The economy of the Clans

[Reaved]

Where should I look if I want to understand the economy of the Clans?

[cmerwin]

It's basically a controlled centralized economy with a few oddities like futures trading. But if you are looking for sources, I'd say the two most comprehensive are The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky and MechWarrior's Guide to the Clans.

[shinr]

Didn't the Wars of Reaving book provided an admittedly simplified explanation of how Clan Macro-Economy works?

Something like a Clan needs to have X amount of resources to break even, but it is actually Y when considering the resources spent to protect those resources from other Clans, along with risks/rewards of raiding other clans?

[Geg]

With the (re)introduction of the Free Guilds and the view of Strana Mechty in the Icons of War, we clearly have a very incomplete picture of how civilian society in the Kerensky Cluster works.  For the military-industrial complex it looks like a late Roman model where the Clan collects taxes in the form of goods and services from its enclaves. Potentially paying in currency for any excess that they need in currency, credits, or flat out appropriations (aka theft).  It looks like large sectors of the civilian economy might be largely "hidden" and its off the books nature gives rise to the dark caste as an local criminal element in addition to its exiled military force elements.

[BrianDavion]

with that said please understand that the term "FASAnomics" exists for a reason, generally the economy in battletech doesn't with a deep dive, always make a lot of sense

[cmerwin]

Didn't the Wars of Reaving book provided an admittedly simplified explanation of how Clan Macro-Economy works?

Something like a Clan needs to have X amount of resources to break even, but it is actually Y when considering the resources spent to protect those resources from other Clans, along with risks/rewards of raiding other clans?

You're right, and there is a little bit of discussion of trying to recover their battered economies. But you bring up the bigger point that post-Reaving, probably even post-Invasion, the Clans probably went through a massive overhaul to how their economies work, especially the Inner Sphere Clans that now have access to resource rich worlds they didn't have access to in the Homeworlds.

My guess would be that each Clan, especially IS Clans, probably still maintains their pseudo-communist economic model. Things are requisitioned, things get distributed according to need, and there is still the strong Clan prohibition against waste, even in resource rich environments.

[Alan Grant]

The core book you want is "The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky". It breaks it down very well. Probably answer 90+% of your questions right there.

[cmerwin]

The core book you want is "The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky". It breaks it down very well. Probably answer 90+% of your questions right there.

Yeah, now that I am home and can look, Mechwarrior's Guide to the Clans section on money is a verbatim copy of WoK and without the section on Finance.

[JAMES_PRYDE]

And then Sea Fox is a whole new level lol 

And also in the same vein, the AML

[Metallgewitter]

By now you also have to divide between the Homeworld Clans economy and the IS clan economy. As others stated the Invader Clans had to adopt their policies massively as Is workers were (at least partially) prone to strike, work halfheartedly or even do some industrial pranking when the Clans ignored their demands. The Foxes were always the odd man out of all the Clans as their merchants basically dictated what the warriors had to do and not the other way around.

WoR describes that most Clans don't even prodcue enough to last them a month. The rest is gathered by trialing and each trial causes a "ripple effect" through the entire Clan Homeworlds which is supported by the instantenous nature of HPG communication. The article also surmises that a breakdown of the HPG's would collapse the entire system which was proven all so well in WoR. Though all Is clans have now more or less adapted to the Is economy and they even sell their wares to other nations (well those deemed for Export anyway). Heck you could say the Foxes have become the merchants of war at this point with their roving fleets selling their wares to those who can afford them. Or even acting as a reseller of cheaper gear like the Cadaver battle mech

[butchbird]

What we know of clan society also points to the fact that all the industrial engineering (that I,ve mostly seen qualified by the broader term "buisness managment" in english) concepts following the realization in the 1970s that overproduction (mind you, some of those concepts were already being developped in the 1920s) was a thing were pretty influencial in the way the clans inner workings were tought out.

Now my introductory courses on the subject get further away each year and my memory isn't the best, but 2 or 3 examples just to give a general idea...

WoR describes that most Clans don't even prodcue enough to last them a month.

This part underlines how much "Just in time production" is ingrained in the clans conception of economy. Realistically, this doctrine often produces huge bottlenecks and other distruption, but such things can be ignored for the purpose of the BTU.

"The clans abhore waste" is a well known fact. In the workings of this we see the strong influence of "lean manufacturing/management". Of course, the whole trialing aspect adds another layer, but consider all that must be put in place when a factory or a mine changes hands. Suddenly, you have the whole supply chain to be completely reworked for the 2 belligerents.

And not necessarily purely ECONOMICAL but having an influence on it, the parallels one can make between clan society and big companies (some of them having become "states within the state") like samsung is quite troubling. Now, as I said, I only got the introductory courses and my memory is faulty so I can't elaborate that much anymore, but the whole "manage it like a sect, notably by encouraging a breaking of the family for a greater integration whithin the company" (mind you that's my interpretation of it, but the teacher looked horribly uncomfortable when I underlined this and didn't reply) thing, notably, allows to see how you can make links.

*add-on*

Now I fear this isn't a good day for me as far as clarity of thought is concerned and I'm writing this through chores, but I've always found this a very interesting subject, so a few more things while trying not to skirt too close to rule number 4.

As has also been pointed out, the clans have a centralised economy (with "dark zones", of course). So take the sea foxes, whom seem to bring clan economics to its logical conclusion. There current method can be linked to a current "mostly centralized economy" that holds much sway in the run of things internationally and which doesn't shy away from overproduction for a variety of reasons.

Through their overproduction and subsequent liquidating of assets once the stocks become too great, they can heavily influence the international market when they do liquidate. Then look at what's happening with the sea foxes growing hold on many types of markets.

Of course, the sea foxes are distinct in their running of things, but they still use the same basis. And this must have been true since the clans caught their "air d'aller". After all, each clan is but a "state within the state" of the greater clan organization. On top is the "warrior democracy" reminiscent of many dark age "barbarian" hordes, underneath is the whole corporate entity, for each clan is but an armament company...heck, trueborns are basically a product to be consumed by said corporate entity...so then, whom is truely in charge? And that osmosis inevitably affects the conception of the economy.

Wish I could be more concise here...but I guess this is enough to draft a drift.

Ah yes, last thing to support my extapolated drivel...consider Jordan Weisman, consider the other flagship FASA product that is shadowrun and its (from what I know, haven't been in contact with it much) focus on corporate structures and their stranglehold on sociey.

[Metallgewitter]

In a way the merchants in general hold a lot of sway withjin the Clans. The crude example of the SLDF ambassador in Clan space showed it:

Clan A's mine runs out of ore. The merchants are now calculating what is cheaper: opening a new mine or trial another clan for theirs? Well what do you know trialing is cheaper so let's do that. Clan A wins and now has again material for Mech production while also something extra to trade with while Clanb B must now decide what to do. And this seems rather short term thinking. Trial for what is there instead of exploring new resources. Then again, new rersources require more investment and in a culture where you can easily loose such big investments it might be better to just do the warrior thing over and over again. Though the After-refusal trial wars show that the Clans began to change when their trials included the prizes which were often damaged or even destroyed. Basically turning the Clans into SW 1 states

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

Mine example is good but it's not universal

Quite a few times it would be more expedient to to open new mine in a zone you control if it happens to be on a less desirable planet where new owner would have to invest extra time, personnel and resources to make it worth while you would have the home planet advantage (example: underwater ore fields of Dagda)



Also it's interesting to see how corporate culture is developing in exiled Clans

Snow Ravens have joint corporate enterprises with Outworlders

Goliath Scorpions saw homegrown corporations and banks springing up in merchant and technician castes due to population size even though neither they nor Castilians had anything like it before

Jade Falcons built massive mobile banks as a response to Blackout and collapse of currencies and trade

And then we have Sea Foxes who morphed into nation sized corporation(s) themselves, like Samsung going out control to use butchbird's example

[butchbird]

I might be mistaken, but I seem to remember that it was implied in WoR that the production of primary ressources was stagnating if not dropping before that war's destruction. So while there would inevitably be investments of a more pacific nature to expand one clan's output, the home clans were mostly in a closed cycle, which kept the use of military hardware as the prime mean of "expansion", which inevitably was more of a stagnation.

As for the "investing extra time, personnel and ressources on a less desirable planet", don't at least part of the work force and "supporting assets" also come with a successful trial for an industry?

Goliath Scorpions saw homegrown corporations and banks springing up in merchant and technician castes due to population size even though neither they nor Castilians had anything like it before

Interesting bit of info that, don't remember anything reading about it...which book talks about it?

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

....
Interesting bit of info that, don't remember anything reading about it...which book talks about it?

Touring The Stars: Granada or Valencia (one of those two, can't remember which exactly)

Corporations and banks started appearing after several decades of Scorpion rule

Warriors think it's weird but they roll with it because it keeps population happy and sends even more money into military budget

Population, economy size and new HPG network would have been important factors for creation of them

CEOs here definitely don't get paychecks like their colleagues elsewhere (still definitely decent money) but in Clan society accomplishments in person's respective field directly translate into very tangible political influence and reputation within their caste and sometimes beyond so this would be important driver for these folks

[Metallgewitter]

Yeah, when you trial for an enclave you usually also get the personnel (if they are included into the trial I suppose)

What should not be forgotten is that a lot of planets within the Kerensky Cluster are mostly untouched. Clan enclaves usually center around the space port or firebases and that's basically it. You won't find small villages or cities like in the Is or Periphery. So in theory the planets might hold resources the Clans don't know about becauser no one has gone prospecting

[Natasha Kerensky]

These posts and the discussions around them may help. 

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=75902.msg1795089#msg1795089

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=72114.msg1891457#msg1891457

Folks upthread have pointed to the right sources.  But if you read the canon carefully and critically, you shouldn’t come away with the conclusion that the Clan economy is centralized.  The Clan economy is decentralized.  It’s 20 (minus however many Clans have ceased to exist at any point in time) separate economies that compete with each other in a loose confederacy of frenemies.  And decisionmaking within each of those 20 economies is distributed across castes in a hierarchy of Clan councils.

Most/all property within the Clans is communally owned.  In the real world, that often goes hand in hand with a centralized economic decisionmaking (the Soviet model).  But it doesn’t have to, and Clan economic decisionmaking is pretty decentralized, maybe too much so.

Also, although property is communally owned, the Clans employ a lot of capitalism — Falcon bankers, Shark/Fox market-makers, Bear industrial/agricultural investment, etc. — to maximize the use of that property in their competition with each other.  It’s really a hybrid socialist/capitalist model.

FWIW… hope this helps.

[Church14]

I don’t know if it obeys canon, but my headcanon for clan enclaves is that most are self sufficient, so when the owners change, they hold up economically. The ones that aren’t must trade with specific other enclaves regardless of the township situation of both

[butchbird]

Folks upthread have pointed to the right sources.  But if you read the canon carefully and critically, you shouldn’t come away with the conclusion that the Clan economy is centralized.  The Clan economy is decentralized.  It’s 20 (minus however many Clans have ceased to exist at any point in time) separate economies that compete with each other in a loose confederacy of frenemies.  And decisionmaking within each of those 20 economies is distributed across castes in a hierarchy of Clan councils.

Most/all property within the Clans is communally owned.  In the real world, that often goes hand in hand with a centralized economic decisionmaking (the Soviet model).  But it doesn’t have to, and Clan economic decisionmaking is pretty decentralized, maybe too much so.

Then again, what is centralized and what isn't? In the end, in most societys that claimed themselves marxist, once a point was reached, there was less and less centralization, hence how corruption and inefficiency (well...not to say things where necessarily THAT efficient in the first place but thats a very complex subject) started taking root. Decision making was also less centralized then we'd generally think, hence how some individuals managed to take so much wealth for themselves when big reforms were implemented, or when the system crumbled.

Once an economy becomes sufficiently divers, there's limits to what the "centralizing agency" can properly manage.

And then, while you're entirely right about the fact that there are 20 (depending on the era) economys competing whithin the closed system, each individual economy is theoreticaly controlled by its attached entity. If one buys in to the theory that each clan is, as best as can be categorized by todays concepts, a corporate entity rather then a nation-state or something more similar to what we consider a nation/kingdom/socialist republic, it must also take into account that such entitys end up taking a life of their own. While this is nebulous in most aspects, it is clearly seen in a most practical and palpable aspect of our own reality: the legal one.

[rebs]

Didn't the Wars of Reaving book provided an admittedly simplified explanation of how Clan Macro-Economy works?

Page 26 and 27 of WoR.  A two page piece called Life on the Knife Edge detailing how Clans and enclaves operate on a level that only comes off as basic.  If basic means "sound core principles with good analogies" then it's basic.

Very good one, I just pulled it up. 

Edit: WoR is still a Top 5 sourcebook for me.  What a rich bed for stories, game background and setups, etc... 

[butchbird]

Page 26 and 27 of WoR.  A two page piece called Life on the Knife Edge detailing how Clans and enclaves operate on a level that only comes off as basic.  If basic means "sound core principles with good analogies" then it's basic.

Wonderful reference for the subject at hand indeed.

Something somewhat related to clan economics just popped in my head and won't let me keep silence, so some food for thought.

Centralized or decentralized, the fact is that clan economics is "state-planned" to a degree sufficient to warrant debate. For what falls out of the "state's vision", it can be sumized that the very vaguely described and known (unless I missed something major) "dark caste" will attempt to provide.

So a brief historical fact.

In the USSR of the 1970s, denim jeans were a very sought after item but the state economy did not produce any. To paliate, or profit from, the demand, a very large black market then developped itself to provide said item to individuals seeking such pants.

[Metallgewitter]

I think what also must be taken into consideration is that the Clan way of life is rather spartan (at least that is my impression from most of the sourcebooks I read). So you won't find "light industry" that focuses on entertainment like handheld consoles and other stuff. Heck I am not even sure they produce clothes that are meant to be flashy (you know for formal parties and stuff like that). It is a focus on the essentials as Nicolas Kerensky dictated. You might have the odd Clansman or woman who collects luxury items but they are the oddballs not the rule.I think this runs true till this day. Though of course the Clans are not above using luxury items when they have them (best example I found would be the planet Weingarten with it's huge vine yards and wine production. The Wolf merchants happily took that to make some extra income) they don't seem to actively encourage production of said items. Of course Clans like the Bears and Ravens might now view it differently

[rebs]

Centralized or decentralized, the fact is that clan economics is "state-planned" to a degree sufficient to warrant debate. For what falls out of the "state's vision", it can be sumized that the very vaguely described and known (unless I missed something major) "dark caste" will attempt to provide.

The Free Guilds mentioned long ago but then dropped have been implemented now -- as an aside I think we just approach them as though they were always there and just didn't receive mention.  Anyway, Clan merchant castes can contract with them for additional production capacity or sources from which to procure additional commodities and resources.  They have strong Dark Caste ties very often, so it all tracks.

That is definitely a constant source of contact between the Dark and the rest of Clan apparatus. 

[Geg]

The Free Guilds mentioned long ago but then dropped have been implemented now -- as an aside I think we just approach them as though they were always there and just didn't receive mention.  Anyway, Clan merchant castes can contract with them for additional production capacity or sources from which to procure additional commodities and resources.  They have strong Dark Caste ties very often, so it all tracks.

That is definitely a constant source of contact between the Dark and the rest of Clan apparatus.

I know we won't ever get nearly the level of detail to see how it actually all works. But it certainly looks like the centralized and planned Clan "Palace" Economy might be deeply overshadowed by a much larger, but hidden market economy, facilitated by the free guilds.  Primarily because its doesn't seam like the laborer caste is all that busy, so there is space for people figure out how to invest in themselves and in their families.

Also. 

The talk of communal ownership doesn't feel like its a good descriptor in the post FASA days. All critical industry seams to be state owned, but this still operates along side of effective private ownership of other economic assets ala the Free Guild and at least one Bar.

[rebs]

The Free Guilds who are involved with heavy industries are more like guarantors with deeds of warranty who actually own nothing that the state cannot seize if need be.  They take care of it and keep things running and they get left alone as one of the major rewards. 

And the warriors are probably all too happy to pay absolutely no attention to what laborers do and leave it for the scientists and techs to coordinate.

Unless it directly affects them, then the Jags will choose to bombard from orbit for example.

[Metallgewitter]

Just wanted to add this:

in the dissertation from the woR book it states that no Clan overproduces. They just produce enough with the exception of the then Diamond Sharks who produce extra quantities which they then trade to other Clans. So as stated before a very centralized command economy within each Clan (or in case of the fire Mandrills several economies within the SAME Clan) and no central overall Clan economy like for example in the Inner Sphere where interstellar trade is still ongoing despite all the animosities. And from here we pivot to the IS Clans. I think you could say that for Clans like the Jade Falcons and Wolves the coporations they inherited (like Olivetti) are now "state owned" and they serve the Clan period. But then you also have the other side with the Bears and Ravens who let their companies like Bergan Industries or Joint Equipment Systems do their own thing as long as they don't rock the boat. Which for example led to a high level of corruption within the Bear merchant caste when they were hit with the ruthless side of capitalism.

[The Wobbly Guy]

What is the ultimate purpose of the economy in the context of the clans?

Ans: To feed their war machine.

The warriors don't really care about the minutiae of 'ruling' (regulations, etc) as long as they still get their war goodies and get on with the more important aspects of life - trialing, dueling etc.

Other than the Free Guilds, there is no private sector. Each department (eg. factory producing communications widgets, farm producing carbs to be processed into food bars etc) is state owned, but free to use whatever methods they deem necessary to achieve their targets, and there is widespread deprivation throughout the clan economy. Not to say it's socialism - there would be incentives in place to exhort greater efforts (top 5% producers get extra rations!). And of course we already have canon explanations for why the civilians are tolerant of such living standards instead of rioting over the inequality - all for the Great Cause.

The point about overproducing is a bit awkward - you can never produce too many war machines. What I interpret from that is a bit different: the Sharks intentionally hold back some of their production from just feeding into their own war machine and use it to trade based on comparative advantage.

[Geg]

in the dissertation from the woR book it states that no Clan overproduces.

This is no different than a run of the mill 21st century corporation that looks at the size of the market, their market share, growth projections, and manufactures just enough to meet those need and a quarter to quarter focus on results....  that then gets totally disrupted for years by something like a pandemic and subsequent massive logistical issues. 

The only difference is that clans don't buy new resources with money.  They spend military hardware, training time, and lives, and rather than trying to maximize profits they are trying to maximize military power, which they can then invest into taking control of more economic resources.

[Metallgewitter]

It does sound strange. The Clans allegedly only produce enough to maintain each member of their Clan in accordance per Kerensky's principles. The merchants most important task is to monitor the production quotas because this balance can be easily disturbed by unexpected events (most extreme case was shown in the WoR itself, a total blackout of the HPG's). Furthermore many Clans can barely operate on a month to month basis. The Sharks are producing enough for their Clan and that little extra they can use as bargaining chips.

So in essence no Clan builds a stock of material which means that even a mild famine can disrupt the life of a Clan (that example was from the Jaguars when a mild famine on Londerholm escalated quickly). I wonde rif this extends to the sibkos of the Clans: we only produce so many trueborn children to replenish expected looses. We don't want more clusters, those cost too much to equip!

[Fire Scorpion IIC]

.....
So in essence no Clan builds a stock of material which means that even a mild famine can disrupt the life of a Clan (that example was from the Jaguars when a mild famine on Londerholm escalated quickly). I wonde rif this extends to the sibkos of the Clans: we only produce so many trueborn children to replenish expected looses. We don't want more clusters, those cost too much to equip!

They are not that stingy

Anyone who knows anything about agriculture will tell you that you can't precisely tweak crop yield per harvest, not even in medium size garden let alone anything bigger

Too many variables, you have to aim for surplus

Also Londenholm wasn't a famine, Jaguar warriors were selling massive amounts of food slated for their civilians (probably for weapons) and created artificial food shortage

Agriculture was not the point of failure, it was classic Jaguar dumbassery

Every single other Clan was flabbergasted when they saw what was happening

Regular Clans don't have issues with keeping their population fed, if Hellions and Scorpions were able to grow enough food in wastelands they lived in then Clans living in nicer places would have had even fewer problems with it