Star League - Third Time's a Charm

[Brigoon]

Is Clan Wolf really down to 7 Galaxies worth of troops? Not counting what forces are in the Empire

Loving the book and all the gems I keep finding

[Geg]

I can answer IKEO questions now.

Do we know what happened with the Fidelis on New Earth.  The ones that stayed behind and didn't become the NuJags?

[Blkbr2020]

Do we know what happened with the Fidelis on New Earth.  The ones that stayed behind and didn't become the NuJags?

Well the CC lost an entire regiment that jumped to New Earth. And then when they invaded with other troops the Fidelis were not there. Perhaps they used their warship from Forever Faithful? Hidden Destiny. Still no idea what class of warship it was. Or they could have just been sneaky to take out the dropship and jump ship I suppose.

[Metallgewitter]

I do have to chuckle that Clan Wolf went from 75 clusters and their huge Wolf Empire that was essentially impervious to about 20 Clusters and a slightly smaller Prefecture X without a Fortress wall. And some of those planets aren't even owned by Clan Wolf, they're essentially still Republic-owned.

Kind of a self-own.

More like a fullfillment of Stone's prediction during Shattered Fortress "They are Wolf territory" which Tucker commented with "Ah yes, perception is 9/10th of the law" or something similar

[ANS Kamas P81]

So the original Star League was noted for its entire homogenous regiments of 'Mechs, where you'd have a hundred-plus Warhammers in a single unit for example.  Anastasia Kerensky isn't stupid and knows she needs as many BattleMechs for the new SLDF as possible, so activating all the various production lines on Earth is the only real option.

But what if she was planning on one-upping the old SLDF and standardizing on a few BattleMech designs for the various roles?  What production lines on-world would you focus on and expand for a fast scout/scout killer, a main battle 'Mech, and a fire support machine?  It's got to be limited to what's on-world for production, since the Wolf Empire is apparently a very unreliable source for men and machines.

Pick anything you like for the three roles, Clan or IS technology, and defend your choices.  I'm curious to see what people would compromise on for the three roles.

[Metallgewitter]

Doloire. Omni Mech, already a mixture of Clan and IS technologies. You can design more configurations but it would make for some strong Assault battalions

If the Ilclan can stomach drones you might use Celerities for scouting and quick strike roles. Those beasts are fiendishly fast so there is that

[Mendrugo]

Do we know what happened with the Fidelis on New Earth.  The ones that stayed behind and didn't become the NuJags?

The Fidelis left New Earth, but they left a message behind for the Jaguars to find (once they cleared out a pesky Glorious Redemption infestation). 

[cmerwin]

In the Nova Cat thread we have been discussing the character Raus, from Trial of Birthright, and I also wanted some perspective from folk who follow Third Star League but don't necessarily read the Nova Cat thread. This is an edited version of something I recently posted there.

I think it’s significant that Raus is most frequently referred to by other warriors as “the Nova Cat” throughout the book, which I also really like, because I think he displays a lot of the Nova Cat clan qualities. Alaric also refers to him directly as: “Raus of the Nova Cats” (before then pointing out that Raus is not Clan) and even Anastasia makes a "Nova Cat" comment. Raus’s words and actions in the book also make for an interesting possible future and I hope he sticks around as a character.

But the reason I think it is interesting that so many characters refer to Raus as 'the Nova Cat', and not by his rank Star Colonel - or his Bloodname  , is that this is the Court of the Star League and the center of Star League Protectorate. Despite Raus's own words, it is effectively legitimizing the existence of the Nova Cats.

After reading Raus’s various passages in the book, I don’t think he means ‘Mystic’ [sub-caste] with a capital ‘em’, just the standard Nova Cat variety of mysticism when he tells Alaric that he has been a mystic. In itself I think this is interesting though because it probably means he is an “old school” Nova Cat and not one of the Kesari, i.e. the Combine Nova Cats who abandoned the spiritual elements of the Clan.

This is backed up textually by Loremaster Helmer’s comment: “Still, Noritomo had personally known some Nova Cats, and they had proven fearsome warriors, honorable allies, and for all their oddities, devoted to the visions they received” (Trial of Birthright, 134).

What follows is a series of light spoilers that I would love thoughts on from those who have read the book.

A) what single sentence was on that piece of paper to cause Alaric to not only reinstate Raus’s rank, but appoint him assistant (to the) Loremaster? Appointing a  “former” Nova Cat as the assistant (to the) Loremaster of the Star League seems like a really big deal. This is a potentially powerful position for someone from an Abjured Clan, and we know in the rest of the book that Raus's status as a Nova Cat is known by the other warriors.

B) there is another oddity that I was curious about and would love collective thoughts on: Raus’s appearance.

His bearing is remarkable enough that nearly everyone seeing him automatically assumes he has a Bloodname (and now we know the Lossey Bloodhouse survives). He is in remarkable – warrior – shape, but is incredibly skinny and disheveled. Long beard, long dirty unkempt hair. This leads me to speculate that he was in hiding with Kisho Nova Cat’s group.

[ANS Kamas P81]

Doloire. Omni Mech, already a mixture of Clan and IS technologies. You can design more configurations but it would make for some strong Assault battalions

Doloire is a strong contender and has some nice configs, though I'm disappointed there's not a dedicated fire support variant.  The C model wastes a lot of tonnage on a C3 master and only has one LRM20.  Coming up with a custom variant's easy enough...

The idea for Celerities is a good one, but assume that Kerensky wants butts in seats for her scout forces.  VTOLs obviously make more mobile scouts, but the need is for something that can provide recon as well as kill other scouts.  Something fast, jumpy, and with high firepower for its weight, and made on Earth.

[Wrangler]

So I'm slowly reading the IKEO, I'm curious what role of the SLDF is going be.   They seem to destined to be defensive arm, garrison force.  While the Clans themselves offensive side of it.   Which would channel their aggression, but i'm not sure how a true Star League is going work with Clans.  Their not social-structured for that.

[cmerwin]

So I'm slowly reading the IKEO, I'm curious what role of the SLDF is going be.   They seem to destined to be defensive arm, garrison force.  While the Clans themselves offensive side of it.   Which would channel their aggression, but i'm not sure how a true Star League is going work with Clans.  Their not social-structured for that.

For what it's worth, Trial of Birthright spends a lot of space discussing that, so it's clearly something that is being considered.

[Alan Grant]

I haven't read Trial of Birthright or IKEO yet. On the Star League SLDF vs Clanners....

The reality, and this was true for the formation of the original Clans as well, you need a generation to live under the Clan Way before the population are fully acclimated. After Op. Klondike, the Clans were like the hybrid of the new and the old and they had a lot of problems. Several Clans spent their early years putting down internal revolts from within, even within their own warrior caste from among the Pentagon World citizens they adopted as warriors.

It wasn't until enough time and generations had passed that the old ways were gone that you truly saw the Clans we came to know.

In theory, the same is going to have to be true for the 3rd Star League. They need time, as measured in generations, to really cement themselves. To have a generation be born, grow up under, and feel a strong understanding and sense of connection to the 3rd Star League and the ilClan. To have grown up under this hybrid culture and way of life and feel a sense of loyalty toward it.

That's what a generation of people got under the Republic of the Sphere. Heck, if not that long, at least 10-15 years or something. A meaningful chunk of time.

But I can tell already, that it's very unclear whether the ilClan will get that kind of time to do that. So the current era represents a messy beginning and possibly a middle chapter. But it's far from certain whether it'll survive long enough that we see its true maturation.

So I think that's the correct way to look at the ilClan/3rd Star League right now. It's not what the ilClan/3rd Star League would strive to be once it had fully matured and acclimated/indoctrinated its new population. In the long run of a history book where this power did survive for generations, what we're reading now is this messy origin story, and if you could skip ahead a couple generations (and if this government had survived that long) you could find yourself staring at something that is very different than what we see currently.

Whatever these books are presenting now as the state of things. Represents the interim, the necessary solutions now and in the near-term.

[Wrangler]

Only thing that truly bothered me Was when Alaric decided he wanted make the citizens of Terra become Clan, which is totally opposite way he was prior to that.  Wolf Empire Clan Wolf used the soft touch on the civilians.  Clearly worked, again seems likely another left turn and bottle of stupid pills were consumed again.  He knew the economy would be disaster, he is a Warrior but his mother hounded him and schooled him.  He showed he understood the economics didn't work with Inner Sphere civilization. Its most jarring thing when character takes very huge left turn from way they were portrayed in previous novels.   Also, Giving away the warships?  Doesn't the SLDF need damn things?   What heck happened to the ships Republic was using, the could have been salvaged.  Nevermind the never seen Warspite (flawed Republic Warship design, likely never get stats like Ventura) which had number ships built.

[Mendrugo]

If you look at Empire Alone, the Gienah writeup says that Clan systems were not imposed.  However, throughout the main body text, there are three instances cited when Clan administrators forcibly imposed Clan caste systems and economic structures, and got varying degrees of pushback. 

Alaric, focused on the Falcons, Operation Eruptio, and Terra, was probably unaware of the problems the Clan method was causing throughout the Empire, since he didn't see anything going awry on Gienah.  He opted to impose Clan systems on Terra to send a message, right when he was flying high off his victory and coronation, and still believed that swarms of Wolf civvies would be flooding in from the Empire to oversee the cultural shift, along with legions of Ghost Bears.

Then things went off plan.

[Metallgewitter]

On the Clan vs SLDF argument. The main issue is how the sizes will develop. Right now the SLDF is still "small" although Anastasia wants to form new regiments already. Meanwhile the Wolves lost more of their trueborn warriors against the CCAF. Losses they simply can't replace considering their genetic stock is still in the Empire and they have to build new gene labs and Iron wombs on Terra (I wonder how many Wolf scientists actually survived considering how ruthless some of the Terran resistance was). Look it at it this way: it takes 16 years for sibko members to reach their trial of position. And remember not all sibko members make it that far. 16 years. In the meantime what other options does Alaric have? Harvest trials? Against whom? The Foxes that will probably stamp IOU on his forehead if he tries that. The Ravens who are playing their own game? The Bears who lost a third of their touman to Alaric's decision to reject them and compared the Dominion vote to the Rimworlds Republic vote to join the original Star League. Imagine the Bears would hear THAT comparism. The Horses as of now have told him to pound sand even if the rising star Cobb has allegedly hinted they should join the new League so they are out. And the Jaguars and Falcons are way too small. He will have to rely more and more on the SLDF which in turn will probably strengthen Anastasia. And if he rides out again to fight the Free Worlds League this will result in more losses to the Wolf touman (also to consider is that Othar raided the sibkos to fill his army and they are already dying in battle or ending up as Wolf's Dragoons). If the decision is to limit the SLDF then the Wolves will be forced to fight with one hand tied behinmd their back for at least a couple of years.

[Geg]

The Fidelis left New Earth, but they left a message behind for the Jaguars to find (once they cleared out a pesky Glorious Redemption infestation).

Where can I find this in the material.

[Mendrugo]

Where can I find this in the material.

Sidebar “The Old Homestead” on p. 64

[Geg]

On the Clan vs SLDF argument. The main issue is how the sizes will develop. Right now the SLDF is still "small" although Anastasia wants to form new regiments already. Meanwhile the Wolves lost more of their trueborn warriors against the CCAF. Losses they simply can't replace considering their genetic stock is still in the Empire and they have to build new gene labs and Iron wombs on Terra (I wonder how many Wolf scientists actually survived considering how ruthless some of the Terran resistance was). Look it at it this way: it takes 16 years for sibko members to reach their trial of position. And remember not all sibko members make it that far. 16 years. In the meantime what other options does Alaric have? Harvest trials? Against whom? The Foxes that will probably stamp IOU on his forehead if he tries that. The Ravens who are playing their own game? The Bears who lost a third of their touman to Alaric's decision to reject them and compared the Dominion vote to the Rimworlds Republic vote to join the original Star League. Imagine the Bears would hear THAT comparism. The Horses as of now have told him to pound sand even if the rising star Cobb has allegedly hinted they should join the new League so they are out. And the Jaguars and Falcons are way too small. He will have to rely more and more on the SLDF which in turn will probably strengthen Anastasia. And if he rides out again to fight the Free Worlds League this will result in more losses to the Wolf touman (also to consider is that Othar raided the sibkos to fill his army and they are already dying in battle or ending up as Wolf's Dragoons). If the decision is to limit the SLDF then the Wolves will be forced to fight with one hand tied behinmd their back for at least a couple of years.

I completely agree with you that the Khaganate's (CW, CJF, CSJ) Trueborn Clan Warriors is going to be extremely thin of the next couple of decades.  That is unless Alaric authorizes a very aggressive Sibco repatriation projects, then the SLDF is clearly going to become the dominant military force of the 3rd League.  Especially if you factor in that the SLDF is also absorbing Solahma.

We already have a series of books around Jiyi's shenanigans in trying to recover man power along with the Trial of Birthright.  I really struggle to see a lot of ink getting types showing how this problem gets addressed again.  I suspect we will move forward a couple of years and the Star League Clans will have muddled through.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Anyone have any idea while Alaric has stayed khan of clan wolf or hasn’t appointed one? Other ilKhans left their clan (in theory anyway) to focus on being the ilKhan. Being ilKhan and the figurehead of the Star Leauge seems like a huge job, top of being a regular Khan

[Scotty]

Because he has a massive ego and wants to wear all three crowns at once.

[Gorgon]

Also his position is not like other IlKhans before. Alaric didn't win his personal right to become IlKhan on Terra -  Clan Wolf won the right to be IlClan. One could argue that there is no need for Alaric to step down from his position in Clan Wolf to indicate he stand neutral at the head of all Clans equally. Because all Clans are no longer equal before the law. The IlClan stands above the rest, so why not have the IlKhan be the Khan of Clan Wolf (and the other way around)?

[Geg]

Somewhere it was mentioned that Ulric was the last ilKhan to leave their Clan's Khanship.  I assume that the president of being both Khan and ilKhan was established in WoR by the Vipers (not near my PDF library to check that out).

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Somewhere it was mentioned that Ulric was the last ilKhan to leave their Clan's Khanship.  I assume that the president of being both Khan and ilKhan was established in WoR by the Vipers (not near my PDF library to check that out).

Yes it was (a few pages into the interstellar players section),right where I had stopped reading before asking the question.

I can’t describe it properly but having two factions holding the same territory and same leader with different objectives seems hard to comprehend/manage. Idk but something just seems weird with it, especially with ilClan wolf and empire wolf so split-up.

I’m doing a poor job of vocalizing what I am actually thinking here.

[tassa_kay]

I think you're overthinking it a bit, and Gorgon and Scotty are dead-on. Alaric is 1) supremely arrogant and riding the ultimate high right now and 2) has an unprecedented amount of power to set the rules of the game to his liking. Is it the smartest thing in the world, to have him wearing all these hats at once? Of course it's not... and that's kind of the point.

[Church14]

Him thinking he can do all three jobs is the supreme arrogance, and ToB shows that he absolutely can’t. Which is why Noritomo and Chance are doing mountains of work outside their typical roles.

But also, I think Alaric falsely thinks are three are - on some level - one and the same. To him, Wolf is the ilclan, and the ilclan is the Star League itself, with others joining his League under the wolves. Chance, Noritomo, and Anastasia all see the differences, and each then focused on specific roles Alaric isn’t admitting he’s not doing.

[Metallgewitter]

I was also thinking that clan wolf might become what the Terran Hegemony was back in the original Star League: the core of the IS and with that also the "ruler" of the Star League. But at the moment it seems more like that there is no real distinction (the only so far is the SLDF which is mainly staffed with former RAF veterans as well as Terran recruits). And perhaps the newly formed BLSA which is now under the control of another Clan. Though maybe the idea is that at one point all Clans will be united as one big Clan

[Wrangler]

Nearly done,  I'm trying really read into the book.   The book is cool and brutal depictions of the carnage to carve out League controlled space.  What I found still needing of explanation.

1) What was disrupting communication between the Empire and the conquered Terra.  At page 119, there no info what could be disputing the comms.   Having already reading Redemption Rites novel, Empire's leadership can't talk to Warrior caste in Terran Space.  The sourcebook reflects same issue and confusion from ilKhan Alaric Ward(-Steiner) not hearing back from the Empire or not getting suport.   What cause of the break?  No JumpShips getting back and forth?

2) End of the Ares Superheavy OmniMech / Prometheus?  Main factory went boom, what happened to Mars factories which not noted built fully and then you have Clan Jade Falcon's destructive invasion of said planet

[Geg]

I don't think it's as simple as just his arrogance. 

Alarics power base is still wholly within Clan Wolf.  Once the 3rd League and the SLDF develops as a power base of its own, the Khan of Clan Wolf will become the heir apparent of the ilKhan / First Lord.  I do expect both the titles of the First Lord of the Great Houses and the ilKhan of the Clans to be resident within the same individual.

[Geg]

Nearly done,  I'm trying really read into the book.   The book is cool and brutal depictions of the carnage to carve out League controlled space.  What I found still needing of explanation.

1)

This was answered in IKEO.  CapCon had cut the Wolves command circuit to the Empire and had been intercepting their messages.

[Wrangler]

This was answered in IKEO.  CapCon had cut the Wolves command circuit to the Empire and had been intercepting their messages.

Thanks, I missed that part.