Author Topic: What mechs are a great idea but really poor implimentation/comparison?  (Read 6116 times)

The Eagle

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2325
  • This is what peak performance looks like!
I'm definitely a biased Marik fan, but I'd argue the Yeoman is actually a fantastic fire support design for a 3060's FWLM.  Allow me to explain.

A lot -- and I mean a lot -- of 3050's fire support 'Mechs mounted Artemis FCS to their LRM racks.  This is especially true in the FWL, where even the little Hammer tossed them on to its measly LRM-5s (and for the unaware, yes, the plural is unfortunately intended).  The Archer-4M has them.  The Apollo has them.  The Perseus-A has them.  About the only 'Mechs with LRMs in FWLM service that didn't have Artemis systems mounted NARC launchers instead (like the Trebuchet or Orion), but these had a similar issue.

And then, in the late 3050's, the FWLM started using the newly-designed technological terror called the semi-guided long-range missile (SGLRM).  SGLRMs get a bunch of bonuses when shot at a target designated by a friendly TAG laser, and unlike Artemis FCS, these bonuses are not turned off if the target is protected by Guardian ECM.  The League was already building or importing a bunch of battle armor and 'Mechs with TAG lasers, so the pairing made sense.

However, I'd imagine that Marik planners quickly ran into the issue that you can't mount both an Artemis seeker and a semi-guided seeker on the same missile.  So if you're loading SGLRMs into the bins of, say, an ARC-4M, you're now completely wasting two full tons that could be armor or medium lasers or heat sinks.

Enter the Yeoman.  It has a higher total throw-weight than any of the other medium or heavy fire support designs it was designed to supplant.  It didn't mount Artemis or NARC, so loading SGLRMs did not result in wasted tonnage and thus side-stepped the efficiency-loss issue.  The lack of secondary weapons and or super-thick armor wasn't considered an issue because if you're firing SGLRMs, you don't need LOS and thus can safely hide where enemy hunter-killers shouldn't be able to see you.

SGLRMs were originally, I'd imagine, mounted on non-upgraded Succession Wars variants of fire support 'Mechs because the 'Mech itself needed no upgrades to its internal systems.  So long as there was a Hermes or some Achileus skulking about, that 'Mech had become more accurate with its missile fire.  However, FM:FWL (dated 3058) states the FWLM 'Mech corps has about 70% of its strength fielding post-Helm upgrades due to the rapid re-industrialization that occurred in the wake of the Marik-Davion Outreach pact.  By the time the Yeoman entered service in 3060, that upgrade percentage would have been inching even higher.  This in turn means that the number of SW-era designs capable of fielding SGLRMs without suffering compatibility issues with Artemis or NARC is rapidly shrinking.

If you're a military planner, seeing that inefficiency in fire support -- and since this is the FWLM we're talking about, bear in mind that LRMs are one of their preferred weapons -- is going to cause some concern.  Do you abandon the SGLRM as a technology?  Start your refit cycle all over to remove A4/NARC?  Or, do you bring into service a fire support platform that is purpose-built to utilize SGLRMs and avoid the mass inefficiency issue?  It's my belief that League planners chose Door Number Three and thus we have the Walking BOOM Box, the mobile billboard advertising your death, that is the YMN-6Y Yeoman.  And if you need more evidence this was intended, then consider that the Yeoman was built by Curtiss MiliTech.  Curtiss MiliTech also manufactured, at about the same time, the EGL-2M Eagle which is, in effect, a jumping TAG system.  It's almost as if Curtiss designed the two to work in tandem.

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
RIP Dan Schulz, 09 November 2009.  May the Albatross ever fly high.

Hit me up for BattleTech in the WV Panhandle!

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1866
Only for the mech I can't think something worse than charger, or at least among what I remember. The concept of heavy armored recon was great, but by the gods why those damned Wells Techmologies chosen 80 tons and put a 400 fusion engine on it??? Only if it were 75 tonner and house a 375 fusion it is WAY better even on the era - for it ensures the better protection of up to 14 tons of armor and more tonnage for the better gears such as upgraded weapons and/or jump jets. Even before consider an XL engine and more advanced and expensive gear, what charger suffered was the failure of realization, rather than the failure of the principal concept.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 26177
  • Need a hand?
The CGR-1A1 existed largely so that there was a canon mech that used a 400 rated engine.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1866
The CGR-1A1 existed largely so that there was a canon mech that used a 400 rated engine.

Yes I know, and it will serve as the fastest assault mech that have 5/8 MP(or you need a large engine that needs experimental rule and is very inefficient in overall too). But those facts does not hides its ridiculous design - actually, I am dead sure that it's an intended failure for the game developer to put a silly unit on the setting, and they surely knows the problem and actually want to make it problematic to run.

Yes, for developers' perspective, it would be not a bad idea nor it implimented poorly, for they want a bad mech to put in the first place and is actually bad both for fluff and table alike, so it's nothing but successful!

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 26177
  • Need a hand?
No, I'm saying the OOC reason is really the only justification for its existence.  In universe it really doesn't have a justification.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1866
No, I'm saying the OOC reason is really the only justification for its existence.  In universe it really doesn't have a justification.

I don't think that OOC reason is what we want to deny. And about in universe? Well at least they have a plan - a durable scout - and is not THAT bad and could be realized at the time even without expensive high tech stuffs such as XL engine. But the output is one of the worst failure we could imagine. So, at least the initial idea could be justfied, I think. The rest of those were a full load of garbage, though.

klarg1

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2476
This is the SLDF. They specialized. They had a 'Mech that was precision-engineered and thoroughly field-tested to die in cities. They had an IFV with a laser in every firing arc but no infantry bay. If there was a 2km stretch of open ground, then by Cameron they had a battalion of Hussars assigned to it.

OK. This comment made my morning.

Well played.

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 12088
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
i'd argue the Magi wasn't meant to be an IFV, more of a "Support Fighting Vehicle" akin to the role of the BMPT. it's not meant to carry infantry, it's meant to drive alongside APC's/True-IFV's to provide supporting fire. especially in urban enviroments. (but yeah, the weapons layout is inefficent for what it is)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 26177
  • Need a hand?
I want to know what exactly how its performance "put all doubts of its abilities aside," as Sarna puts it.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9652
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
I'm guessing fluff wise; the vehicle being a fast moving bullet hose had some value when the SLDF forces had many peace keeping operations in urban environment, it also wouldn't make a terrible escort at the front of a convoy thanks to its speed and armor. It's is defiantly less fitted for full on armor on armor combat we see more of later but the SLDF had other tanks at the time more suited for that. It's another vehicle that is niche and makes more sense in the fluff but with a load out that is very 'why?' inspiring while performing on the table top.   
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Minchandre

  • Corporal
  • *
  • Posts: 88
I submit to you the Komodo.

It's not that it's a bad Mech (an IS Nova is a great idea), but it fails at its stated role of anti-BA. Elementals require 11 points of damage to kill. How much damage does an ML do? That's right, 5 points! So it takes 3 hits to kill an Elemental. 6 MPLs (6 damage, and so only two hits needed; the extra one comes from needing fewer HSes)  will kill more Elementals under almost all circumstances, albeit at slightly shorter range - but you still outrage your targets' primary weapon and the MLs are in SRM range too.

On top of that, two AMSes, which aren't bad but probably aren't worth the weight for the mission and a TAG because why not.

As a light and medium hunter, it's great. As a knife-fighter, it's pretty scary. As a BA killer? I won't say it fails, but it could do much, much better.

Bowie-Webster

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 34
All the Victors that have no CASE and can't fight past nine hexes(twelve with extreme range rules).

Its even worse when you can basically fit a '25 Victor into a '25 Hunchback chassis.  The '25 Victor drawing is extremely cool.  The AC arm and looking over it shoulder really says "You looking at me, punk. You want some of this!

Bowie-Webster

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 34
[quote
On the Clan side, the Naga.  It's quite fast and very heavily armed as an artillery 'Mech, but why is this thing an omni?  There are five alternative configurations and none of them are meaningfully different due to the huge Arrows taking up what could have been pod space.  If I need Clan Artillery I'd rather just have a Bowman.
[/quote]

The Naga was with the first wave Clan mechs.  The bigger question is why would the Clans make any artillery 'Mechs.   As portrayed at the time.  Arty is dishonourable. Hiding is dishonourable etc.  All that's really left is direct fire. As I dont recall if Arrow could do Ground to Air when introduced.  Its a lot of wasted resources for that Trueborn, to use now and again, in a trail against a pilot.

Weirdo

  • Painter of Borth the Magic Puma
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Major General
  • *
  • Posts: 40991
  • We can do it. We have to.
    • Christina Dickinson Writes
Ya gotta finish the sentence. :)

"Artillery is dishonorable against honorable targets."

The Clans sounds plenty of time shooting at things they consider unworthy of honor. Hell, for some of them its practically the national pastime. Pirates, mercs, civilians, tanks, forts, and so forth... perfectly fine to dump a mess of Arrows into them so you can hurry up and get back to the business of earning Bloodnames.
My wife writes books

Sixteen tons means sixteen suits. CT must be repaired.

"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul

Church14

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1163
The Naga was with the first wave Clan mechs.  The bigger question is why would the Clans make any artillery 'Mechs.   As portrayed at the time.  Arty is dishonourable. Hiding is dishonourable etc.  All that's really left is direct fire. As I dont recall if Arrow could do Ground to Air when introduced.  Its a lot of wasted resources for that Trueborn, to use now and again, in a trail against a pilot.

Yeah. Naga always struck me as weird. Naga II kind of helps.

Though the Naga T, where you fire your own artillery and then TAG the target yourself is a fantastically clan way of using artillery without quite understanding it.

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13377
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
"Artillery is dishonorable against honorable targets."

The Clans sounds plenty of time shooting at things they consider unworthy of honor. Hell, for some of them its practically the national pastime. Pirates, mercs, civilians, tanks, forts, and so forth... perfectly fine to dump a mess of Arrows into them so you can hurry up and get back to the business of earning Bloodnames.

And sometimes it's just a matter of expediency & not looking to take losses.

Pretty sure an Alpha Wolf Cluster used Artillery, Mines, Ambushes, & sniping from outside IS weapons range on an entrenched RCT during the invasion.   Tamar maybe?

And lets not forget Morges when they said, "no thanks, not charging those entrenched Falcon mechs", & unleased their ASF to strafe & bomb them into submission for a bit.
THEN the mechs rolled in to take out the few left functional & take captives.

And then there is the Adders, a clan that "No one wants to face on equal ground", because, they have never given up the idea of full combined arms use of all tools in the tool box & will happily use Arti against you & not feel bad about it because, you know, SLDF Descendants & such.

If I hadn't been a fan of the Wolves from first exposure in the Novels, I think the Horses & Adders would have been favorites with their "all options full military" Toumans.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Starfury

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 826
I'll add in another mech. The Falcon was supposed to be a bug hunter and heavy scout, but the introtech model has rear firing MGs and in some cases less firepower.  The 4P doesn't do much to fix this issue, so you either have the extinct Royal variants or Wolf Dragoon specific units to get your BV out. The Falcon C, aka the Drift Shag is a great exception to this rule

Highlighter

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 30
I'm not sure if the Clan Executioner was brought up, but I am bringing it up.  I love the idea of a (very) fast assault Mech and it visually looks great.  But that armor profile... Ugh. Only TWENTY points for the side torsos?  I understand that it operates amazingly as an BA carrier, where the BA act as ablative armor, but, man, please redistribute some of that 40-point leg armor to the torsos.

MarauderD

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4053
I'm not sure if the Clan Executioner was brought up, but I am bringing it up.  I love the idea of a (very) fast assault Mech and it visually looks great.  But that armor profile... Ugh. Only TWENTY points for the side torsos?  I understand that it operates amazingly as an BA carrier, where the BA act as ablative armor, but, man, please redistribute some of that 40-point leg armor to the torsos.

Executioner is one of those mechs that really shines after the transition to Alpha Strike.  The armor is good, speed is absurd for a 95 tonner, good damage profiles, etc.  Total AS gem mech, if you ever give that system a go.

Charistoph

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3784
I'm not sure if the Clan Executioner was brought up, but I am bringing it up.  I love the idea of a (very) fast assault Mech and it visually looks great.  But that armor profile... Ugh. Only TWENTY points for the side torsos?  I understand that it operates amazingly as an BA carrier, where the BA act as ablative armor, but, man, please redistribute some of that 40-point leg armor to the torsos.

I've mostly seen the Executioner as a hardy (when compared to a Fire Moth) and mobile Elemental Support Mech capable of doing maneuvers the Gargoyle can't.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

Starfury

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 826
The Executioner really thrives when it has room to move and is using a config with decent guns. Unfortunately the earlier configs don't always have the best weapons layout.

Hellraiser

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 13377
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
The Ex is fine when it's acting like an Oversized Grasshopper.

IE.  This is a mech designed to BRAWL.

It's very much an IS Mech Dream :)

Heavily Armored Legs & Rear Torso?  Yes please, because I'm going to be in the middle of 3 mechs & taking/receiving backshots & kicks.

What it doesn't shine at is trying to be a DireWolf-Light at 95 tons.
It's not a stand off & snipe from woods/partial cover mech, at best its okay at running around in circles, but a Viper is better for that.
It's not set up to park & take fire that will land frequently on those Side Torsos.

Run it like a Warhammer on steroids, shoot as you close then unleash the support guns at point blank & KICK something.

It needs to be doing the Shoot-Move-Communicate Boogie.   NOT the "You shall not pass!  Last Stand"
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

ColBosch

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8804
  • Legends Never Die
I compare the Executioner to the fast Inner Sphere Assault 'Mechs: Charger and Banshee. There's no denying it's far superior to either of those embarrassments.
BattleTech is a huge house, it's not any one fan's or "type" of fans.  If you need to relieve yourself, use the bathroom not another BattleTech fan. - nckestrel
1st and 2nd Succession Wars are not happy times. - klarg1

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 26177
  • Need a hand?
Not difficult when you're talking about two of the worst mechs in the game.  The Executioner still suffers badly under BV 2 thanks to the jump jet/MASC combo.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

Kit deSummersville

  • Precentor of Lies
  • Freelance Writer
  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10438
  • The epicness continues!
    • Insights and Complaints on Twitter
I compare the Executioner to the fast Inner Sphere Assault 'Mechs: Charger and Banshee. There's no denying it's far superior to either of those embarrassments.

Not these days; the Banshee can be a TSM ax wielding demon spotting for C3 snipers.
Looking for an official answer? Check the Catalyst Interaction Forums.

Freelancer for hire, not an official CGL or IMR representative.

Everyone else's job is easy, so tell them how to do it, everyone loves that!

Millard Fillmore's favorite BattleTech writer.

Greatclub

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3093
Grand Titan. Nice pile of guns that it can't use due to heat issues. If you use it by brackets it's kind of anemic for 100 tons.


SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 9652
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Yeah, it was trying to hard to be the everything mech.
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

Sabelkatten

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 6985
I submit to you the Komodo.

It's not that it's a bad Mech (an IS Nova is a great idea), but it fails at its stated role of anti-BA. Elementals require 11 points of damage to kill. How much damage does an ML do? That's right, 5 points! So it takes 3 hits to kill an Elemental. 6 MPLs (6 damage, and so only two hits needed; the extra one comes from needing fewer HSes)  will kill more Elementals under almost all circumstances, albeit at slightly shorter range - but you still outrage your targets' primary weapon and the MLs are in SRM range too.

On top of that, two AMSes, which aren't bad but probably aren't worth the weight for the mission and a TAG because why not.

As a light and medium hunter, it's great. As a knife-fighter, it's pretty scary. As a BA killer? I won't say it fails, but it could do much, much better.
Remember, Elementals originally only needed 10 damage to die (and the rules could be read to imply any "overkill" transferred to another suit as well, thought I don't think that was intended). It was changed to 11 points a few years later.

Greatclub

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3093
Yeah, it was trying to hard to be the everything mech.

Plus it was designed without the rules at hand, meaning the final (corrected) version is different from first published.

Wolf72

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3098
I will not tolerate any Hussar slander.

The Hussar was desinged to give AC-2 users a reason.  (not sure of the reason, but its there, whatever it might be!)
"We're caught in the moon's gravitational pull, what do we do?!"

CI KS #1357; Merc KS #9798

"We're sending a squad up."

 

Register