Author Topic: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars  (Read 40104 times)

Daryk

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #840 on: 21 September 2024, 17:03:49 »
There's a concerted effort to NOT do that, but what it's resulting in is an effort to procure to fight the third or fourth war ago... ;D

Failure16

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #841 on: 21 September 2024, 17:12:55 »
I read the one where the Vice President sold out the US to the Soviets and caused WWIII, and just shook my head through the whole novel.  Not that I wouldn't love to see more F-16 love, because damn if that book didn't enjoy the Fighting Falcon so much.  It was just the absurdity of the situation, and how impossibly great Wingman was - mastering flying a V-22 from never having seen one in a single day, for example, is something I'll never forget.

Sky Wolf could easily be the name of the helicopter, relabeling the ADV Blue Wolf for the sky theme.  And that belly launcher...I figured the ATGM(L) launcher and the four LAAMs were a fair compromise for the tribarrel missile pod, though I don't disagree with you about having a rocket pack.  Blue Wolf puts all its money on its engines, though, and goes balls-out for a helicopter at 390km/h.  She's as much scout, with that basic stealth, as she is gunship - and with those four AAMs, makes a decent scout chopper killer as well.

I don't think I'd ever reread the Wingman novels, even if I still had them. I mean, they were never haute literature. I mean, at one point he arms the -XL with six M61s. Six. M. Sixty. Ones. On an F. Sixteen.

I think part of the attraction is continuing the unbroken streak of procuring to fight the last war :D

Hey, people are still doing that in the Fringe. Okay, they are actually trying to play catch up to get into the war that just started, but it's the same end-result: a bunch of stuff that isn't quite right, but it's going to get used anyway, and damn the costs.

There's a concerted effort to NOT do that, but what it's resulting in is an effort to procure to fight the third or fourth war ago... ;D

Seeing as I don't even know how to count American wars anymore, I think that puts us somewhere between attacking Spain or Japan over the Philippines*.




*I'm kidding. The answer, of course, is the sequel to The Great War, subtitled "New Friends and Old Grudges".
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

chanman

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #842 on: 21 September 2024, 17:30:21 »
There's a concerted effort to NOT do that, but what it's resulting in is an effort to procure to fight the third or fourth war ago... ;D

True, the "We need bigger, more macho bullet to fight at even longer ranges" was a debate that goes back to the dawn of smokeless powder and the Boer War :cheesy:

Which was... *drumroll* an expeditionary imperial counter-insurgency campaign. Something about history rhyming

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #843 on: 21 September 2024, 18:10:47 »
I don't think I'd ever reread the Wingman novels, even if I still had them. I mean, they were never haute literature. I mean, at one point he arms the -XL with six M61s. Six. M. Sixty. Ones. On an F. Sixteen.
RAC/2s only weigh half a ton each, I'm so making the Wingman Special F-16 when you get Aircreator going.  The -16C can carry 7.7 tons of ordnance onboard, so that's 2.5 tons for the guns (one centerline, two on each wing, and the onboard gun) and plenty of ammo - hell there's even enough weight left over for Sidewinders on the wingtips.

I've gone mad with power, haven't I.
True, the "We need bigger, more macho bullet to fight at even longer ranges" was a debate that goes back to the dawn of smokeless powder and the Boer War :cheesy:

Which was... *drumroll* an expeditionary imperial counter-insurgency campaign. Something about history rhyming
By which I am reminded of this song.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d6cygp4QrU  I can completely picture the troops from Vereeniging singing this around a bivouac on some world, remembering the history of Earth in some small way.

As far as procurement, that's a battle that's neverending - and completely at the whims of chance and winds of change; look at things like FARA and Comanche (or the G11) to see how suddenly a program can die despite how mature it is.  Plans change on a dime, which is about all anyone can get out of Congress these days...
« Last Edit: 21 September 2024, 18:22:03 by ANS Kamas P81 »

Failure16

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #844 on: 21 September 2024, 19:05:55 »
I think you just found one of the roots of the Black Devils' regimental song, Kamas.

Oh, you could fit all those guns on an F-16 (especially and -XL), but he had them all in the nose. An F-16's petite little nose.

True, the "We need bigger, more macho bullet to fight at even longer ranges" was a debate that goes back to the dawn of smokeless powder and the Boer War :cheesy:

Which was... *drumroll* an expeditionary imperial counter-insurgency campaign. Something about history rhyming

I have always said that the difference between a private guarding a checkpoint in Lebanon, Kosovo, Iraq, or the Congo is the same person as the legionary standing atop Hadrian's Wall, just with different technology. It is absolutely the fundamental basis of the Outer Fringe and the Settled Worlds.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #845 on: 21 September 2024, 20:20:50 »
Okay that is just insane.  What did he do with the radar, then?!

That mental image of the legionary on the wall...yeah, that's symbolic of the Fringe.  The soldier standing between the light and the darkness, a scene of time immemorial.  And the mercenary for pay, fighting where politics dies, that too is a symbol of the Fringe and the Settled Worlds.

Also just as an aside, once you get Aircreator going, I'm totally making a TL6 Aliens UD-4L Cheyenne Dropship.  That was a perfect design, it just screams malice like a pissed off armored dragonfly.



I'm thinking the APC comes with a pair of light HECs and twin GMGs in a front sponson, plus 14 troops to account for everyone.  Matter of fact, why the hell not.  Here's the source material to work with, and I'm going with the laser-armed version because they're lightweight.  I'm only a little high on the weight, though there was no way I was getting this pig to 150km/h on roads; I'll take that 8 MA and run with it.  Maybe it was a competing design for an APC on Hochstadt but lost due to its lack of armor; even the wiki page I linked admits it's pretty light and mostly good for small arms fire. 

Failure16

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #846 on: 22 September 2024, 02:07:40 »
EDIT: Stories are less fun when they lack the first page.

Oh, I dunno. I can see a Höchstadtler Central Customs/Border Guard (Heavy Response) unit driving around in one of those.

And who doesn't want a UD-4L?!



So, no one asked for this but people always want to know more about the Fringe, so have some light reading about a smaller world called Pravadan:

Borrowed and condensed from the Socio-Political Overview Section of Sailing Instructions of the Settled Worlds, 2514 Edition, Intergalax Free Press:

Pravadan is a sleepy world that is nearly average in every regard. The world is second in orbit around its primary, just over one AU from its G2 primary. At just under Earth-normal mass, the planet yields almost human-normal gravity. The surface of the planet is covered with roughly 60% oceans separating three primary continents, only one (Maghada) of which is inhabited. The comparatively small oceans can yield some serious storms, but they lack the breadth to develop the cyclones that can threaten coastal habitations. The inhabited continent also lacks significant volcanic activity (which manages to keep one—Khedi—of the continents from being safely habitable). The remaining continent, Chedi, does have some small coastal habitations, but they generally lack intercourse with the rest of the world other than functioning as vacation and trade destinations for each other. The world is noted for its human-normal climate and prominent mammalian species which were similar enough to human-consciousness as to receive names from history, like Biharan Rhinos, Yellow Leopards, Muntjacs, and Aurochs.

Pravadan was settled in the middle of the Second Wave (Landing Date 2300) by an open consortium of immigrants marshalled by a Mansfield colonization initiative. For nearly a century, the world boasted little more than a planetary gendarmery that itself was the world-wide network of emergency services bulked out with reservists. It managed to eke its way through the Great Interstellar War with little more than the scorch marks of troopships that landed and the stories of the troopers they had carried as they transited across the stars to get at their unseen foes.

Since Pravadan’s inception, it has functioned as an agricultural world. Once it passed its growing pains of the initial settlement and matured into a functional colony and world, it began to export bulk cargos on passing starships (mainly grains in the form of rice, wheat, and corn, but later certain mined minerals that had some amount of value to others in need). Most of these hulls were Mansfield-flagged, but not all were, and the Pravadanians felt secure in their idyllic world, providing the basic sustenance to whoever would keep the tariffs low.

The planet inherited its basic governing structure from Mansfield, with a parliamentary republic featuring no less than twelve recognized parties, resulting in a dizzying election and governing process. The settled area of Pravadan is centered on the capital of Bihar and is broken into six similarly sized union-territories which have local representation and centrtalized municipal services, but no actual local governments. The outlying lands away from the main settlement of the Basmati River Valley and on Maghada form delegations that travel to Bihar for the governing season during local Fall (roughly June to November Standard Calendar). Other than the normal friction of any human society, Pravadan has never had an internal dispute or episode of serious discontent.

As the world grew, so did its culture and industrial base. The world itself is apparently a corruption of a Hindi word, ‘pravdhan’ meaning provisions, or sustenance. Its capital, Bihar, lies at the center of the Basmati River Valley which drain three continental river systems (together referred to as the Trishula). Like many colonies and worlds, Pravadan developed into a system of urban primacy, where Bihar is the sole major city on the planet. Indeed, the colony itself has generally not departed far from the massive Basmati River Valley. This has led to a highly concentrated center of human settlement that is focused on the massive hive of Bihar lessening in almost oblong, concentric rings outwards toward the Devalik Range to the southwest and the Uttaran Forest to the northeast.

As farming grew in scale and intensity, Pravadan quickly took over local production of the infrastructure it needed. This meant that its industrial, chemical, and automotive sectors (fueled by ethanol-burning engines) grew at an accelerated pace. By the coming of the Second Troubles, Pravadan was just coming into the teenage-years of its third generation. The near-sudden halt of offworld trade nearly crushed the planetary economy: food could still be grown, fertilizer and fuel still produced, and farm equipment made, but none of it had any place to go, so it rotted in warehouses, went rancid in holding tanks, or rusted in plant yards.

Once again, Mansfield came to the rescue. Pravadan’s godparent-world managed to work with the planetary government to introduce austerity measures and procure what goods they could before the starlanes nearly shut down entirely as the full implications of the disastrous war that just ended began to come clear. As the Second Troubles plodded forwards, Pravadanians once again forced themselves to become accustomed to the sober realities that their grandparents had faced when they arrived on-world. They did not, perhaps, have the crushing danger of starting a new world from the settling dust of a colony ship, but they now knew no new starships would be coming to land at their starport, either.

The Pravadanians survived the Troubles in good shape. The world was never in any danger, and the gentle temperate/subtropical climate did not impart any specific stress on a society that was in good order by any measure past fiscal. When the starliners did begin to return—Pravadanians dating the start of the Resumption in 2452—on Mansfield hulls, it did not take long at all for the two worlds to reestablish official ties. By 2455, the two worlds (plus the brand-new Mansfielder colony of Moravia) had entered into an official pact for mutual support which would, in 2468, become the Dominion of Free Stars with the inclusion of Jakarta and then Karach (2472).

Pravadan’s return to the interstellar stage happened gradually, as it did the first time. The society itself is widely considered to be openly genial but guarded, willing to take a risk but preferring to act with directed, even muted, purpose. Still, by 2482, Pravadanian goods were once again gracing the shelves from Höchstadt to Nouvelle Normandy to New Berkeley and even well into the Fringe at Longways and Montelimar. Indeed, its Basmati rice is considered a delicacy of the highest order, one of the rare foodstuffs that is worth shipping over interstellar distances other than hold-filler from one drop to the next.

The planetary population presently stands at approximately 40 million, much of which was from immigrants arriving from various worlds to work in the expanding manufacturing plants or eke out a living on a plot of land in the vast Basmati’s periphery. Other than the vast municipal services attending to Bihar (which holds about 60% in its greater unincorporated area), the colony itself did not have a standing military force until 2475. For a decade more, this consisted of armored cars and truck-mounted infantry, all riding locally produced, quasi-military vehicles. By 2485, the military, facing gentle pressure from Mansfield, began to take their military more seriously. They began to practice in the shadow of the small bare-bones planetary defensive array that Mansfield was beginning to erect at strategic points across the globe and in the high orbitals.

By increasing the pay and benefits of the soldiery and enticing an upper percentage with educational vouchers and grants, the Pravadanians were able to produce a professional military in a remarkably short time. It did help that they had advisors from the Mansfield Royal Land Forces at every level, but the Pravadnians proved to be quick studies for something they had little previous experience with. They had better soldiers now, but nothing to give them.

During this time, Pravadan agricultural companies were shipping more food off world than they could seem to harvest comfortably. It was not long before those companies began to actively recruit off-worlders, which gave outsiders their first real glimpse of a world that many had never given a second thought—but were quick to remember for all its virtues.

In 2486, the military began to reequip with gear that had been provided at excellent terms from Mansfield. The Pravadanians were clear that this was only a stop-gap measure, to be used until they could stand their own productions line up. And so they did, beginning the long process of designing an armored vehicle from a blank sheet.

That vehicle arrived just in time, for the opening of the new century. In that year, 2500, Pravadan was invaded by forces from the neighboring world of Anadolu. The invading expeditionary force entered orbit in coopted civilian freighter hulls and landed directly at the Biharan star ports.

The fighting was initially muted. The Anadolans, themselves in their first interstellar war, found they had possession of a massive city after they had seized the key points during the initial probes. The Pravadanian Defence Force had little practiced war in their own capital city; the very notion if it would distress the average officer and private-soldier alike.

But when the Anadolan occupiers began to move out of the city and into the outlying areas, they began to encounter problems. Their laser tanks and armored infantry were individually effective, but swiftly began to become constrained by an enemy who knew the local terrain and its conditions, using vehicles that were suited to the area and able to destroy them once they were sighted. The invading forces failed to take over the planetary defense nodes before a relief force from Mansfield made it on-world.

The relief force were not Mansfield Royal forces, but star-mercenaries hired on that were able to deploy faster than a lead-footed planet-tied army brigade. The newly arrived mercenaries—the Free Lancers armored battalion—made quick work of the Anadolans they could catch before the rest made it back to Bihar. Unfortunately, the Pravadanians could barely congratulate themselves before another mercenary force blew their way into orbit and made landfall straight from the deceleration burn.

That outfit was the Höchstadtler Foreign Service Regiment, under an ostensible contract to the government of Anadolu. The problem the Anadolans were facing was that they were bound by a Treaty of Friendship with Höchstadt, that had its own official delegations on Mansfield. While Höchstadt could not throw such a treaty away, they had little desire to torpedo their standing with a fellow Core World and a state of affairs that benefited them insofar as the DFS occupied a shoulder of space pinning Novosibirsk (and it’s “People’s Party”, the HPK) with whom was building a developing mutual resentment between the two—then three—powers. While Mansfield was distracted by Pravadan, Jakarta was invaded by HPK forces following a “popular revolution” led by the Jakartan Free Determination Front. Mansfield was able to lend only token (and ultimately ineffective) support.

The FSR was under orders to bring the fighting to a swift conclusion, which they did in under a month. The Free Lancers and local allies were shattered in a climactic engagement on the outskirts of Bihar, breaking their line of circumvallation, leaving Pravadan to accept Anadolan suzerainty.

Luckily, that state of affairs did not last long. As soon as the star-mercenaries boosted for the black, Mansfield was preparing its own riposte. The hammerfall did not take long to land, nor its shockwaves be felt. By late 2501, the Mansfield-led DFS coalition relief forces had forced the Anadolans offworld, but it would take another three years for the world to rebuild itself back to a semblance of pre-invasion normalcy.

During this time, however, the Pravadanians began to seriously reconsider their flippancy about martial prowess and the need for a strong defense. Debates raged weekly, daily, and eventually hourly at dinner tables and withing parliamentary chambers about the viability of a large standing force—and what to do with it, if one became a part of Pravadanian society. In the end, the choice was given to them by the rest of the DFS.

The Dominion of Free Stars was glad to have gentle Pravadan—a founding mother to Mansfield’s father figure—back in the fold. But it could not happen again. So, Pravadan would contribute to its own defense, with none of the early desires to restrict its usage solely to planetary defense (lest they be unable to assist fellow DFS members as they themselves had so recently benefited).

As part of the rebuilding effort, Pravadanian military-industrial conglomerates began to coalesce and produce the necessary equipment for a full-time, possibly expeditionary, army. The new force gots its chance, sooner than anyone believed. Pravadan was tapped by Mansfield to assist it in its takeover of the Fringe world of Juneau. What followed was eighteen months of fighting on glaciers and tundra under midnight suns and sunless noons, in snowstorms and clouds of moonflies. Through it all, the Pravadanian First National Brigade provided exemplary service, even though it was a Mansfield adjunct regiment (Marlborough’s Dragoons) that finally secured the world in 2506.

By 2507, Pravadanian food exports had returned to almost normal pre-invasion levels. Its automotive industry was still holding on against an increasingly saturated market. And it was providing covert advisors paid for by Mansfield special-services funds to Jakartan loyalists.

The road for these shadow warriors would be long indeed. It would not be until 2512 that the Jakartan fifth columnists felt able to challenge the HPK security forces, transhumanist New Berkeleyans, over the imposition of heavy taxes on their coastal fishing fleets and processing plants. These fiercely independent areas had largely managed to play off everyone else against each other and form a de-facto independent state within the cloak of HPK control. It took a Cherkasian expeditionary security-force (the so-called Black Suits or “Skull Crushers”) to stamp out the budding insurrection over the next three years. As of this writing, the Cherkasians have departed Jakarta, and tensions are even now beginning to flare back up.

At present, Pravadan is much the same as it has always been: growing food and selling it wherever they can land a market. Socially and politically, its people are trying to find their way in the new order. The shadow war against the HPK (and, to a much lesser extent with Anadolu) has gone largely unnoticed by the populace at large. Moreover, because Mansfield has been underwriting the adventures, it has been little-remarked in political discourse. It has provided the Pravadanians with a growing core of martial professionals, and this steel-core has started to interact with increasing frequency with its similar numbers on Mansfield, solidifying the Dominion of Free Stars as more than an alliance of convenience into something more solid and purposeful.

Only time will tell what part Pravadan will play as events continue to unfold across the Settled Worlds, but there is little doubt it will arise to whatever occasion presents itself.



As an added bonus (well, it may all be naff to you, but, hey, I tried...), I am attaching some old-school Fringe goodies. The second attachment is an old gaming magazine with a scenario (pp. 9-10) and short story (pp. 14-20) involving Pravadan, the FSR, and the Free Lancers. It was written a long time ago, and while I might do things differently from a technical or craftmanship perspective, I believe in the truth behind it. (I had to break it down individually IOT post it.  Apoloigies in advance)

My personal thanks to Jason Weiser for taking a chance on an untried author. While that magazine didn't take off for long, he went on to bigger and better things. That makes me glad.



People go to war for a lot of reasons, and when they get there, they do a lot of things they might not like. But at the end of the day, they really go there because they are told to, and they do what they have to because they follow orders, and that's the best way to see tomorrow: do what you have to do.

Sometimes the reasons why they are there don't make any sense to the men and women on the ground, but that doesn't matter to them. Not really. And that doesn't matter to the men and women who sent them there in the first place.
« Last Edit: 22 September 2024, 14:56:31 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

Failure16

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #847 on: 22 September 2024, 02:10:23 »
Penultimate grouping. Again, it's not wonderful literature, but it is the Fringe.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

Failure16

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #848 on: 22 September 2024, 02:13:27 »
Last of these posts.

Okay that is just insane.  What did he do with the radar, then?!

Speaking of Wingman; I don't know what he did. I just remember he shot a Flogger pilot in the face with his "six-pack". Sigh.
« Last Edit: 22 September 2024, 11:48:11 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

chanman

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #849 on: 22 September 2024, 03:05:02 »
Yeah, Mexico's cav force is so Fringe it hurts.  I mean, freaking halftracks and Greyhounds alongside ERC-90s, and a 21st century assault rifle alongside G3s.

Alright, a bunch of CARs in the Mriyan inventory.  I'll need to work out how many compared to standard BCTs, but I feel like the Mriyans are going to be CAR heavy like the Russians with their 260+ BTGs when they invaded Ukraine in 2022.  A few Mechanized Infantry BCTs to fill out the core of the army, then layering on a couple dozen CARs for freewheeling forward operations.  It also gives me room to have one or two dedicated CARs as training units like the Blackhorse that, for the most part, can give a standup fight to a visiting unit.

Thanks for the kudos, F16; I'm just trying to help break/make Tankreator into what it can really do, and even if things aren't spot-on accurate I can live with that - there's tradeoffs in all things, and it's bloody realistic enough as it is.  It's more a situation of adding on edge cases and equipment that have limited utility at this point; you built it into one hell of a game maker.  But I will take that title and roll with it.

Since you liked the Type 88 and the G mod, have its arguably better armed rival.  As cool as Airwolf is, though, there's something about that big faceted cockpit of Blue Thunder that I love...plus that M61 Vulcan gun chewing through targets.  Wish I could have put more ammo in, but she's pretty light on space as it is, so I'll live with 64 short bursts from the gun.

A lot of Latin American formations are 'So Fringe it hurts'. It's something about that combination of internal security focus making the external threat-facing part of the force as a secondary concern that really gives them a bit of that Gendarmerie-Mad Max cross feel. Like that 1970s development of the M3 Stuart https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsllbg7YK8Q

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #850 on: 22 September 2024, 13:39:56 »
Damn but you guys can write fluff like nobody's business.  And you got the Fringe published, even if it was a small magazine, that's still something to be proud of!

Neat video on the X1 series.  Shows you what a small country can do (almost entirely) on their own.

chanman

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #851 on: 22 September 2024, 15:42:27 »
Okay that is just insane.  What did he do with the radar, then?!

I assume, used his latent psychic powers, which must have been Link 16-compatible  :cheesy:

I do wonder if this is a distinctly American genre. I seem to recall British thriller of the sort tend to be a lot more brutal and cynical, probably for good reason, but I don't see any reason pulp like that wouldn't be popular elsewhere as well. There's probably a limit to how much 'moral-political preparation' the average border guard or conscript has an appetite for before a political commissar's own quality of life starts to take a hit.

Red team wargames...

Failure16

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #852 on: 22 September 2024, 18:33:00 »
I do wonder what the modelling mechanism is for those games. But what I really want are those maps.

And yes, growing up in Europe I got to read many of those British thrillers and they were indeed more brutal and cynical. And, from my dim recollection, ultimately more realistic. I wish I could remember the titles or authors, but some of the scenes remain with me to this day.

And then there are the classics that I do remember, and still have, some of them, like Dark of the Sun (which paired very nicely with The Wild Geese, of course) and a couple of Carre's works. David Drake's work in the political(ish) thriller genre was much more leaning towards the British model vice the American one, and that not only makes me glad, but why they can still be read today without squirming through them.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

DOC_Agren

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #853 on: 22 September 2024, 18:54:57 »
Okay, as a child at the time how did I never see the Blue Thunder Toy, because I would have asked for 1 as a Cobra Copter vrs GI JOE.

Trust me my idea for Ullaley, is looking like mid 80's stye tech...
There might be some new Tech in the "Guard Force" which makes for great parade troops, but..  MAD MAX mix here we come.

"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

Daryk

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #854 on: 22 September 2024, 19:14:58 »
For a good non-fiction read, I recommend Mark of the Lion.  It's a biography of Captain Charles Upham, the only combat arms soldier to win TWO Victoria Crosses.  When he was liberated from Colditz, he tried to draw a rifle and some grenades to get back into action.  The Americans told him "no".

Failure16

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #855 on: 22 September 2024, 21:16:02 »


Here he is, smoking a cigarette between barbed wire fences following an unsuccessful escape attempt and under threat of being shot by a guard. He is my hero. Man had lion-sized balls, for starters.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #856 on: 22 September 2024, 22:10:03 »
I'm happy to make record sheets for whatever kinds of vehicles you want, Doc.  Mid-80s is TL3, so that's a decent level, and probably some TL4 stuff for your parade unit.  Let me know if you're thinking of copying real-world vehicles, or if you've got specs in mind for custom-made stuff.  It gives me something to do during the day.

Man, just reading the Wikipedia's article on Upham is impressive, I can only imagine what the detailed account must be like.  Balls of a lion indeed.

chanman

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #857 on: 22 September 2024, 23:55:10 »
I do wonder what the modelling mechanism is for those games. But what I really want are those maps.

And yes, growing up in Europe I got to read many of those British thrillers and they were indeed more brutal and cynical. And, from my dim recollection, ultimately more realistic. I wish I could remember the titles or authors, but some of the scenes remain with me to this day.

And then there are the classics that I do remember, and still have, some of them, like Dark of the Sun (which paired very nicely with The Wild Geese, of course) and a couple of Carre's works. David Drake's work in the political(ish) thriller genre was much more leaning towards the British model vice the American one, and that not only makes me glad, but why they can still be read today without squirming through them.

Frederick Forsyth, Day of the Jackal, Dogs of War, and others. About as cynical as you'd expect a correspondent covering 1960s France and the Biafran War would be. Andy McNab... well, Northern Ireland as a Green Jacket, SAS, and 14 Intelligence Company

chanman

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #858 on: 23 September 2024, 01:34:16 »
Found someone's list of Chinese wargames/publishers on Board Game Geek:

https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/256720/chinese-published-wargames

Lots of the usual subjects (WW2, Arab-Israeli Wars, seeming reprints of games from other developers), along with local historical settings, including a number of Chinese Civil War and warlord-era games.

How's this for unexpected subject matters though? The 2008 Russo-Georgian war
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/256495/the-bear-russo-georgian-war-in-2008

And from this side of the pond in non-consumer space, wargaming uniform supply:
https://www.cna.org/reports/2024/07/camoland-clothing-and-textile-industrial-base-wargame
« Last Edit: 23 September 2024, 01:35:55 by chanman »

Daryk

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #859 on: 23 September 2024, 03:26:15 »
Wow, I'm surprised they have Georgia already!

And yes about Upham! :)

Failure16

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #860 on: 23 September 2024, 18:30:14 »
Pfft. Decision Games did it too. Tanks of August.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

Daryk

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #861 on: 23 September 2024, 18:34:17 »
Well, S&T is who I would have expected to have it first given their format. :)

chanman

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #862 on: 23 September 2024, 18:47:55 »
Pfft. Decision Games did it too. Tanks of August.

I wonder if you could mash the two games into one given the difference in scale. Tanks of August is 24h turns and 10km hexes, while The Bear looks like 6h day/12h night turns with 1.5km hexes

Daryk

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #863 on: 23 September 2024, 19:33:03 »
That sounds hard but doable.

Failure16

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #864 on: 23 September 2024, 23:08:17 »
I wonder if you could mash the two games into one given the difference in scale. Tanks of August is 24h turns and 10km hexes, while The Bear looks like 6h day/12h night turns with 1.5km hexes

The scale is relatively easy to fix: see BattleTech's BattleForce (1&2) and Alpha Strike. What a unit can do in 24 hours it should be able to do in 12/18 so long as the net artifact is comparable. The biggest thing is reconciling the combat-model and seeing how that works out to find the basis of compatibility.


Say, have some fluffy goodness to feed of the World Brief from yesterday.

Kahler Interstellar Arms Expo 2515 Technical Readout Excerpt: Nakula Tank Destroyer
==Overview:==

The Nakula is a turretless armored fighting vehicle produced by the Mechanical Combat System Directorate (MCSD) in Avennai, Bihar on Pravadan. It was made expressly for the Pravadanian National Defence Forces (PNDF) and was named after one of the Pāṇḍuputra, five brothers from an ancient epic poem (reputedly the longest such text ever recorded, though no known copies exist). It is the first AFV ever developed and then produced by MCSD. Design work began seriously in 2488 from a tender dating to 2486. The first prototype began trials in 2498 and the tank entered full production a year later, followed by fleet-wide employment in 2500.

Prior to 2475, Pravadan did not even have a standing military, but they did have a very well-developed civil- and industrial-automotive industry. Upon the alliance with nearby Mansfield (which became the Dominion of Free Stars or DFS) in 2468, they resisted the gentle pressure to develop one until having to acquiesce in 2485. In that year, they accepted transference of military gear from Mansfield in the form of light armored cars and a handful of light tanks—primarily M5 Hermans and M7 Dalmations from far-off New Detroit. They provided the trucks and jeeps (produced by Kohsa Motor Factory, again in Avennai, Bihar) to transport the infantry and two the artillery and anti-tank guns that would form the bulk of their commitment to a functioning ground army. Within five years, KMF was license-producing versions of the vehicles (the New Detroit firms being all too happy to continue making money of designs that were almost seven decades old) they had been given and by 2492, they were selling off their excess stock alongside exported grains and passenger cars and industrial equipment.

While Mansfield was the driving force behind the alliance, the Pravadanians were unwilling to “become a poor wife” as the government publicly declared at the time. They also knew that the M5s and -7s were too old to be of serious use on battlefields that had not even been envisioned when they were first made, dozens of years and hundreds of light years away. While they willingly accepted the military aid from Mansfield (Pravadanians are nothing if not carefully thrifty, it being a cultural and national pastime), they were also very clear they would be producing their own gear moving forward.

And they did. The gestational process that resulted in the Nakula was measured, but effective. The vehicle—termed a tank in Pravadanian service but widely regarded to be a tank destroyer even on Mansfield—came equipped with several innovative features. Still, it was a first-effort, albeit by a company that had managed to carve out a niche in a crowded interstellar market. The first version, retroactively labeled the MK1, served through a major conflict within two years of entering service, where it did well enough but was unable to stem the tide of an invasion by Anadolu. Successive versions were largely the result of lessons learned during that bloody conflict and the new MK2 continues to serve proudly as the primary instrument of decision in the PNDF.

==Capabilities:==

The Nakula is a very low-slung, turret-less tank. [While nearly every otyher military, defense company, and professional publiocation and oversight body considers turretless, heavily armed vehicles to be classified as ‘tank destroyers’ or ‘assault guns’ based on their doctrinal usage, the Nakula is referred to as a ‘tank’ in the classical sense based upon the Pravadanians’ doctrinal usage of the vehicle.] This design aesthetic was chosen by MCSD for several reasons: turret penetrations have historically been the primary method of tank destruction, they are very heavy, MCSD lacked experience building any modern heavyweight armored vehicle, let alone one with a turret, and designing one would increase the complexity and time by an unacceptable amount. What the Pravadanian military received was a medium-weight vehicle that weighed forty-eight tonnes many unique features in the midst of its seeming anachronisms.

Internally, the Nakula is situated somewhat differently than conventional s and fighting armored vehicle. Instead of bisected driver and fighting compartments, the crew shares what is ultimately a relatively spacious oval enclosure. Early tests proved that the tank could be effectively operated with two crew alone, but operationally this was found to be unviable: two personnel could fight the tank, but not pull security, conduct extended operations, provide maintenance, repairs, or resupply with any degree of effectiveness. The Nakula was thus afforded an extra crewman who would function as a backup driver, radio or “systems” operator while the driver operated as the gunner and the commander rand the operations of the tank and searched out targets for engagement.

Partially because of the crew compartment’s design, and in an effort to reduce the extension of the main-gun barrel past the leading edge, the Nakula’s tracks extend relatively further forward of the hull itself. While not providing any specific benefit regarding mines, Nakulas routinely suffer fewer injuries to personnel from mine-strikes than comparable vehicles. Still, the Nakula, like many turretless designs, fare relatively poorly when it comes to overcoming obstacles such as severe inclines or declines. It does feature an adjustable suspension despite its low profile, allowing its rigid main-gun better elevation and depression than even turreted tanks such as the Novosibirsk T-75/6 and -91 series and the Merriweather M11 Wolf Light Tank.

The Nakula is fully amphibious, able to take to the water with a broadly-limited swimming ability after only three-to-five minutes preparation from a cold-start. Prior preparations can be made to drop that time down to a minute or less under acceptable conditions. Before entering the water, a swim-vane is erected, either by hand or small motors attached at key point and operated by the commander while the driver attaches a snorkel-shroud over the air intake and exhaust. In the water, the tank is driven by its tracks (Saba Corporation TS-12 links with rubber-shoes) and two waterjets at the rear of the hull.

The tank has fair mobility, better that much of its competitors, but not as good as hoped in the seasonal rice paddies outside Bihar on Pravadan. It is powered by, again, a license-built version of the Maybach HD-799 multifuel diesel. In this case, the engine and associated power pack (which can be removed with a six-tonne crane or pulley) is optimized for ethanol, the primary automotive fuel on Pravadan.

The compact profile of the Nakula means that the armor it did carry was very well-distributed. It could withstand 120mm direct strikes to its frontal arc and medium-caliber hits to its sides and even rear. The original model did not carry any specific point-defensive systems, but this was eventually rectified in the MK2 rebuild. The original fire-control system, while serviceable, was within appreciable standards.

While it could nominally fire on the move, its rigidly-mounted M1301 130mm main gun—itself a product of MCSD with Mansfield Armored Consortium technical- and production-assistance—was unable to do so other than during controlled tests, notwithstanding the fact that the driver was also the gunner. The rotary magazine fed an enclosed autoloader (that could be directly circumvented by the systems-operator at need) with forty rounds for its large-bore cannon. The commander was afforded an ancient license-built but locally produced Springfield Armories “Five-Oh” 12.7mm heavy machine gun on a power-assisted cupola ring-mount with nearly 2000 rounds aboard.

==Variants:==

Since its inception, the Nakula has seen various upgrades. Some, such as the Nakula MK1A through -D, were various service-life upgrades to electronics, interior fittings, changes to track-links, and communications systems.

The Nakula did better than expected in the tight urban jungle of Bihar, itself an environment never even considered by its designers given the primacy (almost deification) of that city in the Pravadanian mindset. But its lack of a turret was as noticeable a hindrance as it was in the vast growing fields outside the city, especially when faced with tanks armed with horizon-spanning heavy lasers or incredibly speedy ground-effect armor crewed by some of the best troopers money can buy.

The Nakula MK2 was the first major upgrade, borne from experiences in the invasion of Pravadan and the subsequent fight for liberation. In effect, all MK2s are new factory-builds—and completely new vehicles. While they look very similar to their forebears at a distance, the basic hull has been widened and lengthened. It has been strengthened to accept more robust running gear, a stronger engine and powerpack, and upgraded main-armament, optics, and electronics. All of this came at a cost, and the expanded capabilities of the Nakula MK2 meant the new vehicle weighed in at almost 62 tonnes.

The process of making the MK2 involved addressing the original vehicle’s faults. Its mobility, especially in the Pravadan’s wet- and rice-growing season, was not as good as anticipated. It’s offensive firepower was effective, especially against the ungainly Anadolan Akreps and Taburs that it faced during its baptism of fire, and its low-slung, well-armored carapace kept it safe, especially when on the defense. The MK1, however, did not fare well at all against the speedy, well-crewed ground-effect armor of the Foreign Service Regiment. The heavy main guns of the opposing assault guns could penetrate them at will, and their centerline mountings prevented them from reacting to the thrusts by swift hover-armor and expert infantry all backed by the latest intelligence assets and fire support.

The MK2 has become a living example of “grandfather’s axe”, being a completely new vehicle despite its name. The hull has been widened and considerably strengthened to accept the  extra fifteen tonnes of mass the redesign entailed.
It has slightly better armor protection over its frontal arc and sides with the addition of Telgun composite armor installed in lieu of the original hardened plate. A major shift is the addition of a ‘Short Stop’ point defense system made by the Archer Corporation, which can not only actively protect against various battlefield threats, but also provide advanced warning for the crew they are about to be engaged.

The fire control system has been completely revamped, with a brand new independent panoramic commander’s sight added to increase situational awareness not present in the original design and facilitate faster target acquisition and engagement. Most importantly, the original MCSD M1301 chemical 130mm cannon has been replaced with a brand new MBC-251B binary-propellant cannon firing 25mm penetrators at fantastic speeds. This definitely places the MK2 in the “tank destroyer” category vice the MK1’s likely “assault gun” classification, but it makes the new Nakula a fearsome opponent indeed for most opposing tanks in its weight class. The propellant tanks and conveyance tubing take up the space formerly used to store the 130mm conventional ammunition. Due to operational experiences against Anadolan armored infantry, FSR drones and hover armor, and Juneauan heavy helicopters, the roof-mounted machine gun was replaced with an 20mm autocannon and a slightly-improved FCS tied into the main system to handle local-air-defense.

The original license-built Maybach HD-799 (a vestigial holdover from Pravadan’s earlier days when it originally bought-in then started producing engines for its industrial vehicles from that Hochstadt supplier) has been replaced with a HDSE-816 multifuel turbine; the engine in Pravadanian use almost invariably burns ethanol-derivatives. This has also increased the tank’s speed by 150% to 50kph off-road, which is a substantial improvement over the MK1, but in its present employment.

The Saba TS-12 tracks have been replaced with a newer, wider version (the TSE-14) that can better handle the paddies encountered not only on its homeworld, but the snowfields and marshlands seen on Juneau—yet one additional reason the chassis was enlarged, in an effort to reduce the design’s ground pressure and improve its mobility.

Another variant—as yet not accepted for service and possibly only a test-bed—uses a high-energy 7cm laser taken from the vast stocks of captured weapons taken from destroyed Anadolan Taburs. Not much information has been released on the vehicle’s particulars and how it varies from the production MK2, but it can be assumed that much remains the same. There are unconfirmed rumors that the engine has been upgraded in order to deal with the power requirements of the pulsed-laser and that sightings have been made with various types of applique armor. It is possible that this variant may even be offered for general sale once all national-orders have been completed.

==Deployment==

The Nakula is the primary combat vehicle of the PNDF where some four hundred MK2s serve in three armored brigades (and approximately a hundred more older MK1s continue to on in regional militia service). There, they are organized conventionally in the Mansfielder pattern in three, four-tank troops (plus two in a Headquarters Troop) per armored squadron, with three squadrons per [battalion-sized] regiment and three regiments per brigade.

The PNDF armored brigades form the armored fist of national defense doctrine, but that doctrine is anything but passive. The Mansfield high command initially advanced concerns when they learned their Pravadanian counterparts were developing an assault gun, quibbles that did not lessen materially when they learned it was to be a tank destroyer. But Pravadanian operational art stresses that even defensive positions are to be used to launch tactical offensive actions—a conceit shown to them at great cost during their interaction with the Foreign Service Regiment in the late summer/early fall of 2500.

Retired and refurbished Nakula MK1s has been exported, in recent years, in small numbers to several worlds. Baumgarten, looking to upgrade from their smaller, homegrown assault guns, have taken receipt of enough to equip a battalion alongside the smattering of ground-effect armor they have received from Hochstadt and Khanasir.

Several ex-PNDF MK1s saw service on Karach in 2511 where they fought on both sides of that world’s civil war. Many Marlborough’s Dragoons troopers remarked that it felt “a little bit off” when they trod the foot trip of their main guns to slam a round into a vehicle that they had probably fought alongside on Juneau—and that might well have survived the invasion of their homeworld against a foreign invader. Over the next two years, those same troopers would see further examples of old MK1s in their gunsights on Kalinan (2513) and Pashtun (2514). By the end of those three campaigns, barracks jokes were centering on the “Nakkie Hunting Expedition” and the patches that were being sewn—unofficially—onto uniform sleeves or stenciled onto turret sides.
]
« Last Edit: 23 September 2024, 23:54:46 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra                                                      --C. Love
--A. Duritz

DOC_Agren

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #865 on: 24 September 2024, 00:39:08 »
I'm happy to make record sheets for whatever kinds of vehicles you want, Doc.  Mid-80s is TL3, so that's a decent level, and probably some TL4 stuff for your parade unit.  Let me know if you're thinking of copying real-world vehicles, or if you've got specs in mind for custom-made stuff.  It gives me something to do during the day.
I will let you know..

A Here a bunch is based on some realworld designs.. 
Like the PT-76 tank family, BTR-50 armored personnel carrier, the ZSU-23-4 self-propelled antiaircraft gun, the ASU-85 airborne self-propelled gun and the 2K12 Kub anti-aircraft missile launch vehicle, Combat engineering model, Mine clearing model,
T-55 tank family as well

Soviet Jeep
Fast Attack Vehicle
GI Joe Vamp
3/4 truck
2.5 ton truck
5 ton truck (Including Gun Trucks)
10 ton truck (cargo and dump)
Motorcycle

Sd.Kfz. 2
BTR-152 (coverted to 1/2 track)
Polar Battle Bear  (GI JOE)
Snow Cat (GI JOE)
Ice Sabre *GI JOE)
Cobra WOLF (Winter Operational Light Fighting) Vehicle.  (GI JOE)

GEV Spaceball Jeep (advanced prototype)
GEV Tank (advanced prototype). Might not be effective but looks "good"

Huey family of VTOL, including Cobra Gunship
Mil Mi-17 family of VTOL

A-1J Skyraider with as much 1980 era tech as possible
Saab 35 Draken (go as a advanced prototype interceptor)
C-64 Norseman
C47 and variants
C130 and variants




"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #866 on: 24 September 2024, 04:48:47 »
Well, some of those have been done already so I can mark them off the list, but here's the ASU-85 and the UAZ-469 to start with.  The UAZ is unarmed, it's just a light truck with a driver and four dismounts.

Left to do: 2K12 Kub, T-55, T-55 engineer vehicle, T-55 recovery vehicle, GI Joe Vamp, SdKfz 2, the GI Joe vehicles, and a GEV tank.  No aircraft can be made right now outside of helicopters, though I'll pencil in the Mi-17.

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #867 on: 24 September 2024, 05:43:19 »
And the 2K12 SAM launcher.  The missiles in the real world weigh 600kg each; I went with Heavy SAMs at 333kg in Tankreator instead of Very Heavy because the latter was 1 ton each.  That would have put it overweight, as it is it's the best match I could come up with.

The Vamp was easy enough, it's just a light truck with a bit of armor on it, a machine gun, and four ATGMs.  They're not that big on the toy, so I went with mediums; it came in nicely a little over five tons. 

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #868 on: 24 September 2024, 13:57:23 »
And a T-55.  The armor on the front glacis is pretty light, only 100mm compared to the 205mm turret front.  I made up the machine gun ammo supply, just to use up extra weight.  It's not an uncommon situation for a tank to carry thousands of rounds of MG ammo after all.

chanman

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Re: What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars
« Reply #869 on: 24 September 2024, 14:34:44 »
And a T-55.  The armor on the front glacis is pretty light, only 100mm compared to the 205mm turret front.  I made up the machine gun ammo supply, just to use up extra weight.  It's not an uncommon situation for a tank to carry thousands of rounds of MG ammo after all.

Rifle-calibre ammo is also usually helpful for accompanying infantry if they carry GPMGs. That said, a commander's MG is also pretty common, if you have the weight to slap on a Dushka or Ma Deuce, or even a KPV if you can find the space and weight for it.

 

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