The (Third) SLDF Regular Army

[CJC070]

From the perspective of any Successor State, you want the Capellan Confederation to win the aerospace battle. You also want them to win the ground battle, though not decisively. You do not want this because you like the Confederation, you want this because the Confederation can be contained. By contrast Sea Fox behavior is already showing the fruits of ilClan contamination (As are the Ravens and the RD), and if allowed to continue, who knows what else it will affect.

 Othar could be turned into a more interesting character if this scenario plays out right, perhaps preserving the Clan and leading it not only to survival, elsewhere, but developing it into an even more interesting actor. I just do not know where he would move to.

To me Othar has three choices now that Alaric has essentially abandoned him.  The most likely is to take his remaining forces and join the Clan Protectorate, building a rapport with another succession state or going merc. 

I also can’t wait to see what happens to the Sea Foxes.  We know that some have helped Alaric but will all follow him as the new iKhan is the question.  Personally I hope they fracture where the title of Khan dies with Mori Hawker and each sub faction assists their respected Successor factions for their own purposes.  Basically Comstar vs Word of Blake without nukes and WMDs.

[spotH3D]

If they play it out with the rules of the game, Aerospace dumpsters dropships and warships if you balance by in universe concerns of cost, time to produce, ease of manufacturer, etc.  So much so that in the end warships are just armored jumpships that can drive to a planet.  And the best warships are the ones that dedicate a lot of space for fighter bays and drop collars for dropships with a lot of fighter bays.

As much as battlemechs are king of the ground (by the rules that understandbly favor them), Aerospace fighters are kings of the void.

And as others have said, aerospace vs Star League era warships is even worse.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I thought Empire Alone ended up with the FWLM launching an invasion of the Wolf Empire.

Also, I could see a Capellan/FWL anti-Clan alliance more if and when Danai takes over for Daoshen. She and Nikol Marik are friends (as much as two people in their positions can be) and would be much more inclined to ally against the Wolves.

Maybe you’re right.  I thought there’d been a deal brokered through the Clan Protectorate/Clan Sea Fox.  But it’s been a while.

[Church14]

Maybe you’re right.  I thought there’d been a deal brokered through the Clan Protectorate/Clan Sea Fox.  But it’s been a while.

Empire is paying Foxes to “peacekeep” and Foxes are using the protectorate. Protectorate isn’t excited about this and will likely come to a tipping point now with the war declared by FWL

[Arkansas Warrior]

Ok, I went back and reread Empire Alone.  I had definitely forgotten some things.  But now knowing those things, the logic still doesn't work for me.  If the nFWL is gearing up for war with the Wolf Empire, wouldn't they want all their naval assets?  It seems like a poor idea to send your last remaining Thera several jumps out of your space to attack an enemy that has you grossly outnumbered*, if not grossly outgunned (I'm not even going to attempt to try to compare a loaded Thera to several cruisers that might or might not have a full complement of fighters and dropships).  Not to mention that going to Terra means supporting Daoshen, who might decide that the FWL assets should take the brunt of the combat so that his forces are preserved.  It seems like a much better idea to use that group to dominate the skies as you reconquer a big chunk of the badly denuded Empire, and let the Cappies and Wolves beat each other bloody.  If the Wolves win they'll probably have a harder time coming after you.


*The Wolves and Falcons have what, about 10 assorted cruisers, plus smaller ships, plus the McKenna's Pride, plus anything CWiE has left (not much IIRC)?  The Ravens took a Naval Star to Terra IIRC, but I don't know if they left any there or went back to the Alliance with all of them.

Edit: font size issue.

[Minemech]

Ok, I went back and reread Empire Alone.  I had definitely forgotten some things.  But now knowing those things, the logic still doesn't work for me.  If the nFWL is gearing up for war with the Wolf Empire, wouldn't they want all their naval assets?  It seems like a poor idea to send your last remaining Thera several jumps out of your space to attack an enemy that has you grossly outnumbered*, if not grossly outgunned (I'm not even going to attempt to try to compare a loaded Thera to several cruisers that might or might not have a full complement of fighters and dropships).  Not to mention that going to Terra means supporting Daoshen, who might decide that the FWL assets should take the brunt of the combat so that his forces are preserved.  It seems like a much better idea to use that group to dominate the skies as you reconquer a big chunk of the badly denuded Empire, and let the Cappies and Wolves beat each other bloody.  If the Wolves win they'll probably have a harder time coming after you.


*The Wolves and Falcons have what, about 10 assorted cruisers, plus smaller ships, plus the McKenna's Pride, plus anything CWiE has left (not much IIRC)?  The Ravens took a Naval Star to Terra IIRC, but I don't know if they left any there or went back to the Alliance with all of them.

If you take a bet that the Ravens will support the Wolves, then you want an aerospace fighter heavy force that will simply break the warships available to Clan Wolf now. The Clans simply do not have the quantity of fighters necessary to match a determined Successor State and they should overrun the Clan forces brutally. Adding a Thera group in is good insurance. The Thera should not be at risk at any point of the fight.

[tassa_kay]

If you take a bet that the Ravens will support the Wolves, then you want an aerospace fighter heavy force that will simply break the warships available to Clan Wolf now. The Clans simply do not have the quantity of fighters necessary to match a determined Successor State and they should overrun the Clan forces brutally. Adding a Thera group in is good insurance. The Thera should not be at risk at any point of the fight.

The Ravens alone can muster the fighters and droppers needed to take on what’s left of the FWLN. Bonus points if they use their Thera to help do it. Hell, the Ravens might just send over some Space Elementals and Aeries and an S-Team of their space-kitted Mechs and take that Thera, too. And this is that Clan’s specialty: aerospace and naval warfare. You’re absolutely kidding yourself if you like the FWL’s Thera wouldn’t be at risk.

I also think you’re ignoring AW’s very valid point: opening up a second front with the Wolves, even given the Empire’s depleted military strength, would be risky at best and catastrophic at worst. And after seeing how things shook out between the CapCon and the Combine with their Unity Pact, not to mention Daoshen needlessly executing one of his top commanders and letting his alliances with Canopus and Andurien collapse, Nikol would be a moron to throw in with him. Daoshen gives no effs.

[Minemech]

 I was not thinking of the FWLN on its own. I was thinking of a mass of the Capellan Navy's independent aerospace regiments, those attached to PWSs, available line regimental aerospace support (quite a few on their own), borrowed militia unit assets, backed by a Thera group. That is a frightening force. It is also an unusual play as Successor States prefer depth and the long game.

[Minemech]

The Ravens alone can muster the fighters and droppers needed to take on what’s left of the FWLN. Bonus points if they use their Thera to help do it. Hell, the Ravens might just send over some Space Elementals and Aeries and an S-Team of their space-kitted Mechs and take that Thera, too.

We actually have no clue as to the actual size of the FWLN, but we do know that it will have a lot of independent aerospace wings, regiments, Interdictors, Leopard PWS, and other craft that engage on combat mostly off screen. We know how many warships they have. The problem with aerospace combat in Battletech is that it is largely bypassed unless warships are the actors. We know that there are a lot of pocket warships, assault ships and aerospace fighters out there, in some cases off of production figures.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Empire is paying Foxes to “peacekeep” and Foxes are using the protectorate. Protectorate isn’t excited about this and will likely come to a tipping point now with the war declared by FWL

I think they're very excited about it now that they've learned they can act upset and the League will turn any territory they take over to them.

[Wrangler]

Foxes are going to be walking very fine line once SLDF stand up.   Their essentially managing the mercenary trade.

This is Battletech, mercenary game play is just about life blood of game itself.  Somehow, CGL will guide mercenaries through working with or against the Clan SLDF.  Foxes I think it will be the key, but will be able stay neutral or they'll be as neutral as ComStar?

[Nerroth]

Again depending on whether or not the new SLDF Regular Army is to be run along Inner Sphere regimental lines: another potential source of recruits could be among the ex-RAF soldiers who have fled Terra in the wake of the IlClan Trial - or, having never made it to Terra, diverted to other worlds in the region instead.

While many of those refused to join ilClan Wolf, and likely would not have been accepted into its ranks had they stayed, quite a few of them have since been learning a difficult truth, as noted in recent issues of Shrapnel magazine: due to a combination of the effects of the Blackout and of the Fortress wall still active around the Sol system, no-one outside of Terra knows (or cares) who they are; what they have done; or why they should bother hiring them.

The longer this goes on, the less likely these ex-RAF escapees are going to be able to sustain themselves.

And yet, there is someone who can more accurately gauge their prior service records: the new SLDF Commanding General.

Of course, if someone starts offering them a chance to sign up to the new Regular Army, many of them might say no, regardless of how dire their situation has become... but, perhaps, more than a few might reconsider their options?

[Wrangler]

My impression is Alaric being a lovely and trusting man he is (was? one can hope) on most part, rejected allowing exRAF troops joining.  I think only in Australia and a place Asia, were only places that were allowed to serve the Wolves in some capacity.

[Minemech]

 If what you say is true, it appears that some of the writing staff needs to be reacquainted with the history of mercenary units in the Inner Sphere, particularly Wolf's Dragoons. There are currently a lot of powers in Battletech desperately starved for men and equipment, far more so than during that time. At least three Great Houses should have hired them when they landed. Even if they are low quality, they still have uses. 

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Shrapnel 6 has assessment of ex-RAF reputation and hiring prospects by an agent on Galatea:

"...Thing is, the RAF went down so hard and fast, it’s trouble to find outfits what want ’em. Even the ones what say they was a “Knight o’ the Sphere” get the stinkeye  nowadays. Anyway, if y’want some cheap cannon fodder, gimme a call. I got RAFfers up to the rafters. (guffaws at his joke)"

[Minemech]

 So why isn't the Free Worlds League, as the Successor State with full intel on what went on loaded with them? Even the Lyrans and Suns direly need them. This is not even getting into the Marians who may be the most desperate state in Battletech.

[Middcore]

If what you say is true, it appears that some of the writing staff needs to be reacquainted with the history of mercenary units in the Inner Sphere, particularly Wolf's Dragoons. There are currently a lot of powers in Battletech desperately starved for men and equipment, far more so than during that time.

Objectively, the Dragoons showing up with five regiments of troops and gear not seen in lifetimes and nobody asking questions is low-key one of the hardest-to-believe events in the BT canon.

[Minemech]

 For context on how the RAF folded, Alaric cleaned the collective clocks of the Marik-Stewart Commonwealth, the united Free Worlds League and the Lyran Commonwealth before invading the Republic again, all while battling it out on the Falcons. No one in that region of the Inner Sphere is going to be terribly stunned that the RAF was defeated by the Wolves. Furthermore, everyone knew the Republic was deep into disarmament when the blackout hit, they were not terribly quiet about it and kept only 2 borders fortified. Furthermore, everyone is aware that the Capellans are the superpower of the Inner Sphere, even 200something year old Redjack Ryan hiding under rocks knows.

[Arkansas Warrior]

So why isn't the Free Worlds League, as the Successor State with full intel on what went on loaded with them? Even the Lyrans and Suns direly need them. This is not even getting into the Marians who may be the most desperate state in Battletech.

Because knowing what happened overall tells you nothing about any individual.  The guy showing up to sign on May *claim* to have been made a Knightbin recent months, to have fought with honor against the Wolves before being captured, made a bondsman, and fighting against the Falcons.  You may even be able to verify through years-old rosters that someone by that name once served in the RAF. But is anything he’s telling you about his exploits true? Is he even who he says he is? Or is he a deserter who fled at the first opportunity, perhaps after adopting the name of an officer he saw killed?  How do you know about this guy who wants to sign on with you? Knowing the wolves won, even at the level of detail we get from the ilClan sourcebook, tells you almost nothing about individual soldiers.

[Minemech]

Because knowing what happened overall tells you nothing about any individual.  The guy showing up to sign on May *claim* to have been made a Knightbin recent months, to have fought with honor against the Wolves before being captured, made a bondsman, and fighting against the Falcons.  You may even be able to verify through years-old rosters that someone by that name once served in the RAF. But is anything he’s telling you about his exploits true? Is he even who he says he is? Or is he a deserter who fled at the first opportunity, perhaps after adopting the name of an officer he saw killed?  How do you know about this guy who wants to sign on with you? Knowing the wolves won, even at the level of detail we get from the ilClan sourcebook, tells you almost nothing about individual soldiers.

Mercenaries rarely sign on as individuals. If they want to join a Successor State military, there are steps to that and demonstrating that they are trained is but one. However being trained in the RAF and say the LCAF are very different things, and some extra training would be required. As for desertion, Clan Wolf would probably have killed them before their own power would have had a chance.

[Minemech]

I should note that anyone who would be able to make it through the strenuous debriefing process that they would have to undertake to sign up for another military after the fall of the Republic is unlikely to be exaggerating too much. They are a potential treasure trove of information as things are.
EDIT: And no, I am not implying any torture or imprisonment, I really mean a strenuous debriefing.

[Church14]

Shrapnel 6 has assessment of ex-RAF reputation and hiring prospects by an agent on Galatea:

"...Thing is, the RAF went down so hard and fast, it’s trouble to find outfits what want ’em. Even the ones what say they was a “Knight o’ the Sphere” get the stinkeye  nowadays. Anyway, if y’want some cheap cannon fodder, gimme a call. I got RAFfers up to the rafters. (guffaws at his joke)"

Written by the same guy who called Stone a Nazi and had an open ax to grind with the republic, who portrayed every RAF who didn’t join the wolves as a depressed drunk.

Yeah. Gonna just not bother with that story.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Mercenaries rarely sign on as individuals. If they want to join a Successor State military, there are steps to that and demonstrating that they are trained is but one. However being trained in the RAF and say the LCAF are very different things, and some extra training would be required. As for desertion, Clan Wolf would probably have killed them before their own power would have had a chance.

Most of the detail in my post is taken directly from the Shrapnel story Fire Scorpion IIC quoted above.  It follows three former RAF soldiers, one a Knight, the others veterans of the fighting on Terra (both for the RAF and for the Wolves against the Falcons), who escape to Galatea and try to become mercenaries.  That's pretty much the reaction they get: "You fought on Terra huh?  Yeah, that's what they all say.  Maybe you did, but we've got no way to verify it."  They eventually start their own unit instead.

[BrianDavion]

From the perspective of any Successor State, you want the Capellan Confederation to win the aerospace battle. You also want them to win the ground battle, though not decisively. You do not want this because you like the Confederation, you want this because the Confederation can be contained. By contrast Sea Fox behavior is already showing the fruits of ilClan contamination (As are the Ravens and the RD), and if allowed to continue, who knows what else it will affect.

 Othar could be turned into a more interesting character if this scenario plays out right, perhaps preserving the Clan and leading it not only to survival, elsewhere, but developing it into an even more interesting actor. I just do not know where he would move to.

yeah no, the cappies are at LEAST as much a threat as the wolves, what any other state WANTS is for them to slowly grind each other to pieces in a long protracted battle of attrition.

It wasn't a WOLF CLAN operative who assinsated Captian General Jessica Marik.
It wasn't the WOLF CLAN who occupied new sytris and executed the march lord of the capellan march on the steps of the palace.
It was THE CAPELLAN CONFEDERATION.

both the wolves and cappies are clear and present dangers to their neighbors

[bobthecoward]

yeah no, the cappies are at LEAST as much a threat as the wolves, what any other state WANTS is for them to slowly grind each other to pieces in a long protracted battle of attrition.

It wasn't a WOLF CLAN operative who assinsated Captian General Jessica Marik.
It wasn't the WOLF CLAN who occupied new sytris and executed the march lord of the capellan march on the steps of the palace.
It was THE CAPELLAN CONFEDERATION.

both the wolves and cappies are clear and present dangers to their neighbors

This is also why I think the alliance is the right move. Don't do the thing your enemies want you to do. If four house lords want you to attack Terra...don't do it

[Cannonshop]

This is also why I think the alliance is the right move. Don't do the thing your enemies want you to do. If four house lords want you to attack Terra...don't do it

Um, wrong.  See, on a pure power dynamics level? sure.  but on a character level, it's right up there with having Great Britain team up with 3rd Reich Germany against the Soviets in 1942.  That's how far out of character the proposed alliance is, or having,say, Australia side with the Japanese against the United States in 1941.  The similarities of society plus what differences are present, make them natural enemies, not allies.  Both Clan and Capellan society are built around a type of revolutionary dogma that doesn't tolerate other cultures, because their system doesn't function that way.

Because it literally can't.  this is teh same reason that things never warmed up between the CapCon and the Republic-both were absolutely personality cults imitating functional states, but the Cappies had the bureaucratic structure to actually make it work....and the Clanners really don't.  The Wolves 'used up' their occupation zone, but that's not because they ran out of resources, it's because they ran out of resources that their central planning society could tolerate.  That's a major difference right there, and why they took Melissa's deal to invade the FWL for fresh sources-they can't innovate outisde of refining weapons tech, because that literally endangers their entire social structure.

There just isn't enough flex in the Clan system to accept Capellan ideas, and not enough room in Cappie thinking to accept and live under Clanner rules-even though those rules are similar.

[bobthecoward]

Um, wrong.  See, on a pure power dynamics level? sure.  but on a character level, it's right up there with having Great Britain team up with 3rd Reich Germany against the Soviets in 1942. 

Then it isn't wrong what I wrote. You just think it isn't feasible (and I didn't say it was feasible in the post I wrote).

[Minemech]

Most of the detail in my post is taken directly from the Shrapnel story Fire Scorpion IIC quoted above.  It follows three former RAF soldiers, one a Knight, the others veterans of the fighting on Terra (both for the RAF and for the Wolves against the Falcons), who escape to Galatea and try to become mercenaries.  That's pretty much the reaction they get: "You fought on Terra huh?  Yeah, that's what they all say.  Maybe you did, but we've got no way to verify it."  They eventually start their own unit instead.

I have to catch up on my reading which is months out of date (I am being kind). Star Lord pointed out that established mercenary units are highly untrusting. This is due in part to the fact that Successor States and other entities try to infiltrate them. However, it did show an example where during the interview process they got a mechwarrior to spill his guts on his motivation and then accepted him. I am surprised that they would not take an ex-RAF since they take Hero Academy and its equivalents. A typical mercenary unit might not be able to perform the level of debriefing that a state might, but plenty should be able to do well enough.

[Caesar Steiner for Archon]

Foxes are going to be walking very fine line once SLDF stand up.   Their essentially managing the mercenary trade.

This is Battletech, mercenary game play is just about life blood of game itself.  Somehow, CGL will guide mercenaries through working with or against the Clan SLDF.  Foxes I think it will be the key, but will be able stay neutral or they'll be as neutral as ComStar?

There's nothing that says your players can't behave like idiots. The problem is already solved, and they can't say you're being an antagonistic DM because they already knew what was going to happen by signing up with the wolves.

[Spirit Cat Refugee]

I thought Empire Alone ended up with the FWLM launching an invasion of the Wolf Empire.

Also, I could see a Capellan/FWL anti-Clan alliance more if and when Danai takes over for Daoshen. She and Nikol Marik are friends (as much as two people in their positions can be) and would be much more inclined to ally against the Wolves.

They were friends, at the end of Principles of Desolation Danai felt betrayed by Nikol and was much more wary of her.

Furthermore, it's hard to tell what Nikol will do if Danai takes over the CC from Daoshen. Right now the CC is hostile to every state on their border except for Canopus, because militarily they can be. A new leader taking over might not mean the bureacracies and space-strategy of the state will change.