Author Topic: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?  (Read 2300 times)

Charistoph

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What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« on: 10 March 2024, 19:48:09 »
So a thought came to mind.  I searched to see if someone brought it up, but I may have forgot an area.

What if the Word of Blake targeted only the Clan Invasion Zone in their kerfuffle instead of just being general a-holes? 

Oh, Outreach and the Nova Cats would be targeted in that, too.

I don't know about their success rate, but I think we wouldn't be seeing a Devlin Stone and Republic.

How successful do you think they would be?  How many former Spheroid civilians would survive?

Would the Free Worlds League be shattered along with it, or maintain its usual "solidity"?

Would the Dragon take time to extend in to the Federated Suns?
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HABeas2

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #1 on: 10 March 2024, 21:27:23 »
What you're basically describing here is the Jihad the Word was actually preparing for, the one that was being primed to launch some time after they became a full member of the Second Star League.

- Herb

Charistoph

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #2 on: 10 March 2024, 22:22:54 »
What you're basically describing here is the Jihad the Word was actually preparing for, the one that was being primed to launch some time after they became a full member of the Second Star League.

- Herb

Correct.  But that's not what actually happened.  They turned it against everyone else.  So what if they kept it to the original planned target?  Would they have had more success, and less likely to be broken up by the rest of the Sphere?
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Retry

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #3 on: 10 March 2024, 22:47:09 »
Probably.  If they're explicitly only bombing people at the top of their hit list, the other big powers don't have a lot of incentive to intervene.  The Dracs and Lyrans might even fund 'em; at minimum it could weaken their Clan rivals and at best they might even get their planets back if the WoB crusade actually pushes them off their occupied worlds.

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #4 on: 10 March 2024, 23:31:43 »

The OP is basically half of the Master’s/Word’s plan — destroy the Spheroid Clans in detail in their OZs.  (The other half was to throw WMDs and the Shadow Divisions at the Homeworlds Clans.)  So what the OP is really asking is whether the Blakist plan would have succeeded if they had not thrown an ortillery tantrum at a couple House capitals after the dissolution of the Second Star League.

Even setting author fiat aside, it’s hard to say.  Destroying the Spheroid Clans through conventional assaults would be costly in terms of men and material.  Much depends on exactly how big the Blakist military is compared to the handful of Spheroid Clan toumans at that time.  And that’s hard to determine exactly due to the irregular force structure of both militaries.

The WoBM had ~39 divisions and another dozen Shadow Divisions at the outset of the Jihad.  It’s anyone guess exactly how many mechs were in each division and whether the Shadow Divisions would have played a significant role in the OZ campaign.  But if we assume the Shadow Divisions are held in reserve for the Clan Homeworlds and if we assume WoBM divisions average the same 108 mechs as a typical House regiment, then the Blakists has some 4,200+ mechs to throw at the OZ operation.

Here’s the rundown of Spheroid Clan strength at the outset of the Jihad:

Diamond Shark — 17 clusters in OZs
Ghost Bear — 57 clusters
Jade Falcon — 45 clusters in OZ
Nova Cat — 32 clusters
Wolf — 34 clusters in OZ
Wolf-in-Exile — 13 clusters

Total — 198 clusters

Assuming 45 mechs per cluster, that’s 8900+ mechs.

So at 8900+ Clan mechs versus 4200+ WoBM mechs, the Blakists are outnumbered a little more than 2:1.  Add in a force multiplier for Clan technology and phenotype/training advantages, and we may really be looking at 3:1, when what the WoBM really needs to succeed is a 1:3 advantage or better.  These numbers get even worse for the WoBM if they need to leave some divisions behind to guard Terra and facilities elsewhere in the Inner Sphere.  There’s no doubt that the WoBM will do a lot of damage, but based on the numbers, the WoBM won’t survive such an operation while some large fraction of the Clan toumans will.

To succeed, the WoBM would need to add some combination of the following to their raw numbers, but they’re all fraught options:

Local Superiority/Divide-and-Conquer — In theory, the WoBM could have taken on only one or two Clan toumans at a time.  Destroy the Falcons and Wolves first before the Bears and Sharks can figure out what’s going on, then move onto the Bear and Sharks and then hope there’s enough WoBM forces left to wipe out the Exiles and Cats at the end.  These are the kinds of strategies that can work well for an outnumbered aggressor at the outset of a war (Napoleon, American Civil War, WWII, etc.).  But quantity is a quality all its own, and these strategies also usually succumb in the end to the law of large numbers.

Prior Clan Casualties — Due to recent conflict, many Clan clusters were not at full strength, which would have brought their numbers down somewhat.  But it wouldn’t have been the 50%+ needed for the WoBM to reach parity or numerical advantage.  And some marginal advantage probably would have conferred to the Clan forces for their more recent combat experience.

Ortillery — The WoBM is not going to use WMDs against Spheroid worlds, but when they’re separated from Spheroid populations, the WoBM could in theory blast Clan enclaves from orbit.  Even this may have drawn howls of protest from the Houses who recently held those worlds, especially when there is collateral damage among Spheroids.  And it certainly would have invited counterattacks from Clan warships and aerospace forces.

House Help — The Master and Blakists thought they they were going to join the Second Star League and lead the Houses in a crusade against the Clans.  But political alignments were more complicated than Houses versus Clans on the eve of the Jihad.  The Cat touman was actually part of the SLDF at this time and enjoyed a large measure of gratitude from the Combine for recently helping eject the Jags.  And the Exiles likely had the loyalty of the ARDC, if not the Lyrans as a whole.  And it’s unclear whether the Cappies would have cared.  So that would have left some help from the FWL, adventurous FedRats, Tamar units, and the Rasalhagians.  Unless about half of the FWL military is also being thrown into this operation, it’s not clear the House allies would have enabled the WoBM to reach parity with the Clan numbers, nevertheless outnumber them.

Secondary Forces — One could posit that the WoBM had the numerical advantage in tanks and infantry.  But tanks die quickly in BT, infantry aren’t terribly effective outside of defensive positions, and the Clans have their battle armor and some measure of tanks themselves.  Not clear this would have swung the numbers in the WoBM’s favor.  Same goes for the mercs the Blakists had been hiring, especially if most or a chunk of them were dedicated to crippling the Goons.

With some author fiat giving the WoBM some/all of these advantages, maybe they could have wiped out the Spheroid Clan toumans with little or no surviving WoBM at the end.  But the numbers in the sourcebooks don’t support a successful case for such an operation.  Even when their full strength was revealed, the Blakists never had the numbers needed eject the Clans from the Inner Sphere conventionally.

Ironically, because they didn’t care about the condition of the Clan Homeworlds at the end of this, the Blakist operation against the Clan Homeworlds arguably had a greater chance of success because the Shadow Divisions could just throw Mule-Q nukes, Erinyes impactors, and pathogens at the problem until they were certain the surviving Clanners could be cleaned up conventionally.  The WoBM could not do that in the Clan OZs and would have had to fight with their WMD hand tied behind their back.

FWIW...
« Last Edit: 10 March 2024, 23:37:30 by Natasha Kerensky »
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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #5 on: 10 March 2024, 23:58:31 »
Correct.  But that's not what actually happened.

I'm pretty sure the man who wrote the Jihad knows that's not what actually happened.  :wink:
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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #6 on: 11 March 2024, 01:27:47 »
  This is fun to think about.  Something to consider is how well the Word's crusade would be received by the Successor States.  By this point the Word has already gone ballistic on the Wolf Dragoons and the AMC so they are out of the picture.  IIRC the Shadow Divisions alone (packing a metric tons of WMDs) were going to be sent out to annihilate the Clan home-worlds which would leave about 39 Divisons and some 20 regiments worth of mercenaries (probably slightly less given this is taken from Blake Secrets in 3075) as well as respectable fleet of warships to defend Blakists assets in the IS or to take the war to the IS Clans. 
 
  I'm pretty sure Peter, Victor, and Yvonne wouldn't be down with a sudden and unsupported genocide given the lengths Victor went to prevent one on Huntress so that rules out the Federated Suns, Lyran Alliance and Comstar as allies.  Theodore is likely to back Victor given their relationship so I doubt the Draconis Combine will do anything to assist the Word. 

  Thomas Halas was already getting pretty uncomfortable with the Word in Ideal War so he might try to distance himself from them making the League an unreliable ally.  However given how heavily the Word has infiltrated the League he may not have a choice in the matter.  Sun Tzu has no love for the Word given how they undermine his ambitions to reclaim lost Cappellan territory in the Chaos March with their protectorate, but they do have some leverage over him by controlling Cappellan HPGs so he could go either way.

  On the other hand taking the war to the Clans might be very popular with the people of the Inner Sphere.  I could very easily see the League getting dragged into a war between the Clans and Blakists.  The Black Dragons might also force Theodore's hand into taking the fight to the Clans on seeing decisive action taken by an IS power against them.  However all this would tip the Word's hand to Victor, Fotch and friends.  It would be different Inner Sphere for sure and while the Blakists might win the Clan war they might critically undermine their long term goals. 

  This could definitely go a bunch of different ways.  I mean imagine a Society WMD counter attack.  Sure Blake tech is scary but it's got nothing on Society tech.  Genetic plagues tailored to killing Blakists, superior electronic survelience to hack Blakists communications and HGPs and undercover hidden Blakists worlds, and legions of gene-therapy modified teenage proto-mech pilots to hurl these WMDs at Blakists enclaves.  Yeah, I could see things going pretty badly for the Blakists if the Society decides to go in for revenge.   

Atlas3060

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #7 on: 11 March 2024, 07:27:23 »
Theodore is likely to back Victor given their relationship so I doubt the Draconis Combine will do anything to assist the Word. 

...The Black Dragons might also force Theodore's hand into taking the fight to the Clans on seeing decisive action taken by an IS power against them.
That actually might be a fun scenario to play out. The Black Dragons going after Theodore because of his "peacenink" ways compared to the good ol' steel and bushido of old. It really depends on which Clan the Word plans to hit first I would think.
Even while Theodore was in office, the Combine tried hitting the Bears and we all saw how that played out.
The Nova Cats are a non issue so the Black Dragons either might side with the Word on hitting the Bears or might actually find some way to bring up the issue again with Theodore, given how the Word would probably help back a campaign against them.

I think the sticking factor might be the former FRR residence, for all we know they might side with the Bears given how if they don't it could just be Ronin War 2, Haiku Boogaloo to them. Drac warriors stomping on their lands to "liberate" them from the Clans only to chain them back up for the glory of the Combine.

Quote
  This could definitely go a bunch of different ways.  I mean imagine a Society WMD counter attack.  Sure Blake tech is scary but it's got nothing on Society tech.  Genetic plagues tailored to killing Blakists, superior electronic survelience to hack Blakists communications and HGPs and undercover hidden Blakists worlds, and legions of gene-therapy modified teenage proto-mech pilots to hurl these WMDs at Blakists enclaves.  Yeah, I could see things going pretty badly for the Blakists if the Society decides to go in for revenge.

Honestly I don't see a Society counter attack as a possibility. Then again we're all "supposing" at this point.
The Blakists would be keeping Warriors busy with fighting and dying, all while giving the Scientists free reign in the name of bettering the Clan. Does that mean some Society tech leaks out to help the Warriors? Yes, but does that mean the Society would go out of their way to just whomp the Blakists? Not so much in my eyes, they might use that to strengthen themselves in the Clans more until the time comes they can perform their goal of overthrowing the Warrior authority.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #8 on: 11 March 2024, 07:57:41 »
The thing with Society vs Blake is that the Society doesn't want to lose all their Warriors, they just want to be in charge of them and the rest of Clan Society.

I'd expect they'd deploy their mutagenic infantry, inferno and EMP iATMs, Nova CEWS, and cyber'd up Protos in force against Word interference in their affairs. Remember most of them were Warriors before they became Scientists so its not like they aren't capable of bringing directly competing against the Shadow Divisions. Especially since they could use HPG viruses to scramble Word Comms, misjump their Warships, and there were Planetary SDS in the Homeworlds capable of countering invasion forces planetside.

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #9 on: 11 March 2024, 08:09:11 »
An interesting plot twist would be if the Word and the Society came to some sort of accord to work against the warrior caste. It's not as if either of these factions are incapable of making backroom deals, after all, and they could at least agree that the warrior caste are "the problem". Now I'd fully expect them to inevitably come to blows if and when the Word starts genociding the Homeworlds, but there's some very interesting potential in seeing them working together, at least on some level.
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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #10 on: 11 March 2024, 12:29:14 »
I think a Word of Blake crusade against the Clans could be a lot of fun to play out. It'd be a second Twilight of the Clans, only more vicious, wider-spread, and less likely to succeed. There's a lot of potential for the Inner Sphere powers intervening both for and against the Blakists. For example, the Draconis Combine could support attacks on the Ghost Bears while protecting their "pet" Nova Cats.
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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #11 on: 11 March 2024, 16:22:36 »
Probably.  If they're explicitly only bombing people at the top of their hit list, the other big powers don't have a lot of incentive to intervene.  The Dracs and Lyrans might even fund 'em; at minimum it could weaken their Clan rivals and at best they might even get their planets back if the WoB crusade actually pushes them off their occupied worlds.

Lyrans were not going to fund anyone.  Whole reason they pulled out of the Star League is they couldn't afford it any more.   

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #12 on: 11 March 2024, 16:29:26 »
  This is fun to think about.  Something to consider is how well the Word's crusade would be received by the Successor States.  By this point the Word has already gone ballistic on the Wolf Dragoons and the AMC so they are out of the picture. 
 
 

As I recall Colonel Waco acted without Orders.   While I will also concede he didn't need orders with a real shot to kill the Dragoons.  He had waited a life time for that chance

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #13 on: 11 March 2024, 17:01:23 »
Still the same Word using the same weapons. Considering how fast they turned those weapons loose on the IS, I doubt the Word's war wouldn't still spill back into the IS at the first sight of confrontation after using weapons seen as taboo after the 2nd SW.
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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #14 on: 11 March 2024, 17:17:56 »
Still the same Word using the same weapons. Considering how fast they turned those weapons loose on the IS, I doubt the Word's war wouldn't still spill back into the IS at the first sight of confrontation after using weapons seen as taboo after the 2nd SW.

Pretty big assumption anyone would care.  After all nothing happen to the CC over Black May.   Oh I know it is all the crazy sisters fault.  But if they are really as taboo as we like to pretend there would have been real ramifications that likely cost the CC ST. Ives.  But in the end nobody cared much at all.      I don't honestly think how the Clans were killed would matter to the IS leaders or people as long as they didn't fail.

More likely we would have Andro fire ant style comericals on the death of the Clans.

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #15 on: 11 March 2024, 17:57:26 »
Still the same Word using the same weapons. Considering how fast they turned those weapons loose on the IS, I doubt the Word's war wouldn't still spill back into the IS at the first sight of confrontation after using weapons seen as taboo after the 2nd SW.
I've gotten the sense throughout the setting the "taboos" the IS has and whatnot is less "hey, they're nuking those cities!" and more "hey, they're nuking MY cities!"  I really don't think the big dogs are going to truly care about [War Crime X] unless they genuinely believe that criminal will do [War Crime X] to them, or if there's some sort of benefit for them to pretend to care about [War Crime X].

It's very much a realpolitik setting.  The few factions that operate heavily on ideological or (whatever their faction views as) moral grounds tend to get nuked.
Lyrans were not going to fund anyone.  Whole reason they pulled out of the Star League is they couldn't afford it any more.   
Their options are to stretch a bit of the budget and help the useful idiot Wobbies bash themselves on the Spheroid Clans in their ideological crusade and at least weaken their rivals enough to get by with a bit smaller (cheaper) military, if not destroy the Falcons outright and regain a decent chunk of their pre-invasion tax base, or do nothing and get nibbled by the Falcons alone in the future.  We more or less know how "well" the latter case panned out- though in canon they didn't have a cooperative WoB to piggyback off of.

Maybe the Wobbie crusade doesn't quite pan out like that in practice, but there's undoubtedly economic reasons for the Lyrans to at least consider the option.

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #16 on: 11 March 2024, 18:43:49 »
I was going to make a thoughtful comment using Turtle Bay as the example but the last reply leave me to believe I should concede the argument. I rather not argue what is a war crime? 
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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #17 on: 11 March 2024, 19:20:37 »
I was going to make a thoughtful comment using Turtle Bay as the example but the last reply leave me to believe I should concede the argument. I rather not argue what is a war crime?

And Turtle Bay is exactly why no IS citizen is going to give a darn how the clans would have been destroyed they would have just been happy the boogie man was dead.

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #18 on: 11 March 2024, 19:25:58 »
I think the only thing the Inner Sphere (looking mostly at the LyrCom and DracCom here) would really care about is the collateral damage to the Spheroid populations of those planets and the planets themselves, because they feel those things belong to them. But the Clanners themselves? Not only do I see them not batting an eye, they would probably cheer... if not join in on the genocide.
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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #19 on: 11 March 2024, 19:26:43 »
I never got the "Star League is too expensive" excuse for disbanding The Star League, since you could just move to reduce your commitments now that you've got twice as many votes. But whatever. I think the reason The Jihad started is the same reason the Word wouldn't have gotten far enough to actually assault the Clans. They were several camps of zealots with WMDs wearing a trenchcoat to look like one entity. That's not a recipe for a stable actor, much less one that could plan and execute an Uno Reverse Clan Invasion: War Crimes Edition.

Scenario I: The Star League Plan

If they did throw all that stuff at the Clans in lockstep with the Star League, they'd probably be doing it with minimal help of the LC, CC, C*, and FS. I'm sure the LC would have a vested interest in giving whatever they could do. The CC could be coaxed into contributing something, and obviously ComStar would be pretty reluctant to supporting a WoB operation.

So they'd be cribbing Victor's notes to do Operation Bulldog, mk II, probably against the Falcons and/or Wolves (we can't do all of these operations to help the DC). Under Vlad Ward and Marthe Pryde, they're the two canniest Clans, the ones most likely to be on the lookout for another Operation Bulldog, and the ones likely to do what The Clans wouldn't do for the Smoke Jaguars: cooperate. Meanwhile, the Word would probably be using their war crime-iest tools on their own Operation Scorpion, against pre-Reaving Clan Homeworlds.

I'd imagine a bogged down Star League operation--surrounded by mauled, angry Falcons, Wolves, and (possibly) Bears, on the hook for Blakist atrocities in much the same way the Blakists hooked themselves in The Jihad--holding dicks in hands when homeworld remnants come screaming out of the Periphery with worse horror stories and nothing to lose.

If the Clans come out on top, Great Refusal or no, you'd likely see a coalition of Clans--all of them--driving for Terra and The Blakist Protectorate. Do not pass Jihad, do not collect 200 Stone, go directly to ilClan.

Scenario II: A Very Blakist Operation

Sans the Star League, I'd see fewer operators being involved. Maybe just the DC, FWL, and LC. But without a Star League-level buy-in, I don't see even those guys throwing as much in. I see a plan buoyed with more fanatical optimism, fewer seasoned hands at the till, and less brute force going south sooner and harder, but bringing far fewer people down with it.

If the timidity of the participants is enough, they might--might--delay it until the Wars of Reaving and absolutely shatter the homeworld clans while they're already tearing each other apart. If that happens, there's a chance it would actually provide the kind of external threat necessary to reunify the homeworld clans and 'cleanse' them by giving them the shock of a depraved, spheroid war and reaffirm The Way of the Clans. My understanding of the WoR was that it was a society based on their aggression and superiority being unable to reconcile a resounding, undeniable defeat and having nothing to do but turn on scapegoats (or reconcile flaws in their society, but you can't do that with a Warhawk, so...).

Slim chance in a slim chance in an improbability, the homeworld clans might win, but mostly we're turning the dial on the number of homeworld Clanners getting to the Inner Sphere and whether they're refugees or reinforcements. The "How Mad Are They" dial is pretty much the same (11/10). I still don't see it turning out great for the Word--possibly worse--and it's definitely worse when everyone in the Inner Sphere sees the Blakists' true face.

I don't see how a Blakist Coalition could win without the clans being incredibly stupid (so...60/40). If the Clans are strong enough to drive to Terra, they will. If not, I can see the DC, FWL, and LC offering the depleted Blakists up on a plate to the Clans for peace. Blakists are arrested and tried (probably by ComStar), The Blakist Protectorate is picked apart like the Hegemony before it, and Terra is returned to ComStar (the spiciest of options).

Scenario III: Blakists Are Doin' It for Themselves

If the Word tries to truly solo a invading clan, are they still splitting forces to go after the homeworlds? They'll still face backlash if they start dropping Shadow Divisions, mass drivers, and WMDs willy-nilly in a Clan OZ.

The only success I see for them would be if they shop around for allies and get nothing after years of haggling. They put everything into an Operation Scorpion II in the homeworlds, which arrives during the WoR. The homeworlds are obliterated, with sparse and inaccurate data percolating back to the Inner Sphere. It becomes a mystery on par with the Minnesota Tribe.

But the original question was 'if they hit all the OZs.' They'd get creamed.

If they hit one OZ, I think they'd be successful, depending on the willingness of the Clans to recognize a common threat. If they used all of their resources, they'd lose the trust of much of the Inner Sphere. If that didn't end with a Jihad, they'd probably retreat to the hidden worlds and become a ubiquitous religion with extensive technical knowledge.

Answering the Questions

How many IS civilians would die? A lot. More in scenarios where the Blakists fight on their own and lose. Fewer in scenarios where they're part of a coalition and (somehow) succeed.

There wouldn't be a Devlin Stone or a Republic. Either the Blakist Protectorate would spin off into its own thing or it'd be picked apart (again). One in a hundred chance the Blakists, lose, call the game, and leave a token force--with leader--to hold the Protectorate together. That leader would probably be Blake and he might live or he might die, but I doubt he'd save The Protectorate. But without general war weariness or a thorough ravaging of Terra and surrounding worlds, I don't see the Successor States abandoning those worlds to a power that isn't even a particularly good buffer state.

Without being implicated in Blakist actions which directly affected their neighbors and their citizens, the FWL would probably hang together. There might be some problem rooting out Blakists if their alliance becomes detrimental, but the FWL has had civil wars before and most scenarios I see end up with the Blakists being depleted by the Clans and not being able to be a significant player in IS politics.

Would the Dragon take time to extend in to the Federated Suns? Probably not. In a lot of scenarios where the Wobbies have any allies, the DC is nominally one of them. ****** up the Clans has worked out well for the DC against the Smoke Jaguars. Helping to destroy the Wolves or Falcons doesn't help them as much short term, but if gangpiling clans is going to be a 'thing,' the DC is just waiting for the Ghost Bears' turn to come before they dip on the concept.
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VanVelding

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #20 on: 11 March 2024, 19:40:40 »
They'll still face backlash if they start dropping Shadow Divisions, mass drivers, and WMDs willy-nilly in a Clan OZ.
A real discussion about this broke out while I was typing. I agree with the notion that the IS powers aren't too interested in WMDs as long as they're not the target of them.

But if The Word of Blake rocked up with a quarter of what we saw during The Jihad, alarm bells would sound throughout the Inner Sphere's upper echelons. The result would be disbelief, fear, or envy. With the Clans being their endgame, they'd bring it all, which is more than a quarter. I can see the Great Houses appreciating that power being on their side, but only until they can find out how to steal/destroy its source before it turns on them.

To say nothing of Blakists spamming the worlds they're "liberating" with WMDs when their magical prophecy war doesn't go the way Blake said it would.
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Minemech

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #21 on: 11 March 2024, 19:50:16 »
 If you were the Word, you would probably start by targeting one foe first, in this case likely the Bears. If the politics are played correctly, a Comguard/DCMS/FWLN/Kungsarme/WOBM task force would annihilate the Clan and force political pressures on other Inner Sphere states. Victor is a small-fry, it is Dow that you have to manipulate. Theodore is already caught.

General308

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #22 on: 11 March 2024, 20:11:10 »


Scenario III: Blakists Are Doin' It for Themselves

If the Word tries to truly solo a invading clan, are they still splitting forces to go after the homeworlds? They'll still face backlash if they start dropping Shadow Divisions, mass drivers, and WMDs willy-nilly in a Clan OZ.

The only success I see for them would be if they shop around for allies and get nothing after years of haggling. They put everything into an Operation Scorpion II in the homeworlds, which arrives during the WoR. The homeworlds are obliterated, with sparse and inaccurate data percolating back to the Inner Sphere. It becomes a mystery on par with the Minnesota Tribe.

But the original question was 'if they hit all the OZs.' They'd get creamed.

If they hit one OZ, I think they'd be successful, depending on the willingness of the Clans to recognize a common threat. If they used all of their resources, they'd lose the trust of much of the Inner Sphere. If that didn't end with a Jihad, they'd probably retreat to the hidden worlds and become a ubiquitous religion with extensive technical knowledge.

Answering the Questions




I don't think they would get backlash at all for going WMD on the clan homeworlds.  The reality is those worlds are not even real places to the average IS citizen.    And honestly how would anyone even know what happened.   Who is going to tell?  Who is going to go to the Clan homeworlds to discover they are a wasteland.     Wiping out the Clan  homeworlds was for one reason only to win the IS citizens harts and minds.  History shows they only care about WMD's when they are used on them.

General308

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #23 on: 11 March 2024, 20:12:29 »
If you were the Word, you would probably start by targeting one foe first, in this case likely the Bears. If the politics are played correctly, a Comguard/DCMS/FWLN/Kungsarme/WOBM task force would annihilate the Clan and force political pressures on other Inner Sphere states. Victor is a small-fry, it is Dow that you have to manipulate. Theodore is already caught.

I think if you are WoB you hit the Clan homeworlds and work your way backwards to the IS.  By hitting the Homeworlds you cause a panic which could cause the homeworld clans to attack.  Giving WoB allies in the fight.

VanVelding

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #24 on: 11 March 2024, 20:29:19 »
I don't think they would get backlash at all for going WMD on the clan homeworlds.
I...agree. I said a successful strike on the homeworlds by the Word of Blake would be "a mystery on par with the Minnesota Tribe."

I specified that doing that stuff in a Clan Occupation Zone, all of which are in the Inner Sphere, would cause problems.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #25 on: 12 March 2024, 00:40:29 »
Honestly, I think a WoB attack on the Homeworlds would do a lot of damage but would eventually end with the WoB forces being destroyed.  Might have done a similar amount of damage as the Wars of Reaving, just with different survivors.  The Clans with Inner Sphere holdings would have probably still ended up permanently abandoning the Homeworlds as happened in canon, but this time they wouldn't have fled the other Clans.
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thedancingjoker

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #26 on: 12 March 2024, 01:54:18 »
One thing I think some folks here are overlooking is that If WoB launched an attack against the invasion corridor worlds the Lyran CommonWealth and Draconis Combine would be drawn in almost automatically.  Unless you think they would be fine with worlds that have historically been theirs in the hands of WoB.  Which the Lyrans absolutely would not have been.  Probably not Kurita either, but House Steiner has been fighting Marik for centuries and the cannot allow a strong Marik Ally to take their worlds on their other border.  That would be a very risky strategic position to be in.  So the Commonwealth needs to jump in and try to retake their border worlds.  Unless we are assuming that the WoB just kill all the clanners and leave the worlds unoccupied, which seems unlikely.

phoenixalpha

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #27 on: 12 March 2024, 05:54:19 »
I think the whole thing about the Word didnt have the numbers isn't a big deal. When you are dealing with invading planets. Its like the 4th SW all over again. The Blakists could quite easily double and triple the forces required by attacking one clan at a time, knowing that they aren't going to be reinforced by their "frenemies". So they can easily take one IS Clan at a time, focusing their might planet by planet, wave by wave. The Ghost Bears wouldn't spring to the defence of the Falcons. The Blakists might use a total war mentality. Pin point nukes or ortillery for hardened structures and force concentrations, before ASF superiority and then massed assaults with double or triple the forces required. Once a planet is cleaned of Clan forces, move on. Rinse, wash, repeat.


MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #28 on: 12 March 2024, 09:23:07 »
One of the big reasons that the other Clans didn't spring to the defense of the Jaguars is because the New Star League forces made it clear that they were only fighting the Jags and they conducted the war something like how the Clans fought.  If the Word started slinging nukes and orbital bombardments around willy nilly, they'd get declared desgra and the Clans would have been significantly more interested in cooperating to destroy them.
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VanVelding

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Re: What if the Word focused instead of generalized?
« Reply #29 on: 12 March 2024, 09:53:16 »
I'd like to think that an attack on any one clan would create a trend line for the rest to pay attention to. Die individually while refusing to work together even a little bit, or for Kerensky's sake work together. There's no lower limit on how stupid the clans can be, but I'd like to think that Vlad and Marthe are sharper than the usual clanner.

Even if the Ghost Bears did collapse and the Wolves and Falcons were stupid enough to pass on assisting, the Wolves would take advantage. Trials for units and worlds would be reasonable, as a method of expansion for the Wolves and a way of preserving Ghost Bear society and culture. With the Wolves moving in from the anti-spinward side and the Blakists on the spinward side, eventually they'd cross paths. I don't see the Wolves as being inclined to back down and I don't see the Wobbies as being constitutionally able to back down.

I think it would be likely that even in a focused strike on just one Clan, another would get pulled into it. With everyone else in the galaxy wanting both participants to fight until they are dead, I don't see any of it ending well. Sure, there are different possible endings, but I'd put my money on that one.
Co-host of 17 to 01 and The Beige and The Bold. I also have a dusty old blog about whatever comes to mind vanvelding.blogspot.

 

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