MechCommander's Handbook Preview - Era Overview and Force Building

[Rob Bendig]

That's pretty cool. Where did you get your list of mechs and their rarity for each faction data?

I used the Availability lists in the MechCommander's Handbook preview that was shared at the start of this thread (collapsing different models to a single line for each Mech).

[Rekkon]

Very similar to many of the tables I have compiled.

[Geg]

Put yourself in the shoes of someone entirely new to the game.  They are very likely doing exactly what was asked, at least initially.
Providing an easy on-ramp for them to use their Force Packs as purchased seems smart especially if it doesn't add tremendous complexity or bulk to the book.

The Force packs don't come in a fixed PV/BV, nor are they even easily matched against each other or the boxsets.  Anyone buying them, still needs to go through the basic list building activity in order to put together a game, including using variants, and swapping with other mechs they own.

[Scotty]

The Force packs don't come in a fixed PV/BV, nor are they even easily matched against each other or the boxsets.  Anyone buying them, still needs to go through the basic list building activity in order to put together a game, including using variants, and swapping with other mechs they own.

Just because they don't take you all the way to the finish line doesn't mean it's unhelpful that there's a track in the first place.

[cmerwin]

Any chance you could add a table for each Era summarizing Availability across the factions? This would help someone see at a glance which Factions are most appropriate for a given Mech.

Something like this:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lxY9-7JR_CPrac10YA_pYGKuCZJJskTfdnU95PAUFrQ/edit?usp=sharing

Yes! This! Thank you for this, and agreed that this table would be a nice addition.

[Xotl]

I don't think I'd be able to fit anything like that in.  There's not five factions in this book but at least 12 off the top of my head, and many many more mechs than what is listed.  Unless I repeated the table in every era to make it more manageable, but that would still wind up being a huge amount of page count added.  Ultimately there's a limit to the amount of space a book can devote to tables, and I think this book is up against it as it is.

[Rob Bendig]

I don't think I'd be able to fit anything like that in.  There's not five factions in this book but at least 12 off the top of my head, and many many more mechs than what is listed.  Unless I repeated the table in every era to make it more manageable, but that would still wind up being a huge amount of page count added.  Ultimately there's a limit to the amount of space a book can devote to tables, and I think this book is up against it as it is.

I was hoping you could include a table per era since the factions and mech availability change quite a bit between eras (and dealing with 3-dimensional data - mech x faction x era - is messy if you don't have a clean slice). So that would be an extra page or two per era. Its understandable if that can't be included if it pushes you over the target page count. It is fairly easily reproducible by the reader (as I did for Clan Invasion). I just think it would be extremely useful for the reader if it could be included.

[Youngblood]

Weren't the individual faction Force Manuals going to tackle more of this detail that the MCH can't?  I thought the simple list of Availabilities in the MCH working sample was fine - the posts above just seem like asking for a print copy of the (constantly updated) Master Unit List again.  You can literally search up Faction x Era on the MUL and get literally all the unit types and variants for that.

Or is what's being asked for a further development of the MUL in giving every single variant a (faction x era) rarity sub-rating?

[jairb]

Weren't the individual faction Force Manuals going to tackle more of this detail that the MCH can't?  I thought the simple list of Availabilities in the MCH working sample was fine - the posts above just seem like asking for a print copy of the (constantly updated) Master Unit List again.  You can literally search up Faction x Era on the MUL and get literally all the unit types and variants for that.

Or is what's being asked for a further development of the MUL in giving every single variant a (faction x era) rarity sub-rating?

Explaining factions and eras and how they are represented in the MUL to new players coming from other game systems is pretty daunting.  A downloadable supplemental PDF to the MCH with example forces built directly from boxed Force Packs would be welcomed by many.  It's certainly not necessary, but several of us are trying to make the case for easing the initial learning curve for people not already steeped in decades of lore.

[Rob Bendig]

Weren't the individual faction Force Manuals going to tackle more of this detail that the MCH can't?  I thought the simple list of Availabilities in the MCH working sample was fine - the posts above just seem like asking for a print copy of the (constantly updated) Master Unit List again.  You can literally search up Faction x Era on the MUL and get literally all the unit types and variants for that.

Or is what's being asked for a further development of the MUL in giving every single variant a (faction x era) rarity sub-rating?

This is just about taking the Availability lists proposed for MCH and putting them into consolidated era tables. Easily done by the reader but a handy resource if already included.

When trying to dela with lore friendly allocations, the MUL simply presents a binary yes/no answer to the mech x faction x era question. It does not have any nuance regarding frequency/likelihood/availability. e.g. looking for a Light Mech to stick in a LCAF Clan Invasion era lance - valid MUL suggestions are Mongoose, Javelin and Ostscout as well as the more common Locust or iconic Commando. A lance of Mongoose is valid but not lore friendly. Conversely, wondering where to stick a Cicada or two (e.g. CDA-3M)? The MUL answer is "Inner Sphere General" without indicating that while it would be uncommon to the FWLM, it would be rare for anyone else.

[jgodwin17]

Somewhat related with the MUL and it's relationship with new players (we frequently get a lot of new players in our group).....

I always thought it would be a good idea to have "starter army packs" like the boxes GW has (at least for Alpha strike), to help new players. Each box could have 8 mechs with variants chosen to add up to 250 points (roughly the same value as each side of the Starter Set), with the printed Alpha Strike cards included (make all the boxes the same era), a copy of the quick start Alpha strike rulebook from the Starter set, and a set of faction dice. For example a DCMS box could include a Wasp, Jenner, Panther, Wolverine, Catapult, Dragon, Lancelot, and Katana. Start with the five major houses, and if those sell well add a couple Clan Starters too. It would make it easy for a new player to pick a faction and have a good collection of iconic mechs that are usable in most eras.

Catalyst wouldn't even need to make new sculpts, and if you could sell a box for about 60 USD I think it would make onboarding to the game much easier for new players. No messing around with the MUL and combing through bunches of variants or what not. Just open up the box, read the rules, and play a game. It would be great to be able to point out a Fed Suns army box for a new player who is interested in them as their faction. I think the army sets would also sell pretty well to experienced players who want to start a new faction up.

I find the MUL is much more manageable to use once you have played a few games and are a bit more familiar with stuff. I know the guy who is kind of the ring leader of our community has a 200 point army for each of the five great houses that use pretty iconic units to that house and when new players come he just says "pick the one that you like the mechs the best in," and then grabs another one and plays a demo game with them. That method had me playing Lyrans as my first faction, as I liked their iconic mechs the best. After playing a few games and becoming more familiar with some of the mechs (I was already familiar with some of the common mechs as I played the HBS game), the MUL became a lot more easy to navigate.

[Sartris]

The force manuals have some availability but not comprehensive. Some people seem to want the MUL in print plus availability which is never going to happen

[Fat Guy]

Something we did that you might consider including: RATs for formation type and faction. After choosing Clan Or Inner Sphere, roll 2d6 for formation type and 1d6 for faction. What we've been doing is rolling a formation type, then each side rolls a faction (re-rolling if both sides roll the same faction).

Clan
2   Assault Star – Front Line
3   Assault Star – Second Line
4   Calvary Star – Front Line
5   Calvary Star – Second Line
6   Battle Star – Medium - Front Line
7   Battle Star – Heavy – Front Line
8   Battle Star – Second Line
9   Support Star – Front Line
10 Support Star – Second Line
11 Pursuit Star – Front Line
12 Pursuit Star - Second Line

1   Clan Ghost Bear
2   Clan Jade Falcon
3   Clan Nova Cat
4   Clan Smoke Jaguar
5   Clan Wolf
6   Roll Again


Inner Sphere
2   Assault Lance
3   Calvary Lance
4   Fire Lance – Medium
5   Fire Lance – Heavy
6   Battle Lance – Medium
7   Battle lance – Heavy
8   Support Lance
9   Pursuit Lance
10 Recon Lance
11  Roll Again
12  Roll Again

1  Capellan Confereration
2   Draconis Combine
3   Federated Suns
4   Free Worlds League
5   Lyran Commonwealth
6   Mercenaries & Periphery

[Rob Bendig]

Maybe I missed something but why are the Diamond Sharks and Steel Vipers left out from the Clan Invasion era tables? If nothing else, it would be nice to have an explanation and a reference to say which other clan tables to use for them.

[theothersarah]

Maybe I missed something but why are the Diamond Sharks and Steel Vipers left out from the Clan Invasion era tables? If nothing else, it would be nice to have an explanation and a reference to say which other clan tables to use for them.

Yeah, either the Nova Cats should not be present or those two should be added.

If the chapter is meant to represent the state of things in 3050 before the other three Clans were tagged in to the invasion, which seems to be implied by the introduction date cap of 3050, the Nova Cats shouldn't be there at all.

However, the chapter acknowledges that the Nova Cats didn't enter until 3051. But they also entered alongside the Steel Vipers and Diamond Sharks, so if the Nova Cats are present those two should also be present in the chapter.

[Xotl]

Maybe I missed something but why are the Diamond Sharks and Steel Vipers left out from the Clan Invasion era tables? If nothing else, it would be nice to have an explanation and a reference to say which other clan tables to use for them.

There's a general set of guidelines I'm adhering to for any given era.  At the same time, if I think it makes sense to introduce a small exception to my own guidelines I will: they're not ironclad laws.  So here, it's 3050.  The Nova Cats, Sharks and Vipers show up slightly after, but only the Cats have a real notable role, so I decided to make an exception just for them.  No sense in handcuffing yourself.

The idea of pointing readers to where to look for some info for other factions is a good one: I'll add some notes along those lines.

[Rob Bendig]

Wondering about the inclusion of the Icarus II ICR-1S in the FWLM tables. You have it showing up on a roll of 7 on the Random Assignment Table which seems a much higher frequency than the Rare classification it has in the Availability Table. With a role of 2d6, that will be the most common Medium in a F rated force.

The SW Technical Readout says there were only a handful left in operation after the Succession Wars and the MUL doesn't show any use between Early Succession Wars and Jihad. If it should exist, but Rare, there probably needs to be an update to the MUL.

[Xotl]

The RATs are not sorted by rarity: in a break from tradition they're sorted by BV.  I explain the reasons for this in the first post in the thread, but in short, if you want accuracy, you should be using the other methods provided; the RATs are purely to generate a force as quickly as possible.  In the preview you'll see that the Icarus II is listed as a Rare choice in the FWL list.

[Rob Bendig]

The RATs are not sorted by rarity: in a break from tradition they're sorted by BV.  I explain the reasons for this in the first post in the thread, but in short, if you want accuracy, you should be using the other methods provided; the RATs are purely to generate a force as quickly as possible. 

Thanks for the reminder to review the first post - good to refresh on the intent. I forgot that detail and was thrown off by the fan RATs which actually carry a probability aspect in the unit tables.

In the preview you'll see that the Icarus II is listed as a Rare choice in the FWL list.

Yes, but that would seem to be a disconnect from the MUL data for this mech.

[Xotl]

The two are not completely equivalent: the MUL and this book will do things in different ways.  The MUL chose to interpret "a small number" as "that means not enough to matter", and this work (using a different methodology) is going with "that means Rare" (whatever "Rare" happens to mean).  When canon statements are vague there's room for varying interpretations, based on different criteria.  We know originals survive well into the Jihad (when they enter production again) and so overall the mech never goes extinct: this is canon fact.  But how any given availability mechanic might choose to play with that can vary.

[Charistoph]

I realise that this is going somewhat against decades of precedent but I feel that the increasing import of Roles in Formations for both Alpha Strike and Total Warfare bonuses means that it is more important to list availability organised by Role rather than by weight class.

I see where you are going, but it should be a combination of both.  Either first sorted by Weight Class then Role, or Role than Weight Class.  Still it's helpful to know for those who are using Roles in their unit selection.

[Karasu]

I see where you are going, but it should be a combination of both.  Either first sorted by Weight Class then Role, or Role than Weight Class.  Still it's helpful to know for those who are using Roles in their unit selection.

Or, inspired by Xotl's comment a couple of posts back, maybe by BV within Role?

[jasonf]

FWIW, when it comes to putting together my own RATs, I've been listing the BV, PV, and role right in the RAT itself. For example:
"Panther PNT-10K {838, 19, Brawler}"

That way, all the basic force-building info needed is right there on the RAT.

Maybe that would make it less relevant how the RAT was sorted, since the info is all there for players to use as they wish?

[Bison AIs]

That's a main rulebook issue, not a sourcebook one.  The eventual update of the core line will tackle this better.

Apologies, I mis-remembered key info buried in the thread as being in the opening post. 😬

The poster’s actual problem is this — “My LGS is heavily into Warhammer products and has openly decided not to play Battletech due to its ambiguous nature on play expectations. Creating a local standard is my goal…”. (https://www.reddit.com/r/battletech/comments/18zealg/comment/kgha2mk/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) i.e. they’re rolling their own force building rules and probably making format assumptions based on experience from adjacent games.

What they really need is the/a MCH. 👍

There should only be one other source players will need to head to: the MUL,

The MUL does not provide CBT unit capabilities. I presume the value of this info to force building and the friction created by its absence is sufficiently self evident and/or well known to not detail here. If that absence will change by the time MCH ships, rad, no more needs said.

Some of that is dealt with in the Introduction.  Remember that you're only seeing a limited snapshot.  I didn't put the Intro chapter up because the precise format of the book wasn't nailed down (and still isn't 100%) and the Intro chapter always contains an overview with that sort of material, but I may up a mostly finished version regardless just to preempt these sorts of questions.

Yea, totally.

I know I'm stepping out of bounds to bang pots together on the point. I just think format guidance could be as or more important than faction lists and more substantial than an introduction. I always use too many words though so my imagination is skewed!

[Mostro Joe]

There will be soon previews of other sections of this book? I am really looking forward to it!

[Bison AIs]

Ah, clarity —

My brain may be stuck on 'format' because it's looking for the larger play patterns / loops that'd force building would be 'for' and that'd provide the background to judge any force building rules against.

Like, if a top priority is (hypothetical handwave) to support players coming in with adjacent wargaming experience looking for a tropish 'pick a faction, build a force, play competitive-ish pick-ups against rotating opponents', then it may make the most sense to have deeper ilClan-era tables that emphasize distinct flavors and asymmetry.

In contrast, broad era charts (and the chassis but not variant lists) could fit really well within an 'escalation' variant of 'standard' play where players pick chassis but can migrate between variants as eras advance over a 'season' of play.

Just thinking aloud.

[Mostro Joe]

Like, if a top priority is (hypothetical handwave) to support players coming in with adjacent wargaming experience looking for a tropish 'pick a faction, build a force, play competitive-ish pick-ups against rotating opponents

I hope it will never happens.