Author Topic: How Elitist is a Clan Council?  (Read 2887 times)

Vehrec

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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #30 on: 30 August 2024, 20:41:40 »
The same could be said about Sheriff Reed from the Helgren County. Cleared of all "crimes", showed great skill against rhe Vipers and being a high ranking administrator in the Blood Spirits (Star Colonel Tiberius) but his name was never added to the rolls. Almost like he never forgave those that "abandoned" him. I would expect the Ilkhan era a rise of many new bloodhouses just by virtue of war attrition. Or if the Houses become so ruthless to destroy the gene labs and sample storages the Clans have in their occupation zones.
Or the Clans could keep slowly dwindling the number of bloodhouses, warriors in those houses and such by Reeving bloodlines faster than they make new warrior lineages.  That would be in keeping with their historical nonsense.
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The Wobbly Guy

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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #31 on: 30 August 2024, 21:53:17 »
Or the Clans could keep slowly dwindling the number of bloodhouses, warriors in those houses and such by Reaving bloodlines faster than they make new warrior lineages.  That would be in keeping with their historical nonsense.

With the dysgenic effects of inbreeding. With an already limited gene pool of 1400 individuals (800 warriors + 600 civvies).

They aren't Targaryens, so I'm sure the scientists will scream and howl to no avail.

Metallgewitter

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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #32 on: 31 August 2024, 04:21:49 »
With the dysgenic effects of inbreeding. With an already limited gene pool of 1400 individuals (800 warriors + 600 civvies).

They aren't Targaryens, so I'm sure the scientists will scream and howl to no avail.

Probably diverting too much but in the Interstellar players 2 book there are articles in the Society section that document the progression of illegal sibkos which combined genes from several Clans. And those developed serious defects / illnesses. So it seems that if you introduce too much "foreign" genes you spoil the entire roost. 
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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #33 on: 31 August 2024, 04:33:34 »
With the dysgenic effects of inbreeding. With an already limited gene pool of 1400 individuals (800 warriors + 600 civvies).


I would have thought with the advanced technology of the Eugenics Programme and the Scientist Caste, any negative effects could easily be edited out

Alan Grant

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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #34 on: 31 August 2024, 05:02:37 »
There is some evidence that the Clans do engage in genetic engineering when needed to eliminate problems like inbreeding. Kindraa Payne (Fire Mandrill) was having this problem because their own gene pool to work with was so small and FM: CC said the scientists were working on some new genetic recombination techniques to reverse the effects.

But there is also a sidebar in Warriors of Kerensky that talks about how the scientists prefer to let things develop as naturally as possible. When I say develop I largely am talking about the successful warriors earning bloodnames and having their genetic legacies added to the breeding program. The idea was to funnel things down by only using the successful to create the next generation. They wanted that process to be semi-natural. They try not to interfere with DNA and engage in genetic engineering more than they need to. Those "need" moments include things like eliminating disease as well as developing the trueborn phenotypes.

Clan Diamond Shark's section in FM: WC notes that the Clan was a bit more willing to experiment with certain genetic lines. Knowing that a lot of those experiments would fail but that some would yield great outcomes. They credited solving a lot of the problems with high failure rates in elemental sibkos to tendency of theirs to experiment and prided themselves on their own successful elemental lines.

Basically the Clan approach to genetic engineering is often surprisingly conservative. They also don't seem to be particularly great at actually predicting what a change will manifest in a human being until they see the end result in the flesh. So their ability to somehow model what the end-result of a genetic engineering action will be, without birthing a human, seems to be rather limited.

So when we get experimental sibkos, or in particular the society doing weird stuff. You hear a lot more about defects, defective individuals walking around as part of their little army or being found in a society lab. That's someone throwing off the conservative approach and attempting some hardcore genetic engineering. But it's basically scientific experimentation with human beings. Stripped of a lot the typical ethics.

Keep in mind. Clan Trueborns like to pride themselves on being the epitome of humanity. The best that humans can be, essentially, through the eugenics program. A little failure is considered ok. A lot of extreme experimentation that leads to a lot of obvious failure, such as whole sibkos of deformed individuals, kinda flies in the face of the idea that these Clan Trueborns are the best. The Clan Trueborns also want to believe it is their abilities (I earned honor and glory, I earned a bloodname) that is propelling the eugenics program forward. Essentially, they see it as the perpetuation of evolution. With the warriors as the real driving force here.

The warrior caste wants to feel like the epitome of human evolution. Not lab rats that got lucky. This was part of their indoctrination and education on their place in society. For many of them it's almost as close to their hearts as any religion. There is some human psychology at play here, and preserving that has value to the Trueborns.

In the book Wars of Reaving, there's a passage, written by a scientist, who complains that the scientists haven't been allowed to be real scientists for a while now. That the warriors want them the scientists to move things in nice neat orderly linear steps with fairly predictable results and only work on the areas that the warriors approve of.

In reality, science often moves in exponential growth but also with a lot of not-so-great results through experimentation. But even the perceived failures have value in adding to the layers of scientific knowledge. So if you are going purely by the scientific method you embrace the failures too as you experiment. The trueborns have never been very comfortable with that. A little bit of it is ok. A lot of it threatens to shred the ideas that the warriors themselves are at the helm of the eugenics program through honor/glory/bloodname.
« Last Edit: 31 August 2024, 05:54:00 by Alan Grant »

Arkansas Warrior

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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #35 on: 31 August 2024, 09:15:23 »
If you’re willing to do the genetic engineering required to produce the Elemental, fighter pilot, protomech pilot, and tankwarrior phenotypes, the engineering needed to ensure trueborns don’t inherit hemophilia, Tay-Sachs, or whatever is child’s play.  Letting it through would be like writing a book and forgetting to run spellcheck.
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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #36 on: 31 August 2024, 09:53:53 »
I'm pretty sure I saw a line in some old sourcebook about how a lot of recessive genetic conditions like sickle cell trait and hemophilia had been eliminated from the trueborn genotypes.
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Alan Grant

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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #37 on: 31 August 2024, 11:34:52 »
We know trueborns dying of natural causes is considered rare and shocking. In the novel that depicted Diana Pryde's Trial of Bloodright, the original Bloodname House Leader drops dead of a cardiac arrest. Ravill Pryde ends up stepping up to fill those shoes.

The sudden "natural cause" death shocks the Trueborns assembled for the Trial. It's regarded as a rare and strange thing.

Other books have told us that the Clans have engaged in genetic engineering to remove the causes of various diseases and health problems. In this area, they seem to have no qualms about it.

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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #38 on: 06 September 2024, 19:06:10 »
Issues that may mitigate against the elitism and desirability of serving on Clan councils:

— It’s arguably unclear how much decision making authority actually rests with a Clan council versus its Khans/Loremaster.  It’s always the Khans or their really elite group of friends running things in the fiction.  (CSPAN-style democracy is boring, but authoritarian dictatorships in action are exciting.)  And the sourcebooks can only spend so much word count explaining who does what.  It may be that some/all Clan councils are little more than rubber stamps for their Khans, and thus membership isn’t all it’s cracked up to be if exercising political power is what you desire.

Warriors of Kerensky noted that the Clans that moved to the Inner Sphere did have their Clan Councils become rubber stampy, but in the Homeworlds where everyone is much closer together, Clan councils wield a lot of power.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #39 on: 09 September 2024, 03:26:45 »
We know trueborns dying of natural causes is considered rare and shocking. In the novel that depicted Diana Pryde's Trial of Bloodright, the original Bloodname House Leader drops dead of a cardiac arrest. Ravill Pryde ends up stepping up to fill those shoes.

The sudden "natural cause" death shocks the Trueborns assembled for the Trial. It's regarded as a rare and strange thing.

Other books have told us that the Clans have engaged in genetic engineering to remove the causes of various diseases and health problems. In this area, they seem to have no qualms about it.

Wars of Reaving also stated that the trueborns have a more robust immune system then freeborns. Though put warriors into too much stress that system breaks. There was a mention that the Hellion invasion into the Falcon OZ faltered because Montoose put too much stress on her touman so that sicknesses which were rare among trueborn warriors became rampant. Though you could say they just continued where the Terran Hegemony stopped (who remembers the homo stellaris or what James Mckenna espoused?)
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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #40 on: 09 September 2024, 04:45:03 »
I'm pretty sure I saw a line in some old sourcebook about how a lot of recessive genetic conditions like sickle cell trait and hemophilia had been eliminated from the trueborn genotypes.


A Rending of Falcons specifically states this to be the case, too, making note of the Clans having rid themselves of things like congenital tooth decay.
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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #41 on: 09 September 2024, 04:48:39 »
Warriors of Kerensky noted that the Clans that moved to the Inner Sphere did have their Clan Councils become rubber stampy, but in the Homeworlds where everyone is much closer together, Clan councils wield a lot of power.

I feel as if, like so much else in WoK over the years, this is pretty outdated. We've seen firsthand just how powerful and influential the Bloodnamed of the Clan Councils can be in the Inner Sphere, most recently in Clan Hell's Horses in their novel.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #42 on: 16 September 2024, 18:15:03 »
Now those Clans are all in one place again, though.  It seems like the point WoK was making is that having to travel back and forth along the Exodus Road makes having regular Clan Councils and what not much more difficult, so those clans that were split between the Homeworlds and OZs naturally tended to let the Khans arrogate more power to themselves for ease of decision-making.
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Metallgewitter

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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #43 on: 17 September 2024, 06:03:44 »
Now those Clans are all in one place again, though.  It seems like the point WoK was making is that having to travel back and forth along the Exodus Road makes having regular Clan Councils and what not much more difficult, so those clans that were split between the Homeworlds and OZs naturally tended to let the Khans arrogate more power to themselves for ease of decision-making.

I think I read in the FM 3067 that Marthe Pryde gave a lot of power to one of her Galaxy commanders making him effectively "a third Khan".
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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #44 on: 18 September 2024, 05:39:04 »
Now those Clans are all in one place again, though.  It seems like the point WoK was making is that having to travel back and forth along the Exodus Road makes having regular Clan Councils and what not much more difficult, so those clans that were split between the Homeworlds and OZs naturally tended to let the Khans arrogate more power to themselves for ease of decision-making.

Yes, that was my point, that WoK's stance on the subject is outdated now since the Spheroid Clans aren't split between the OZs and the Homeworlds anymore.
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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #45 on: 18 September 2024, 09:06:00 »
The Clans who absorbed another Clan got a good advantage over their fellows because they could use the genetics of the absorbed as they wanted to do.
So they have an exponentially greater choice for combining genetic material.

This seemed to be a great case for the Wolves who had absorbed the Widowmakers early in the history of the Clans. IMHO one reason for their steady success.
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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #46 on: 18 September 2024, 11:26:06 »
That's assuming that the genetics actually matter that much.  Which is highly disputable.
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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #47 on: 18 September 2024, 11:31:07 »
That's assuming that the genetics actually matter that much.  Which is highly disputable.

I've always felt that, beyond obvious things like the Elemental, the genetics don't actually matter that much at all and the Clans, for all of their vaunted scientific knowledge in that area, are just a bunch of superstitious idiots when it comes to genetics. Case in point: the Wars of Reaving. Brett Andrews instigated a genocidal feeding frenzy in the Clans over nothing.
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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #48 on: 18 September 2024, 11:52:23 »
Exactly.  All the actual evidence indicates that the Clans' training programs are what really creates superior warriors and the breeding program is just a placebo.
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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #49 on: 18 September 2024, 12:01:20 »
Exactly.  All the actual evidence indicates that the Clans' training programs are what really creates superior warriors and the breeding program is just a placebo.

The breeding program gives Clanners an advantage over IS soldiers. Among themselves probably less as they all follow similar breeding protocols.

Also absorbing a Clan usually gives the winner more resources but at the same time it might also open them up to opportunistic attacks on their new or even old holdings (if other Clan's merchants deem it worth the cost). The winning Clan needs to tread carefully less the absorption becomes an albatross
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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #50 on: 18 September 2024, 13:03:05 »
The breeding program gives Clanners an advantage over IS soldiers.

Does it really, though?  Or does the fact that they start training their warriors at age five contribute more?
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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #51 on: 18 September 2024, 13:21:02 »
Does it really, though?  Or does the fact that they start training their warriors at age five contribute more?

I would say both. Or would you say elementals don't have a physical advantage against normal grunts? Ok  that would be the most extreme example. But on the other hand Clan aerojocks are weaker then their Is counterparts despite breeding AND training
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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #52 on: 18 September 2024, 19:46:03 »
Elementals have an advantage when it comes to unaugmented combat, but their superiority in actual armor is significantly less.

Also, I think it perfectly sums up the Clans' understanding of genetics that they believe a genetic sample taken after a warrior has done something spectacular is better than a genetic sample taken from the same warrior before they did so.
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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #53 on: 19 September 2024, 05:57:14 »

Also, I think it perfectly sums up the Clans' understanding of genetics that they believe a genetic sample taken after a warrior has done something spectacular is better than a genetic sample taken from the same warrior before they did so.

Very valid point that I also wanted to call attention to.

In general I wanted to say, pretty much from Day 1 of the Clans being introduced to the universe. There has always been this counter-force of the authors writing stories trying to say the Spheroids and particularly the freeborn warriors of the Clans can be just as good, but they aren't treated as equals, they aren't trained as well or equipped as well as the trueborns and certainly aren't given the same rights and privileges as the Bloodnamed warriors, the issue is as much cultural and perception as anything. Particularly in the novels. We've always had this undercurrent running through the Clans that points to specific characters like Phelan, Horse, Diana Pryde to say "hey look, Freeborns are pretty good."

Then you had pretty structured straight-up contests like the Great Refusal. The fact that the Spheroids were anywhere close to parity told a story of the myth of the superior Trueborns. According to the Clans' own dogma about Trueborn superiority there is no way the Spheroids should have stood a chance. This reality that they weren't clearly superior was so upsetting to the Clans that it played a role in setting off some of the stuff in the Wars of Reaving era.

When the Clans were introduced to the universe, we were told that the trueborns were superior. Then the authors set about writing many stories that said "what these people believe about themselves is wrong, keep reading to follow along with this journey of self-discovery."

The theme has been there this entire time, reoccurring now for many years of Battletech history storytelling.
« Last Edit: 19 September 2024, 05:59:05 by Alan Grant »

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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #54 on: 19 September 2024, 11:11:12 »
That's assuming that the genetics actually matter that much.  Which is highly disputable.
This basically sums up the Clans in a nutshell.
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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #55 on: 19 September 2024, 11:43:13 »
Then you had pretty structured straight-up contests like the Great Refusal. The fact that the Spheroids were anywhere close to parity told a story of the myth of the superior Trueborns. According to the Clans' own dogma about Trueborn superiority there is no way the Spheroids should have stood a chance. This reality that they weren't clearly superior was so upsetting to the Clans that it played a role in setting off some of the stuff in the Wars of Reaving era.

The funny thing is this is not limited to their supposed better genes. The same goes to the technological differences. Marthe Pryde defended using better technologies against the IS as "New tools don't devalue our traditions" Meanwhile she waged a trial of refusal against the Diamond sharks when they began selling Clan weapons (secondline Mechs) to IS buyers and the Sharks simply stated "the warrior makes the difference not the machine" and then defeated the Falcons using only secondline machines.

If the Is had the same tech at the start of the invasion the Clans would probably have been sent packing after a few battles due to the different tactical approaches. Whilew I think the breeding program gives the Clans advantages (better reflexes, stronger immune systems, better resistance to G-forces etc) the main advantage is imho the technology.
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Re: How Elitist is a Clan Council?
« Reply #56 on: 19 September 2024, 14:33:32 »
Any advantage that the Clans may have from a genetic standpoint, with the sole exception of Elementals in very specific circumstances, are so negligible as to be irrelevant. The fiction has borne this out time and time and time again.
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