"Fa Sure" Battle Armor?

[MadCapellan]

Yeah, the Gun is a death trap. Putting battle armor on it just four more bodies on the coffin, I'm afraid. Not impressed.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Gun has a problem that can be said of very few mechs: it's got too much firepower.  Unlike most 20 tonners, especially ones that are purely built out of Inner Sphere tech, it's got enough weaponry to be dangerous and consequently worth prioritizing for early destruction, unlike a Hornet or Stinger.

[MadCapellan]

There's something really incongruent about people saying the Fa Shih doesn't have enough armor at 7 points but being fine with the Gùn having only 7 on it's center torso. It's far too slow & easy to hit, pathetically armored and has weapons just begging to be eliminated. An LCT-7V Locust is better armored & even faster with a point of Fa Shih stuck to it than a Gùn is normally. I don't really know what a Gùn is even good for except torching conventional infantry and setting fire to buildings.

[MarauderD]

There's something really incongruent about people saying the Fa Shih doesn't have enough armor at 7 points but being fine with the Gùn having only 7 on it's center torso. It's far too slow & easy to hit, pathetically armored and has weapons just begging to be eliminated. An LCT-7V Locust is better armored & even faster with a point of Fa Shih stuck to it than a Gùn is normally. I don't really know what a Gùn is even good for except torching conventional infantry and setting fire to buildings.

I'm getting off topic--but the Gun is a cheap BV wise battle taxi for Amazon/Ying Long suits.  Not to mention it can support them against other BA with the Plasma Rifle variant.  All theorycrafting here, since I haven't played with BA as the CCAF in ages.  But I can see some utility for the Gun to transport clamp-less BA to the front, and then support them against vehicles and other BA.  I'm not contending that it should go head to head against other mechs, for example!

[theothersarah]

I like the Gùn because it's a cheap way to get a heavy PPC, but for an actual Capellan/Canopian BA taxi I like the Strider. It's faster, more durable, and not much more expensive. I wish it had a version with Angel and Bloodhound because I like to play with the TacOps Active Probe Targeting/ECCM/Ghost Targets rules - the Gùn has a setup with those but the rest of the package is lacking even compared to the average Strider.

I prefer the Strider D and its TAG, BAP, and C3S (and the ability to share the BAP targeting benefit over C3) plus accurate pairs of MPL and Streak 2s. Not the most spectacular setup, but it offers a good spread of utility for spotting and close-in support.

edit: If you're not playing by the strict 3150 IlClan list, the Owens F is probably even better. For some reason the Capellans gave it up after Late Republic and the Canopians never used it, but TAG, BAP, C3S, ECM, an LPPC, a couple of ERSLAS, and TCOMP is probably about the best you can do with that chassis and probably close to the best you can do for a stock IS BA taxi.

[Retry]

There's something really incongruent about people saying the Fa Shih doesn't have enough armor at 7 points but being fine with the Gùn having only 7 on it's center torso. It's far too slow & easy to hit, pathetically armored and has weapons just begging to be eliminated. An LCT-7V Locust is better armored & even faster with a point of Fa Shih stuck to it than a Gùn is normally. I don't really know what a Gùn is even good for except torching conventional infantry and setting fire to buildings.

Fa Shih are armored infantry, Gùns are Battlemechs.

In a similar manner, Great Turtles have an effective 92 standard scale armor on their center torsos, which is amazing for any Battlemech, but I'd be less than impressed if I had to use a Warship with similar protection on the nose (~9 capital-scale)

[MadCapellan]

Fa Shih are armored infantry, Gùns are Battlemechs.

Are you arguing that it is okay for BattleMechs to be armored worse than infantry? I'm afraid you'd need to expound on that for me to make heads or tails of it.

[MadCapellan]

But I can see some utility for the Gun to transport clamp-less BA to the front, and then support them against vehicles and other BA.

Against what sorts or vehicles and BA? What can the Gùn possibly assist battle armor against that isn't going to tear it to shreds? A single large laser or AC/10 shot can cripple it. At least the Fa Shih would still have 3 fully functional troopers.

[Maingunnery]

Against what sorts or vehicles and BA? What can the Gùn possibly assist battle armor against that isn't going to tear it to shreds? A single large laser or AC/10 shot can cripple it. At least the Fa Shih would still have 3 fully functional troopers.

Buildings, BA, Bug-Mechs.
The Gùn is more of a legged IFV then a battle design.

[Retry]

Are you arguing that it is okay for BattleMechs to be armored worse than infantry? I'm afraid you'd need to expound on that for me to make heads or tails of it.

No, I'm supporting your point.

[MadCapellan]

No, I'm supporting your point.

Oh, excellent! My apologies for the misunderstanding!

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The Gun's entry in TRO 3145 does say that it's intended for infantry support and garrison duty.  So it's not intended to actually fight other mechs.

Yet another reason I wouldn't assign it to a mech force for BA hauling.

[MadCapellan]

Buildings, BA, Bug-Mechs.
The Gùn is more of a legged IFV then a battle design.

Bug 'Mechs generally fear battle armor in my experience, not the other way around. Buildings generally aren't a threat, and you'd probably be able to bring better tools to kill battle armor on a transport VTOL or actual IFV.

[Maingunnery]

Bug 'Mechs generally fear battle armor in my experience, not the other way around. Buildings generally aren't a threat, and you'd probably be able to bring better tools to kill battle armor on a transport VTOL or actual IFV.

Most Bug 'Mechs can effectively out-range or kite BA, the Gùn creates a bubble of doom that will allow its BA to do their job.
Concerning buildings, they can be occupied by hostile infantry, and at times it is better to destroy that building then using the BA.
The Gùn brings its 'Mech advantages to the IFV role (Mech maneuverability, Mech heat dissipation, etc).

[Hellraiser]

A 20-ton mech moving 5.8.0 has 2 possible roles that don't get it killed quickly........ infantry suppression & LRM support.
Neither of which the Gun does.
Endo & XL Gyro for IS+Gyro that way a total of 3 tons?   Small Cockpit when your not a Blakist cyborg?
I question the need to get a Heavy PPC onto my 20 ton mech.

The Engine size is really the only thing I like about the Gun & the mission of supporting infantry.
But making it an Omni & using all those nifty weight techs was a waste of resources IMO.
For the era, to support infantry, I'd think you would be better off mounting a couple ERMLs & Light MGs & maybe some JJs.
Basically a half sized Watchman.

[Minemech]

 The Strider and Owens have always been good special support units, with the latter standing out because its XL Engine made it shinier. The Gun is workable under controlled conditions, but that is its problem. Yet, what do you expect from a mech its mass these days.

[MadCapellan]

Yet, what do you expect from a mech its mass these days.

A 'Mech that can consistently pull a +4 TMM able to snipe, skirmish, or deal burst fire vs conventionals?

[Minemech]

A 'Mech that can consistently pull a +4 TMM able to snipe, skirmish, or deal burst fire vs conventionals?

In some ways I wonder if there was a bit of Locust/Cicada humor in the design. The Cicada famously had a PPC variant that the Locust could never match, then the Cicada got a beauty of a Heavy PPC variant and now a mech could match it at 20 tons.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Except that Cicada is 40% faster, has around triple the armor, and carries 4 ER Medium Lasers in addition to the HPPC.  It is not "matched" by the Gun.

[Minemech]

Except that Cicada is 40% faster, has around triple the armor, and carries 4 ER Medium Lasers in addition to the HPPC.  It is not "matched" by the Gun.

The speed is undeniable, but the Cicada also 1 upped the Locust previously in the omni Strider which was also slow. No one will defend the armor of the Gun. It seems like a parody of that old rivalry.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Just pointing out that a 20 ton mech really can't match the HPPC Cicada except in the most technical sense of being able to put a Heavy PPC on a 20 ton mech.  If you really want to compare the Gun A to an older mech, I'd look at the Hollander.

[Minemech]

Just pointing out that a 20 ton mech really can't match the HPPC Cicada except in the most technical sense of being able to put a Heavy PPC on a 20 ton mech.  If you really want to compare the Gun A to an older mech, I'd look at the Hollander.

I do not think that it was meant to be taken outside of the context of the old rivalry, an easter egg if you will for us old fogies (Not in the intellectual sense).

[BrianDavion]

the Gun is a glorified omni urbie. a slow over gunned lightmech that can deal horrific damage sure but likely will die fast in a battlefield where it faces anything bigger then it