What's old is neu: Relighting the Fringe with old guns and new wars

[Failure16]

Good thoughts; I'll have to puzzle it out tomorrow, though.

I did learn that may you lose some trailer capacity when you go offroad; sources vary and it is likely not worth goign dow nthat road, though. I do know that towing a trailer off road will probably limit you to about 10kph (1 MA) and you functionally lose about 2 MA from your vehicle speed (IOW, you lose the Road Bonus). Other than semi/tractor-trailers most trailers seem to sort of max out at about 80-100kph on a highway.

Right now, you are close enough for the Trailer Hitch. That part is easy, already done--but I cannot fit it on the Record Sheet(!). Good thoughts, there, if I can get it on the RS. Even getting the trailers to work won't be hard. Just making sure it meshes with everything else is the only tricky part.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Yeah, having a trailer should automatically limit you dramatically offroad.  I'm fine with 1MA for anything less than a smooth dirt road, especially in reverse.  That means things like towed artillery is going to be slow, well behind your general forward line of troops, but that's typical.  Still, having trailers worked out would allow things like towed artillery as a superlightweight trailer with a front mounted cannon on it, and a truck rated to haul the trailer's weight.

As far as editing the worksheet, that's going to get pretty involved trying to add one more statline to the list - and updating all the calculations to include them, but it's how I'd try integrating a Trailer Hitch system.  There's probably an easier way to do it, anyone got any ideas?

[Failure16]

The Worksheet is easy; it's already done. I cannot find the space in the Record Sheet though. That will be a problem. Tomorrow, though. Then Trailers. And then maybe back to the FS stat-line!

[ANS Kamas P81]

Idly, some thoughts about trailers - I've been focused on a flatbed trailer, which is just a floor, ramp, and axles.  Regular trailers with an internal structure should be built as normal, with the internal structure that matches that of a tracked vehicle.  That gives us the opportunity to build gun trailers Battletech style, while Flatbed Trailers should be a separate dropdown option with 1/3 the total structure weight of a regular Trailer.

[chanman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lli_xbMeV4

On France's new armoured cars

[Daryk]

That was FASCINATING! :)

Seriously, I LOVE combined arms down to the Company level! :D

[chanman]

That was FASCINATING! :)

Seriously, I LOVE combined arms down to the Company level! :D

It's the Com Guard way!

[Daryk]

Another video I think those here will appreciate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HljpWBkQbgU

TL C FTW! ;D

[ANS Kamas P81]

As for that GEV with an APW/H that Doc wanted, here it finally is.  I'm still seeing the inflated weight for a GEV, but it seems to be based on TL - at TL5, the structure weight is the same for cells F8 and M7 on the worksheet.  At lower TLs, it has a multiplier of some kind that increases the weight, is that WAI or is OpenOffice not calculating properly again?

Either way, here's a TL4 hoverjeep with an APW/H that carries two crew (driver/gunner) and four dismounts.  I can get the weight down to 4 tons if I drop the infantry, but the point of the jeep is to carry extra troops around and not being its own self-contained vehicle.  And it looks like there's enough room in that photo to fit at least four more Spaceballs in it.  It doesn't have the speed of the grav tank version of it, but that's a tradeoff that had to happen.

Daryk, that was a great watch, and while there's very likely the case that only sanitized and positive impressions are being printed it's still a good rifle and a zippy cartridge.  Hopefully once they get production ramped up they'll produce more of the high power cartridge, and stick with a single round instead of a high and low power round.  That way lies madness...

[Daryk]

The main advantage I'm seeing is the convergence of 5.56 and 7.62 to a single bore size, even if there's still two kinds of ammo... ;)

Also, I'm seeing a bump up from the M249 at 5.56, but I don't see a comparison to the M240...  Hmmm...

[ANS Kamas P81]

The XM250 isn't replacing the M240, just the M249.  I could totally see it doing both roles, and taking over the GPMG role from the 240L - not just for infantry carried versions but for vehicle mounts as well.  6.8x51mm is a superior cartridge to 7.62x51mm, so in my opinion they should institute a general switch across the board.  That's my opinion though, and it's what Gensoukyou did when they upgraded from 5.56mm carbines back in 2521.

Also for F16, I made a armored recovery vehicle for Sapporo to handle the heavyweight beasts they call tanks.  It's built on the hull of an AW-15, and is probably a conversion that a lot of leftover AW-15s are getting put on them.  It's pretty straightforward, a hundred ton winch and a fifteen ton crane while keeping the cupola-mounted Gauss MG on top of a superstructure replacing the turret.  I gave it the bulldozer blade to eat up a lot of spare tonnage and make it useful for making fortified positions.  As it is, it's still 11 tons lighter than the AW-15; all that turret armor adds up to a lot of weight on the tank.

[DOC_Agren]

thank you for the spaceball hover jeep..  what a great show unit..

[ANS Kamas P81]

Speaking of great show units, have a helicopter!



EDIT

Whoops, forgot Blue Thunder was armored as well.  It didn't stop .50 fire from the villain's helicopter, but did stop a 7.62mm machine gun, so I gave it one point on the front and sides.  Edited and reuploaded a record sheet!

[DOC_Agren]

Blue Thunder now there a movie and a TV series I have not seen in a while

[Failure16]

Love that Blue Thunder. I had a big one as a kid--the GI Joe helos were way out of our price range--that soldiered on an on (sans rotor blades) for years. Good times, and thanks for the memories, Kamas.

That was FASCINATING! :)

Seriously, I LOVE combined arms down to the Company level! :D

It's a way to life, for sure.

If the Russians could ever follow their own doctrine, they notionally had ways of doing it down to the platoon-level (at least in their Combat Recon Platoons (see Attachment 1 below)). Incidentally, you can read all about it here, which is a pretty neat site.


Soooo...trailers. I'll be pushing out a revised Tankreator with buildable trailers, but they won't be pretty, and they won't have the breadth of accuracy the rest of the program has. There are a lot of trailers in the world, and they all weigh different proportions of their gross-weight. Tankreator works because there are so many variable there can be a minimal amount of cheating that gets you where you want or need to be, and it's unnoticeable on a gamebord.

Trailers, well, there is nothing to cheat. It's a frame, wheels, and a load-weight. That is it. I shall not be trying to parse out axles, tongue-design, or even if it has a ramp, etc. After two-plus days of wrapping myself around those scanty axles, I had to face up to the fact that trailers are--almost unarguably--a niche feature of the program, and there are more important things to do, like wrap up Fire Support, add in the last infantry-support weapons, look into aircraft and tighten up helos and their own load-carrying capabilities.

There are two types of trailers, now: Utility and Combat. The Utility trailers adhere closely to the percentages I could find after sifting through a dozen websites to get trailer-weights, load-capacity, and correlating them. The combat trailers I have not messed with yet other than to allow them to be made. As asked-for, they used Tracked structural requirements/fundamental data (but the program doesn't say that; I will assume all trailers are Wheeled, for convenience's sake; if one wanted a Tracked Trailer, just make it with improved Mobility and move onwards).

Oh, field artillery/towed guns: they probably won't work out perfectly (okay, at all, yet). So far, they seem to be 1-2 tonnes heavy, but the real problem is the system weights. It is hard to make an M777 (which has an all-up weight of 4.2 tonnes) when the gun in Tankreator is already 6. Sigh. And no, the answer is not to change the system weights, because they seem to work with everything else. I have toyed around with a modifier for towed guns where the systems weigh appreciably less...

The Record Sheet gained an extra row--the first time it has changed in size in years! It should not invalidate any previous RS's because nothing will show other than the Trailer Hitch under the Systems block. Speaking of which: if you build a tractor-unit, you put the pull-weight (using the Trailer Hitch line under Systems) you want as part of your Design's Overall Mass, and that mass will be accounted for throughout the process (including the plussed-up engine)...but subtracted from the "Free Mass". That way, we can have 11.9 tonne MT-LB that can pull a 6.5 tonne load, but not have to look like it is 18.4 tonnes on the Record Sheet.

To recap, Tankreator is still awesome, and the additions of trailer-specific data to the RS went better than expected. Now, if only I could be as ecstatic about the trailers themselves. Grumble, grumble.

EDIT: One can see the massaging one can do with an AFV: the MT-LB came in very slightly light. I had originally just upped the MMG ammo, but decided to give it some proper Russian flair.

[ANS Kamas P81]

I never had a Blue Thunder helicopter myself, but I wanted one over the years.  Just never got around to saving up for one off eBay, though I would need to find a place to display it.  I'm tempted to add a handful of ATGMs to the side pods and call it a Gensoukyouan attack helicopter...



Screw it, it's a Type 88 attack helicopter that replaces the kitbashed together Type 70, just like the Gazelle replaces the Alouette III.  I took the Network Node and pulled it off, replacing it with a Crew Protection System at the same weight.  I'll give it ATGM/Ms since ATGM/Hs are TL4, though it's the only thing in the fleet that uses them.  The Air Defense Force has standard antitank missiles that the Ground Defense Force doesn't use, though once TL5 vehicles show up they upgrade to ATGM/Hs.  Instead of buying an advanced helicopter from Sapporo, the Type 88 gets modernized as the Type 88-kai Mod. G (the most awesome letter according to anime) in 2520 and sports a high-tech turbine and some mid-grade protection systems; it's not as good as the ground vehicles but I had to save weight somewhere.

Thanks for all the work on trailers; I suppose I'm to blame for the impetus to dig through all that data and spend your time working on Tankreator.  A modifier for towed guns may be in order - they generally lack a lot of structural elements and the kind of automated elevation and azimuth controls that a regular mounted gun would have.  Compare the M777 with the M109's much heavier holistic system.  It's like how the BT Targeting Computer isn't just the weight of the computer itself but all the actuators for the weapons that it controls, or for that matter the difference between battle armor equipment weights and battlemech equipment weights. 

And besides, it doesn't have to be exact - the Fringe is its own settings; while lunatics like me might try our hardest to break Tankreator in making real-world equipment the real situation is that we're dealing with weapons and equipment that are only similar to our arsenals on Earth, with their own construction paradigms that may not be the same as ours.  It's a handwave to get rid of minor inaccuracies, and IMO gives more design freedom to come up with new vehicles entirely - like turning the entirely fictional Blue Thunder into a proper attack helicopter.

The Russians really like their small-unit organizations, don't they?  Even if it's a task-organized element, the CRP isn't just something that a commander came up with - it's part of doctrine.  Just like Battalion Tactical Groups, focusing on the small and mobile rather than using BCTs and Divisions as holistic combat elements. They train for that sort of thing, and it really feels like Dust & Fire's Playable Forces list is right up the Russian Federation's alley as far as small-unit combined arms.

On the topic of combined arms...

That idea of the Battalion Tactical Group being built around a tank battalion has me thinking; the 2-2 ratio seems to be a better choice in general for combined-arms operations.  Mriya could totally organize a large number of such battalions, with two 14-tank companies of Hepards, two companies of mechanized infantry in mixed Otselots, an SPG artillery battery, and a heavy mortar battery making up the core of a Combined Arms Regiment.  Add an ATGM platoon in the HHC and you've got a pretty well-rounded regiment.  Six company-sized elements may be large, but it's hardly new or rare.  It avoids the Battalion Tactical Group's problem of having few tanks, though Mriyan armor is pretty light on the protection - they don't have MBTs, just two models of light tank.  And those light tanks would be supported by Otselots, which come with their own medium guns.

So 28 Hepards or Levs, 18 Otselot 20s, 6 Otselot 90s, 4 ATGM Otselots, 6 120mm mortar Otselots, 4 Otselot Commands, 8 VBLs, 8 Pavuks, 6 155mm Tsar SPGs, 18 Heavy Rifle Teams, 6 Recoilless Rifle Teams, and 6 Flamethrower Teams all making up a single regiment.  Filling out the Mriyan military is going to require a huge amount of tanks, but with the military government pushing the army as a primary focus for the world's population it should be doable.  A few dozen (or more) of those ought to go a long way to protecting Mriya from the HPK's predations, especially since unlike Gensoukyou they're on their own...and unlike Gensoukyou it won't be enough to keep the Novosibirsks away forever.

Combined Arms Regiment
  Headquarters & Headquarters Company
    Headquarters
    Anti-Tank Platoon (Otselot ZT500 x4)
    Anti-Aircraft Platoon (Otselot 40 x4)
    Scout Platoon (Pavuk x8)
    Maintenance Platoon
    Medical Platoon
    Military Intelligence Platoon
    Signal Platoon
    Supply Platoon
  Tank Company
    Headquarters Section (Hepard x2, Otselot ARV)
    Tank Platoon (Hepard x4)
    Tank Platoon (Hepard x4)
    Tank Platoon (Hepard x4)
    Security Platoon (VBL (HMG) x4)
  Tank Company
    Headquarters Section (Hepard x2, Otselot ARV)
    Tank Platoon (Hepard x4)
    Tank Platoon (Hepard x4)
    Tank Platoon (Hepard x4)
    Security Platoon (VBL (HMG) x4)
  Mechanized Infantry Company
    Headquarters Section (Otselot Command x2, Otselot ARV)
    Mechanized Infantry Platoon (Otselot 20 x3, Otselot 90, HRT x3, HWT/RR, HWT/FLMR)
    Mechanized Infantry Platoon (Otselot 20 x3, Otselot 90, HRT x3, HWT/RR, HWT/FLMR)
    Mechanized Infantry Platoon (Otselot 20 x3, Otselot 90, HRT x3, HWT/RR, HWT/FLMR)
  Mechanized Infantry Company
    Headquarters Section (Otselot Command x2, Otselot ARV)
    Mechanized Infantry Platoon (Otselot 20 x3, Otselot 90, HRT x3, HWT/RR, HWT/FLMR)
    Mechanized Infantry Platoon (Otselot 20 x3, Otselot 90, HRT x3, HWT/RR, HWT/FLMR)
    Mechanized Infantry Platoon (Otselot 20 x3, Otselot 90, HRT x3, HWT/RR, HWT/FLMR)
  Mortar Battery
    Headquarters Section (Otselot Command)
    Mortar Section (Otselot 120 x2)
    Mortar Section (Otselot 120 x2)
    Mortar Section (Otselot 120 x2)
  Mortar Battery
    Headquarters Section (Otselot Command)
    Artillery Section (Tsar x2)
    Artillery Section (Tsar x2)
    Artillery Section (Tsar x2)

I can't think of any major combat elements I'm missing, so I think I'll call that a done unit.  There's 36 of them in the Mriyan inventory, with an estimated 4,400 personnel in each regiment (including supporting 'division slice' elements).  That's a thousand Hepards and Levs, yikes...but they've been producing tanks for decades so it only makes sense they'd have a lot.  Unlike Gensoukyou, the budget is not an issue...

[ANS Kamas P81]

And with Gensoukyou developing missile technology in the 2480s and equipping their helicopters with it, it didn't take long after building their first antitank missiles to retrofit their 2464-vintage APC with a dedicated ATGM launcher and a number of reloadable missile tubes.  This design actually predates the Type 88 helicopter by a few years, introduced in 2485.  Unlike later vehicles, they're only medium ATGMs, fitting the TL3 restriction on equipment of that era.

Unlike most of its contemporary Type 60s-series vehicles, the Type 85 would soldier on to 2530, with 28 vehicles remaining in the inventory dispersed among the mechanized infantry regiments.  It currently serves alongside the heavy-ATGM-carrying Type 18 IFV, with both missile types issued together.

[Failure16]

Sure, the Russians talk a great game with their doctrine. If they could use it like the 11th ACR does, they would probably do quite well for themselves. Luckily, they do not.

Kamas, as Lead Beta Tester^TM, it is your job to force the system to its limits, and you are only making it better by trying to increase its bandwidth. Everything you have done is awesome and very greatly appreciated!

I apologize for not being able to get the trailers to come out on-the-nose, but with your testing I think we will get closer than we are with the version you have in-hand. The new one will be available for send-out realsoon.

Really digging the Type 88, and the upgraded "G"-ride.

I think the Mriyan CAR would be a tough customer for a lot of forces to fight. Especially if they are used as a cavalry force. On the true defense or assault they would have to be careful, but for their weight, they provide some serious shock-power.

[Daryk]

OMG!  I feel like this guy should be in this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8R32wuYVe4

And seriously, that TO&E should be dropped straight into the Fringe without a single change! :D

[ANS Kamas P81]

Yeah, Mexico's cav force is so Fringe it hurts.  I mean, freaking halftracks and Greyhounds alongside ERC-90s, and a 21st century assault rifle alongside G3s.

Alright, a bunch of CARs in the Mriyan inventory.  I'll need to work out how many compared to standard BCTs, but I feel like the Mriyans are going to be CAR heavy like the Russians with their 260+ BTGs when they invaded Ukraine in 2022.  A few Mechanized Infantry BCTs to fill out the core of the army, then layering on a couple dozen CARs for freewheeling forward operations.  It also gives me room to have one or two dedicated CARs as training units like the Blackhorse that, for the most part, can give a standup fight to a visiting unit.

Thanks for the kudos, F16; I'm just trying to help break/make Tankreator into what it can really do, and even if things aren't spot-on accurate I can live with that - there's tradeoffs in all things, and it's bloody realistic enough as it is.  It's more a situation of adding on edge cases and equipment that have limited utility at this point; you built it into one hell of a game maker.  But I will take that title and roll with it.

Since you liked the Type 88 and the G mod, have its arguably better armed rival.  As cool as Airwolf is, though, there's something about that big faceted cockpit of Blue Thunder that I love...plus that M61 Vulcan gun chewing through targets.  Wish I could have put more ammo in, but she's pretty light on space as it is, so I'll live with 64 short bursts from the gun.

[Failure16]

Good video, Daryk. There are half tracks in the Fringe--produced on Svealand by Sodertalje AB--as well as Greyhoundalikes (still used by the LCG, of course)--so they would be an easy fix. Probably on Montelimar, which is an ancient Gronfalt-linked colony with heavy Central American undertones. That would be right up their alley.

Yeah, I'm a Blue Thunder fan vice Air Wolf, insofar as major equipment goes. I did not live in the States at the time either aired, so I didn't watch the shows, but I still have a heavily-worn Matchbox Air Wolf in a box somewhere. They were a part of childhood in the 80s growing up, even if you didn't have a television to watch them, and emblematic of a different time.

That version really makes the Air Wolf a looker, though. And it's name would fit in with Merriweather's Wolf family. Hmmmmmm. We'd have to change the name a tad to avoid copywrite infringement, but I wonder...

And then there is Chopper Cops, from the early 90s, for those dimestore/barracks novel-aficionados.


They were heavily-modified MD500s, if memory serves, but its been a few decades...

[Failure16]

Thanks for the kudos, F16; I'm just trying to help break/make Tankreator into what it can really do, and even if things aren't spot-on accurate I can live with that - there's tradeoffs in all things, and it's bloody realistic enough as it is.  It's more a situation of adding on edge cases and equipment that have limited utility at this point; you built it into one hell of a game maker.  But I will take that title and roll with it.

Since you liked the Type 88 and the G mod, have its arguably better armed rival.  As cool as Airwolf is, though, there's something about that big faceted cockpit of Blue Thunder that I love...plus that M61 Vulcan gun chewing through targets.  Wish I could have put more ammo in, but she's pretty light on space as it is, so I'll live with 64 short bursts from the gun.

It is well-deserved. Everyone here is awesome for what they have done over the years. And I thank every one of you!

[Failure16]

Thanks to that video, now I have to have a "Light Rifle Team", for those apostates that cannot manage to field SAWs in their infantry fire teams. Wonderful!

[Daryk]

Just happy to kick in a dime here and there! :D

[ANS Kamas P81]

More options in Tankreator!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULfmowbNlK0

Speaking of videos, have the opening credits to Airwolf.  The theme music is arguably better for that show compared to Blue Thunder's, but that's not to say Blue Thunder's music isn't good - it's definitely memorable and contemplative compared to the 80s synth action of Airwolf's theme.

What to call it?  The Skywolf immediately comes to mind, and would fit Merriweather's naming conventions.  Though, does the helicopter itself fit in?  Two .50 MGs, four .30 MGs, and twelve mixed missiles at a blistering speed of 39 MA isn't a huge amount of firepower but it'll get those guns to a target damned fast.  Plus it's got those four (light) AAMs onboard to take on other helicopters with, and has plenty of its own self-protection.

Chopper Cops...well, it can't be as bad as the Wingman novels, can it?

[Daryk]

I think "more geography than state" perfectly describes Longways! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRO0fRznNew

[Failure16]

More options in Tankreator!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULfmowbNlK0

Speaking of videos, have the opening credits to Airwolf.  The theme music is arguably better for that show compared to Blue Thunder's, but that's not to say Blue Thunder's music isn't good - it's definitely memorable and contemplative compared to the 80s synth action of Airwolf's theme.

What to call it?  The Skywolf immediately comes to mind, and would fit Merriweather's naming conventions.  Though, does the helicopter itself fit in?  Two .50 MGs, four .30 MGs, and twelve mixed missiles at a blistering speed of 39 MA isn't a huge amount of firepower but it'll get those guns to a target damned fast.  Plus it's got those four (light) AAMs onboard to take on other helicopters with, and has plenty of its own self-protection.

Chopper Cops...well, it can't be as bad as the Wingman novels, can it?

Sky Wolf was originally taken by the M10-series ADV, but that can easily be retrofitted; Blue Wolf is more in keeping with the "[color] Wolf" theme of that light tank line anyways. The only issue I have with Air Wolf was the quad belly array. Dakka is great and all, but I'd rather have something like rockets. Although, it carries roughly the same amount of gunpower as a UH-1C gunship, so maybe I'll take that back.

Ah, Wingman. I think I got up to War of the Sun (Book 10). Almost certainly the archetype of barracks-novels (alongside anything by Mack Bolan, which I did not get into) and the early ones were good enough for what they were. Like most series, eventually things started to go off the rails.

[Failure16]

Just happy to kick in a dime here and there! :D

More than greatly appreciated, as always. And that video on Colombia is great, as always. Glad to see it again!

[ANS Kamas P81]

I read the one where the Vice President sold out the US to the Soviets and caused WWIII, and just shook my head through the whole novel.  Not that I wouldn't love to see more F-16 love, because damn if that book didn't enjoy the Fighting Falcon so much.  It was just the absurdity of the situation, and how impossibly great Wingman was - mastering flying a V-22 from never having seen one in a single day, for example, is something I'll never forget.

Sky Wolf could easily be the name of the helicopter, relabeling the ADV Blue Wolf for the sky theme.  And that belly launcher...I figured the ATGM(L) launcher and the four LAAMs were a fair compromise for the tribarrel missile pod, though I don't disagree with you about having a rocket pack.  Blue Wolf puts all its money on its engines, though, and goes balls-out for a helicopter at 390km/h.  She's as much scout, with that basic stealth, as she is gunship - and with those four AAMs, makes a decent scout chopper killer as well.

[chanman]

The main advantage I'm seeing is the convergence of 5.56 and 7.62 to a single bore size, even if there's still two kinds of ammo... ;)

Also, I'm seeing a bump up from the M249 at 5.56, but I don't see a comparison to the M240...  Hmmm...

I think part of the attraction is continuing the unbroken streak of procuring to fight the last war :D