There can be some changes for infantry?

[Daryk]

It has the standard 30-inch step but is missing the normal cadence of 120 beats per minute.

[Daemion]

I see.  120 beats per minute is two steps per second.  Is that where you'd be getting the 4-5 MPH?  I could see 60 inches per second getting you to about the 2 mph that most people can walk relatively comfortably.  I'm assuming that the 4-5 is a simple doubling one would expect if you were to run at a sustainable pace.  Edit: But, to clear 100 feet in 10 seconds, you'd have to be moving at 10 feet per second.  You can't get that starting from a dead stop.  You'd already have to be at a flat-out dash.

I recall the typical flat-out sprint speed for most people would be 7 MPH. 

But! (!!) That's before field conditions.   

As someone who's traversed all kinds of uncultivated terrain from grassy fields to plowed to weed-infested woods and even the occasional wetland, all while carrying a screen or shovel or GPS or a combination of other earthmoving gear all in the name of science (CRM Archaeology), one thing I've found is that holes, roots, sticks, stones, and other fun little obstacles will jump out at you in a hurry.  Especially when you're not looking and you're in a hurry.  Even something like following a dear trail can force a face-plant.  And, it wasn't just me.  Everyone I've worked with has taken a spill, and we were usually taking it slow and casual, with eyes on the ground.  (Heck the worst incident was busting up the undercarriage of a car when I failed to notice a stone a farmer had planted in a field entrance, even though I had walked right next to it.  When I turned around and saw it, it was too late, and I couldn't signal the driver in time.  We're talking 2 foot tall and wide boulder, and it had been hidden by tall grass.  My worst spill had sent me home with a sprained ankle when stepping into a small rivulet hidden in tall grass at the edge of a cornfield.  One of our people had disappeared into a hole she hadn't seen, but managed to extricate herself.  I have plenty of tales in this regard.) 

So imagine having to take that kind of terrain in haste. 

One begins to appreciate a form of magic tech enhancement such as the grav pack that Renegade Legion Infantryman are supposed to have.  if you don't have to worry about hitting the ground real hard, you can run to your heart's content, with the only thing to worry about is catching your toe on something. 

[Cannonshop]

I'm not seeing where you're deriving the information from that article.

oops.  Here, this one's better: https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/health/a45709070/average-walking-speed/

Now, mind that in a nation the size of the Successor States, you might be able to find enough olympic quality athletes to edge that closer to the higher average, but still...you're not going to be moving at the speed of a galloping horse even at eight feet tall without mechanical help.

[Charistoph]

But! (!!) That's before field conditions.   

As someone who's traversed all kinds of uncultivated terrain from grassy fields to plowed to weed-infested woods and even the occasional wetland, all while carrying a screen or shovel or GPS or a combination of other earthmoving gear all in the name of science (CRM Archaeology), one thing I've found is that holes, roots, sticks, stones, and other fun little obstacles will jump out at you in a hurry.  Especially when you're not looking and you're in a hurry.  Even something like following a dear trail can force a face-plant.  And, it wasn't just me.  Everyone I've worked with has taken a spill, and we were usually taking it slow and casual, with eyes on the ground.  (Heck the worst incident was busting up the undercarriage of a car when I failed to notice a stone a farmer had planted in a field entrance, even though I had walked right next to it.  When I turned around and saw it, it was too late, and I couldn't signal the driver in time.  We're talking 2 foot tall and wide boulder, and it had been hidden by tall grass.  My worst spill had sent me home with a sprained ankle when stepping into a small rivulet hidden in tall grass at the edge of a cornfield.  One of our people had disappeared into a hole she hadn't seen, but managed to extricate herself.  I have plenty of tales in this regard.) 

So imagine having to take that kind of terrain in haste. 

One begins to appreciate a form of magic tech enhancement such as the grav pack that Renegade Legion Infantryman are supposed to have.  if you don't have to worry about hitting the ground real hard, you can run to your heart's content, with the only thing to worry about is catching your toe on something.

I was part of the BSA for a few years, and usually did a hike a month, sometimes excluding June through August (Arizona native, so yeah).  Since we usually camped as well, we would be carrying packs only a slight bit lighter than a soldier's kit.  Most of us ended up getting frame packs, so it was easier for our pubescent bodies to carry.

Trust me that I can agree that running with those things is a challenge, and we only did that on trails if running was needed at all.  Over unimproved terrain there is simply no point of running with a pack (and Arizona off-road can be painful due to cacti and the wild residents).

Still, most of the images they show of troopers have no packs.  Just the armor kit and weapons.  No idea where they keep their ammo.

[Daemion]

Still, most of the images they show of troopers have no packs.  Just the armor kit and weapons.  No idea where they keep their ammo.

On their belt, maybe?  [chiding]And you want your infantry to run with 'infinite' ammo...[/chide]. 

Regardless, our combined experiences are justification enough that a proper Game of Rifles for BattleTech needs to be at a completely different scale and/or the image of Field Infantry that are fit for the Game of Armored Combat needs to be changed to show augmentation of some sort.

[Daemion]

Basically, BT Infantry, even conventional, need to be like Heinlein's Mobile Infantry.  The MI may have trained without power armor, but they always deployed in it.

[Daryk]

60 inches (5 feet) per second is about 3.4 mph, not 2.  I personally walk around 4.5 mph when I'm commuting (i.e., when I'm not late for the train and running instead).  I normally do that in light hiking boots and with a pack between 5-10% of my body weight.

When I was training for Iraq, a member of the cadre told me to "run over to Admin", so I immediately set out at speed.  When I was about halfway to Admin, I heard the cadre member yell "don't run in body armor!".  That struck me as a little silly at the time, but I'll say the IBA I was wearing was closer to 30% of my body weight than 10%.  Later in my career, I was privileged to work with an Infantry Colonel who had deployed to the various lands of sand at least three times... his knees were shot from wearing body armor so much.

All that to say, from my personal experience, 1 MP for Foot Infantry is a reasonable base, and the various ways to boost that to 2 MP are also completely reasonable.  I don't look askance at it until they're up to 3 MP on the ground without augmentation (that said, I don't count MP reductions for rough terrain as actually boosting the speed of the Infantry).  THAT's beyond Olympic level performance given the loads they're carrying.

[Charistoph]

On their belt, maybe?  [chiding]And you want your infantry to run with 'infinite' ammo...[/chide]. 

Correction, I recognize that they CURRENTLY run with 'infinite' ammo, and if their fire is too limited, no one will ever have a reason other than just to be run over.

Admittedly, there are people who do that now, but still.

[Daemion]

oops.  Here, this one's better: https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/health/a45709070/average-walking-speed/

Now, mind that in a nation the size of the Successor States, you might be able to find enough olympic quality athletes to edge that closer to the higher average, but still...you're not going to be moving at the speed of a galloping horse even at eight feet tall without mechanical help.

Okay.  But, that's Walking.  Not the same as running.  Again, it's good to know what the average is.

But, I want to tackle a misconception I think people had about my wanting 3 MP, and I'll start by sharing this quote from my record sheet thread:

Yeah, I feel you.  If it helps any, my ideal for infantry is to do away with the conversion formula in the companion, and make infantry move and act like ATOW with much less abstraction, making them more similar.  The companion formula adds lots of weird things, like combining the grenade launcher with the rifle... Why?  Just have a rifle and a grenade launcher on the sheet, if the unit carries both.

Thats where the size mod comes from (RPG hit chart makes battle armor 1 easier to hit then infantry), I pulled my movement stats of 1/2/3 for green, skilled, and augmented from the RPG movement stats, obviously I want the range and damage from the RPG so an SRM is an SRM and not some odd blended rifle attack like the companion formula.  Also, flak at BAR5 and 1 point of battlearmor is in the 4/5 range, which is why I liked armored infantry in BattleTech to have 1 armor pip, and the BAR6 plate to have 2 pips like the 5/6 2 point battle armor does.

And since the RPG is run in 5-second turns, and you get two actions a turn, I wanted to emulate that potential higher rate of fire with infantry rifle attacks, but strictly against other infantry. If a guy is holding ground, he can potentially get off 4 attacks.  Am I right on this?  (I ask because I'm not learned in AToW.  I'm basing it off of comments I get from DevianID and Daryk.  To me, a simple two-actions a turn system seems to be typical, especially from my experiences in DnD and Pathfinder.)

This is why I decided to work in a different scale of MP for infantry, with a different list of MP options.  The 1/2/3 MP proposed is scale to the map.   

But, if we really are going to emulate the two action system with an adhoc BattleTroops MP cost system, I want something like double.  (Hence my comment in the other thread about wanting MP of 2, 3, and 4 or 5.  If you look at the little list of what MP can be spent on, I explicitly list that it would cost a conventional Infantry squad 2 MP to enter an adjacent hex.  Some of the reactions to that have me wondering if anyone caught that.)  That way, you can spend 1 mp to get a ranged attack.  For the support weapon, you'd also have to spend 1 mp to prep the weapon, whether that's reloading from the last shot or setting it up to start with.  1 MP can get you some other ancillary action like spotting or conducting some sort of task the squad may be specialized in.  It would allow Pinning to not be completely devastating.  And, you get to double up in a 10-second BT turn.  (Except for Support Weapons.  They have to combo their attacks with the preparation action.) 

Let me relist what I had proposed for a separate MP List strictly for conventional infantry squads:
MP Actions List
2 MP - Enter an adjacent Hex (Whole squad moves.)   <-- (There.  Did you see that?  It was there the first time.  Go look at the original post {edit} in the Sheet thread.)

1 MP - Make a Support Weapon attack. (Note: Support weapons cannot use this unless they first spend an MP to Set-up/Load. This MP can be combined with another action.)

1 MP - Set-up/Load (Support Weapon Team action.  This MP can be combined with another action.)

1 MP - Make a Free Rifle Attack. (The rifles make an anti-infantry attack.  This Action can be combined with the Set-up/Load Action or Make a Support Weapon attack.)

1 MP - Recover (Reduce the squad's Fatigue Level by one.  This action can be combined with the Set-up/Load or Make a Support Weapon attack.)

----------

So, under this proposed MP list, Devian's proposed 1/2/3 would effectively become 2/4/6.  That's too extreme for me. 

But, I tried the game out with the 2MP as the allotment for some green, lightly armored squads of rebels.  (It was a post black-out scenario, and both the Hero team and the OpFor are people declaring for a flag on a world in the Republic.)  I realized, even though we never got to actual squad interaction, that 2MP wasn't enough under this differnt MP system for infantry to emulate the potential for run and gun that squads could get standard.  And, if you're not firing on the move, there's no need to worry about an Attacker Movement Modifier.

However, under the RPG, clearing 30 meters will still only allow for 1 ranged attack from an RPG character.  With a base of 3 MP, where it costs 2 MP to enter an adjacent hex on the BT ground map would allow for that.  And, the fact that they spent MP on movement in the turn would impart an AMM.  Since it's considered running, it would be the +2.

And, putting a little more emphasis on the Fatigue track would help with complications such as entering adverse terrain that has an MP Cost beyond +1.  Like Heavy Woods.

Here's what I'm thinking:  It costs a base of 2 to enter a hex plus any additional costs for entering the terrain type.  If the unit would be short, the extra MP is made up for by increasing the fatigue gained by the missing allotment.  They're having to move harder to get there. 

So, if I go with the 2/3/3/4 I had proposed across the experience levels, a standard squad would have a base of 3 MP.  Entering a clear hex, they could still have an MP to use to make an anti-infantry attack with their rifles, firing from the hip.  This would normally cost an increase of 1 fatigue on the Fatigue track.  They could push themselves to 2 if they wanted to double their rate of fire.  The attacks would be with the +2 running AMM penalty though. 

However, if they're moving into a light woods hex, it would cost all 3 MP they have.  It's hard to crack off a shot when you're trying not to trip up or run into a tree, or move bramble vines or branches out of the way.  It only costs one fatigue, though.  They just sacrifice the attack for a different distraction. 

And, if they were to enter a Heavy Woods Hex, which costs 4 total, they could, but they would be moving a little more intently, dealing with distractions and having to really dodge some obstacles, so it would eat up all 3 MP and cost 2 fatigue to do so.

And, then armor class would slow you down the same way, but making things more fatiguing.  Because anyone can generally muster a burst of strength to get some speed, even under a load.  But how long they can maintain that depends on the load and their physical conditioning and familiarity with the load's distribution.

[Daemion]

With that, you could see why my conundrum was whether to do 2/3/3 with a specialty bonus/4 for Green/Standard/Vet/Elite, or maybe go for 2/3/4/5 in a purely linear fashion.  Again, with 2 MP being the base cost of moving across hexes for infantry in BT.

And, that MP action list is far from comprehensive.  There are a couple things that aren't on there that I can think of right off hand:

Specialization actions, like spotting, controlling a system in a facility, or Anti-Mech attacks. are not on there.  But, I haven't figured out if those should cost a simple 1 or the full 2. 

[Cannonshop]

Y'know, if we were just discussing developing a stand-alone game for infantry?

Action Points

Green: 2 Action points/turn
Regular: 3 Action Points/turn
Veteran: 4 Action Points/turn
Elite: 5 Action Points/turn

What are action  points? they represent actions such as moving, taking cover, shooting, etc. that a squad stand can take.

Spotting: 1 AP
Walking/marching: 1 AP
Sprinting: 2 AP
Taking Cover: 1 AP
Firing personal/Issue weapon (Rifles or other small arms):1 AP
Firing heavy weapons: 1 AP
setting up Crew Served weapon: 2 AP/turn (Crew Served would be things like Mortars that you REALLY don't want to try to fire off your shoulder, not even as a joke, or other very heavy weapons)

Players have to decide how they're going to spend the AP (action points) for their squad of infantry in the movement phase.  'sprinting' is using the maximum number of AP to move, and tops out at 2, in some cases (Regular, Veteran, or Elite) leaving room to do other things-like taking cover, spotting for indirect fire or airstrikes, or shooting at something.

Veterancy ratings determine how many actions a squad can take as an expression of competency.  More competent soldiers can do more things in less time, overcome fatigue, etc. more easily.

Fatigue

Fatigue is the 'heat scale' for Infantrymen.  For the cost of up to 3 AP now, you're going into fatigue debt.  This impacts the gunnery score for the squad, but can be paid off at a rate of 1 fatigue point per turn spent instead of an action point.

Fatigue is also accumulated through personnel losses and can not be bought back, except by ditching or losing assets like crew served weapons.

Fatigue points not bought back remain, and stack with any additional fatigue points in following turns.  When the fatigue scale reaches 10, the squad is incapable of actions, and must rest until the fatigue level reaches zero again.

A squad at Fatigue 10 cannot even retreat, though if they were in cover, they retain the cover bonuses until said cover is removed.  Note that squads embarked on vehicles can recover their fatigue debt while the vehicle is in motion, and recover it at double rate when the vehicle is cruising or parked, while only recovering at 1/turn if the vehicle is flanking.

[paladin2019]

Y'know, if we were just discussing developing a stand-alone game for infantry?

Action Points

Green: 2 Action points/turn
Regular: 3 Action Points/turn
Veteran: 4 Action Points/turn
Elite: 5 Action Points/turn

BattleTroops? 

Seriously, BT uses MP mods to account for skill level, with no more than 8 MP allowed to be spent on movement.

Green: -1 MP
Regular: 8 MP (the base)
Veteran: +1 MP
Elite: +2 MP

[Cannonshop]

Not sure if you guys could or would use any of what I posted above, but the idea, is the 'trick' with infantry;  You can push through up to the limits of your endurance.

Notably, elite troops are going to have significantly more endurance than Greenies.

note also, this gives a different sort of play when compared with Battlesuits, which have power assist and herojuice dispensers, onboard medical, and so on.

Suit units don't have a fatigue score, and don't have to choose how to spend their action points, and don't get the veterancy bonus for additional actions.

BattleTroops? 

Seriously, BT uses MP mods to account for skill level, with no more than 8 MP allowed to be spent on movement.

Green: -1 MP
Regular: 8 MP (the base)
Veteran: +1 MP
Elite: +2 MP

I see this as being both too abstract, and too clunky, but then, I did point out this is more or less deviating hard enough from the hyper-abstract treatment of infantry in TW to be a different game, so...

[Cannonshop]

anyway, for an example of the idea of 'Action points'

Green: the unit can move 1 and fire, or move 1 and take cover, or take cover and fire, or fire twice, or spot for artillery and move, or spot for aty and fire.

Elites can Move, Move, take cover, fire, and fire.  (Or any mix so long as 'move' is limited to 2 movements maximum).  This is separate from their gunnery score, which decides if their shots actually hit on the dice roll, and is influenced by fatigue-fatigue slows people down and makes them less accurate and effective until it's bought off.

in essence, an elite squad can lay down 5 firing tries in a single turn if that's all the player's wanting from them-but it comes with a cost, while greenies can only fire twice.

by 'fire' I mean 'aimed shots' not just waving your rifle over the parapet and emptying the mag.

but the IDEA is to give infantry squads a 'trick' over other types of unit that carry bigger weapons, inbuilt armor, and computer assistance.

the trick, is flexibility.  the better your infantry, the more flexible they are and the harder they are to tire out.  Basically it's inspired in part by Cassie Southorn, who, in the Camacho's Caballeros stories, did eight impossible things before breakfast on a regular basis, sometimes in heels.

This would also demonstrate the qualitative difference between, say, a Rabid Fox team, and Bunkietown's Militia...without it being a GEAR thing.

[Daryk]

As I said in the other thread, I'm trying to reduce the levels requiring conversion between each other, not increase them...

[Daemion]

Well, the easiest way to do that is to not have to do some weird conversion into some weird value that's supposed to be good across the board in the Tactical level game.  They're already making a distinction between armored and unarmored targets with conventional infantry.  It's in the terminology of the game when discussing Conventional Infantry.

So, in the RPG, you run each guy individually, much like a Mech or tank or any other combat unit is run in TW/Tactical Scale.

So, treating conventional infantry in the same vein as a Battle Armor squad in the Tactical Game but with a distinction between attacks that can harm armored units and attacks that are only good against unarmored targets seems a pretty simple means of conversion.

And from there, it really comes down to personal taste.  For instance, some people don't like multiple dice rolls.  Whereas, I'm okay with it because one of the core mechanics to play with in BT is dice-chucking with modifiers, and I've bought scads of pairs of d6s in different colors both pip and block.

Y'know, if we were just discussing developing a stand-alone game for infantry?

Action Points

If we were, but we're not, sadly.  And, what you propose is just a difference in terminology from the MP list I displayed already.  Was that the idea?

And, if it were at a different scale, like, say, where the Mech minis and the map are on even scaling instead of the 1-3 size difference we have now, you could run each individual infantry dude, well, individually. An Epic BattleTech, if you will. 

[Cannonshop]

... what you propose is just a difference in terminology from the MP list I displayed already.  Was that the idea?

for the most part.  I think the idea that was spinning in my crippled brain was that terms didn't really matter as much as application, but some terms might lead to confusion.

[Daemion]

Which is potentially true.