Land-Air 'Mechs, Total Warfare, and Alpha Strike

[Charistoph]

Why do you always presume I always have the AirMech flying at Elevation 2+? And reducing AirMech's MP when it costs 2MP per hex when flying at any elevation is bad. More so when at higher elevations. If the AirMech's MP is reduced so should the cost of movement.

Because the last time you always went to that case.  This isn't a presumption, just basic memory.  Every time someone brought up something to consider, one of your first critiques was bout the AirMech moving at Elevation 2+, even if that wasn't included in what they were talking about.

The +3 Modifier was applied when the AirMech was in the air "jumping/flying". How many hexes it moves wasn't a factor 6 or 16 it still had a +3 modifier. And a +2 Cruise/+3 Flank would still be higher than other units just for moving.  And why should one unit with a 9/14 Cruise/Flank have a +2/+3 AMM when other 9/14 units only have a +1/+2?

It also only had a maximum of a 5+ TMM, as the TMM chart only went to 10+.

And again, the why do that is the reason it needs to be tested.  You do understand the purpose of testing, correct?
 

I answered your question. Then you said you couldn't get a Hover to get a +5. I named one that does. Then I asked how many 20 ton LAMs can carry 10 tons of weapons/ammo. You didn't answer.

No, you didn't, because you skipped the weight qualification.  A Savannah Master weighs in at 1/10th the Pixie-LAM, and I did say a 50 tonner with a Standard Fusion Engine.  I'm not going to bother answering your question because it was irrelevant to what you were quoting.

Actually it doesn't match as we have unit that can match or better the 9/14 minimum AirMech speed now. We've had that for decades. What AirMechs didn't have was the 2MP cost per hex when flying higher. Flanking helps compensate a little for the cost but lower the MP more would be worse than just going back to the old 3XJJ rules and 1MP per hex.

If the minimum speed of an AirMech that doesn't exist was the concern, then this discussion wouldn't be happening.  That's just a red herring and a strawman, at best.  What IS of concern are the units going 15-18MP in Cruise WiGE-mode right now.

And you're going to have to pull a crazy rabbit out of your hat in thinking that going to 2xJJ for Cruise is worse for others than going to the Pre-Jihad rules.  Because those days were not bad for LAMs, just everyone else.

Right now a Stinger LAM's AirMech has a 18/27 Cruise/Flank. At 2+ Elevations the Stinger LAM can only move 13 hexes in a straight line and it cost 1 MP to gain that 1 Elevation. That's 27 MP. Under the old rules the Stinger LAM could move 17 hexes after paying the 1 MP to increase elevation.  That's a big difference. That difference will increase with a lower MP for AirMech mode. That can make it impossible for slow LAMs like the Urbie LAM to function. So you can't lower the MP while keeping the MP cost the same. You have to completely rewrite everything. I don't believe that's necessary.

There's the Elevation 2+ reference again.

And no, I don't have to rewrite everything.  Most of the issues in your problem are resolved in some very basic concepts that already exist, and that Nerroth and yourself were already suggesting.
 

Playing movement properly applies to all units. Some just have more restrictions than others. And why should a unit using 14 MP have to be far more careful than another moving the same 14MP? Especially, when it moved fewer hexes? The two biggest problems are Turn Modes and AMMs. I believe we both agree Turn Modes need to go. That leaves, AMMs which should be the same for AirMechs as for any other unit. Right now, they are not. That's a broken rule not poor piloting.

Actually, the biggest problem is Terrain, particularly forbidden Terrain.  Not approaching the Terrain properly is poor piloting.  An example of such as going to 2+ Elevation when you don't need to.

The problem here is that AirMechs aren't being treated the same as other units when it comes to AMMs. That's wrong. Weight doesn't matter when it comes to AMMs. An Atlas gets the same AMMs as a Savanna Master. What matters is it's movement. Walk/Cruise, Run/Flank, Jumping, etc. Other units, even those flying, get a +1/+2 AMM unless they're jumping. Then it's a +3. AirMechs shouldn't start with higher AMMs for doing the same thing other units are doing. That's a broken rule. AirMechs should start with the same modifiers. That's why I can see AirMech's having a +1/+2 AMM at Elevation 1 and a +2/+3 AMM when flying at 2+ Elevations. That's still higher than WiGEs when flying at higher elevations but is consistent with them jumping. And VTOLs only have the +1/+2 so they still come out ahead but at least they start the same.

And most VTOLs aren't going 15 on a Cruise and have the Firepower of a Medium Mech, while also having the option to use Ground-side Movement that can ignore their forbidden Terrain, or switch to Altitude Flight to just GTFO.

AMM's aren't the only problem.  While they are a notable problem, they must be taken in to account along with all the other capabilities the unit can manage if a certain Movement type proves to be incredibly advantageous, like having a 6+ TMM, with capacity for a 7+ for the average unit of its type.  It's a thing called "Balance".  Maybe you've heard of it?

For in-universe considerations, you're dealing with a skin profile not designed to handle the type of Movement it is using, unlike either the WiGEs they are emulating, nor their Battlemech and Aerospace forms.  In fact, their approach to being able to fly is not the same as the WiGE, it just acts a lot like a WiGE.

[Maingunnery]

What about not considering AirMech-WIGE movement as something with cruise or flank traits, but as a sprint/speed optimized form of JJ?

Fluff:
In AirMech mode a Land-Air-Mech is optimized for ground speed, however this comes with a number of downsides. In AirMech mode the LAM can't perform a torso twist or arm swing, the LAM needs to convert to 'Mech mode to gain full actuation of its limbs. There is also less manual control over the jump jets in AirMech mode as these are controlled through the flight computer, along with all the other flight systems such as the wing surfaces. The reduced actuation and the indirect movement controls reduces weapon accuracy even more severely than using jump movement in 'Mech mode.

Such an interpretation would be an argument for +4 AMM at any distance traveled, but also a decent excuse for high speed (JJx3) and decent movement optimizations.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Well, then LAM have no meaning. At least it have no meaningful its niche without considering AirMech mode, for it's the linchpin of LAM. Seriously, I cannot find a reason to use Battlemech mode, ever, without making a fun model where 'using its battlemech mode' is already a goal to do or put it in on a mech bay, and ASF mode is questionable too, but AirMech is the only thing that no one can mimic and what makes LAM different with the others.

[Maingunnery]

Well, then LAM have no meaning. At least it have no meaningful its niche without considering AirMech mode, for it's the linchpin of LAM. Seriously, I cannot find a reason to use Battlemech mode, ever, without making a fun model where 'using its battlemech mode' is already a goal to do or put it in on a mech bay, and ASF mode is questionable too, but AirMech is the only thing that no one can mimic and what makes LAM different with the others.

That is a self-contradiction. A Land-Air-Mech has three modes, so the ideal is where each mode has a reason for existing (read: useful niche). So something like this:
Fighter-mode: Orbital insertion & exfiltration, so should be able to run from ASF.
AirMech-mode: Fast surface movement
'Mech-mode: Ground Combat

[Charistoph]

That is a self-contradiction. A Land-Air-Mech has three modes, so the ideal is where each mode has a reason for existing (read: useful niche). So something like this:
Fighter-mode: Orbital insertion & exfiltration, so should be able to run from ASF.
AirMech-mode: Fast surface movement
'Mech-mode: Ground Combat

I would add in that 'Mech-mode is for ground combat in terrain that is less-effective for WiGE travel.  Examples would be a thick jungle or underwater, where going in AirMech Mode actually limits mobility/visibility more than it helps, such as needing to use Riflemech's "always on" 2+ Elevation travel.

[Maingunnery]

I would add in that 'Mech-mode is for ground combat in terrain that is less-effective for WiGE travel.  Examples would be a thick jungle or underwater, where going in AirMech Mode actually limits mobility/visibility more than it helps, such as needing to use Riflemech's "always on" 2+ Elevation travel.

And that is bad game-design, which leads to LAM players just staying in AirMech mode, see the earlier YT video from Big Red-40TECH.

[DevianID]

I will say, LAMs only have 1 mode, which is air mech mode.  Yes they can convert, but that only matters if you are playing a narrative campaign/rpg, where flying back to base is part of the story.

In the actual game, the air mech mode is leaps and bounds more in power that, in a 15 turn standard pickup game, there is no reason to use anything else.  If you want a different kind of unit, you would never buy a LAM.  You only bring a LAM for 1 thing, air mech mode, because it is faster and heavier then anything else in the game, and doesnt give up shooting to move that fast.

Is the air mech player time skill intensive?  Yes.  You have to spend time plotting your movement. But turn modes are not 'hard', they just make the movement phase take a while to crunch out how many MP and where you turn, and "opps I need 25 not 24mp so I have to recount my moves/turns, give me a second guys."  And at the end of that movement, you have a +6 tmm with 3 medium lasers, compared to a spider with +4 TMM and 2 medium lasers.  The LAM has more speed, more armor, more heat sinks, more evasion, and only a +4 amm when having +7 TMM speeds instead of +6 with +3 amm.  And spiders arnt even bad mechs!  But air mech just outclassed them that much in the same weight category.

[RifleMech]

Because the last time you always went to that case.  This isn't a presumption, just basic memory.  Every time someone brought up something to consider, one of your first critiques was bout the AirMech moving at Elevation 2+, even if that wasn't included in what they were talking about.

Nope. I often talked about it moving at Elevation 1. The thing is people complain about how fast the AirMech moves and want the AirMech's cruise/flank reduced forgetting several things. 1) The AirMech only moves that fast at that Elevation. It pays 2 per hex above that and reducing the cruise/flank would make moving at those elevations more difficult. 2) Other units are as fast or faster than AirMechs at Elevation 1.

It also only had a maximum of a 5+ TMM, as the TMM chart only went to 10+.

And again, the why do that is the reason it needs to be tested.  You do understand the purpose of testing, correct?

Which was applied to everything. And now TMMs go up to +6 at 25+.

And again, we've had a +3 AMM for AirMech's flying for 40 years. How much more testing does it need?


 

No, you didn't, because you skipped the weight qualification.  A Savannah Master weighs in at 1/10th the Pixie-LAM, and I did say a 50 tonner with a Standard Fusion Engine.  I'm not going to bother answering your question because it was irrelevant to what you were quoting.

No I didn't. Again, I said I didn't know. It is relevant but you won't answer because you know there aren't any.

If the minimum speed of an AirMech that doesn't exist was the concern, then this discussion wouldn't be happening.  That's just a red herring and a strawman, at best.  What IS of concern are the units going 15-18MP in Cruise WiGE-mode right now.

And you're going to have to pull a crazy rabbit out of your hat in thinking that going to 2xJJ for Cruise is worse for others than going to the Pre-Jihad rules.  Because those days were not bad for LAMs, just everyone else.

There's the Elevation 2+ reference again.

And no, I don't have to rewrite everything.  Most of the issues in your problem are resolved in some very basic concepts that already exist, and that Nerroth and yourself were already suggesting.

The UrbanMech LAM does exist. It just isn't canon. More importantly, the minimum number of jump jets requirement, exists. The RULES give a minimum MP for AirMechs of 9/14. Trying to argue about a canonicity of a LAM is red herring and a strawman argument. As the rule requirement exists, LAMs with 3JJ must be factored as if it were canon.

The AMMs for every unit moving 9/14, or better, are +1 Cruise/Walk and +2 Flank/Run, except for AirMechs. Why? And again, why should AirMechs moving 15-18MP be the concern when we have units that can far exceed that?

Pre-Jihad Rules? Do you mean pre-TW rules?  Under the old rules the the AirMech's jumping/flying MP = 3x#JJ. It takes 2 MP to take off, the AirMech must move a minimum of 6 hexes or land, and it takes 2 MP to land. An Urbie LAM with 3JJ could take off, and fly 7 hexes.

Under the current rules; it takes 5 MP to take off and the AirMech must move 5 hexes, or may hover for 5MP. Either way that's a 10MP minimum. With a 2x#JJ MP, the Urbie LAM would have a C/F of 6/9. That is not enough MP for a LAM with the minimum required number or jump jets to fly rules.

For the Stinger LAM, the old rules gave it's AirMech Mode a total of 18 MP when "jumping/flying". At take off, the Stinger LAM can move 16 hexes. With only a 2x#JJ it would have a C/F of 12/18. Again, under the current rules after paying 5 MP to take off it could move a total of 13 hexes.

A Hermes-1A moves as 9/14(18).
A Locust-1V Mech moves 8/12(16).
A Warrior H-7 VTOL moves 9/14(18).
A Harasser hover tank moves 10/15.
A J. Eger hover tank moves 11/17.
(If Sprinting were allowed.)
Advanced tech units move faster.

Please note, both examples are at ELEVATION 1. Under both rules it costs 1MP to increase elevation. Under the old rules it only cost 1MP per hex regardless of elevation. Under the current rules, it costs 2MP per hex at 2+ elevations.  A Stinger LAM with 3x3JJ can travel 18 hexes at elevation 2 (old rules, or 13 hexes (new rules. With a 2x#JJ the Stinger LAM can only move 9 hexes under the new rules. 

So how is a 2x#JJ for a cruise a good thing? LAMs with the minimum number of JJ can't fly and those that can can't out run standard tech units. Even under pre-TW rules a Stinger LAM's 18 AirMech MP had a difficult time out running other fast units.

Actually, the biggest problem is Terrain, particularly forbidden Terrain.  Not approaching the Terrain properly is poor piloting.  An example of such as going to 2+ Elevation when you don't need to.

Sometimes you do need to.

And most VTOLs aren't going 15 on a Cruise and have the Firepower of a Medium Mech, while also having the option to use Ground-side Movement that can ignore their forbidden Terrain, or switch to Altitude Flight to just GTFO.

That means some will go 15 on a Cruise and have the firepower of a medium mech. And while it's true a VTOL can't move on the ground it doesn't cost them 2MP per hex to fly over forbidden terrain. And switching to Fighter mode take place on the ground after the AirMech has landed or at 8+ Elevations. As it costs AirMechs 2MP per hex plus on top of the 1MP per each elevation increase and a VTOL such as a Nightshade (12/18) or even the Warrior-H7 (9/14) is still going to be able to hit a Stinger LAM (18/27) a time or two before it can GTFO.

AMM's aren't the only problem.  While they are a notable problem, they must be taken in to account along with all the other capabilities the unit can manage if a certain Movement type proves to be incredibly advantageous, like having a 6+ TMM, with capacity for a 7+ for the average unit of its type.  It's a thing called "Balance".  Maybe you've heard of it?

Sure I've heard of it. It makes me wonder why you want to unbalance AirMechs more. It also makes me wonder if you are confusing TMMs with BV? Movement TMMs take into account hexes moved and jumped/airborne. That a movement type is advantageous for that unit or not or not isn't relevant. Plenty of unit types are capable of getting a 7+TMM. Not just AirMechs. So why the focus on them?  If you feel that TMMs are too high, then your issue is with the TMM chart, not with AirMechs.

For in-universe considerations, you're dealing with a skin profile not designed to handle the type of Movement it is using, unlike either the WiGEs they are emulating, nor their Battlemech and Aerospace forms.  In fact, their approach to being able to fly is not the same as the WiGE, it just acts a lot like a WiGE.

Agreed that AirMechs are only acting a lot like a WiGE. That doesn't mean they need to be nerfed more than they are though.

[RifleMech]

And that is bad game-design, which leads to LAM players just staying in AirMech mode, see the earlier YT video from Big Red-40TECH.

   BattleMechs are supposed to be the ultimate all-terrain vehicle. So why how is BM Mode being better in some terrain better than AM mode a bad game design when that's the whole point of a BM?

I will say, LAMs only have 1 mode, which is air mech mode.  Yes they can convert, but that only matters if you are playing a narrative campaign/rpg, where flying back to base is part of the story.

In the actual game, the air mech mode is leaps and bounds more in power that, in a 15 turn standard pickup game, there is no reason to use anything else.  If you want a different kind of unit, you would never buy a LAM.  You only bring a LAM for 1 thing, air mech mode, because it is faster and heavier then anything else in the game, and doesnt give up shooting to move that fast.

Is the air mech player time skill intensive?  Yes.  You have to spend time plotting your movement. But turn modes are not 'hard', they just make the movement phase take a while to crunch out how many MP and where you turn, and "opps I need 25 not 24mp so I have to recount my moves/turns, give me a second guys."  And at the end of that movement, you have a +6 tmm with 3 medium lasers, compared to a spider with +4 TMM and 2 medium lasers.  The LAM has more speed, more armor, more heat sinks, more evasion, and only a +4 amm when having +7 TMM speeds instead of +6 with +3 amm.  And spiders arnt even bad mechs!  But air mech just outclassed them that much in the same weight category.

That depends a lot on the game. For me, flying in Fighter Mode doesn't happen because the aerospace rules are a pain. For AirMech Mode about half the time depending on terrain and opponents. Open terrain and terrain that would slow a intro Mech sees more use by AirMech Mode. Canyons and cites are more for Mech Mode see more Mech Mode.
And AirMechs are not faster or heaver than anything else in the game and they give up plenty for the speed. There's plenty that are as fast. Even way back when. Now, there's quite a few units I'd pick over an AirMech just because of their high AMMs and Turn Modes.

As for Turn Modes, they're a pain and total nerf. If terrain allowed for careful movement, slowed the game down too much. If terrain didn't they either had a high chance to crash or lost half their MP.  All while other units can get a TMM as high as the AirMech, with an AMM half as high. And it's worse the LAM converts to Mech Mode. Its not unlike having an UrbanMech on an icy pond while other units on the shore run/drive/fly in circles around it. Only that would be more fun because its an UrbanMech.

Between the Turn Modes, and high AMMs there's no reason to pick a LAM outside a narrative RPG campaign. And then you'd only pick a LAM if you don't want to send a dropship to pick them up when the missions over.

[DevianID]

All while other units can get a TMM as high as the AirMech

I mean you say stuff like that, but havent shown it.  It's not about being able to move 18 hexes with a sprint that makes you lose all your shooting, its about moving for a +7 max TMM and still shooting, with good armor-- with single heatsinks too of all things.  For the price, versus the competition, air mech movement+armor+weapons are grossly higher then the competition.

No one cares that LAMs are fast because they are playing a racing game.  They care that the LAM, in its basic form without other advanced tech, literally flies circles around everything else.  You need lots of advanced tech to start bridging the gap to the 3025 stinger.  The better tech 23mp SNPPC 3MLas phawk with doubles requires far too much effort to kill, while hitting way above its speed category compared to a savanah master or ferret Vtol.

I shared the example of the spider versus the stinger LAM.  Mechs can't compete with the stats LAMs put up.  WIGE vehicles are terrible, a joke.  Vtols don't get near 27 with armor and weapons to back it up, though some good jet boosters get close with high tech late era designs.  What are you playing with that hits +7 TMM that's better then the 80 armor 3 medium laser basic stinger LAM?

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

That is a self-contradiction. A Land-Air-Mech has three modes, so the ideal is where each mode has a reason for existing (read: useful niche). So something like this:
Fighter-mode: Orbital insertion & exfiltration, so should be able to run from ASF.
AirMech-mode: Fast surface movement
'Mech-mode: Ground Combat

Humanity can lie sideway and roll but it does not means human should consider this as one of the main way of movement. What is exists does not means it is useful or reasonable to consider. Especially for Battletech, where many equipments are simply exists to denote its inferiority due to its lower tech level.

Seriously, you need to keep jumping no matter it's AirMech or Battlemech mode to survive, due to its pathetic tonnage and various limitation. And with guaranteed +3 TMM for my attack, why not to cauise more TMM against the opponents? I just cannot think using LAM as battlemech mode. It's a stupid plan unless you want to use a mech bay, for it have really no advantage over normal battlemech, and for positioning and shoot AirMech is already enough. Else what you want to face is nothing more than mere riflemen(not the mech, the infantry I mean).

Although I do concur that it's more reasonable to consider than think about to use the vehicle mode of tracked quadvee. I wonder that it even required to be a quadvee either, unlike wheeled quadvee which have the different traits on both modes at least.

[DevianID]

So puppy using the tracked quadvee movement means you can't fall over.  So it's quite powerful, basically ignoring things that would cause PSRs, especially if you have leg damage, as taking leg crits doesn't slow you, only the tracks reduce the Vee MP.

I agree that wheels giving you a free speed increase for no BV increase is better, but that feels like an oversight.  Like, if a quadvee moves 6/9 and goes to 7/11 using wheels, it should be paying for hitting the higher TMM and such.  I actually have a rule question about that right now in the 'ask rules' section.

[Maingunnery]

Humanity can lie sideway and roll but it does not means human should consider this as one of the main way of movement. What is exists does not means it is useful or reasonable to consider. Especially for Battletech, where many equipments are simply exists to denote its inferiority due to its lower tech level.

Seriously, you need to keep jumping no matter it's AirMech or Battlemech mode to survive, due to its pathetic tonnage and various limitation. And with guaranteed +3 TMM for my attack, why not to cauise more TMM against the opponents? I just cannot think using LAM as battlemech mode. It's a stupid plan unless you want to use a mech bay, for it have really no advantage over normal battlemech, and for positioning and shoot AirMech is already enough. Else what you want to face is nothing more than mere riflemen(not the mech, the infantry I mean).

Unlike those pieces of inferior equipment example, the three modes of a LAM are all part of the LAM. Now the current situation in where many players see no real point in having a battlemech mode is a problem. If the rules were in a good state then players would make regular usage of each mode. So I can't help but see such posts as a confessions.

Thus my idea of making the AirMech mode worse at combat (+4 AMM always) but much better at high speed maneuvering (no turn-modes, no lift-off cost, no unnecessary complexities, etc). Then the AirMech mode would see a lot of use for getting the LAM in the optimum positions, while the target itself would be engaged in BattleMech mode.

[Charistoph]

And that is bad game-design, which leads to LAM players just staying in AirMech mode, see the earlier YT video from Big Red-40TECH.

Umm... How does having the capacity to change to adjust one's self to the environment be bad game-design.  Your statement doesn't really seem to address the statement you quoted, and you didn't really provide a good example as to why that is.  And why would a person remain in AirMech mode when it is to their disadvantage, such as a map that is covered in Jungle/Woods, or where objectives are underwater?

Big Red's video was all the problems with the AirMech mode itself, when I talked about the needs for getting out of AirMech mode.  His only problem with the transformation aspect had nothing to do with gameplay, but how it takes him out-of-universe and in to the Macross universe.

Nope. I often talked about it moving at Elevation 1. The thing is people complain about how fast the AirMech moves and want the AirMech's cruise/flank reduced forgetting several things. 1) The AirMech only moves that fast at that Elevation. It pays 2 per hex above that and reducing the cruise/flank would make moving at those elevations more difficult. 2) Other units are as fast or faster than AirMechs at Elevation 1.

You talk about it for one sentence, and then in the same paragraph you go to higher Elevation flight, then you don't touch Elevation 1 height again in the same post.  So, you're always assuming an Elevation 2+ height in your posts.

Which was applied to everything. And now TMMs go up to +6 at 25+.

+7 because they are Airborne.  Which means there's a different level of standards and balance that needs to be accounted for.

And again, we've had a +3 AMM for AirMech's flying for 40 years. How much more testing does it need?

???  Not for 40 years.  30 years, maybe, if you want to consider that time between Total Warfare and Interstellar Operations' releases as using the Tactical Handbook rules.  Of which, that was a Jump, not a Cruise/Flank Movement, Stinger-LAMs went only 18 instead of a possible 27.   So, again, different paradigm so a different capacity of testing would be needed, one way or the other.
 

No I didn't. Again, I said I didn't know. It is relevant but you won't answer because you know there aren't any.

Please don't lie.  It's in the record above.

The UrbanMech LAM does exist. It just isn't canon.

Please provide the official Record Sheet for it then.  If you can't, it doesn't exist.

More importantly, the minimum number of jump jets requirement, exists. The RULES give a minimum MP for AirMechs of 9/14. Trying to argue about a canonicity of a LAM is red herring and a strawman argument. As the rule requirement exists, LAMs with 3JJ must be factored as if it were canon.

Nope, as the direction of the commentary was about how fast something could go, not how slow it could go.  You bringing up a custom LAM deliberately made to go as slow as possible is irrelevant when discussing how fast something can go, and thus you are bringing up the red herrings.  Please stop projecting on to me.

The AMMs for every unit moving 9/14, or better, are +1 Cruise/Walk and +2 Flank/Run, except for AirMechs. Why? And again, why should AirMechs moving 15-18MP be the concern when we have units that can far exceed that?

I've given answers for that.  You've ignored them or split up the answers to strawman them.  Go back and look back at what I've said if you want the answer.

Pre-Jihad Rules? Do you mean pre-TW rules?  Under the old rules the the AirMech's jumping/flying MP = 3x#JJ. It takes 2 MP to take off, the AirMech must move a minimum of 6 hexes or land, and it takes 2 MP to land. An Urbie LAM with 3JJ could take off, and fly 7 hexes.

I mean before the Jihad was introduced in to the Canon.  So, again, you're going to need to explain how this is poor for other players that the LAM is so limited.

Under the current rules; it takes 5 MP to take off and the AirMech must move 5 hexes, or may hover for 5MP. Either way that's a 10MP minimum. With a 2x#JJ MP, the Urbie LAM would have a C/F of 6/9. That is not enough MP for a LAM with the minimum required number or jump jets to fly rules.

That's because you are focusing on one change while ignoring everything else.  Maybe catch up before casting such judgement.  Part of the change would include the removing of the 10 MP cost of taking off, and it would be at what WiGE's requirements are at, which eliminates the need to go 5 hexes in the same Turn as you Take-off.  This was explained a couple times, but you ignore it, just like you ignore that there are other options than Elevation 2+ flight.  Since you're ignoring that, we can ignore your example as it is a strawman argument as a result.

Sometimes you do need to.

The only time you need to go higher Elevation is if you're planning on converting to Aerospace Mode while in flight.  At all other times, it is a preference or a choice, not a need.  Again, being a poor pilot does not mean a nerf to an advantage isn't needed in order to nerf a disadvantage or 3.

Sure I've heard of it. It makes me wonder why you want to unbalance AirMechs more. It also makes me wonder if you are confusing TMMs with BV? Movement TMMs take into account hexes moved and jumped/airborne. That a movement type is advantageous for that unit or not or not isn't relevant. Plenty of unit types are capable of getting a 7+TMM. Not just AirMechs. So why the focus on them?  If you feel that TMMs are too high, then your issue is with the TMM chart, not with AirMechs.

There's a red herring argument.  Balance isn't only about the cost to put a unit on the table and no one has brought that up.  We've only been talking about the costs of using the unit on the table itself.

There are, at best, only 2 types of unit types that can MAYBE reach a 7+ TMM besides the AirMech: VTOLs and WiGES.  Basic Battlemechs and ground-based Combat Vehicles can't because of the limitations in their builds are such that in order to get the base movement needed, they don't have the room for the Jump Jets needed in order to get that +1 for going airborne.  For someone always harping on what is possible, you seem to forget a lot of basics when trying to do that possible.

A WiGE can't at 50 tons, because there isn't an Engine big enough.  It requires a 610 rated Engine, and that's just trying to match the Pixie-LAM.  A WiGE at 30 tons can get to 15 (barely, with 3.5 tons bare naked), but not to 18, as the Engine is almost 3 times the mass of the Vehicle, even using XXL tech.

VTOLs can't manage the tonnage of the Pixie-LAM, and those VTOLs that try to match the Stinger or WASP AirMech speed can't as that puts them 4 tons over, even otherwise bare-naked.  One can manage a 17/26 flight, but that leaves only 3.5tons left to work with for both Armor and weaponry.

Lastly, none of them can transform to go in to Woods or underwater or convert to ASF and simply leave the map for the Altitude Map.

Agreed that AirMechs are only acting a lot like a WiGE. That doesn't mean they need to be nerfed more than they are though.

In order to nerf some problems it may be justified to nerf some of their advantages.  This is a basic concept of balance.  So in order to justify nerfing the Turn Mode and AMM requirements, a slower speed may be needed.  Again, this is called "balance".  Just nerfing the disadvantages only leaves the advantages.

[Maingunnery]

Umm... How does having the capacity to change to adjust one's self to the environment be bad game-design.

I did not say that.
A proper transformable unit would have equally valuable modes, seeing the BM mode as just for specific terrain does not cut it.

And why would a person remain in AirMech mode when it is to their disadvantage, such as a map that is covered in Jungle/Woods, or where objectives are underwater?

Considering how the BattleMech mode is talked about I really do not believe that they attacking player would take a LAM if they knew that the objective was in such terrain.

[Hammer]

   MOD NOTE 

Going to open this back up, but I want to be crystal clear: the Mod team is very aware of how LAM threads go.

Some of the posts have come danger close to breaking a few different rules around conduct and contributing. Let's not cross into insulting one another or arguing in circles. Discussions should be constructive and respectful.

If we have to come back, the thread will be locked and warnings will be given out.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

So puppy using the tracked quadvee movement means you can't fall over.  So it's quite powerful, basically ignoring things that would cause PSRs, especially if you have leg damage, as taking leg crits doesn't slow you, only the tracks reduce the Vee MP.

I agree that wheels giving you a free speed increase for no BV increase is better, but that feels like an oversight.  Like, if a quadvee moves 6/9 and goes to 7/11 using wheels, it should be paying for hitting the higher TMM and such.  I actually have a rule question about that right now in the 'ask rules' section.

Oh, I didn't thought that the chance of PSR on struck by 20+ points of damage. Although I don't think that it's quite notable feature since those are quad mechs as well, but still it's worth considering sometimes.

And what I want to mean is the meaning of each mode.

Unlike those pieces of inferior equipment example, the three modes of a LAM are all part of the LAM. Now the current situation in where many players see no real point in having a battlemech mode is a problem. If the rules were in a good state then players would make regular usage of each mode. So I can't help but see such posts as a confessions.

Thus my idea of making the AirMech mode worse at combat (+4 AMM always) but much better at high speed maneuvering (no turn-modes, no lift-off cost, no unnecessary complexities, etc). Then the AirMech mode would see a lot of use for getting the LAM in the optimum positions, while the target itself would be engaged in BattleMech mode.

Well being the part of it doesn't means it is useful. I wonder that you want to say 'it's wrong to think that it's not useful', or 'it's wrong to leave it to be useless', though. Perhaps it's the latter.

Still, although +4 AMM is sucks, but +3 AMM is already sucks enough and despite 2d6 gives even a single +1 a meaning, it's not so meaningful price for kick away the turn modes and most other annoying things.

Asides, the problem is, one of the important part of the accuracy of ground battle is target movement modifier. You know, LAMs are tend to have the weaker engine, or have the other problem, compared by the normal mechs with same tonnage. The gap is only got worse when there are XL engines everywhere. Lights are already whining about the presence of the pulse lasers, and they have the point. LAMs in battlemech mode have the similar problem for although they may have more armor points but generally more slower as well.

Also, is there much point on moving several dozen hexes then switching to the mech mode in the lance to company level of fight, that is too small to be considered as the tactical level? The direct fire weapons the ground armors access are usually about 20+ hexes as the maximum range and the effective range is shorter than that. Isn't better to just keep maintain the airmech mode and keep shooting while circling the enemy?

[Maingunnery]

Well being the part of it doesn't means it is useful. I wonder that you want to say 'it's wrong to think that it's not useful', or 'it's wrong to leave it to be useless', though. Perhaps it's the latter.

There are many ways to look at this. Like, does it encourage players to use the LAMs as written? Not using a mode also makes the rules for that mode just wasted space. An unused mode also makes damages the suspension-of-disbelief, for the people in universe should have noticed that one mode was effectively unnecessary.

Still, although +4 AMM is sucks, but +3 AMM is already sucks enough and despite 2d6 gives even a single +1 a meaning, it's not so meaningful price for kick away the turn modes and most other annoying things.

I was also thinking of reducing lift-off cost to one MP.

Asides, the problem is, one of the important part of the accuracy of ground battle is target movement modifier. You know, LAMs are tend to have the weaker engine, or have the other problem, compared by the normal mechs with same tonnage. The gap is only got worse when there are XL engines everywhere. Lights are already whining about the presence of the pulse lasers, and they have the point. LAMs in battlemech mode have the similar problem for although they may have more armor points but generally more slower as well.

Also, is there much point on moving several dozen hexes then switching to the mech mode in the lance to company level of fight, that is too small to be considered as the tactical level? The direct fire weapons the ground armors access are usually about 20+ hexes as the maximum range and the effective range is shorter than that. Isn't better to just keep maintain the airmech mode and keep shooting while circling the enemy?

Company level games would actually help the LAM side, as the AirMech mode would allow the LAMs to quickly position themselves at weak points in the enemy formation, then spend a short time in 'Mech mode (with low AMM) to exploit the weak points. In this the combination of the modes working together allows for opportunities caused by enemy mistakes to be exploited. This should be a far better experience for both players.

[RifleMech]

I can make a 50 ton WiGE with the same amount of armor, more firepower, that's capable of hitting 23MP as a Phoenix Hawk LAM.
I can make a 25 ton VTOL that has as much armor, more firepower and can hit 30MP as a Stinger LAM.
I'm sure I can build other really fast units but I don't need to. We have a Fireball that can hit 40MP, without Sprinting.
We have a lot of other units that can hit 9/14 or better.

But it's AirMechs that need to be nerfed because their speed is unbalanced. They must be slowed, have high AMMs, and must use turn mode because their TMM is too high. Never mind that other units are as fast or faster with TMMs as good or better than AirMechs. Because AirMechs must be balanced!

I don't think people want balance. They claim they do but if they did, they wouldn't be focused on AirMechs. They'd be focusing on the TMMs.

Besides, it doesn't matter that a 50 ton WiGE can't get a +7TMM. It doesn't need to. It can mount Stealth Armor. That's up to an additional +2 to hit modifier. AirMechs cannot use Stealth Armor. They're balanced.

Mech's can use Stealth Armor, Null Signature Systems, Chameleon LPS, or Void Signature. Sure the Void Signature System works better for slower Mechs but it's additional to hit modifiers can be as high as +3. And Null Sig and Chameleon can be as high as +2 each and stack for a +4! LAMs can't use any of these things. They need their high speed and high TMMs to be balanced against other units.

Really, I'm starting to believe the old rules were more balanced. Not the original rules, although those did help with Fighter Mode vs ASF/CF. I mean the ones pre-Quick Start Rules.

Think about it.

A 100 ton LAMs has 12MP.  It can move 10 hexes if it took off that turn. That was scary vs 3025 units. But a lot of 3025 units can hit 10+MP for a +4TMM. And we haven't had just "standard" tech since 1989. By the time we get to MaxTech we can build a 100 ton Mech that can hit 12MP. The same MP as the LAM, with a lower AMM, same TMM and depending on the other tech an additional +4 to hit modifier. And for that speed the LAM pays 18 tons. The 100 ton Mech? It can use tech the LAM cannot and free up tonnage to be faster than the LAM in AirMech mode. Want to go faster? For the 100 Mech, swap MASC for TSM and free up tonnage. For the LAM, switch to prototype improved jump jets and pay another 2-4 tons. Sure there are some weight saving items the LAM can use but is the cost worth it? Increased piloting modifiers, double damage for the structure, and JJ that explode as 10 point ammo explosion. Sure and engine hit is bad but 1 hit could destroy the LAM. In any case, the 100 ton Mech still ends up as fast as the LAM. 

The only advantage the 100 ton LAM has over the 100 ton Mech is that it can fly. Go over a forest or other terrain that would slow the Mech down and the 100 ton LAM, with firepower of an 80 ton Mech can have a chance to fly get away or get behind the more powerful mech as it only pays a +1MP for changes in elevation. The 100 ton LAM though can use tech to increase it's to hit modifiers.  The result, is a terrain advantage vs tech advantage. And that is only while in AirMech mode. On the ground, the advantage is solidly in the Mech's favor.

Now, even though both the LAM and the Mech have the same MP, the LAM's AMM is now twice that of the Mech, it costs the LAM 2MP per hex, nullifying it's terrain advantage. It also has to use turn modes making turning more risky. The odds were already against the LAM. Now they're worse.  And that doesn't take into account that the LAM has 6 fewer critical slots and it doesn't including all the penalties the Illegal Quirk gives the 100 ton LAM. That isn't balanced.

For lighter faster units, the Locust moves 8/12 has 3 tons of weaponry, and 4 tons of armor. The Stinger LAM's AirMech mode had 18MP, 3 tons of weaponry, and 5 tons of armor. In 3025, the Stinger LAM is a challenge for the Locust but not an insurmountable one. Give the Locust some upgrades and the fight is more even. The Stinger LAM's advantages end up terrain. Add in the more modern MP costs, higher AMMs, and turn modes, and even that advantage is reduced. Even the added MP for flanking doesn't help with all the penalties AirMechs have under the current rules.

It gets worse when we look at slow LAMs like the UrbanMech LAM.  Under the old rules it's AirMech Mode could move 9 hexes. Now, it can move 14. But take offs cost 5MP. It used to be 2MP. Landing is free now. It used to be 2MP but I don't think that's enough compensation. Not when it costs 2MP per hex at 2+elevations. Under the old rules a UrbanMech LAM would pay 2MP to take off from a forest, dead end city block or whatever, climb 1 elevation and still be able to fly the 6 hex minimum movement. Now,  even with a lower 5 hex minimum, the Urbie LAM would need 16 MP to fly. Sure it can hover but that costs 5MP. Add in the MP costs for taking off and gaining elevation and it's spent 11MP. That means it can move forward 1 hex or change 1 facing. It can do that walking and stay out of the line of site! If it needs to move faster, it'd be better for Urbie LAM to convert to Mech mode and jump 3 hexes. It'd have a lower AMM and a higher TMM. Even a LAM with 4 jump jets still couldn't take off and fly away that turn. That isn't even unbalanced. That's broken! And people want to lower the AirMech's MP even more!  And not change any of the other rules while doing so. That isn't balance either. That's pure punishment. Slow LAMs can barely function now. A slower MP would cripple them. They may as well be BiModal LAMs with an improved conversion system.

And before anyone complains about always flying higher, flying higher depends on the terrain. Sometimes you just have to fly higher. Sometimes you don't. The AirMech could fly over water or ice, etc. The fact remains the advantages the LAM had, speed and maneuverability over terrain that would slow other units has been nullified under the current rules. That isn't balanced. Not when other units can make use of tech to counter those same issues. Maybe it wouldn't be unbalanced if LAMs didn't have so many tech restrictions but the tech restrictions were put in place to balance LAMs and other units. Nerfing LAMs movement advantage unbalances the scales.

Really the old rules were better balanced. There are some things I like about the new rules but overall, the old rules were more balanced. They just need better clarification. I think removing "jumping" and giving AirMechs the choice of walk/run, hover, or fly was a good choice. I'd keep that but Flanking just isn't worth all the penalties that have been imposed. I'd rather just have the 3xJJ and the old movement costs, flat +3 AMM when flying, and lack of turn modes than all the costs now.

I'd also change some of the tech restrictions, not all but if TSM can be put in one location why not Clan ES or FF? And cargo may be carried internally and externally.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

Company level games would actually help the LAM side, as the AirMech mode would allow the LAMs to quickly position themselves at weak points in the enemy formation, then spend a short time in 'Mech mode (with low AMM) to exploit the weak points. In this the combination of the modes working together allows for opportunities caused by enemy mistakes to be exploited. This should be a far better experience for both players.

But I just don't get the point on change to the mech mode. Just... why? You need to keep move all the times, after all, and although +3/4 AMM is punishing but jumping on mech mode cause a +3 too.

[Maingunnery]

But I just don't get the point on change to the mech mode. Just... why? You need to keep move all the times, after all, and although +3/4 AMM is punishing but jumping on mech mode cause a +3 too.

To get more weapons to hit, in order to exploit a weakspot it does require actually applying significant amount of damage.

[PuppyLikesLaserPointers]

To get more weapons to hit, in order to exploit a weakspot it does require actually applying significant amount of damage.

No, I mean, it's not about getting less AMM to get the better chance to hit. For it is obvious that you will get the less AMM if you didn't move much. The problem is, will you actually have a chance to do? Yes, I do understand that have to spend some portion of resource not to allows me to do that, is a thing, even if my one is got checked by the opponent's move in result. But in order to this, my LAM need to be totally out of the firing line of the opponent, as well as they leaves the LAM in the LAM's firing line, and also gives it enough time to change to the battlemech mode and shoot after then change to airmech mode.

Only if the numbers of hex it actually moved isn't a factor on the accuracy of the attack targeting a unit, it would be viable. But it is not.

[RifleMech]

But I just don't get the point on change to the mech mode. Just... why? You need to keep move all the times, after all, and although +3/4 AMM is punishing but jumping on mech mode cause a +3 too.

Flak ammo is less effective against Mech mode.
The AA Quirk isn't effective against units on the ground.
AirMech's lifting capacity and physical combat damage are half that of Mech mode. (This rule I like and goes long with the reduced W/R.)
Mech Mode's W/R is faster than AirMech Mode.
MASC and TSM are more effective in Mech Mode.
Damage may make flying difficult or impossible.
Weather may make flying difficult or impossible.
Mech Mode can fire from partial cover. I'm not sure if AirMechs can dig in or not.
Side slipping can make traveling through some terrain more difficult. Turn modes even more so.

I'm sure there's more reasons but those are what I can come up with at the moment. Which mode works best largely depends on terrain, mission, and opponent. However, since speed is life, Mech mode is less useful, against fast opponents. And since advanced tech can not only make very fast light opponents but fast heavy opponents, there's less reason to use Mech Mode. Mech Mode can't compete against them any more than standard tech lights can. To compete, LAMs often need to stay in AirMech Mode. Only now the rules are so stacked against AirMechs that they can't compete.

[Charistoph]

I did not say that.
A proper transformable unit would have equally valuable modes, seeing the BM mode as just for specific terrain does not cut it.

The ASF mode is the only useful mode for void combat.

AirMech mode requires a thick enough atmosphere in order to be used.

Battlemech mode covers situations where neither works well, such as jungle, underwater, or in enclosed spaces.

It just happens that most people don't play in environments/maps/scenarios which limit the AirMech's advantages.

Considering how the BattleMech mode is talked about I really do not believe that they attacking player would take a LAM if they knew that the objective was in such terrain.

One does not always get the choice.  If you're in a campaign and are the LAM pilot, then you have to consider what mode one needs in order to accomplish an objective.  Also a lot of scenarios have fixed units to play.

Would it also not be poor scenario design to not require LAMs to use their transformation capabilities?

I was also thinking of reducing lift-off cost to one MP.

That MIGHT work if there was still a 5MP Hover or 5 hex Movement requirement still at play.

Company level games would actually help the LAM side, as the AirMech mode would allow the LAMs to quickly position themselves at weak points in the enemy formation, then spend a short time in 'Mech mode (with low AMM) to exploit the weak points. In this the combination of the modes working together allows for opportunities caused by enemy mistakes to be exploited. This should be a far better experience for both players.

Or put them in position to be shot at sooner if the pilot is too aggressive.  I've done that with a Mercury II from time to time, and that's only a 7/11/7 profile.

I can make a 50 ton WiGE with the same amount of armor, more firepower, that's capable of hitting 23MP as a Phoenix Hawk LAM.
I can make a 25 ton VTOL that has as much armor, more firepower and can hit 30MP as a Stinger LAM.

Interesting, care to provide some examples where they could do so every single turn?  Or did you rely on Superchargers and Boosters which can't be used every Turn?

[Maingunnery]

The ASF mode is the only useful mode for void combat.

AirMech mode requires a thick enough atmosphere in order to be used.

Battlemech mode covers situations where neither works well, such as jungle, underwater, or in enclosed spaces.

It just happens that most people don't play in environments/maps/scenarios which limit the AirMech's advantages.

The apparent phenomenon is that the niche for the BM mode is so narrow is that it encourages completely avoiding the BM mode or even converting at all.

One does not always get the choice.  If you're in a campaign and are the LAM pilot, then you have to consider what mode one needs in order to accomplish an objective.  Also a lot of scenarios have fixed units to play.

Would it also not be poor scenario design to not require LAMs to use their transformation capabilities?

Tailoring the scenarios would be a bit of an patch solution, and it would be nice of there was a scenario book specifically designed for LAMs, but it would be better if LAMs could be made more compatible with the standard pick-up games.

Or put them in position to be shot at sooner if the pilot is too aggressive.  I've done that with a Mercury II from time to time, and that's only a 7/11/7 profile.

Bad positioning can always happen with any unit/mode or player. But would it help if the LAM could fight well during the conversion turn?

[DevianID]

I can make a 50 ton WiGE with the same amount of armor, more firepower, that's capable of hitting 23MP as a Phoenix Hawk LAM.
I can make a 25 ton VTOL that has as much armor, more firepower and can hit 30MP as a Stinger LAM.

A big part of why I dont think the LAM rules are balanced is because I CANT make a 50 ton wige even close to a 23mp Cruise.  A 10/15 50 ton wige already needs a 360xxl to work, and that is very short of the 23 cruise of the phawk.  A 25 ton WIGE can move 15/23 with an xxl, but as the most efficient engine/weight combo that leaves 9.5 tons for armor+weapons, which is far short of the 19 tons of the phawk LAM.  The VTOL come out better, I can make a 15/23/30 with jet booster vtol with 11.5 tons of space for armor and weapons, which is better then the 9 tons of a stinger LAM.  So it should come as no shock that I think Vtols, with their special jet booster, are also something not balanced at all in the rules.  The Vtol gets a 90% damage reduction on the rotor, but doesnt pay BV for that.  All other armors that provide damage reduction cost more BV, so the Vtol already isnt a balanced unit, and jet boosters with their 'always on' ability produce the only safe supercharger/masc effect in the game, which is BS. 
BUT, I digress.  Because while a custom vtol with xxl engine+booster can rival a basic 3025 stinger LAM, you can simply give LAMs advanced equipment too with IJJs and such, and it then retakes its #1 spot as the fastest, hardest hitting/most armored combination.

I suppose my final thoughts on the matter are that LAMs still haven't been addressed for what makes them problematic.  I see lots of strawman arguments like 'sprinting is faster' as if sprinting, with its -1 to total TMM and no shooting, was at all a valid/useful thing.  We dont care about the actual speed number in in hexes in gameplay (if just hexes moved was all that matters, a cheetah aerospace fighter cruises at hundreds of hexes/turn), we care about the game effect numbers.  And the game effect number is a +7 or +6 TMM, on a 3025 unit with top tier armor and weapons even in the ilclan era for a +7/6 TMM.  I cant get anything that moves with a +6 TMM that also packs as much armor and firepower as a phawk LAM.  Furthermore, in an average game, my opponent will not likely have the specialized tools to hit a +6TMM unit, meaning a standard unit that stands still is looking at 10s, at best, to connect.  Its just not fun shooting and missing every turn, and its definitely not balanced if the only solution to bring down a single LAM is to over specialize in antiair, which is marginally effective as unlike a VTOL with a delicate rotor, a LAM has no such hit location weakness to LBX pellets.  Especially in many of the ERAs that LAMs are prevalent, things like targeting computers, mass LBX, and pulse lasers dont even exist.

[RifleMech]

The ASF mode is the only useful mode for void combat.

AirMech mode requires a thick enough atmosphere in order to be used.

Battlemech mode covers situations where neither works well, such as jungle, underwater, or in enclosed spaces.

It just happens that most people don't play in environments/maps/scenarios which limit the AirMech's advantages.

There is fluff about LAMs using all three modes to confuse and destroy a Caspar Drone in space. We just don't have rules for how AirMechs move in space. Do they move as a fighter or as a mech?

Interesting, care to provide some examples where they could do so every single turn?  Or did you rely on Superchargers and Boosters which can't be used every Turn?

I didn't say every turn. Just that it can go that fast. I also said that it didn't need to because it mounts Stealth Armor. Something LAMs cannot do. So while the PixieLAM might have a TMM +1 higher the WiGE can have an additional to-hit modifier as high as +2.

And pre-QS and IO rules, that WiGE is faster than the PixieLAM's AirMech mode. And while it is moving faster, it also has a higher TMM.

Under either rules, the WiGE is as hard or harder to hit than the LAM. What balances things out is the LAM can go places the WiGE can't.

A big part of why I dont think the LAM rules are balanced is because I CANT make a 50 ton wige even close to a 23mp Cruise.  A 10/15 50 ton wige already needs a 360xxl to work, and that is very short of the 23 cruise of the phawk.  A 25 ton WIGE can move 15/23 with an xxl, but as the most efficient engine/weight combo that leaves 9.5 tons for armor+weapons, which is far short of the 19 tons of the phawk LAM.  The VTOL come out better, I can make a 15/23/30 with jet booster vtol with 11.5 tons of space for armor and weapons, which is better then the 9 tons of a stinger LAM.  So it should come as no shock that I think Vtols, with their special jet booster, are also something not balanced at all in the rules.  The Vtol gets a 90% damage reduction on the rotor, but doesnt pay BV for that.  All other armors that provide damage reduction cost more BV, so the Vtol already isnt a balanced unit, and jet boosters with their 'always on' ability produce the only safe supercharger/masc effect in the game, which is BS. 
BUT, I digress.  Because while a custom vtol with xxl engine+booster can rival a basic 3025 stinger LAM, you can simply give LAMs advanced equipment too with IJJs and such, and it then retakes its #1 spot as the fastest, hardest hitting/most armored combination.

Why do you need to have a 50 WiGE cruise at 23MP? Why must it have the same TMM as the AirMech when it can mount armor that gives it additional to hit modifiers the AirMech can't?

No, you can't just give the LAM IJJs. IJJ weight twice as much as JJ and then you have to add more to increase the speed. For a Stinger LAM that's replacing the 3 tons of JJ with at least 7 tons of IJJ. That's 4 tons that have to come from somewhere. Even if IJJ-Ps are used, it still has to free up .5 tons to go faster. Other units can use other engine types to free up tonnage which the LAM cannot do. And depending on the engine, any added speed boosters can be essentially weight free because the new engine frees up so much tonnage.

I can't speak about the BV and Rotors but there is a big skill penalty for using the Jet Booster.

I suppose my final thoughts on the matter are that LAMs still haven't been addressed for what makes them problematic.  I see lots of strawman arguments like 'sprinting is faster' as if sprinting, with its -1 to total TMM and no shooting, was at all a valid/useful thing.  We dont care about the actual speed number in in hexes in gameplay (if just hexes moved was all that matters, a cheetah aerospace fighter cruises at hundreds of hexes/turn), we care about the game effect numbers.  And the game effect number is a +7 or +6 TMM, on a 3025 unit with top tier armor and weapons even in the ilclan era for a +7/6 TMM.  I cant get anything that moves with a +6 TMM that also packs as much armor and firepower as a phawk LAM.  Furthermore, in an average game, my opponent will not likely have the specialized tools to hit a +6TMM unit, meaning a standard unit that stands still is looking at 10s, at best, to connect.  Its just not fun shooting and missing every turn, and its definitely not balanced if the only solution to bring down a single LAM is to over specialize in antiair, which is marginally effective as unlike a VTOL with a delicate rotor, a LAM has no such hit location weakness to LBX pellets.  Especially in many of the ERAs that LAMs are prevalent, things like targeting computers, mass LBX, and pulse lasers dont even exist.

So is the problem the TMMs or that LAMs are so fast in 3025 games? I agree it isn't fun missing targets every turn. But LAMs speed and maneuverability are what made them so valuable that IS Houses would spend a year rebuilding damaged LAMs when they were scrapping other Mechs for parts. Now, we have lots of units that can hit +6/+7TMM with additional to hit modifiers. They're even harder to hit than AirMechs. But I don't hear calls for their speed to be nerfed.  Just the AirMech's.


As for as not bringing specialized tools to hit those fast targets, players need to agree to use LAMs as they're advanced units. Something with an XL Engine is not.  At least not any more. That gives players a chance to prepare for them. And even 1 unit with flak ammo and the AA Quirk with their combined -4 to hit is a big counter to an AirMech's TMMs. And Flak can be used by non AA Units. There also other quirks that can improve the to hit numbers of other units without having to specialize in AA units.

It isn't just Sprinting or Overdrive that helps other units. There's also Evasion. LAMs can't use any of those things. And sometimes it's better to try to avoid being hit than to hit.

No, LAMs don't have a rotor's weakness but that doesn't mean they're super strong either. They do have more locations that need armoring. That's less armor per location. An AC/5 will strip all the armor off a Pixie LAM's rear CT and will do that and go internal on the rear R/L Torso while flying in AirMech mode.

And all of that is with the newer rules. Older rules didn't give AirMechs Flanking MP. They were still faster than many 3025 units but slower than fast advanced tech units. Under the older rules the Stinger LAM tops out at 18MP. That Fireball can move 24MP with just the engine. The only advantage the AirMech has is being able to fly over terrain that would slow the Mech and that has been totally nerfed under the new rules. I don't see that as balanced.

I do like Cruise/Flank as it made a clear distinction between an AirMech flying and an AirMech jumping. But I don't think all the penalties that the newer rules give are worth the 1.5xC increase in speed. If I were to keep C/F, I'd make the 3xJJ the Flank MP, divide by 1.5 to get the Cruise MP, keep all the old movement costs, and allow AirMechs to use Overdrive and Evade. That would allow AirMech's their maneuverability with an occasional speed boost when needed.

[Charistoph]

The apparent phenomenon is that the niche for the BM mode is so narrow is that it encourages completely avoiding the BM mode or even converting at all.

It's only as narrow as one chooses to make it, really.  As a side note, reducing the Cruise Speed of the AirMech would encourage smarter play and more reason to use the Battlemech mode.

We just don't have rules for how AirMechs move in space. Do they move as a fighter or as a mech?

There is no exception for WiGE movement in space for the AirMech mode, so your answer is right there: They don't.

I didn't say every turn. Just that it can go that fast. I also said that it didn't need to because it mounts Stealth Armor. Something LAMs cannot do. So while the PixieLAM might have a TMM +1 higher the WiGE can have an additional to-hit modifier as high as +2.

So, you miss the implications given by the stats I provided, and the whole point of using an AirMech (i.e. they CAN consistently hit those speeds).  That's kind of strawmanning the argument.

Stealth Armor doesn't work at Short Range, which most of these speedy units need to be in because they can't carry much weaponry with long range, aside from a light rack of missiles.

And pre-QS and IO rules, that WiGE is faster than the PixieLAM's AirMech mode. And while it is moving faster, it also has a higher TMM.

Not much point in bringing up those old rules, as we're addressing current ones.  A lot of those old rules were based on a limited TMM of +5, recall.

[Hammer]

Locked pending Moderator Review.