and on . . . so lip-service to 'no urban fighting' is just that, urban fighting (hello Tikonov) has been part of the setting since the beginning.

Hypocrisy, thy name is Human.

But one point . . . the 'redoubts' defenses started well outside the urban areas as described, they just fell further and further back into the cities to new defensive lines.

[Church14]

The TRC was misnamed as the book says, it was really a light specialist elite galaxy (8 trinaries, some supernovas?) and was supported by the 2nd Assault Cluster- BLP's new POV characters.  Their foe had also already clashed with two solahma that caused some damage and had another cluster air-mobile behind them to prevent survivors retreating.  It was also the first time the Wolves rolled out a specific anti-superheavy tactic which was later countered by keeping more light screening forces around superheavies to protect their flanks.  Superheavies are not really some sort of offensive wunder weapon, at least not against the Clans, since they hobble the strategic speed- Four Horseman would have been much better off to have left the superheavies behind in redoubts and sped to Bangalore.  The Clans already have a strategic ground speed advantage and with the ability to take forces air mobile . . . I guess a point could be made they would never have been able to outspeed a Wolf response, so pack in all the extra firepower possible.

I had to drop it from 10X to 5X, because i found the right number for the TRC. 5:1 strength difference is with them at 8 supernova trinaries.

Four horseman smashed the solamha clusters first, yes. The two of those together were likely weaker - even together - by a long shot than TRC on its own. Which two clusters should not inflict meaningful dent against that much of a force. IlClan said they inflicted some, but it’s vague and not really believable that the losses would be so high that it gave TRC a chance.


Okay: checked about 2nd assault… zero mention in ilClan, which I why I missed them, but it is clear in HotW. That makes the fight less lopsided, but really still leaves the fight at something like…. 3:1. Unless the solamha inflicted absolutely silly casualties… still not a believable outcome.

Yes, we’ve had real life battles with bad odds flipped because of clever commanders taking advantage of terrain, a massive element of surprise, etc. None of that was used here. Not on any level that explains such a bonkers pinching up

[Generalripphook]

If we are going to ignore what was written, then there really isn't much on the table to discuss besides opinions what our preferences would have been.

Isn't that what this thread has become? Lots of people incredulous about the ROTS defeat on Terra. Yet it happened.

I don't think they will retcon it, but maybe short stories or shrapnel magazine articles will be used to broaden our understanding of the battle on terra.

To bring it back to the OP, my longshot hope is that the RAF flee to the periphery and help the Magistracy in their war against the Capelleans

[Cannonshop]

Isn't that what this thread has become? Lots of people incredulous about the ROTS defeat on Terra. Yet it happened.

I don't think they will retcon it, but maybe short stories or shrapnel magazine articles will be used to broaden our understanding of the battle on terra.

To bring it back to the OP, my longshot hope is that the RAF flee to the periphery and help the Magistracy in their war against the Capelleans

What defining event was LEFT?  Tukayyid was credible, even down to Aidan's Magic Small Laser, because it was structured out with two forces acting in character (teh Clans, as a whole or individually, and comguards acting like an army would really act).

most of the other conflicts in the setting? same thing.  Galtor works, most of the major battles in the Civil war and Jihad? work.  The ones we have scenarios for could go either way and hing on the mix of luck and skill, not heavy-handed intervention by the writer.

If you lay out and play out the battles in HoTW, you need to cripple the living shit out of the Republic forces to get anything remotely resembling the outcome, and by that, I mean dumping everyone's stats on the Republic side to around 7/8, while pumping the Clan units to 1/2 or 0/0.

or play it single-blind wehre the Republic player has to be making hs moves blindfolded while the Wolf player knows where everything is and what moves he'll make ahead of time...

and has all the initiative rolls slotted to give him a 12 pip advantage.

but, this is the only 'defining conflict' a Republic player can actually have for their faction in terms of product support, fiction, and sourcebook material.

how so? because it invalidates or retcons every.single.one. of the Republic's previous characerizations.

They ahve to become incompetent, disorganized and demoralized in ways that the lead up doesn't allow, in order to make those outcomes happen the way they were written.

Or, everyone else (and I mean EVERYONE) has to be so utterly incompetent that sub-normal intellects in scrap gear can beat them one-handed.

There was no strategy in Stone's Strategy, and his commanders would have to have forgotten basic leadership development, training, and operations for the outcome to work as-written.

this creates a 'no point' situation.

as in, there's no point in discussing the positive traits because those were stripped off by a vindictive god.

[Geg]

Isn't that what this thread has become? Lots of people incredulous about the ROTS defeat on Terra. Yet it happened.

And it completely derails (guilty) any threads on the Republic.

Which sucks, because the Republic is a unique faction, with uniques units, and it follows a completely different trajectory than any other factions.  It was a great faction, that I am sad that is gone, but not sorry it died, because its death made it that much more interesting (for me).

[tassa_kay]

there's no point in discussing the positive traits because those were stripped off by a vindictive god.

If you feel there's no point discussing the positive traits, by all means, feel free to not to do so. But don't speak for the rest of us, please.

Besides, you know as well as anyone that discussion of hypotheticals regarding things that have long since unfolded in canon is the bread-and-butter around here.

[Minemech]

 The Augustine Alliance could absorb a few regiments, allowing for some regional equalization. It would be neat if they restored a Knight-Errant/Knight/Paladin system, albeit without an Exarch. In particular, it would be neat to see the Knights of the Inner Sphere return through it, a Free Worlds League/Republic hybrid ideological unit (Without the Thomas Marik ideals weirdness that cost the League mercenaries and the like).

[Colt Ward]

The Augustine Alliance could absorb a few regiments, allowing for some regional equalization. It would be neat if they restored a Knight-Errant/Knight/Paladin system, albeit without an Exarch. In particular, it would be neat to see the Knights of the Inner Sphere return through it, a Free Worlds League/Republic hybrid ideological unit (Without the Thomas Marik ideals weirdness that cost the League mercenaries and the like).

Well since Ariana Zou ended up on that world, I think, that could very likely happen.  I would support that, give the League another flavor . . . what is one more?

[Nodachi]

Been a while since I looked at Ilclan. How many ROTS units are still out there and do we know where they are heading?

[Geg]

The Augustine Alliance could absorb a few regiments, allowing for some regional equalization. It would be neat if they restored a Knight-Errant/Knight/Paladin system, albeit without an Exarch. In particular, it would be neat to see the Knights of the Inner Sphere return through it, a Free Worlds League/Republic hybrid ideological unit (Without the Thomas Marik ideals weirdness that cost the League mercenaries and the like).

Ooo!  That's a fun thought experiment.   

What is needed to make a faction.  Feel like a Republic Successor Faction...  or even a new Republic Splinter Faction?

[Church14]

Been a while since I looked at Ilclan. How many ROTS units are still out there and do we know where they are heading?

“A lot going mercenary” is the most all encompassing story, which is just more “and then the RotS just gave up” and I would love to see it really just be a minority.

That we know of?
NWH and XII Hastati merged into a huge NWH
Cheetahs heading to FS/DC border
Dawn Guards working for AFFS
Seychelle’s Stonehearts
The unit in EA raiding caches.
Maybe a couple other small units.


Unaccounted for:
Unit - last seen
XVI Hastati Sentinels - Zollikofen
XI Principes Guards - Fomalhaut 
XII Principes Guards - Epsilon Indi
XIII Principes Guards - Epsilon Eridani
XIV Principes Guards - Elgen
XV Principes Guards - Denebola
X Triarii Protectors - New Earth 
XI Triarii Protectors - Procyon
XII Triarii Protectors - Keid
XIII Triarii Protectors - Sirius
2nd Fides
3rd Fides
6th Fides

And probably about 2000 mechwarriors on Terra looking for a way off planet. With a heck of a lot of tankers, ASF pilots, and infantry as well