(New) Clan Smoke Jaguar: Once More With Feeling

[Church14]

Personally, I don't think one had anything to do with the other. I'm fairly certain that the Jaguars being back in print is largely (if not solely) due to BLP, because he's clearly been antsy to do it since at least as far back as the MWDA days.

It was BLP’s idea, per BLP, to bring them back as a symbolic undoing of the Second Star League. So Alaric could make the biggest accomplishment of SL2 a sham. I forget if this was the line in his blog before or after how the RotS needed to die and never come back as a capstone to a major era.




For those missing the subtext, the death of the Jags was the setting altering capstone to the most significant era of the setting.

That said. The nuJags are here and let’s see what a better writer can do with them that’s engaging and new.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

It's still weird to me that the Jags are back as a Clan.  But hey, I'm game to see where this is going.

I'm curious about a chicken and egg scenario: were they brought back because TPTB knew that MW5 was going to be Jaguar themed, so they are trying to bring them back/rehabilitate them in the sourcebooks and newer novels, or was MW5 made Jaguar themed because they just have been brought back?

Doubtful, new Jags and old Jags have the same ancestry but the whole raison d'etre of new Jags is to be better than old Jags

Lincoln Osis out, Franklin Osis back in

And new MW game is definitely about old Jags

[tassa_kay]

the whole raison d'etre of new Jags is to be better than old Jags

We don't really know that yet. Especially with Alaric in charge.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

We don't really know that yet. Especially with Alaric in charge.

Not Alaric's call to make

It's Paul Moon's

And Moon was crystal clear on that: Special forces yes, butchers no

[tassa_kay]

Paul Moon didn't join the Jaguars, so it's not his call, either. And underestimating the power of the ilKhan of the ilClan over those Clanners who flocked to his banner seems rather silly to me, especially after watching the RasDom all but tear itself apart over it.

My point is that we don't know how things are going to shake out with them, and we've seen CGL change plans time and time again, so people really should stop being so comfortable trying to predict the future as if it's already written.

[rebs]

We can't possibly stop speculating, it's what we do here.  All these Clan faction threads are filled with speculations.  Most were wrong, some are occasionally right.  Many remain to be seen.

We can tell people they are wrong and why we think so, but we can't tell them to stop, that's the moderators' jobs.

[tassa_kay]

The irony of being told "let the moderators do their job" while doing the moderators' job is palpable. But fair enough. Let's move on.

[Church14]

Not Alaric's call to make

It's Paul Moon's

And Moon was crystal clear on that: Special forces yes, butchers no

To harp even more and add to Tassa’s point:

1)Paul Moon said a new Jaguar clan was not his place. He stayed Fidelis.
2) It really is Alaric’s call. Whether they become a clan again or just stay absorbed by the wolves is basically entirely Alaric’s prerogative. If he doesn’t like what they try to be, they just die off as a culture. It’s part of why their casual “hell yeah we’ll join up” was so badly thought out.

Speaking of culture, we already trashed eighty years of their cultural evolution and all of their characterization to reach here. So we have zero idea what path Jags will take. They are functionally an entirely new culture made up in CoK/HotW that will be fleshed out in ilKEO and whatever the ilclan novel is, because the one they were would never have joined the wolves.

As much as I’d love a fifth column nuJags who do their damnedest to undercut Alaric’s wolves, if they are that at all, I’m not sure Alaric will let them be a clan.

[tassa_kay]

Honestly, Paul Moon staying behind with some of the Fidelis who didn't sign up is kind of the best of both worlds, because we can have both flavors of Jaguar.

[BrianDavion]

Personally, I don't think one had anything to do with the other. I'm fairly certain that the Jaguars being back in print is largely (if not solely) due to BLP, because he's clearly been antsy to do it since at least as far back as the MWDA days.

I have it on good authority that it was indeed entirely on BLP. That said given MW5: The clans I suppose CGL should see this as conveniant. course if the jags where still dead in the ilclan era would FPG have perhaps chosen a differant clan?

[tassa_kay]

Out of the Big Four from the Invader Clans, aren't the Jaguars t

course if the jags where still dead in the ilclan era would FPG have perhaps chosen a differant clan?

I know we have no way of knowing one way or the other, but I somehow doubt that the Jaguars' resurrection in the ilClan era even caused a blip on FPG's radar, and this is probably just a happy coincidence.

[BrianDavion]

Out of the Big Four from the Invader Clans, aren't the Jaguars t
I know we have no way of knowing one way or the other, but I somehow doubt that the Jaguars' resurrection in the ilClan era even caused a blip on FPG's radar, and this is probably just a happy coincidence.

you're proably right, FPG isn't concerned with that as it won't impact THEIR bottem line.

[tassa_kay]

you're proably right, FPG isn't concerned with that as it won't impact THEIR bottem line.

I forgot to properly edit my thought up there, LOL, but I was thinking maybe they went with the Jaguars because they're one of the Big Four but have gotten the least amount of exposure. And frankly, I think seeing a Jaguar's perspective that isn't Trent (or being written by BLP) is great; Jaguar's Leap is one of my favorite new novels published because it gave us a really good look at the mindset of their rank-and-file warriors.

[Agathos]

Catalyst must have committed to creating the nuJags no later than when they signed off on BLP's outlines for Rock of the Republic and Children of Kerensky. Those books came out in 2020... not long after the first MechWarrior 5. At the time I doubt PGI even knew how many DLC packs they would be doing, much less a standalone sequel.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

To harp even more and add to Tassa’s point:

1)Paul Moon said a new Jaguar clan was not his place. He stayed Fidelis.
2) It really is Alaric’s call. Whether they become a clan again or just stay absorbed by the wolves is basically entirely Alaric’s prerogative. If he doesn’t like what they try to be, they just die off as a culture. It’s part of why their casual “hell yeah we’ll join up” was so badly thought out.

Speaking of culture, we already trashed eighty years of their cultural evolution and all of their characterization to reach here. So we have zero idea what path Jags will take. They are functionally an entirely new culture made up in CoK/HotW that will be fleshed out in ilKEO and whatever the ilclan novel is, because the one they were would never have joined the wolves.

As much as I’d love a fifth column nuJags who do their damnedest to undercut Alaric’s wolves, if they are that at all, I’m not sure Alaric will let them be a clan.

We seem to have a misunderstanding here

I never said that they would not be following Alaric's orders, he is ilKhan, he is calling the shots and new Jaguars are SpecOps for this new Star League, what ilKhan says goes

What I'm saying is that unlike old Jaguars they would not be going around doing epically horrible things for their own ego

They didn't undergo some 40k mind wipe when they signed up for being Jaguars again, they left with Paul Moon's blessing and expectations one of which was that certain lines are not to be crossed ever again

In fact those are the same expectations that Alaric has of surviving Malvina's Falcons, to drop the whole Mongol shtick once and for all because it's unseemly

That's the difference between old and new Jags that I'm referring to (like you said yourself, a new culture)

[The Wobbly Guy]

In terms of the mechwarrior games, the other 3 main invading clans already had the spotlight: Wolf and Jade Falcon in Mechwarrior 2, Ghost Bears in Ghost Bear's Legacy. So it's only fair for the Smoke Jaguars to finally get their turn.

That it coincided with their resurrection as a clan in the current timeline may just be serendipitous.

Although I'm not really a Smoke Jaguar fan, I'm already looking forward to playing out Operation Revival from the viewpoint of the Clans, which has NOT been done yet either. It's interesting that for Mechwarrior 2 and GBL, they stuck with the current events (at the time) post-Tukayyid instead of moving just a bit into the past for the Clan Invasion. The Clan invasion was only covered in a select number of games: Crescent Hawk's Revenge and Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries, IIRC.

I hope the battles for Luthien and Tukayyid will really bring both the ferocity of the Clans and the sheer desperation of these epic conflicts into the game.

One thing the Mechwarrior franchise needs to improve is mission crafting - difficult scouting/hunt missions encouraging fast agile light/medium mechs instead of always going with heavies and assaults at the endgame, which is what I always see.

[Blkbr2020]

Speaking of culture, we already trashed eighty years of their cultural evolution and all of their characterization to reach here. So we have zero idea what path Jags will take. They are functionally an entirely new culture made up in CoK/HotW that will be fleshed out in ilKEO and whatever the ilclan novel is, because the one they were would never have joined the wolves.

Well we have all the text from Forever Faithful detailing the cultural changes that the Jags went through in order to start and keep the new colony alive. The precedent has been set for the warriors to be more blended than the old Jags.

Surrender Your Dreams covers Fidelis training and how they train in all aspects of combat before working up to mechwarriors. So combat wise I'm expecting a much heavier focus on combined arms.......or at the very least more competant second line / garrison units as all warriors train as infantry, then armor etc.

I'm not suggesting the nuJags will be a perfect Mary Sue faction.........but I do think we have almost 100 years of them living with a different culture than the Jags of old. Now how Alaric handles things will be interesting, but I don't think he is going to be too inclinded to meddle in the day to day Jag culture. If he gives orders to attack X planet and they dissobey I could see him throwing a temper tantrum. We shall see how the writers flesh everything out. 

One other question that came up earlier was on bloodlines / bloodnames and how many the nuJags would have access to. We had several bloodnamed warriors listed in Forever Faithful, so any samples from those warriors would be fair game.

The other wrinkle will be that the Jags were encouraged to breed like crazy in order to grow the population. This was mentioned in both Forever Faithful, and Surrender Your Dreams where one of the warriors mentioned some duties were more enjoyable than others. So even before the iron wombs were fired up the warriors were breeding to keep the population growing. Now I'm not sure if many of the natural born Jags/Fedelis would be able to compete for a traditional bloodname or not. At the very least I'm expecting that the high focus on growing the population introduced warrior genetics into the lower castes and vice versa over the decades.

Even if none of those natural births contribute to bloodnamed warriors I'm thinking that it will result in a closer relationship between the warriors and other members of the Fedelis/Jags society. We also have to wait and see for the breakdown of what percentage of the Fedelis population became clan or stayed Fedelis. I really wish we were getting IKEO sooner to have some more background on how the nuJags are setup / what % stayed Fedelis and also where they went.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

...
I hope the battles for Luthien and Tukayyid will really bring both the ferocity of the Clans and the sheer desperation of these epic conflicts into the game....

For a game size they say they going for I think that Battle of Luthien would be much better end point especially since they are starting from events in Homeworlds and through the Deep Periphery and Periphery before Inner Sphere and Combine come into play

It's enough to cover the Clan Smoke Jaguar, deliver political scheming, give character arcs to cast and have protagonists go out in the blaze of glory on Luthien, Halo Reach style


Tukayyid was Wolf's and ComStar's story not Smoke Jaguar's




 

[tassa_kay]

Tukayyid was Wolf's and ComStar's story not Smoke Jaguar's

That's not really true. The Wolves and ComStar were certainly the primary actors, but Tukayyid was extremely important in the Jaguars' ongoing story: they lost a third of their entire invasion force, both of their Khans (despite one coming back later) and their Loremaster. Tukayyid, more than anything else, even more than Luthien, shaped the Jaguars' narrative, as it did for pretty much every Clan that participated.

Personally, I hope they avoid Tukayyid and Luthien (especially Luthien; this battle needs to be cleaned up in canon first and foremost) and end things on something a little more manageable in scale: Wolcott.

[rebs]

Agreed - I think Jag fans and Nova Cat fans, as well as Combine fans and mercenary fans of the Dragoons and Kell Hounds, would all love to see a Historical Turning Points Luthien product. 

I'd be first to purchase it.

[rebs]

While on the subject of products, a smaller-scale product focusing on Wolcott would be cool too.

[tassa_kay]

Absodamnlutely. The Battle of Luthien is begging for a proper presentation (most especially the involved units, yiiiiiiikes), and a Turning Points would be so perfect for that.

[Sjhernan3060]

Absodamnlutely. The Battle of Luthien is begging for a proper presentation (most especially the involved units, yiiiiiiikes), and a Turning Points would be so perfect for that.

1000% I always thought this was the most “ epic” of the invasion battles

[Agathos]

Tukayyid, a Wolf story? They're like a relief pitcher who puts up a couple of no-hit innings after the starter has already gotten bombed. Nice for your personal stats, irrelevant to the outcome.

The Jaguars, in the same analogy, are that starting pitcher.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

That's not really true. The Wolves and ComStar were certainly the primary actors, but Tukayyid was extremely important in the Jaguars' ongoing story: they lost a third of their entire invasion force, both of their Khans (despite one coming back later) and their Loremaster. Tukayyid, more than anything else, even more than Luthien, shaped the Jaguars' narrative, as it did for pretty much every Clan that participated.

Personally, I hope they avoid Tukayyid and Luthien (especially Luthien; this battle needs to be cleaned up in canon first and foremost) and end things on something a little more manageable in scale: Wolcott.

Tukayyid was important for Jaguars in the same way as Operation Scorpion was important for ComStar: beginning of an end but hardly epic

And I may be minority here but it's definitely not Smoke Jaguar videogame material, videogames need to move copies and Tukayyid is a miserable end to a story on their side

Plus in post-Tex/Red40k era anything about Tukayyid that isn't centered solely around ComStar with tagline "Get *****, Clanner!!!" will cause fandom-wide meltdowns of epic proportions

Wolcott ended in negotiated give-up and simply lacks the gravitas of Luthien

Luthien however is pure gravitas

Or if they really want to show downfall of Jaguars while avoiding their silliness on Tukayyid they should just do a time skip before last several missions, play cutscene about how hard Jaguars screwed up an and have last missions take place on Huntress as protagonists get mauled by SERPENT while they ride their Threshers in hopeless last stand as disposable solahama while string orchestra plays in the background

Tukayyid, a Wolf story? They're like a relief pitcher who puts up a couple of no-hit innings after the starter has already gotten bombed. Nice for your personal stats, irrelevant to the outcome.

The Jaguars, in the same analogy, are that starting pitcher.

But Wolves did get those stats

ComStar got victory

Falcons got epic last stand

Bears got a new perspective

Even Diamond Sharks got a new origin story

Any of those would be better Tukayyid protagonist

All Jaguars got was a meme, their HQ might as well have been a circus tent while their comms played Benny Hill music throughout the whole thing



Now let's go back to the real world: What's actually going to happen in this new Clan MW videogame is that they will simply pull a good old Star Wars

There will be several missions against other Clans and pirates but once Jaguars make contact with the Inner Sphere the protagonist will defect to the other side after seeing the error of their ways and will continue fighting for truth, justice and the FedCom/Wolf way (whichever they decide to skedaddle to)

No way we will get to play the villain in a videogame that is sold for money


Just look at latest expansion for MW5: players are apparently fighting for the Kuritans but not exactly since they will actually be playing as mercenaries working somehow for Kuritans (despite the whole Kuritan "no to mercenaries" thing they had back then, correct me if I got the period wrong)

If they won't allow players to play as evil Kuritans they sure as hell won't allow them to play as Smoke Jaguars who are just as evil as Kuritans

Again, they need to sell this thing

[rebs]

Absodamnlutely. The Battle of Luthien is begging for a proper presentation (most especially the involved units, yiiiiiiikes), and a Turning Points would be so perfect for that.

Right?!?  People who can't stand the Clans or the Draconis Combine would still want this product.

[The Wobbly Guy]

Now let's go back to the real world: What's actually going to happen in this new Clan MW videogame is that they will simply pull a good old Star Wars

There will be several missions against other Clans and pirates but once Jaguars make contact with the Inner Sphere the protagonist will defect to the other side after seeing the error of their ways and will continue fighting for truth, justice and the FedCom/Wolf way (whichever they decide to skedaddle to)

No way we will get to play the villain in a videogame that is sold for money


Just look at latest expansion for MW5: players are apparently fighting for the Kuritans but not exactly since they will actually be playing as mercenaries working somehow for Kuritans (despite the whole Kuritan "no to mercenaries" thing they had back then, correct me if I got the period wrong)

If they won't allow players to play as evil Kuritans they sure as hell won't allow them to play as Smoke Jaguars who are just as evil as Kuritans

Again, they need to sell this thing

I hope not. The point was to show the perspective of the clans.  I suspect it'd be more in line with what Trent experienced - the player fighting against ever more desperate odds, against enemies both external and internal politics, for an ideal that seems further and further away, until there is nothing left but the chance for redemption with Trent and Paul Moon.

It'd take great storytelling, but that's what the developers are for!

[tassa_kay]

Tukayyid was important for Jaguars in the same way as Operation Scorpion was important for ComStar: beginning of an end but hardly epic

That's... certainly an opinion. Tukayyid is pretty universally considered to be epic.

And I may be minority here but it's definitely not Smoke Jaguar videogame material, videogames need to move copies and Tukayyid is a miserable end to a story on their side

Imagine thinking that the most famous battle the Clans as a whole have ever fought isn't videogame material. Yeah, you're definitely in the minority on that one.

Plus in post-Tex/Red40k era anything about Tukayyid that isn't centered solely around ComStar with tagline "Get *****, Clanner!!!" will cause fandom-wide meltdowns of epic proportions

I seriously doubt the developers are paying much attention (if any) to some random YouTubers and the cringy portion of their listeners who'd actually act like this.

Or if they really want to show downfall of Jaguars while avoiding their silliness on Tukayyid they should just do a time skip before last several missions, play cutscene about how hard Jaguars screwed up an and have last missions take place on Huntress as protagonists get mauled by SERPENT while they ride their Threshers in hopeless last stand as disposable solahama while string orchestra plays in the background

It would be nonsensical to build up to an epic battle just to skip over it.

All Jaguars got was a meme, their HQ might as well have been a circus tent while their comms played Benny Hill music throughout the whole thing

Imagine thinking Luthien was any less of a meme for the Jaguars.

Now let's go back to the real world: What's actually going to happen in this new Clan MW videogame is that they will simply pull a good old Star Wars

There will be several missions against other Clans and pirates but once Jaguars make contact with the Inner Sphere the protagonist will defect to the other side after seeing the error of their ways and will continue fighting for truth, justice and the FedCom/Wolf way (whichever they decide to skedaddle to)

No way we will get to play the villain in a videogame that is sold for money

Just look at latest expansion for MW5: players are apparently fighting for the Kuritans but not exactly since they will actually be playing as mercenaries working somehow for Kuritans (despite the whole Kuritan "no to mercenaries" thing they had back then, correct me if I got the period wrong)

If they won't allow players to play as evil Kuritans they sure as hell won't allow them to play as Smoke Jaguars who are just as evil as Kuritans

Again, they need to sell this thing

... we're literally going to be commanding a Star of Smoke Jaguars. Says so right in the announcement. What are you even talking about?

[Church14]

“Won’t sell a game where you are the bad guys”

GrandTheftAuto, Saints Row, Payday, Hitman would love a word.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

That's... certainly an opinion. Tukayyid is pretty universally considered to be epic. ...

It's amazingly epic

But not for Smoke Jaguars

Hell, they were first ones to slither away with their tails between their keisters, they weren't even around for the whole thing

Imagine thinking that the most famous battle the Clans as a whole have ever fought isn't videogame material. Yeah, you're definitely in the minority on that one.

It was definitely a famous battle which Clans fought

But again, not for Smoke Jaguars

It's a story of ComStar valor and Clan Wolf brilliance

And a story of how Khan of Smoke Jaguars got stuck under a falling mech despite having jet engine strapped to his posterior while supposedly being the most amazing Elemental ever

It's side splitting material

I seriously doubt the developers are paying much attention (if any) to some random YouTubers and the cringy portion of their listeners who'd actually act like this.

They were featured prominently in the Kickstarter

I'd say developers are definitely paying attention

It would be nonsensical to build up to an epic battle just to skip over it.

I never said they should skip over Luthien

Imagine thinking Luthien was any less of a meme for the Jaguars.

Luthien was THEIR story

Up until then they were still the top dog and they burned themselves out over there like proper troopers

Tukayyid is story about how they became a sideshow in a tale of their own demise, ComStar, Focht, Wolves, VSD and Second Star League were the main event afterwards

... we're literally going to be commanding a Star of Smoke Jaguars. Says so right in the announcement. What are you even talking about?

You were playing as Imperials in Star Wars Battlefront 2

It lasted for whole three levels