The real difference between Dropshuttles and DropShips

[Frabby]

In another thread here Cray mentioned a minor detail on the sidelines that I had completely overlooked so far but which may be a missing puzzle piece:

Dropshuttle bays are designed to carry Dropshuttles not only through a jump but also during transiting the system under thrust!
Remember that primitive JumpShips were more akin to WarShips in that they would not hang back at the jump point but travel into the system. Dropshuttle bays are effectively just super-large fighter bays. Their content counts as part of the JumpShip, not a separate vessel. (The structure must be ridiculously over-engineered.)

Looking at it this way may serve to explainan an old rules conundrum, namely that Dropshuttle bays and KF boom hardpoints are treated as incompatible. The former can only dock Dropshuttles for a jump, the latter only DropShips when for all we know about KF physics the tech should be the same.
In newer rulebooks it’s even said that DropShips are apparently backwards compatible after all, adding to the confusion: Dropshuttle bays can supposedly carry DropShips of up to 5,000 tons too.

Be confused no more.
It seems the core of the matter is that DropShips are indeed backwards compatible with regards to their docking collar, and can be carried through a jump in a Dropshuttle bay after all (provided they are small enough, ie. under 5,000 tons); but unlike Dropshuttles their structure and docking adapters are not built to be carried under thrust during transit like Dropshuttles. So the problem isn’t so much the KF coupling but rather the rest of the structure.

That would also explain how existing Dropshuttle designs could be remade into DropShips so easily, and how the more primitive Dropshuttle technology went essentially extinct in such a short timeframe: The existing Dropshuttle fleets didn’t have to be replaced and new fleets built up from the ground up, they could be retrofitted.
Solves a number of factchecking errors on the sidelines where published DropShip stats predate the introduction of the KF boom collar/hardpoint, or where Dropshuttles exceed their hard mass limit of 5,000 tons.

[Hellraiser]

One would assume the problem w/ standard dropship docking clamps v/s bays is the direction they are mounted in.

It's clear why DropShips can't be attached to a warship in the artwork.
Most every collar I've seen in Art is mounted along the spine, so when under thrust it's like traveling sideways aboard the DS which would cause all sorts of problems when gravity is now the "wall" & the clamps are trying to hold furniture down that is strapped to the roof, so to speak.

A Drop-Shuttle on the other hand doesn't have to mount in that direction & can easily be designed to have an internal facing where down is towards the engines & it maneuvers in at 0-g & docks on the bay "floor" like the Falcon being pulled into the Death Star.

A Drop-Shuttle of 5KT setting on the structure isn't any different than 5KT of cargo on the same floor.  Or 50 Mackies?  Right?

[Daryk]

The Scout, at least, gets an exception for that I think... ;)

[Hellraiser]

The Scout, at least, gets an exception for that I think... ;)

How come?

[Daryk]

The fluff long described it as being able to maneuver with a docked ship.

[Frabby]

The Scout, at least, gets an exception for that I think... ;)

But it kinda reinforces my point. The fluff makes it clear that DropShips can only be carried under zero gravity or microgravity (station keeping thrust). Only the Scout is fluffed to be an exception, featuring a reinforced hardpoint that can sustain 0.1 g of thrust (0.2 thrust points under game rules, ie. effectively 0) with a DropShip attached, provided it is a relatively small DropShip of no more than 25,000 tons.

[Hellraiser]

Cool, I don't even recall that in the fluff.

Just that the Scout itself had no Grav Deck so they had to use the SK-Drive to simulate a small amount of artificial gravity for the JS Crew.

I would actually assume that given how small the amount of gravity created by SK drives that most ships could, in theory, maneuver w/ DS attached at that rate.

The big problem would be a Warship w/ 1G+ thrust rates.

[Maingunnery]

Most every collar I've seen in Art is mounted along the spine, so when under thrust it's like traveling sideways aboard the DS which would cause all sorts of problems when gravity is now the "wall" & the clamps are trying to hold furniture down that is strapped to the roof, so to speak.

The primary problem would be that the collar would break from going way beyond station-keeping thrust, the internal arrangement should not be a big problem. The reason for this is that all BT space vessels can decelerate and make turns, so any surface might become a "floor" without any warning. So all transport bays would need to rapidly secure their content (including mech-limbs), personnel should always fixate any equipment (magnetically or by wire), limited corridor dimensions (to prevent long falls), many hand-holds in reach, and deployable safety nets around gantries to prevent accidents.   

[Daryk]

The Scout deck plans I started working on years ago (and lost on a thumb drive) oriented the docking collar such that the DropShip was pointed in the same direction as the JumpShip...

[Hellraiser]

That really doesn't look any different than any other docking collar to me & certainly not oriented towards the nose.
But maybe its a bit "deeper" into the hull based on the black circle there & as such, it's not quite so "hang on by fingernails" feel when under station keeping thrust?

[Hellraiser]

The reason for this is that all BT space vessels can decelerate and make turns, so any surface might become a "floor" without any warning.

You lost me.
Dropship (Warships) decelerate by cutting thrust, flipping over, & "accelerating" "away" from the target.
You shouldn't have any "wall is floor" scenarios till you enter atmosphere which is what the Avenger fluff covers as its one of the few Aerodyne DS that doesn't have a 2nd Transit drive & is always flying like a fighter/aerodyne instead of the way they fluff a Leopard DS.

[Daryk]

I took the "door" looking part from DS&JS and folded it out as a "floor".

[Maingunnery]

You lost me.
Dropship (Warships) decelerate by cutting thrust, flipping over, & "accelerating" "away" from the target.
You shouldn't have any "wall is floor" scenarios till you enter atmosphere which is what the Avenger fluff covers as its one of the few Aerodyne DS that doesn't have a 2nd Transit drive & is always flying like a fighter/aerodyne instead of the way they fluff a Leopard DS.

Flipping over in space doesn't happen by magic, it requires substantial auxiliary thrusters or redirecting thrust. Also decelerating in space does not require flipping over, that is just one way to decelerate. Also rolling would also create some noticeable centrifugal forces.   
So if anything is not secure then you can easily get injuries or even death. Dropships without the earlier noted measures are just deathtraps.

[Hellraiser]

Agreed that you need safety measures.  I wasn't disputing that.

That said, Not sure sure how much gravity is created when they flip.
I seem to recall one of the books years ago talking about a transit & noting that they announced maneuvers like that ahead of time, much like a warning countdown to KF-Jump.
People strapped into G-Couches for any actual maneuvers IIRC & the time that a flip occurred actually had the thrusters being off for several minutes or an hour.
IE.  It wasn't some sudden G-Forces wrenching highspeed turn in a sports car or jet fighter.
More like,  We will be loosing gravity at Noon Ship Time today, in 3 hours, then again, at 1 hour, & 15 minutes prior, etc etc...
Then a period of 0-G (limited-G) while the ship "flips", I forget what source but I swear I read this was like 30 minutes or something.
And finally, we will return to gravity in X-Minutes.   
IE, just like any Airliner putting on the seatbelts sign when they see a storm ahead or a cruise ship casting off from dock.
It's organized, planned for, & done slowly w/ plenty of warning to store all those knives/wrenches when they apply maneuver jets at .05-G to spin or whatever.

[AlphaMirage]

I think it was in the fluff for Strategic Ops. Basically everything is always strapped down or in lockers aboard a space ship because acceleration and hasty maneuvers could damage anything and that thing could be vital.

When turnover happens its always coordinated well in advance and they probably burn the maneuvering thrusters (or adjust the tilt of the thrust cone) for a little while to get that initial rotation going. Then they have a party and by the time the party is over they are in or near the new correct orientation and everything goes back to 'normal' just in the opposite direction.

[glitterboy2098]

i doubt that they run the thrusters hard enough to generate significant g forces, even from centripital force. they probably space it out over several hours, for safety. maybe even a full day, for the warships. then they probably take even more time fine tuning the orientation to ensure they stay on the right course while burning for the decel.

[Maingunnery]

i doubt that they run the thrusters hard enough to generate significant g forces, even from centripital force. they probably space it out over several hours, for safety. maybe even a full day, for the warships. then they probably take even more time fine tuning the orientation to ensure they stay on the right course while burning for the decel.

Crews can take their time when nothing happens. But that is a luxury that can't be guaranteed as a emergency or combat can always suddenly happen. If the rules are anything close to correct then there are significant forces in various directions.
The maneuverability and sizes of some vessels in Battletech are pretty extreme for a setting without gravity/momentum technology.

[Daryk]

Hellraiser: I think mention was made of a "Maneuvering alarm" for that purpose.

[Hellraiser]

Aye.

Vessels going into Combat should have plenty of warning (in theory) as they approach a target that everyone is buckled into a G-Couch & loose objects have long been put away.  Sensors should tell them if something is approaching across millions of miles of black space.

Vessels on casual merchant transport routes have plenty of warning for any maneuvers they do as part of their trip in system, insert Airline Seatbelts sign & Love Boat cast off scenes here.

Which basically leaves us with last second "Emergency/Surprise" Scenarios which shouldn't be an every day kind of thing.

[Maingunnery]

Aye.

Vessels going into Combat should have plenty of warning (in theory) as they approach a target that everyone is buckled into a G-Couch & loose objects have long been put away.  Sensors should tell them if something is approaching across millions of miles of black space.

Vessels on casual merchant transport routes have plenty of warning for any maneuvers they do as part of their trip in system, insert Airline Seatbelts sign & Love Boat cast off scenes here.

Which basically leaves us with last second "Emergency/Surprise" Scenarios which shouldn't be an every day kind of thing.

By that logic one could stop using seatbelts in cars, one should not assume that things go right, one should assume that the unforeseen can happen. Heck it could be something as basic as a crewmember pressing the wrong button or inputting the wrong value.

[Hellraiser]

By that logic one could stop using seatbelts in cars, one should not assume that things go right, one should assume that the unforeseen can happen. Heck it could be something as basic as a crewmember pressing the wrong button or inputting the wrong value.

I feel like your still arguing for safety standards & we've already stated that YES those should/do exist, Repeatedly. 

But also stated that needing them is going to be very rare.

This isn't a car that is traveling w/ a million other cars at all hours of the day on a crowded road in rush hour hooking a right hand turn at 25mph or even swerving in & out of lanes on the freeway during the entire commute.   

[EPG]

i doubt that they run the thrusters hard enough to generate significant g forces, even from centripital force. they probably space it out over several hours, for safety. maybe even a full day, for the warships. then they probably take even more time fine tuning the orientation to ensure they stay on the right course while burning for the decel.

You don’t need hours or a day to significantly reduce the g forces from doing a rollover maneuver - even a 1.5 km long battleship can do one in 5-10 minutes (5 minutes if everything is secured and you do it ‘military quick’ and 10 minutes for one that you gradually ease into where the direction of gravity switches slowly.  Either way things never get above 1 G for the furthest out ends in an end over end turn, where the whole ship rotates about a center point and the nose occupies the place the engines used to be in and vice versas.  The direction of that gravity changes for everyone but it’s only zero in the center where the ship is rotating at. 

In a military ship, where everyone’s at general quarters and ready to rock and roll, you could make maneuvers like this at ~ 4 G and knock it out in just over a minute if you really had to (ex to reverse the ship and being the guns or best armor to bear on some major threat behind you)

Rolling the ship can be done while under normal thrust, so the primary direction of gravity doesn’t change, and realistically you can’t roll it fast enough to bother the people on the ship.  It’s not going to be any worse than walking in an airliner while it’s entering or exiting its bank for a turn, and in some ways better/easier because unlike the airliner the ‘normal’ direction of gravity doesn’t change at ALL when the ship rolls like this. 

G forces on a warship or dropship maneuvering in combat could get VERY considerable but that’s why you have general quarters and trained crews.

[DevianID]

There is no amount of g force that is safe with an attached dropship though.  It doesn't matter if the turn is only .1 g, the sheer force on the edge where the dropship attaches is just too high.  Like soneone else said, a dropshuttle inside the ship on the weightbearing hull is fine, like doing a squat with weight distributed on the back.  But holding weight at an arms length, even if you can squat that weight no problem, there is no chance you can hold your arm out straight with that same weight so far off center mass.  The amount of extra stress is crazy high despite the weight not changing.  Any thrust, no matter how little, is applied to 2k-100k tons of mass at a terrible angle.  Even a gentle .01g rotation when multiplied by a 3k ton small dropship is 30 tons of bending force.  Steel has a great compressive strength, but it doesn't apply to lateral loads.

[Hellraiser]

You don’t need hours or a day to significantly reduce the g forces from doing a rollover maneuver -......

There is no amount of g force that is safe with an attached dropship though.

1.  No where did EPG talk about doing anything w/ an attached dropship.
EPG mentioned rolls & flips & the effects on the people inside.


2.  I can't actually think of a time you would need to roll or flip w/ a DS attached. 

Actually, I guess if it was locked in place & couldn't detach & you needed to clear the Jump Zone or maneuver to attach to a space station for repairs.

But as you noted, you basically need to do that at such a low thrust that your barely moving. 
Like "inching" along every minute.
Forget .01G,  call it .0001G,  you don't even use the main thruster, you use those little attitude adjustment thrusters.

[EPG]

1.  No where did EPG talk about doing anything w/ an attached dropship.
EPG mentioned rolls & flips & the effects on the people inside.


2.  I can't actually think of a time you would need to roll or flip w/ a DS attached. 

Actually, I guess if it was locked in place & couldn't detach & you needed to clear the Jump Zone or maneuver to attach to a space station for repairs.

But as you noted, you basically need to do that at such a low thrust that your barely moving. 
Like "inching" along every minute.
Forget .01G,  call it .0001G,  you don't even use the main thruster, you use those little attitude adjustment thrusters.

Yeah I meant limitations for people in the warship.  You would have to undock your dropships before doing that stuff. But dropships are perfectly capable of maneuvering in a planetary system (it’s what they do!) so this isn’t exactly a problem. 

There actually could be reasons to leave the dropships  connected under thrust.  It could be very advantageous for a warship to be able to carry its dropships with it for a planetary assault, either to reduce the complexity of getting everything to the right place and time, or so that people and equipment can shuttle into the dropships at the last moment before the assault.  You can’t actually do that with the rules as written.

[DevianID]

There actually could be reasons to leave the dropships  connected under thrust.

Yeah but this is the part that cant be done.  Even beyond the rules, the lateral force on the docking collar would rip the dropship collar off like a crowbar, because all dropships are externally mounted and engine thrust would work like a very long lever at a cross section not in plane with the compressive strength.

For the people in the ships, yeah people need to be strapped in during combat or maneuvers.  The ships length isnt so much a problem, unless the ship decides it wants it to be.  Like, a saboteur could override helm and start spinning the ship, never countering the rotational acceleration, as it spins faster and faster until it kills the crew and rips the ship in half.  And any amount of thrust, even .01g, gets spinning too fast eventually, so its only by safety measures that ships dont spin out of control.

There was an expanse episode where a ship accelerated beyond the pilots ability to control, killing him.  It would be likely that word of blake spies could implant such a spin 'kill command' in rival comstar ships to disable them, among other ways to kill the crew by sabotage.

[EPG]

Yeah but this is the part that cant be done.  Even beyond the rules, the lateral force on the docking collar would rip the dropship collar off like a crowbar, because all dropships are externally mounted and engine thrust would work like a very long lever at a cross section not in plane with the compressive strength.

For the people in the ships, yeah people need to be strapped in during combat or maneuvers.  The ships length isnt so much a problem, unless the ship decides it wants it to be.  Like, a saboteur could override helm and start spinning the ship, never countering the rotational acceleration, as it spins faster and faster until it kills the crew and rips the ship in half.  And any amount of thrust, even .01g, gets spinning too fast eventually, so its only by safety measures that ships dont spin out of control.

There was an expanse episode where a ship accelerated beyond the pilots ability to control, killing him.  It would be likely that word of blake spies could implant such a spin 'kill command' in rival comstar ships to disable them, among other ways to kill the crew by sabotage.

Like I said - theres reasons that you would want to do it.  Rules and real life both indicate it’s not going to happen.

Battletech sort of fluffs away momentum in space - angular and otherwise.  IRL, after a battle or accident of some sort in space everything involved is going to fly away from the scene at very significant velocities inless the circumstances of the battle were very unusual  - you havd beengot maybe 30 minutes to an hour to rescue pilots, corral disabled ships, etc, and after that they’re going to be scattered throughout a solar system, and going to take a major dedicated effort to run down, and even get to much less slow down and salvage.  Very few are going to wind up in an orbit. Wrecked ships from old battles aren’t usually going to even be in the same star system a hundred years later, much less in a stable orbit.

Some of the ones you do find will be spinning/tumbling in ways that when combined with their general velocity vector will make them physically impossible to board with  by living people on a crewed vessel.

[DevianID]

The best part of btech ships is the ficton, not the gameplay IMHO.  Like, a warship that's nearly impossible to salvage because of damaged induced spin/tumble, but still in orbit around a planet as that is where it fought and died, is a great little detail as part of a story.

The actual tabletop rules for warships, like you point out, involve both parties agreeing to kinda stay still, as even on 4 paper maps a union flies out of bounds in only 3-4 turns, and is almost impossible to catch back up with if you were going the opposite direction.  Its only when the players agree to mostly meet in the middle and stay there that you can even have a space combat due to the cumbersome rules, and even then you still get uncontrolled breakaways that accidently fly themselves off the map.  Xwing honestly had a better space game as the ships have momentum with the movement dial, and bumps with the board edge and other fighters is handled pretty well in an interactive gamified way.  Tracking velocity in battlespace isnt even realistic, so the mechanic overall is best used in fiction where you can tell a story without the finicky battlespace combat rules getting in the way of storytelling. 

Like, I think the rules for thrust hit/no left turns would be way more interesting if that meant something more impactful, but like you said battlespace combat ends like a sitcom in a lot of ways, where the 'status quo' returns after the battle.  But the story of sailing a warship that cant turn left after a battle?  That is a more interesting story to me, and while there are some minor rules to support thruster damage, its gonna have to be all fiction to make it engaging/entertaining.

[Hellraiser]

or so that people and equipment can shuttle into the dropships at the last moment before the assault.

Technically you can.
I don't know of anything that precludes you from moving small craft in between ships.
At the very least, you can make some changes at the 1/2 way "flip" point when everyone has cut their engines for a while.

[EPG]

Technically you can.
I don't know of anything that precludes you from moving small craft in between ships.
At the very least, you can make some changes at the 1/2 way "flip" point when everyone has cut their engines for a while.

You can, and that’s great for some urgent last minute stuff but it’s not the same as the whole infantry regiment getting fresh navy chow, 2 to a room staterooms while  doing calesthenics and mock attack drills in a 100,000 ton warship bay until 2 hrs before planned assault then jumping into the dropship.  That’s the sort of thing that if it were possible (it’s not) would be a major change.