The (Third) SLDF Regular Army

[tassa_kay]

I’m betting it absolutely will, because Daoshen is even more of an egotist than Alaric, and Alaric snatching his prize away from him is gonna be something he takes very personally. An alliance between the two would be interesting, to be sure, but I can’t see it working with either of them running things within their respective factions.

[Weirdo]

Daoshen and Alaric are both absolutely incapable of bending their knee to another, and both are also absolutely incapable of going into an alliance that humiliates them with the lowly title of "Equal". Any attempt at partnership between them would be so unstable and full of fireworks that open warfare actually would be the more peaceful alternative.

[VensersRevenge]

Alaric miserably failing to get the Ghost Bears into the Star League after they asked to join but forming an alliance with the Capellans would be one of the most bizarre plot swerves possible.

[Cannonshop]

I know no one likes my position, but I'm betting Daoshen's hatred for the Republic doesn't transfer to the wolves. I think a wolf-capellan alliance is strongly in both their interest.

  I think you're wrong. 

The below is why I think you're wrong;

Factions in this setting OFTEN work directly against what logic and common sense would say is their own best interest, or even their own interests at all, and Daoshen's CapCon got the clear assignment of "shortly not going to be a nation anymore", being as their leader is nuts, and that's always indicative that a faction is going to be noisily absorbed/destroyed/overrun by the current featured 'hero' faction.  (It don't say  "ilCapellan' on the box, it says 'ilClan').  This, plus recent convention showings where the feature was a bunch of Clan units stomping the dogsnot out of a Capellan unit as the feature game, should indicate just how likely (not likely at all) such an alliance is, versus the plotline sticking to the formula (something extremely likely, because that formula has sold product for pretty close to 40 years now, and works with the majority of the audience.)

the patterns are well established for predicting which faction is going to prosper, which ones are goig to suffer, and which ones are likely to cease to exist as an independent, or at least, relevant, part of the setting for any given timeline.

But hey, I could be wrong, I just don't think I am.

[bobthecoward]

I’m betting it absolutely will, because Daoshen is even more of an egotist than Alaric, and Alaric snatching his prize away from him is gonna be something he takes very personally. An alliance between the two would be interesting, to be sure, but I can’t see it working with either of them running things within their respective factions.

I think it is an easy sell to the CCAF. I don't think many jiang-jun is going to like their odds of their dropship getting through the terran warship fleet.

[bobthecoward]

Alaric miserably failing to get the Ghost Bears into the Star League after they asked to join but forming an alliance with the Capellans would be one of the most bizarre plot swerves possible.

It isn't a swerve if it happens and.you had an unaffiliated person saying it makes sense

[tassa_kay]

Daoshen's CapCon got the clear assignment of "shortly not going to be a nation anymore", being as their leader is nuts, and that's always indicative that a faction is going to be noisily absorbed/destroyed/overrun by the current featured 'hero' faction.

The Capellans have endured several leaders over their centuries of existence who were certifiable (and some much worse than Daoshen), and Daoshen has successfully ruled the CapCon for decades. This indicates nothing.

I think it is an easy sell to the CCAF. I don't think many jiang-jun is going to like their odds of their dropship getting through the terran warship fleet.

The fact that you think Daoshen would even consider “selling” the idea to the troops instead of just issuing a divine decree shows me you don’t really understand his character at all.

Plus I think VensersRevenge called it: if Alaric couldn’t even make it work with the Ghost Bears, a faction much more inclined to actually work with him, he doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of getting Daoshen Liao of all people to do so.

[bobthecoward]

The Capellans have endured several leaders over their centuries of existence who were certifiable (and some much worse than Daoshen), and Daoshen has successfully ruled the CapCon for decades. This indicates nothing.

The fact that you think Daoshen would even consider “selling” the idea to the troops instead of just issuing a divine decree shows me you don’t really understand his character at all.

Plus I think VensersRevenge called it: if Alaric couldn’t even make it work with the Ghost Bears, a faction much more inclined to actually work with him, he doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of getting Daoshen Liao of all people to do so.

Alaric has an expectation and a plan for everyone because of a lot of grudges: DC killed a clan, GB didn't submit, LC stabbed him in the back, FWL is attacking the Wolf Empire, FS has fought the clans the entire time. He hasn't thought much about capellans.

[tassa_kay]

He hasn't thought much about capellans.

I highly doubt that’s true, considering the Capellans are the number one threat sitting on his doorstep and with the lion’s share of their offensive capabilities to boot. Plus there’s the upcoming Clans-versus-Capellans battle on New Earth.

[bobthecoward]

I highly doubt that’s true, considering the Capellans are the number one threat sitting on his doorstep and with the lion’s share of their offensive capabilities to boot. Plus there’s the upcoming Clans-versus-Capellans battle on New Earth.

That isn't an existing threat that he thought about for years. Michael Jordan only took every slight personally because he could do something about it. Neither side have a viable path outside of pyrrhic victory has a way of putting aside differences.

Chaos Theory?

[Cannonshop]

I think it is an easy sell to the CCAF. I don't think many jiang-jun is going to like their odds of their dropship getting through the terran warship fleet.

A fleet that existed before they started attacking and they attacked anyway?

Like I said, the game has a long and established history of factions acting directly against their own interests in order to create the illusion of conflict.  Think it through; the Confederation's 'navy' has been nothing but dropships since the Jihad, nobody else built any more, and the Republic actually had a few (and didn't build any more).

that fleet is not a barrier, because it's largely irrelevant to the decision process of a nutjob, and Daoshen is crazy, and not getting saner.

Meanwhile, Alaric has no reason to respect the Capellans, much less seek them as an alliance, but he does have cause to want to remove them from play.  Why? because that's how the plotline is forming, because they're a random factor, and because they're attacking.

Their potential isn't 'alliance' it's 'object lesson'.

[bobthecoward]

A fleet that existed before they started attacking and they attacked anyway?

Like I said, the game has a long and established history of factions acting directly against their own interests in order to create the illusion of conflict.  Think it through; the Confederation's 'navy' has been nothing but dropships since the Jihad, nobody else built any more, and the Republic actually had a few (and didn't build any more).

that fleet is not a barrier, because it's largely irrelevant to the decision process of a nutjob, and Daoshen is crazy, and not getting saner.

Meanwhile, Alaric has no reason to respect the Capellans, much less seek them as an alliance, but he does have cause to want to remove them from play.  Why? because that's how the plotline is forming, because they're a random factor, and because they're attacking.

Their potential isn't 'alliance' it's 'object lesson'.

Daoshen is very competent.

[tassa_kay]

That isn't an existing threat that he thought about for years.

You’re just making things up now. The Capellans are not only an existing threat, they’re the most immediate existing threat to Alaric. The other Houses are turned fairly inward right now; the Capellans, meanwhile, are sitting on Terra’s doorstep with the bulk of their forces and are actively trying to penetrate the Wall (which, as a reminder, is living on borrowed time now). You’re kidding yourself if you think Alaric hasn’t given the Capellans a lot of thought.

[bobthecoward]

You’re just making things up now. The Capellans are not only an existing threat, they’re the most immediate existing threat to Alaric. The other Houses are turned fairly inward right now; the Capellans, meanwhile, are sitting on Terra’s doorstep with the bulk of their forces and are actively trying to penetrate the Wall (which, as a reminder, is living on borrowed time now). You’re kidding yourself if you think Alaric hasn’t given the Capellans a lot of thought.

Please don't interpret my not being very clear as making things up. That is a bit rude to say to someone that has trouble communicating a thought.

By existing, I meant occupied his thoughts for years. Obliviously they would have occupied a greater portion of his thoughts since 3151. But between 3140 and 3150, probably not that much.

[Cannonshop]

Daoshen is very competent.

was very competent, might still have moments of competence, but he's already been painted with the crazy brush, along with an unhealthy amount of the '*Squick ewww" brush to make his final outcome acceptable to the audience.   You're addressing this based on mutual benefit, which is how rational decisions are made...

but there's  a major problem with that; Faction Leadership in Battletech don't make rational decisions on a consistent basis.  They make irrational decisions, because that drives storyline and product sales, and allows the authors to make someone a genius for occasionally doing something rational and intelligent on a pretty ordinary level.

[bobthecoward]

was very competent, might still have moments of competence, but he's already been painted with the crazy brush, along with an unhealthy amount of the '*Squick ewww" brush to make his final outcome acceptable to the audience.   You're addressing this based on mutual benefit, which is how rational decisions are made...

but there's  a major problem with that; Faction Leadership in Battletech don't make rational decisions on a consistent basis.  They make irrational decisions, because that drives storyline and product sales, and allows the authors to make someone a genius for occasionally doing something rational and intelligent on a pretty ordinary level.

Agree to disagree....but I get six more months of me saying it is going to happen!!!!

[Cannonshop]

Agree to disagree....but I get six more months of me saying it is going to happen!!!!

fair enough.  In six months, we'll see who's right, and who's wrong.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

well, it WILL be (is) an army of traitors, after all.

This is a bit harsh criticism for a setting in which entire planets proudly switch flags every time new owner rolls into town and where mercenaries are routinely depicted as good guys

By this logic St. Ives were traitors

[Church14]

This is a bit harsh criticism for a setting in which entire planets proudly switch flags every time new owner rolls into town and where mercenaries are routinely depicted as good guys

By this logic St. Ives were traitors

Uh… yes? During the largest crisis CC had seen in centuries, St Ives abandoned the rest of the realm because their Duchess fell in love with a Davion spy. If traitor isn’t the word, then deserter. Same with all the planets that left the RotS. Same with the clans’ ancestors. Same with the wolves twice over now when they abandoned the OZ and then the Empire. In each case it was groups abandoning their nation when it needed them.


Conquered planets cooperating with the conqueror isn’t the same thing. Ex-RAF, the few that do join the wolves, aren’t traitors by definition either. They have no government left to be loyal to. HotW made sure of it. The RAF who don’t join the wolves who think of those that do as traitors would be incorrect. Though they are right to see it as a betrayal of all the ideals they had sworn to protect and uphold for the last however many years.

[Cannonshop]

This is a bit harsh criticism for a setting in which entire planets proudly switch flags every time new owner rolls into town and where mercenaries are routinely depicted as good guys

By this logic St. Ives were traitors

I had a really snarky comment ready for this, but Church beat me to it with a much better one.  I'll differ with him on just this point: It's common doesn't make it not Treason, it just makes treason, on a practical level, socially acceptable as long as the side you switch to wins..


and you pionted it out-it's common, whether to save their skins (Rasalhague comes to mind) or because the bedplay was that goood (St. Ives).

Honor and loyalty are what are almost nonexistent. It's going to be interesting to see how alaric intends to develop those, since Fear is kind of lifespan limited when you're not isolated thousands of light years from where you began (there is a limit to how far you can blackmail someone with hostages before they just say 'screw this' and rebel, switch sides, or otherwise betray you  anyway.)

Not that he's alone in facing this problem.  Everyone else is goig to have to deal with it too.

Stone's idealism failed to prevent his nation from going full tilt eight sided civil war the moment there was a major crisis...so...yanno.  that Idealism thing didn't actually work very well, and now he's got to integrate those people into his army...and give them guns.

yikes.

[Moonsword]

MODERATOR NOTICE

Okay, folks, cool it with the interpersonal exchanges in here.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

A fleet that existed before they started attacking and they attacked anyway?

Like I said, the game has a long and established history of factions acting directly against their own interests in order to create the illusion of conflict.  Think it through; the Confederation's 'navy' has been nothing but dropships since the Jihad, nobody else built any more, and the Republic actually had a few (and didn't build any more).

that fleet is not a barrier, because it's largely irrelevant to the decision process of a nutjob, and Daoshen is crazy, and not getting saner.

Meanwhile, Alaric has no reason to respect the Capellans, much less seek them as an alliance, but he does have cause to want to remove them from play.  Why? because that's how the plotline is forming, because they're a random factor, and because they're attacking.

Their potential isn't 'alliance' it's 'object lesson'.

That Clan fleet is also made of Star League-era designs, so they'll fold up like a beer can against any kind of sustained aerospace opposition. Trying to use his fleet to punish someone would be a terrible move; imagine how bad it's going to blow back on you when you try to flex on someone and it loses you a ship dating back to the original SLDF.

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

That Clan fleet is also made of Star League-era designs, so they'll fold up like a beer can against any kind of sustained aerospace opposition. Trying to use his fleet to punish someone would be a terrible move; imagine how bad it's going to blow back on you when you try to flex on someone and it loses you a ship dating back to the original SLDF.

I'm quite curious about this scenario for several topics

How would warship vs aerospace work?

How many aerospace fighters are needed to take out average size warship?

Which aerospace models would be preferable for the job? Was it elaborated?

Amy specific examples?

I know of Star Adders losing a warship to Hanseatic aerospace fighters and Feds losing one to Kuritans over Palmyra to aerospace mercenary outfit but which are some others?

[Minemech]

I'm quite curious about this scenario for several topics

How would warship vs aerospace work?

How many aerospace fighters are needed to take out average size warship?

Which aerospace models would be preferable for the job? Was it elaborated?

Amy specific examples?

I know of Star Adders losing a warship to Hanseatic aerospace fighters and Feds losing one to Kuritans over Palmyra to aerospace mercenary outfit but which are some others?

It is very contextual and scenario dependent. More modern warships can deal with fighters to surprising effect even when poorly armored, but older SLDF warships were not designed for such a duty and could easily get overrun if their escorts fail to provide proper support. There is no such thing as a truly average warship, but Clan warships are more escort dependent than Inner Sphere ones on the whole. I cannot game this scenario because I do not know how much the Ravens have been able to provide to support the Clans, but I can tell you that it is quite likely the Capellans will win the Aerospace battle convincingly. Especially if they get the League to provide its only mobile Thera group with a bit of bribing and prodding (The League has 2 Theras, 1 is systemlocked). It is also fair to expect heavy use of fighter nuclear weapons.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Why on Earth would the FWL line the CC it’s only mobile Thera to go up against a clan fleet (which could well include Snow Ravens), so that the CC can take Terra?  What would the FWL get out of that that would be worth the risk?

[Minemech]

Why on Earth would the FWL line the CC it’s only mobile Thera to go up against a clan fleet (which could well include Snow Ravens), so that the CC can take Terra?  What would the FWL get out of that that would be worth the risk?

They are literally at war with the Wolf Empire, and annihilating Clan Wolf makes a lot of sense to every regional power short of the Clans. Not employing their fleet in the single battle where they have the highest chance for success would be foolish.

[Minemech]

Why on Earth would the FWL line the CC it’s only mobile Thera to go up against a clan fleet (which could well include Snow Ravens), so that the CC can take Terra?  What would the FWL get out of that that would be worth the risk?

If the Capellan angle worries you, for the League it is a matter of realpolitik. The League is fine with a Capellan ground invasion because the surviving CCAF would likely not be strong enough to threaten the League (Though still potent enough to defend the Capellan state). No one thinks that the Clan forces would do anything short of fighting to the death.

[Arkansas Warrior]

They are literally at war with the Wolf Empire, and annihilating Clan Wolf makes a lot of sense to every regional power short of the Clans. Not employing their fleet in the single battle where they have the highest chance for success would be foolish.

Didn’t they come to a truce late in Empire Alone?  Seems like a better choice to let their enemies pound each other to death.

[tassa_kay]

Didn’t they come to a truce late in Empire Alone?  Seems like a better choice to let their enemies pound each other to death.

I thought Empire Alone ended up with the FWLM launching an invasion of the Wolf Empire.

Also, I could see a Capellan/FWL anti-Clan alliance more if and when Danai takes over for Daoshen. She and Nikol Marik are friends (as much as two people in their positions can be) and would be much more inclined to ally against the Wolves.

[Minemech]

 From the perspective of any Successor State, you want the Capellan Confederation to win the aerospace battle. You also want them to win the ground battle, though not decisively. You do not want this because you like the Confederation, you want this because the Confederation can be contained. By contrast Sea Fox behavior is already showing the fruits of ilClan contamination (As are the Ravens and the RD), and if allowed to continue, who knows what else it will affect.

 Othar could be turned into a more interesting character if this scenario plays out right, perhaps preserving the Clan and leading it not only to survival, elsewhere, but developing it into an even more interesting actor. I just do not know where he would move to.