Author Topic: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?  (Read 12469 times)

Gaiiten

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #120 on: 14 January 2024, 07:36:46 »
Or maybe the annihilation of the last, the final adversery of the new ilClan/3rd Star League.
Coud even be the Home Clans  :sad:
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Nerroth

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #121 on: 14 January 2024, 12:44:05 »
I would be quite disappointed if, after waiting all this time for a post-Reaving update on the Homeworld Clans, they were to show up only to get written out of the setting.

Although, I suspect that the "Last Annihilation" - which at this point deserves to have its own speculation thread somewhere on the boards - could be something altogether more personal. Note how the rumour regarding the death of Devlin Stone was reflected on by Spurlock Conners in the IlClan sourcebook: if the truth about what happened were to get out, it could lead to trouble for Chance Vickers, and/or for Alaric himself.

In which case, the question might well be: which if the two is more liable to turn on the other first?

Jazzhands Licker

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #122 on: 14 January 2024, 15:18:11 »
Although I've been around since the Dark Age of 2002, I haven't really gotten into the lore.  So, if I were to base my speculation on conversations I've had with fans on Reddit and Discord, my speculation would be that either the Clans entirely take over, or House Davion does, and everyone is very happy that that power took over, and everyone holds hands and sings songs.  They also abandon their cultures and completely assimilate into the culture of Clans/Davion.

I'm not sure that's realistic, or that's even supported, however.  Nor do I think that would happen in 20 years as is the topic of this thread.

Since I'm still ignorant (I'm only now on the Clan Invasion as far as literature goes), and I can only make guesses based on a point of view that's both ignorant and biased, so I'll go back to lurking.

(As far as the Great Annihilation, perhaps it's just the annihilation not of any Clans, but for Clan culture.  They've been rubber-stamping marriages, people are making money, no one's declared a Batchall in 30 years, and worst yet, people say "I'm".  So with a stroke of the pen, all the Clans just purge the 'Clan' stuff from the laws, since they weren't being used much anyway.)

Metallgewitter

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #123 on: 15 January 2024, 04:05:14 »
We have already examples of clans trying to settle into the IS. The Bears and Ravens being the biggest and most detailed one. And they are polar popposites: the Besrs try to embrace the ethnic population but goes through several grwoing pains while the Ravens basically took over and keep the majority of the Alliance as is. We have seen glimpses of what the Wolves did with their Empire (forcing businesses into their Clan structure, basically conscripting fitting people into the touman at gunpoint, shutting down social programs) which in turns might lead to freeborn rise into the power structure and then wreaking havoc within it. The Wolves are now more or less isolated on Terra the most populous planet in the IS so they will have to go through several growing pains quickly and this might "annihilate" the thing that makes them Clan. After all if Alaric begins recruiting huge numbers of Terrans into his ranks the touman might soon turn freeborn quickly. Especially with the coming wars and each dead "true" Clanner can't be replaced quickly he might end with a Clan where trueborns are a real minority and more and more decisions are made by freeborns.

Wrangler

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #124 on: 15 January 2024, 09:29:22 »
Sounds like the Dominion's leadership was shanghaied by it's new leader, but more Clan than man of the people.  People in general will have no say in the future, as Trueborns "elitists" steer the Dominion to Clan League.
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CJC070

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #125 on: 15 January 2024, 10:28:52 »
Sounds like the Dominion's leadership was shanghaied by it's new leader, but more Clan than man of the people.  People in general will have no say in the future, as Trueborns "elitists" steer the Dominion to Clan League.

From Dominion Divided I got the impression that it was fairly balanced.  Even fringe groups that the Wolves or Falcons would not hesitate to crush were allowed to exist.  Provided they didn’t hurt  or kill anyone. 
Yes the vote to join the Third Star League created tensions but the Ghost Bear Dominion seems far more democratic and open than even the Inner Sphere societies.

Church14

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #126 on: 15 January 2024, 10:43:20 »
Sounds like the Dominion's leadership was shanghaied by it's new leader, but more Clan than man of the people.  People in general will have no say in the future, as Trueborns "elitists" steer the Dominion to Clan League.

Except that DD doesn’t say that.

Page 99
That’s not to say that people can’t yet be swayed from one side to the other . The winds of public opinion could shift unexpectedly at any moment due to scandal, victory, or defeat on the Combine front.

The future seems to hold some form of understanding between the Star League and the Rasalhague Dominion . For the famously isolationist Dominion, the certainty of foreign entanglements is an uncomfortable prospect.


If the short victorious war with the combine isn’t all of those adjectives, RasDom could easily slide into opposition to the ilclan as Joiners look like warmongering fools.

The same page also has the bits about they wouldn’t think to go to war with Alaric because the touman wouldn’t stand for it, which is… baffling nonsense given that clan warriors have always been loyal to the clan above all else, even if todays enemies were yesterday’s allies. It ‘s also a nonsense line given that a lot of RasDom would probably have shifted from “stay out of it” to “screw the ilclan” given the giant mess the joiners made of things.

Also, something major to remember is that even if leaders steer the RasDom in favor of the ilclan, Alaric won’t take them. He wants Clan Ghost Bear, not the Rasalhague Dominion. Clan Ghost Bear is gone.

Metallgewitter

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #127 on: 15 January 2024, 16:36:08 »
Not to mention: in Dominion divided there is a small mention that actually occupying Combine Planets with huge swaths of loyal Combine citizens would actually shake the Dominion and it's "democracy" to the core. After all fully indoctrinated Kuritans aren't particular keen on joining another nation especially when there is the propect of being liberated shoirtly thereafter. Nobody wants to be seen as a traitor. So who is to say that a Kurita friendly party forms among the Dominion's council wicho could sow chaos among the ranks. Plus all the hints given is that the Dominion will get it's nose bloodied by the Combine. After all Yori needs to show her people that she is the strong leader that not only declawed the Cats but also conquered New Avalon. So she MUST bring the Bears who again attacked like cowards to heel. Something her predecessors never managed. Though I expect the Combine to loose a few planets along the way but the Bears will be swamped instead of earning a quick and decisive victory

Retry

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #128 on: 15 January 2024, 17:17:13 »
and what if it turns out your favorite faction is the target of the final annialation? Every faction is someone's favorite  no faction getting erased is a good idea..
My favorite was already annihilated.  I'm not against the idea of destruction of factions, including my favorite, but in this case I found their death uncompelling in its execution (ba dum tsh).

At least the Clave seems intriguing.  I hope they show up in more than just that one short story- and ideally not as just a chew toy for Alaric to annihilate.

BrianDavion

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ??
« Reply #129 on: 16 January 2024, 01:02:05 »
I would add to that: the Dragoons only needed a place in the League to reactivate their dormant "In  times of being hunted hide here" plan. We know that the Dragoons have several contingency plans that were created over a century ago and they simply dust them of. Like the Republic dusted of "Fortress Republic" though on a way lower scale. The first attacks of the Dragoons were simply retaliatory with thew main goal of getting new bodiues and material to fill out the huge holes in their TOE. The assaults for Tamarind were for one gasininmg cash as well as putting the newly build up Zeta Battalion through their paces. Which in turn serves as a measure to build up a complete new regiment (Epsilon) as well as other assetts. Right now the Dragoons have roughly 2 Regiments worth of troops (a 2 batt Epsilon, the Wolfgbane and Tarantula striker units and Zeta battalion) I would say they somehow managed to regain a modicum of strength but as poinmted nout in Redemption Rites they profit from plans and investmenets made a century ago.

I'd argue that this should be more common with the big multi regimental merc units, having money and resources squirrreled away as a hdge agaisnt disaster. Hell the Erinadi Light Horse ALSO had this, they just had those resources locked up in court for a century until houses Davion and Steiner cooperated to re-activate the ELH (and you can bet that even though the ELH is working for the feddies right now the Lyrans are set to gain something from this_
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Jellico

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #130 on: 16 January 2024, 06:55:07 »

The same page also has the bits about they wouldn’t think to go to war with Alaric because the touman wouldn’t stand for it, which is… baffling nonsense given that clan warriors have always been loyal to the clan above all else, even if todays enemies were yesterday’s allies. It ‘s also a nonsense line given that a lot of RasDom would probably have shifted from “stay out of it” to “screw the ilclan” given the giant mess the joiners made of things.

What is so hard to understand? The ilKhan is an established Clan position.  Likewise the Hidden Hope doctrine has been a point of debate for centuries. The rise of an ilClan is a huge crisis of belief for anyone considering themselves Clan.
Like it or not, the Dominion touman is a Clan organisation. Its members have to decide how to resolve that with their personal beliefs. Reject the ilKhan? Follow through ilKhan? Follow their Clan's lead?
This is pretty normal Clan behaviour. Eg warriors volunteering for Harvest Trials against orders for the chance to see the Inner Sphere. They aren't automatons.

As for the rest of the Dominion? The whole book is full of reasons for and against. Let's say people can be quite obstinate having made a choice.

Gaiiten

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #131 on: 16 January 2024, 08:20:36 »
Maybe a new caste will be created?
I have to think of the Capellan Confederation and its caste system, especially the Directorship caste comes into my mind.
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Minemech

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #132 on: 16 January 2024, 09:10:20 »
From Dominion Divided I got the impression that it was fairly balanced.  Even fringe groups that the Wolves or Falcons would not hesitate to crush were allowed to exist.  Provided they didn’t hurt  or kill anyone. 
Yes the vote to join the Third Star League created tensions but the Ghost Bear Dominion seems far more democratic and open than even the Inner Sphere societies.
You need to think of the RD more in terms of consociationalism than Clan or anything else. It works because all sides want it to.

Wrangler

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #133 on: 17 January 2024, 16:17:43 »
Maybe a new caste will be created?
I have to think of the Capellan Confederation and its caste system, especially the Directorship caste comes into my mind.
Warriors won't like that, there already nobility caste aka the Directorship didn't earn their place they inherited it
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BrianDavion

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #134 on: 18 January 2024, 00:21:19 »
What is so hard to understand? The ilKhan is an established Clan position.  Likewise the Hidden Hope doctrine has been a point of debate for centuries. The rise of an ilClan is a huge crisis of belief for anyone considering themselves Clan.
Like it or not, the Dominion touman is a Clan organisation. Its members have to decide how to resolve that with their personal beliefs. Reject the ilKhan? Follow through ilKhan? Follow their Clan's lead?
This is pretty normal Clan behaviour. Eg warriors volunteering for Harvest Trials against orders for the chance to see the Inner Sphere. They aren't automatons.

As for the rest of the Dominion? The whole book is full of reasons for and against. Let's say people can be quite obstinate having made a choice.

I really think part of the problem with DD was with info about the RD being so bloody scant and sometimes contridictory there was a lot of "commonly accepted head canon" that got in the way
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Orwell84

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #135 on: 18 January 2024, 02:17:39 »
I really think part of the problem with DD was with info about the RD being so bloody scant and sometimes contridictory there was a lot of "commonly accepted head canon" that got in the way

100%. It's why I was willing to accept contradictions with previous material as being in-universe errors or just outright retcons. Problems and all, the RasDom portion is still one of my favourite BT books of recent vintage, although maybe having a contentious referendum in my own country when it was released might have played a role in that.

As to where the RasDom will be in 20 years... hell, it could go anywhere from fragmentation to stability and gradual growth again to being a major power in the brave new Sphere. Obviously I'd prefer the latter - with Bear boots on Luthien at some point - but think it'll be more like options 1 or 2.
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BrianDavion

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #136 on: 18 January 2024, 03:44:45 »
100%. It's why I was willing to accept contradictions with previous material as being in-universe errors or just outright retcons. Problems and all, the RasDom portion is still one of my favourite BT books of recent vintage, although maybe having a contentious referendum in my own country when it was released might have played a role in that.

As to where the RasDom will be in 20 years... hell, it could go anywhere from fragmentation to stability and gradual growth again to being a major power in the brave new Sphere. Obviously I'd prefer the latter - with Bear boots on Luthien at some point - but think it'll be more like options 1 or 2.

I'd rather not see another capitol occupied, New Avalon was a "big shock" but if they over do it it becomes "meh"
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Minemech

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #137 on: 18 January 2024, 08:56:23 »
 I would not say that the Dominion was ever truly a major power, rather it was an emerging power. Emerging powers can defeat major powers, but they still are not major powers. It certainly has had outsized influence in that its decision to enter Stone's disarmament program embarrassed other powers.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #138 on: 18 January 2024, 11:46:14 »

The problem with the RasDom treatment in DD is that it was too much tell and not enough show, especially for changes that were inconsistent with what we were last told in the canon about the factions that created the RasDom.

Until DD, the Bears were always characterized as an insular faction that didn’t pay much attention to or get involved in the affairs of other factions.  And when the Bears did get involved, they were extremely reluctant and slow to do so.  It literally took attacks on warships at the Bear capital or the threat of Bear annihilation by association with the Not-Named Clan being revealed to stir the sleeping Bears to action.  It was cuddling with the Bear family first, everything else was way down the list of priorities.

In DD, the Bears suddenly care about foreign affairs, which is totally out of character for insular Bears, regarding events on Terra that don’t involve them, and so much so that they rush headlong into an ill-planned vote, which is also out of character for the slow-to-act Bears.  Factions can change and sometimes need to for the plot.  But we should have been shown the Bears changing before DD.  Or DD should at least have provided a sidebar or two on how the Bears had changed since the last time we saw them.  Factions shouldn’t become polar opposites of their previous characterizations without explanation.

Same goes for the Rasalhagians.  They were a people who had freed themselves of centuries under the Combine yoke and who were willing to ally with an alien Clan power to maintain their hard-won independence.  And suddenly a majority or near-majority of Rasalhagians vote to subvert their independence to a foreign entity on faraway Terra?  When the Rasalhagians have nothing invested in old Clan prophecies that give that entity what little authority it does have?  Because some Rasalhagians actually belong to sub-factions that we’ve never been introduced to?  It’s just poor storytelling.  To much telling us that a faction is suddenly very different than how it used to be portrayed without showing us why and how it had gotten to that point.

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nova_dew

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #139 on: 18 January 2024, 12:51:45 »
The problem with the RasDom treatment in DD is that it was too much tell and not enough show, especially for changes that were inconsistent with what we were last told in the canon about the factions that created the RasDom.

Until DD, the Bears were always characterized as an insular faction that didn’t pay much attention to or get involved in the affairs of other factions.  And when the Bears did get involved, they were extremely reluctant and slow to do so.  It literally took attacks on warships at the Bear capital or the threat of Bear annihilation by association with the Not-Named Clan being revealed to stir the sleeping Bears to action.  It was cuddling with the Bear family first, everything else was way down the list of priorities.

In DD, the Bears suddenly care about foreign affairs, which is totally out of character for insular Bears, regarding events on Terra that don’t involve them, and so much so that they rush headlong into an ill-planned vote, which is also out of character for the slow-to-act Bears.  Factions can change and sometimes need to for the plot.  But we should have been shown the Bears changing before DD.  Or DD should at least have provided a sidebar or two on how the Bears had changed since the last time we saw them.  Factions shouldn’t become polar opposites of their previous characterizations without explanation.

Same goes for the Rasalhagians.  They were a people who had freed themselves of centuries under the Combine yoke and who were willing to ally with an alien Clan power to maintain their hard-won independence.  And suddenly a majority or near-majority of Rasalhagians vote to subvert their independence to a foreign entity on faraway Terra?  When the Rasalhagians have nothing invested in old Clan prophecies that give that entity what little authority it does have?  Because some Rasalhagians actually belong to sub-factions that we’ve never been introduced to?  It’s just poor storytelling.  To much telling us that a faction is suddenly very different than how it used to be portrayed without showing us why and how it had gotten to that point.

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This, at some point it would be nice if TPTB go back and fill in some of the blanks, a series of books/novels that cover what/how/when things happened and why, they can link it in with the Cats annihilation that they want to cover in better detail too, flesh out two factions better, because if being pulled into that by the Black Dragons twice didn't have something to do with the Dominion deciding to pay attention to other states goings on I don't know what will 
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Geg

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #140 on: 18 January 2024, 13:24:33 »
I really think part of the problem with DD was with info about the RD being so bloody scant and sometimes contridictory there was a lot of "commonly accepted head canon" that got in the way

I feel like people don't appreciate how dynamic and active the Bears and the FRRians were in century or so since the independence of the FRR and the rise of the ilClan.
  • The FRR won their independence
  • They Invaded the Inner Sphere
  • They Switched from Crusader to Warden
  • They Migrated to the Inner Sphere (mostly in secret)
  • They Jihaded with the Inner Sphere
  • They Merged with the FRR
  • They warred with the Combine Twice

Most factions at most get in a couple of wars, but here are the Bears and the FRR establishing a brand new political order in the most turbulent century since the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars.   

I don't think that process is complete.   For me the RD that emerges from the mists in 20 years time  is going to have is going to look  even more different.  How their identity evolves with their embrace or rejection of the 3rd League, and their (expected) humbling at the hands of the combine.

Church14

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #141 on: 18 January 2024, 15:18:44 »
  • The FRR won their independence (before clan invasion)
  • They Invaded the Inner Sphere(3050]
  • They Switched from Crusader to Warden
  • They Migrated to the Inner Sphere (mostly in secret)(3055-3060)
  • They Jihaded with the Inner Sphere (3070)
  • They Merged with the FRR
  • They warred with the Combine Twice(3070, 3100)

Yeah, a lot happened. But essentially all of what was on page was pre-3070. The rest pre-3110. That said, Republic era being off screen is a problem everyone had. But there’s a long gap between “we merged, it totally worked” and DD. For me DD felt weird mostly because it’s supposed to be a hybrid nation, but clan culture dominates over 90% of it. If clan culture wasn’t so dominant, the vote would’ve been an absolute blowout against joining.
« Last Edit: 18 January 2024, 15:21:05 by Church14 »

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #142 on: 18 January 2024, 15:59:09 »
I feel like people don't appreciate how dynamic and active the Bears and the FRRians were in century or so since the independence of the FRR and the rise of the ilClan.
  • The FRR won their independence
  • They Invaded the Inner Sphere
  • They Switched from Crusader to Warden
  • They Migrated to the Inner Sphere (mostly in secret)
  • They Jihaded with the Inner Sphere
  • They Merged with the FRR
  • They warred with the Combine Twice

Most factions at most get in a couple of wars, but here are the Bears and the FRR establishing a brand new political order in the most turbulent century since the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars.   

I don't think that process is complete.   For me the RD that emerges from the mists in 20 years time  is going to have is going to look  even more different.  How their identity evolves with their embrace or rejection of the 3rd League, and their (expected) humbling at the hands of the combine.

The problem is that you can easily CRTL-H 'They' with 'The Bears' in six of those seven examples. Which is the problem with the Dominion. The faction could be called the Ghost Bear Empire for all intents and purposes.

No matter what way we might spin it, the Bears have always been the singular focus, with everything else subordinated to that end. Yeah, I can see Rasalhagians buying into a Star League, for a myriad of reasons, but not an ilClan, not even in a hundred years, and I certainly can't see them massacring each other for the pleasure of a choice between clutching the apron strings of either the Bears or Wolves. Everything in Dominion lore is viewed through a Clan lens, in terms of writing and in-universe perspective, overwhelmingly, despite the pretension to the contrary. Just one example; there are sources in DD that talk in mouth-watering detail about potentially conquering strictly IS targets; Luthien, Terra, Tharkad, the Tamar powers: all in character for a Clan faction. The one power that Rasalhague might have any revanchist interest in attacking? The Bear's clan friends; the Horses.

There's nothing terribly dynamic about what we have in that corner of the IS at the moment, it's the most unchanged region now that the Falcon OZ has fractured, and getting a humbling from the Combine, losing combat strength in this-and-that Galaxy, before going back to quiet self-reflection, empire-building, mulling over whether or not to engage with the rest of the setting, isn't going to improve things.

We've had the RasDom since 2003; we've already had our 20 years in real time. Instead of trodding over old ground, backfilling on something that's never met expectations, couldn't we spend the potential of ilClan on something new? Have the Dominion smashed, torn apart, have the out-of-touch Bear elites (who are wondering how and where all this unexpected violence came from) realise that this wasn't the love affair they had imagined it to be, but a business relationship that has run it's course now. Have the Ghost Bears re-establishing a polity out of the former Vega Province, getting a second chance with the more appreciative Vegans and their own Freeminder brethren. Let an independent Rasalhague re-assert and reposition itself against the ascendant Horses, make new alliances, do things outside of being a part of the Bear's little fiefdom. Have both factions get their own focus, instead of this Frankenstein approach that purports to give equal concern, and fails.

Have either/neither or both of them seperately ally, or makes deals with, the 3rd Star League, or it's opposition; whatever works for the meta story.

I feel that there are a lot more involving stories in a conflict-driven direction like that, rather than another slow dirge towards a friendlier, cuddlier Dominion, and the 4th Dominion-Combine war.
 
The current direction just feels like a relentless and plodding frogmarch towards turning Rasalhague into a monument to the eternal glory of Clan Ghost Bear.

Metallgewitter

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #143 on: 19 January 2024, 04:36:33 »
  • The FRR won their independence (before clan invasion)
  • They Invaded the Inner Sphere(3050]
  • They Switched from Crusader to Warden
  • They Migrated to the Inner Sphere (mostly in secret)(3055-3060)
  • They Jihaded with the Inner Sphere (3070)
  • They Merged with the FRR
  • They warred with the Combine Twice(3070, 3100)

Yeah, a lot happened. But essentially all of what was on page was pre-3070. The rest pre-3110. That said, Republic era being off screen is a problem everyone had. But there’s a long gap between “we merged, it totally worked” and DD. For me DD felt weird mostly because it’s supposed to be a hybrid nation, but clan culture dominates over 90% of it. If clan culture wasn’t so dominant, the vote would’ve been an absolute blowout against joining.

They only hint we got how the Rasalhagians and Bears scomewhat conflicted was in the Brush War sourcebook for the Republic era. When the Second Combine-Dominion war hit the Rasalhagians became more belligerent with their benevolent overlords because they commited serious war crimes which in turn led to widespread protests and then gave the elected Prince more political power and also somewhat limited the Clan Khan's power. This was a "patch up" but after the war the Dominion became more or less silent with the only other flare up the final rooting out of the old Motstand movement and the dumping of the Freeminders in the Vega Province (only to absorb them a bit later) This can be seen as a "We decided to remove the problem withour really adressing it" which then blew up in their face for the 1st "Join the League" vote. Right now the Dominion seems to be patched up again but could also break apart should the envisioned "quick war" against the Combine go south. And my bet is it will go south.

Cannonshop

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #144 on: 19 January 2024, 09:05:49 »
ah gawd, this again.

Whatever The Plot Requires.

keep that in mind, when you're trying to make sense of anything in this setting-characters bend to fit whatever plot was decided, the limited presence of any continuity is more or less an artifact.  Your faction (whatever faction it is) will do whatever the Lead Developer says it will do, full stop.

even if it's 180 degrees from all prior characterizations, requires rewriting the in-game physics engine to make it possible, or is blatantly pushed from outside.

Whatever the chosen plot says a faction, character, or other element of the setting is going to do (or have happen) is what is going to happen. 
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

CJC070

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in
« Reply #145 on: 19 January 2024, 09:20:12 »
ah gawd, this again.

Whatever The Plot Requires.

keep that in mind, when you're trying to make sense of anything in this setting-characters bend to fit whatever plot was decided, the limited presence of any continuity is more or less an artifact.  Your faction (whatever faction it is) will do whatever the Lead Developer says it will do, full stop.

even if it's 180 degrees from all prior characterizations, requires rewriting the in-game physics engine to make it possible, or is blatantly pushed from outside.

Whatever the chosen plot says a faction, character, or other element of the setting is going to do (or have happen) is what is going to happen.

Agreed but forums like this help us talk about what we want to see and not pestering writers and developers insistently about what happens next.  And as long as we keep it PG let us speculate and air out our grievances (real and imagined) and ultimately Battletech will be a safe environment to play in.

BrianDavion

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #146 on: 19 January 2024, 16:03:15 »
The problem with the RasDom treatment in DD is that it was too much tell and not enough show, especially for changes that were inconsistent with what we were last told in the canon about the factions that created the RasDom.

Until DD, the Bears were always characterized as an insular faction that didn’t pay much attention to or get involved in the affairs of other factions.  And when the Bears did get involved, they were extremely reluctant and slow to do so.  It literally took attacks on warships at the Bear capital or the threat of Bear annihilation by association with the Not-Named Clan being revealed to stir the sleeping Bears to action.  It was cuddling with the Bear family first, everything else was way down the list of priorities.

In DD, the Bears suddenly care about foreign affairs, which is totally out of character for insular Bears, regarding events on Terra that don’t involve them, and so much so that they rush headlong into an ill-planned vote, which is also out of character for the slow-to-act Bears.  Factions can change and sometimes need to for the plot.  But we should have been shown the Bears changing before DD.  Or DD should at least have provided a sidebar or two on how the Bears had changed since the last time we saw them.  Factions shouldn’t become polar opposites of their previous characterizations without explanation.

Same goes for the Rasalhagians.  They were a people who had freed themselves of centuries under the Combine yoke and who were willing to ally with an alien Clan power to maintain their hard-won independence.  And suddenly a majority or near-majority of Rasalhagians vote to subvert their independence to a foreign entity on faraway Terra?  When the Rasalhagians have nothing invested in old Clan prophecies that give that entity what little authority it does have?  Because some Rasalhagians actually belong to sub-factions that we’ve never been introduced to?  It’s just poor storytelling.  To much telling us that a faction is suddenly very different than how it used to be portrayed without showing us why and how it had gotten to that point.

My 2 Kerenskies... YMMV... FWIW.

it's been a century, or more since much of that happened, and MANY factions have during the time period between the "FASA era" and the dark ages undergone some major shifts.
I mean just among the clans the jade falcons changed considerably, the snow ravens have likewise undergone some pretty signfcigent changes, even major changes have rocked the great houses, the CAPELLANS are the strongest house right now for god's sake!

To use some historical comparisons as well, since you want to use the insularity example, in 1924 the USA was still largely isolationist, prefering to stay out of the "affairs of europe" in 2024 the US is DEEPLY entrenched in world affairs. consider how Japan as a nation has changed from 1924 to 2024, things are radically differant. A century is several generations, that's eneugh time for the character of a nation to change considerably.
The Suns will shine again

Jellico

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #147 on: 19 January 2024, 17:49:20 »
We are shown and not told all the time. We are told the Ghost Bears are insular. The first time we see them they are taking part in Revival and have been aggressively pushing in Clan politics for invasion since the Dragoon Compromise. The Bears seem to be aware of what is going on around them, and unless their paw is forced, choose to be involved when they want to be involved.
We are told Rasalhagians are rebels always resisting the Draconis Combine. Such rebels they literally saved the Kurita dynasty. For the most part they get rich and fat. Look how Rasalhague expanded under the Combine wing. Like everything in BT about half a dozen people have agency and drive everyone else. It is notable it is the threat of the Fed Com that caused the FRR, not the resistance.

DD looks at the little people in a way few BT books do. It talks about people who had to exist but didn't get the spotlight.  It talks about new organisations because they are new. Why drag up Motstand or Motpart again? New problems require new solutions.

Motpart

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #148 on: 20 January 2024, 17:10:49 »
We are told Rasalhagians are rebels always resisting the Draconis Combine. Such rebels they literally saved the Kurita dynasty. For the most part they get rich and fat. Look how Rasalhague expanded under the Combine wing. Like everything in BT about half a dozen people have agency and drive everyone else. It is notable it is the threat of the Fed Com that caused the FRR, not the resistance.

Yeah, they're rebellious. This is a consistent strain in the character of Rasalhague from 1987's House Kurita (The Draconis Combine) onwards. They've also had an interesting history with the Combine, with good times and bad times. Perks, benefits, concessions on one hand; restrictions, hegemony, purges on the other. This set-up spanned over more than 700 years, and this rebellious nationalist strain along with it. All it shows is that the Bears aren't an exceptional case when it comes to empire-building; the Combine jumped through the same hoops centuries ago, for centuries, successfully, and ultimately failed, while Rasalhague reaped the rewards and kept their parochial nationalist interests at heart. This has happened in history time and time again. Why wouldn't, or couldn't, this happen to Clan Ghost Bear, given the right circumstances?

It might be narratively convenient for Clan Ghost Bear, to characterise Rasalhagians as simple, lascivious spheroid weathervanes, to be guided by betters with actual principles that matter; but there is an underlying national identity that exceeds the 'sheep to be sheared' attitude of many Spheroid societies.

This is why the Dominion fails, whilst being given the luxury in print of telling itself 'this works'.

Ghost Bear principles are forefront, embedded, sacrosanct. Foundational. The main characters.
Rasalhague principles are background, malleable, ephemeral. Opportunistically referenced, often ignored. Should be grateful to be here.

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DD looks at the little people in a way few BT books do. It talks about people who had to exist but didn't get the spotlight.  It talks about new organisations because they are new.

Whilst that look at the little people was definitely appreciated; for the most part they're provided with a selective weathervane outlook, a small Overton window, in which acceptable opinion is couched in Bear-friendly terms of 'On a scale of Bear to Wolf; how willing are you to report your neighbour to the Watch, for the glory of the ilClan?'. The newspaper clips alone read like state media from the Bear homeworlds. Outside of that small window, everything else is an extremist position for the Ghost Bear quartet, the paragon protagonists, to clutch their pearls at. Meanwhile the Ghost Bear touman gets to old-fashioned, uniform Clan bloodletting over small differences.

I did like a lot of the spotlight on some of the 'little people' and their new organisations, some good and well-thought-out reasons for and against, but their arcs are conveniently wrapped up in just enough time to ensure no lasting political harm or consequences come to Clan Ghost Bear. It feels like they were introduced to infuse a false sense of jeopardy before putting them back in their boxes. I'd rather that potential was explored.

A lot of Dominions Divided feels like making drama out of shifting deck chairs on the Titanic, with an impending iceberg (Luthien) approaching, with a lot of narrative potential, that, on present course, is just going to scrape the paint and move on, the ship simply thankful for the terror to have passed before going back to business as usual.

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Why drag up Motstand or Motpart again? New problems require new solutions.

Why single out these two organisations, when no-one brought them up? I'd like to see more new organisations and players in this space; Vårt Land has potential. Is it, to be blunt (not intended to be disrespectful), that ultimately, having real tangible Rasalhagian political opposition to Clan Ghost Bear, in general, isn't in your interest, as a long-time Ghost Bear fan?

The way I read this is; you'd rather contend with 'new problems' of 'independence' from Clan Wolf's Star League, because that's something more acceptable to the Ghost Bear wheelhouse, with prescribed 'new solutions' that carry no narrative threat to Clan Ghost Bear, ultimately.

After these two literal decades of listlessness in the franchise, when we're already seeing so much change in the setting, in Tamar Rising, Empire Alone, and presumably IlKhan's Eyes Only in the future; Dominions Divided feels like (please, forgive me) a few seconds onward from a freezeframe of the 2000's, purposefully. DD does provide a lot of potential threads for a new dynamic playground, but it feels like they're at risk of never coming into play, because of an outlook that comes down to; this is the Bear's sandbox, for Bears.

Geg

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Re: ilClan speculations and ideas 20 years in ?
« Reply #149 on: 20 January 2024, 19:24:17 »
There is a whole other thread that is pretty much dedicated to hashing out the Bears relationship with DD in 3151/2.

Any chance we can keep this conversation focused on the 20 year time frame?


 

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