Butcher's Bill: June 3152 DCMS vs. AFFS

[BrianDavion]

I think it’d be poetic justice, personally.

It would but at the same time I'm a little leery of Luthien being occupied. it's one of those "things that done sparingly can really be a shocking thing" but if over done just loses it;s impact. I think I'd rather see the dracs prioritize the defence of Luthein to such a degree that it costs them elsewhere, sort of a "strategic robbing peter to pay paul" scenerio. Where perhaps the DCMS is pulled to Luthein to defend it and as a result they lose several important worlds to the FS and the Bears as they denude them of troops.

Maybe have the Defence of Luthein allow the Davions to take a few planets, hell let em take back Marduk or even Quintein (losing quintin would be a HUUUGE blow to the dracs. eneugh that "yeah they held Luthein but lost Quintin as a result" would be rough, it'd be the equivilant of the Fedsuns holding new avalon but losing Kathil as a result_

[CJC070]

It would but at the same time I'm a little leery of Luthien being occupied. it's one of those "things that done sparingly can really be a shocking thing" but if over done just loses it;s impact. I think I'd rather see the dracs prioritize the defence of Luthein to such a degree that it costs them elsewhere, sort of a "strategic robbing peter to pay paul" scenerio. Where perhaps the DCMS is pulled to Luthein to defend it and as a result they lose several important worlds to the FS and the Bears as they denude them of troops.

Maybe have the Defence of Luthein allow the Davions to take a few planets, hell let em take back Marduk or even Quintein (losing quintin would be a HUUUGE blow to the dracs. eneugh that "yeah they held Luthein but lost Quintin as a result" would be rough, it'd be the equivilant of the Fedsuns holding new avalon but losing Kathil as a result_

Agreed we already had the invasion of Avalon.  Having Luthien Part II with the Ghost Bears playing the Nova Cats and Smoke Jaguars seems to repetitive.  However if this is in the same flavour as the upcoming iClan battle (Capellans vs. Wolf Empire) where it becomes a world wide event for us to participate in I can get behind it.

[tassa_kay]

It would but at the same time I'm a little leery of Luthien being occupied. it's one of those "things that done sparingly can really be a shocking thing" but if over done just loses it;s impact. I think I'd rather see the dracs prioritize the defence of Luthein to such a degree that it costs them elsewhere, sort of a "strategic robbing peter to pay paul" scenerio. Where perhaps the DCMS is pulled to Luthein to defend it and as a result they lose several important worlds to the FS and the Bears as they denude them of troops.

Maybe have the Defence of Luthein allow the Davions to take a few planets, hell let em take back Marduk or even Quintein (losing quintin would be a HUUUGE blow to the dracs. eneugh that "yeah they held Luthein but lost Quintin as a result" would be rough, it'd be the equivilant of the Fedsuns holding new avalon but losing Kathil as a result_

You'll forgive me if I don't find the self-serving argument of "nah, let's just let the FedSuns take some worlds from the Dracs instead" to be any more impactful than Luthien being occupied (or glassed, as I was originally suggesting) by the Clans for the first time ever. The rinse-and-repeat tug of war at the border, talk about something losing its impact. 

[Stormlion1]

Luthien doesn't need to be glassed. The Clans could go for a ground invasion instead but with no thought of occupation. Just wholesale destruction and harvest if people for Bondsman. Might even be funny if they capture Yori Kurita and essentially chop off the Dragons head both figuratively and in actuality.

[tassa_kay]

Luthien doesn't need to be glassed.

It absolutely does. While the ghosts of the Nova Cats and Kentares laugh maniacally and roast marshmallows as it burns.

[Hellraiser]

As if the authors would miss an opportunity to remove another WarShip from the setting.

Oh god no, don't give them ideas.

I think it’d be poetic justice, personally.

Agreed.
Remember Palmyra!  (or Pearl Harbor or Kentares)

You'll forgive me if I don't find the self-serving argument of "nah, let's just let the FedSuns take some worlds from the Dracs instead" to be any more impactful than Luthien being occupied (or glassed, as I was originally suggesting) by the Clans for the first time ever. The rinse-and-repeat tug of war at the border, talk about something losing its impact. 

You might not feel that way if it was Sian being burned down, lol.

Actually I'm not a fan of any of the capitols being glassed or even invaded.
Mostly because I find it all so improbable as part of the story.

We had a 2 century long 3rd SW because no one had the armies, willpower, transport ability, to drive that deep into invasions anymore.
I actually understood the 4SW because it came down to Steiner/Davion joining up & then full accepting that the Drac March was going to take abuse even w/ Steiner distracting Kurita.  It allowed the largest army to pick on the smallest army & it still only chopped off a couple Prefectures.  It also had Michael, a traitor who had been found out & Justin, a spy that no one saw coming. 
I can also get Operation: Guerrero where you had Katie pulling out all Lyran troops at the same time Marik & Liao combined intel & did a Joint invasion.  Net Effect = Big Win

Pretty much all the stuff in the post jihad stories doesn't seem to have those kinds of combined allies & intel sharing.
Instead we get Palmyra some sort of contrived battle where 1 side totally waffle stomps the other with "stupidity & improbability" as their allies.
13 Units destroyed?  13 Regiments/RCTs/LCT?
So 13+ Wings/Regiments of their own attached ASF & they couldn't put together a defensive fleet to hold off a the enemy prior to them smoking your Cruiser & then bombing the units on the ground.
Sorry, I just have issues w/ such 1-sided battles.

Even the stories of Wolves taking Terra.  There are a LOT of warships mentioned.  And I like that, don't get me wrong.
But I'm forced to wonder where they came from.
I mean, I could see the Terran shipyards making some new ships "IF THEY ACTUALLY WANTED TO" grrr, stonertech, gah!
  But where would the Wolves get new Warships from?

Going on offenses like the 4th SW & even the Wo39 Dracs on Defense were both supposed to have crippled civilian shipping & the economy for decades afterwards.
Now days even w/ 1/2 the shipyards in the IS wiped out & everyone shorter on JS that ever its like you can just spend a few years on offense w/o any issues.

Oddly, I'd like to see the logic/backstory behind these things, but maybe that is just me.

[tassa_kay]

You might not feel that way if it was Sian being burned down, lol.

Oh, please. I toughed out York being bombarded for over twenty days straight and my favorite faction being ground into absolute dust with no hope of a comeback ever. I stopped crying about Bad Things Happening to factions I like (all I care about is logic and consistency) a long time ago.

[Arkansas Warrior]

We had everyone’s capitals being attacked/invaded/occupied a few years ago (OOC) during the Jihad.  More recently we’ve had Tharkad attacked by clans, New Avalon occupied by the DC, and possibly something due to happen on Luthien.  At some point, the novelty of “Successor State capital under threat” becomes old news. Yawn.  Seen it.  Oh, another one?  I’d rather that didn’t happen.  Threats to capitals of major interstellar states should be rare and unusual.  But as a FedSuns fan, I’d struggle to feel bad for Luthien if the Bears show up, steal all their factories, loot Intel from various DCMS, ISF, and O5P command centers, and bombard the rest.

[GuyIncognito]

A Battle of Luthien already got a cool scenario pack anyway, haha.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Luthien doesn't need to be glassed. The Clans could go for a ground invasion instead but with no thought of occupation. Just wholesale destruction and harvest if people for Bondsman. Might even be funny if they capture Yori Kurita and essentially chop off the Dragons head both figuratively and in actuality.

This is good idea, they should do all this

And after that they should glass the whole place


If there's a planet in BT that truly deserves to be glassed it's Luthien, having a Clan be the one to do it would make it even sweeter

Tortuga Prime has more redeeming qualities than Luthien

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Oh, please. I toughed out York being bombarded for over twenty days straight and my favorite faction being ground into absolute dust with no hope of a comeback ever. I stopped crying about Bad Things Happening to factions I like (all I care about is logic and consistency) a long time ago.

But the Blood Spirits were never going to be anything more than something for the Adders to beat the shit out of. That's all they were the moment they were introduced and that's the only purpose they served until they day they died. Luthien actually means something.

[Metallgewitter]

The Bears invading Luthine would only turn into a quagmire. Luthien's garrison weasn't reduced as far asiknow.Heck with it's fanatical defenders they might turn the invading Bears to shreds as the Bears only brought ONE galaxy to the front. And the Jihad showed that a Leviathan can be brought to it's knees when you have enough nukes

[BrianDavion]

But the Blood Spirits were never going to be anything more than something for the Adders to beat the shit out of. That's all they were the moment they were introduced and that's the only purpose they served until they day they died. Luthien actually means something.

Little harsh to dismiss as faction someone likes as largely meaningless. I mean what if someone shrugged off the LC's current problems by saying the LC mostly existed to give a ally/source of production to the FedSuns and not that that's done who cares what happens to them? That said I think the home clans, all of them, where doomed simply because the writers couldn't figure out how to tie the home worlds into the narrative of the Inner Sphere and the got tired with basicly writing a second setting

[BrianDavion]

The Bears invading Luthine would only turn into a quagmire. Luthien's garrison weasn't reduced as far asiknow.Heck with it's fanatical defenders they might turn the invading Bears to shreds as the Bears only brought ONE galaxy to the front. And the Jihad showed that a Leviathan can be brought to it's knees when you have enough nukes

Per FM 3145 the Luthien garrion consists of:

The Izanagi Warriors (Elite Fanatical)
the Otomo (Elite Fanatical)
the 2nd Sword of Light (Elite Fanatical)
10 Pescht Regulars (Regular Reliable)
5th Sun Zhang Cadre (Vetern Fanatical 2 battalions)


So basicly 5 regiments of mechs plus supporting conventionals. that's going to be hard to take, the bears would proably need to throw 2 or more galaxies at it to have a chance.

[Metallgewitter]

Per FM 3145 the Luthien garrion consists of:

The Izanagi Warriors (Elite Fanatical)
the Otomo (Elite Fanatical)
the 2nd Sword of Light (Elite Fanatical)
10 Pescht Regulars (Regular Reliable)
5th Sun Zhang Cadre (Vetern Fanatical 2 battalions)

I would suspect that Yori thinned the defenses slightly to cover other borders. But let's not forget that there is also a strong milita and also more DEST units then anywhere else. If the Bears only use Taiga Galaxy as offense they will get thrashed there. Unless they bring more forces which would open holes elsewhere

So basicly 5 regiments of mechs plus supporting conventionals. that's going to be hard to take, the bears would proably need to throw 2 or more galaxies at it to have a chance.

[Minemech]

I would lean on the side of or more. Furthermore, we do not know the status of Luthien's famed aerospace defenses, which likely are aimed at sinking Leviathans.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

But the Blood Spirits were never going to be anything more than something for the Adders to beat the shit out of. That's all they were the moment they were introduced and that's the only purpose they served until they day they died....

Any time I use this reasoning to describe FRR people get big mad

...Luthien actually means something.

It means a single planet among at least 350+ other planets in Draconis Combine

Yes it's important planet but nothing that overall faction couldn't truck on without, Combine is a big place

[tassa_kay]

But the Blood Spirits were never going to be anything more than something for the Adders to beat the shit out of. That's all they were the moment they were introduced and that's the only purpose they served until they day they died. Luthien actually means something.

Just like York meant something to those of us who enjoyed the Blood Spirits and the Home Clans in general. I think I understand what you're saying here; Luthien matters more to the metaplot of the game. And you're not wrong. But the point I was making is that getting upset about these sorts of things is silly. It's all fictional. What's the point of getting so upset about Bad Things Happening to one's faction like Bad Things don't happen to every faction at some point or another?

Little harsh to dismiss as faction someone likes as largely meaningless.

I didn't take it that way. Everyone finds their meaning in this franchise in different things, and it's silly to take things like that personally. Some people here love to ride in and white-knight for their faction if they get even a whiff of someone dismissing it, but that ain't me. What's the point, you know? Other peoples' opinion of the characters and factions I myself enjoy couldn't matter less to me. I'll never understand people that find their self-esteem in how well or not well their factions are doing.

[Minemech]

 I am not a fan of eliminating systems, though some Clan worlds would genuinely be better off abandoned.

[Metallgewitter]

It means a single planet among at least 350+ other planets in Draconis Combine

Yes it's important planet but nothing that overall faction couldn't truck on without, Combine is a big place

The main problem for the Combine is that they are steeped in the samurai culture. The loss of Luthin might turn good soldiers into "brainless" kamikaze who just charge without any strategy jut to regain a percieved loss of honor. House Davion survived the loss of 3 of it's capital worlds because they still were able to follow an exile goverment. And yes during hte Jihad the Combine relocated to New Samarkand for a while but Luthien wasn't lost back then. It was a battlefield nothing more. And let's not forget just like New Avalon Luthien holds a significant level of industrial might. Loosing LAW alone would be a huge blow to the Combine.

[Gorgon]

As a Drac fan I'm fine with the Combine getting smacked, even losing Luthien and Quentin I can very well life with - as long as it's happening on screen. We didn't get to see their (arguably) greatest success from their perspective, give us at least their desperate struggle to keep the Bears and Fedrats (and maybe even Wolfs, who knows) contained. If it's a good story about a faction I find interesting, who cares if the outcome is good or bad? It's the story that counts. Winning or losing only matters on the tabletop. And even then...


Look at the FWL - their best storyline only came to pass because the faction completely imploded.

[Stormlion1]

If a state doesn't have a backup Capitol then there not planning well enough. Losing Luthien would be a blow but a recoverable one. It's the upper tier of the management structure the various states cannot afford to lose. Lose Yori Kurita and the Combine has no designated next leader.

[Minemech]

Look at the FWL - their best storyline only came to pass because the faction completely imploded.

Their best storyline came to pass because they bothered to make a storyline about the League. The two previous Battletech novels were side stories to the main plot.
 Star Lord really was not so much even a side story as roleplayer's campaign.
 Ideal War was an excuse to give Gibson to the Word of Blake.
 I am not really sure they can be considered Free Worlds League storylines when all things are considered.
 

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Any time I use this reasoning to describe FRR people get big mad

Which is crazy because Rasalhague is the very definition of a sacrificial lamb. If you're going to back them it needs to be BECAUSE you like going down with sinking ships.

Their best storyline came to pass because they bothered to make a storyline about the League.

Actually bothering to put spotlight on the FWL and give them things to do made people like them, who'd have thought?

[MarauderD]

As a Drac fan I'm fine with the Combine getting smacked, even losing Luthien and Quentin I can very well life with - as long as it's happening on screen. We didn't get to see their (arguably) greatest success from their perspective, give us at least their desperate struggle to keep the Bears and Fedrats (and maybe even Wolfs, who knows) contained. If it's a good story about a faction I find interesting, who cares if the outcome is good or bad? It's the story that counts. Winning or losing only matters on the tabletop. And even then...

I can't imagine the Combine having enough industry to succeed if they lost Luthien and Quentin in the same 10 year period.  That being said, I think a Rasalhague vs. Combine story line could be interesting, so long as it isn't just a side note. 

If it did turn into a major conflict, I don't see how the FedSuns under Julian (or the Draconis March acting alone under Erik) could possibly not launch an invasion to retake more of the border worlds.  Especially with all the history and precedence of March Lords using their authority to attack enemies without official sanction from New Avalon (George Hasek, Aaron Sandoval, Alexander Hasek, etc etc ad nausem).

[Hellraiser]

Oh, please. I toughed out York being bombarded for over twenty days straight and my favorite faction being ground into absolute dust with no hope of a comeback ever. I stopped crying about Bad Things Happening to factions I like (all I care about is logic and consistency) a long time ago.

That's true, the loss of the Spirits sucked.
They were one of those "later" factions that the FMs fluffed out nicely & while none of them could replace my early love of the Wolves from the Stackpole novels they were one of the ones I really liked.

[Hellraiser]

Per FM 3145 the Luthien garrion consists of:

So basicly 5 regiments of mechs plus supporting conventionals. that's going to be hard to take, the bears would proably need to throw 2 or more galaxies at it to have a chance.

That doesn't even count the kind of "militia" they had in 3052 either where they had what, 3 regiments of retirees in old mechs come out to face the Jag/Cats force?
I'd imagine some of those mechs are still stored somewhere.

[Minemech]

That doesn't even count the kind of "militia" they had in 3052 either where they had what, 3 regiments of retirees in old mechs come out to face the Jag/Cats force?
I'd imagine some of those mechs are still stored somewhere.

I hate to put a damper but if any state can fail at preservation and quality control, it is the Draconis Combine. They are the ones who only buy cheap tires figuring that they are actually saving money because they have to replace them so frequently.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

I can't imagine the Combine having enough industry to succeed if they lost Luthien and Quentin in the same 10 year period....

Is it really that bad?

Like I said it's 350+ system superpower, no matter how important those two planets are there's no way they don't have sufficient industrial capacity somewhere across remaining 348 systems

We have far smaller nations with much higher durability than this

How much industry can you even cram on a single place like Luthien? No way it can be enough to supply something like DCMS all by itself

[Minemech]

Is it really that bad?

Like I said it's 350+ system superpower, no matter how important those two planets are there's no way they don't have sufficient industrial capacity somewhere across remaining 348 systems

We have far smaller nations with much higher durability than this

How much industry can you even cram on a single place like Luthien? No way it can be enough to supply something like DCMS all by itself

The Draconis Combine is a resource poor command economy, the resources are where the leadership says they are to be. The leadership is a mite paranoid and even sabotaged their own warship program to keep dissidents from having strategically useful assets. All trains pass through Moscow.