Equipping the RAF Redoubts

[Colt Ward]

RAF formations assigned to the Redoubts were typically militia with Knights or RAF filling senior command positions.  Usually they had some better quality regulars assigned to support the troops.

But what equipment coming out of the factories would you assign to Redoubts vs the new field forces like the Fides & traditional 3tiers of regiments?

Per ilClan the Redoubts had more armor than mechs, much of it heavy & assault while mech forces were largely lighter than the armor.

Stone gave you the task overseeing equipment assignment, what are your criteria?  What do you do?

[Mendrugo]

Since you've got huge defensive walls to rely on, you want to hit your foe while they're outside those fortifications.  Thus, go extra heavy on artillery and anti-air.  Oodles of LRM-boats.  If the Clans mass for a breaching attempt, you want to saturate their staging area with area effect weaponry.  As they prowl around looking for weak spots, you want them to be under constant long-range harassing fire.

To back that up, you want some fast mediums with good close-in guns as a reaction force to respond to successful breaching attacks.  Either push the penetration back out and find a way to shore up the redoubt there, or buy the local defenders (LRM carriers, Mobile Long Toms, etc.) time to pull back to the next layer of the redoubt.

[Church14]

Since you've got huge defensive walls to rely on, you want to hit your foe while they're outside those fortifications.  Thus, go extra heavy on artillery and anti-air.  Oodles of LRM-boats.  If the Clans mass for a breaching attempt, you want to saturate their staging area with area effect weaponry.  As they prowl around looking for weak spots, you want them to be under constant long-range harassing fire.

To back that up, you want some fast mediums with good close-in guns as a reaction force to respond to successful breaching attacks.  Either push the penetration back out and find a way to shore up the redoubt there, or buy the local defenders (LRM carriers, Mobile Long Toms, etc.) time to pull back to the next layer of the redoubt.

You also have huge networks of underground tunnels with concealed entrances (including holographic walls) all over the city so you can run a distressing number of quick raids. It also creates a nightmare to approach because - in theory - anyone who makes it past the furthest exits from those tunnels now run the very real risk of being flanked and surrounded. So, in that penetration scenario, it's a mix of fast responders shoring up wherever the clans pushed and that clan force suddenly being completely surrounded with little to no warning if the defenders wished. And those surrounding units can just fade into the figurative and possibly literal woodwork the moment they need to. That essentially none of that happened is, well, Hour of the Wolf failing to rise to the task.


That said, per the question, it's less what units I want for the redoubts and more which ones I don't. Basically, things like hovers and VTOLs are going to be more useful elsewhere.

Also, Superheavies would have been interesting in the cities as a defensive asset since now wolves are force to hit a fixed position, where superheavies would excel.

[Colt Ward]

To be fair, Geneva against the Falcons worked that way . . . Which is why Malvina dropped ortillery.

[Metallgewitter]

Artillery and strong Anti-Air. So Paladins and MHI Defense AA tanks. Also invest into some JES 3 and arm them with Thunder missiles to try to herd the attacking forces into killzones. For heavy staying power there would be the Behemoth tanks. Maybe also Scaphas for harassing attacks due to it's Omni tech when you can swap weapons on the fly. Of course that would only work when you have the terrain for it. Like a redoubt near to a huge water area when you can move some Scaphas outside with artiellery configuration who can then shell from where they want

[Tyler Jorgensson]

Plenty of anti-Elemental units/defenses. In static warfare they are going to sneak some Elementals in somehow. I want my close in defenses or interior defenses fitted with those type things.

Otherwise like the others said: plenty of arty, LRM boats, minefields. Anything slow and heavy that works better hidden in an alleyway than on a fast moving battlefield: Hetzers, Behemoths, Demolishers, Superheavies. Couple of SRM/ JES I’s type units for harassment/ sally forces.

I would have taken a look at the old Castle Brian’s for inspiration as well as Fortress Dieron. If available I would have also tried to get information (if I had known about it) about the Operation Klondike fortifications.

[Vehrec]

To be fair, Geneva against the Falcons worked that way . . . Which is why Malvina dropped ortillery.

Well, that's why you have the anti-orbital lasers to burn the eyes out of any warship that tries that. You can have swimming pools full of liquid nitrogen ready to cool them, so your fire rate can massively exceed that any starship laser could ever achieve.  Storing all that power might be challenging though.

[Colt Ward]

I would agree with much of the sentiments here, you reach for the traditional dug in defensive position vehicles like the LRM Carriers.  I would agree with the mechs being the QRF with some hovertanks in support- particularly LRM equipped hovertanks so you can move to where your remaining infantry platoons & squads could be spotting for IDF.  But one of the other distinctions would be placing things the RAF had plenty of before Gray Monday- the old slow JES I to be part of the QRF while JES II are dug in as very heavy LRM support for the various lines.  The Winston, at 3/5 and with lots of fire support options, goes to the Redoubts while Kinnols go to the field formations.  Captured Pixius absolutely go to maneuver formations along with Po tanks & Gauss armed Po II, while the original Po II with UAC/20 is for ambush points in the Redoubts lines or sealing nearby breakthroughs.

Despite being wheeled, I would expect a LOT of Hetzers & Hetzer clones running the range from the LRM version to the AC/20 flavors.  You can run the wheeled vehicles from prepared defensive position to prepared defensive position hull down and get more use out of them than you would trying to get over terrain as part of maneuver forces.

Either long range firing vehicles or short range but heavy damage vehicles to seal breakthroughs IMO would be what you assign to the Redoubts.

I also think the infantry gets interesting . . . every single AC/2 or AC/5 you ever mothballed for a rainy day, well brother it is going to be pouring Clanners.  Your infantry conscripts get handed all those old autocannons for field gun squads inside bunkers.  But, depending on doctrine, I would think the infantry are also the ones manning hull-down trailers- particularly getting emplaced during lulls to replace destroyed bunkers. All the trailers but the "Stronghold" bring serious firepower and offer plenty of artillery options with A4, Sniper, & Thumper systems- heck even mortars.

[Metallgewitter]

Now that you mention the old autocannons. I hope you have the speciality ammunition you saved for that one ocasion. Armorpiercing should be your best friend, maybe even the flame ammunition for the extra heat.

Too bad the Republic never build new Rattlers they should be the go to option for defense positions. Then again I am not sure if the Redoubts would have the same space as the Castle Brians the Rattlers were designed to defend

also you might bring your Trajans to the Redoubts as well. For one they carry the heavy infantry and they also offer at least a modicum of fire support for said infantry

[Church14]

If there was ever an environment for infantry to consistently giggle as mechs approached, it would be the redoubts. Pop a couple shots, disappear. Pop a few more, disappear. Unload a couple field gun rounds and vanish. TAG enemy mech and watch copperheads and homing rounds wipe out a clan omni. Call in indirect fire and watch those Falcon/Wolf Scouts take a metal shower from 4 JES carriers hidden a few blocks over.

There's never going to be a more reliable environment for relatively low risk leg attacks by infantry, or swarming/leg attacks by BA. A normal city is already good, but a city filled with hidden tunnels and hidey holes and a massive support network is another.

[Stormlion1]

One thing that the RAF would field would be lots of cheap and plentiful artillery like Thumpers and Long Tom's with Spotters all over. Several battery's working in concert could do a lot of damage to attacking forces and can be fired from well outside a attackers range.

Secondary would be not vehicles or mechs but SRM equipped infantry firing from defensive positions. Cheap and a throw away unit these crit seekers could do tremendous damage and harassment far outside there cost.

[glitterboy2098]

(including holographic walls) .

Given battletech holography is supposed to be of the "glowing projection" kind, i question how effectively this would work.

[Mendrugo]

Given battletech holography is supposed to be of the "glowing projection" kind, i question how effectively this would work.

The "Fall of Terra" scenario pack included an engagement on the Sandhurst training fields where the ComStar side could use stationary holoprojections of 'Mechs to confuse the attacking Blakist forces.  The holo-'Mechs would be revealed if/when they took fire or a Blakist 'Mech moved next to them, but apparently read as real both visually and to Blakist sensors. 

So, with that technological capability established, Stone's fake holographic walls (and Jiyi's fake holographic buildings) can be justified, in-universe.

[Metallgewitter]

Given battletech holography is supposed to be of the "glowing projection" kind, i question how effectively this would work.

During the Clan invasion the FedCom milita of Barcelona forgot to deactivate their training field. The Clan sensors did not notice it and the pilots thought they woulkd be fighting against real enemies

[glitterboy2098]

During the Clan invasion the FedCom milita of Barcelona forgot to deactivate their training field. The Clan sensors did not notice it and the pilots thought they woulkd be fighting against real enemies

that was just IFF modules on scrap metal targets though. Kai ran through one such course earlier in the novel.

[Church14]

Given battletech holography is supposed to be of the "glowing projection" kind, i question how effectively this would work.

A year later we have Sudeten with holograms that aren’t just photorealistic and solid appearing, but also able to fool every type of active probe.

I don’t remember anything this quality before, but it’s a thing now.

[Mendrugo]

Here's the readout on the Sandhurst sensor ghosts:

The Salisbury military range is equipped with several
devices for simulating combat. One such device can create a
"ghost" image of a BattleMech that shows up on an enemy
'Mech's sensors. Four such devices exist in this part of the
range, and the defending player should write down their locations
before the start of the scenario. The defender may place
them in any non-water hexes on any part of the playing area.
The defender also chooses the type of BattleMech that each
ghost represents.

Each ghost 'Mech is treated as an extra Com Guard
BattleMech, except that it cannot move, fire weapons, or make
use of any special equipment. A ghost 'Mech can only change
facing, drop prone, and stand up. The Word of Blake can identify
ghosts as such by hitting them with weapons fire or moving a
unit adjacent to them. (A Beagle active probe can identify a
ghost within its detection range.) The ghost unit is immediately
"destroyed" when identified. (Destroying ghost 'Mechs does not
add to the Word of Blake's victory point total.)

[Vehrec]

I think that, actually, this brings up very interesting possibilities for decoy units, as shown in Perun's latest video.  Also, the forum software needs to be updated to handle youtube enbeds I think :P  What's key here is multi-spectral deception-you need something that looks realistic for the kinds of sensors that will be turned on it and with Battlemechs, that can be much much more than just holograms and manikins standing in a trench.  Sadly, that's probably best kept a topic for another thread.

https://youtu.be/YPqYvn5NOEs

[glitterboy2098]

Here's the readout on the Sandhurst sensor ghosts:

The Salisbury military range is equipped with several
devices for simulating combat. One such device can create a
"ghost" image of a BattleMech that shows up on an enemy
'Mech's sensors. Four such devices exist in this part of the
range, and the defending player should write down their locations
before the start of the scenario. The defender may place
them in any non-water hexes on any part of the playing area.
The defender also chooses the type of BattleMech that each
ghost represents.

Each ghost 'Mech is treated as an extra Com Guard
BattleMech, except that it cannot move, fire weapons, or make
use of any special equipment. A ghost 'Mech can only change
facing, drop prone, and stand up. The Word of Blake can identify
ghosts as such by hitting them with weapons fire or moving a
unit adjacent to them. (A Beagle active probe can identify a
ghost within its detection range.) The ghost unit is immediately
"destroyed" when identified. (Destroying ghost 'Mechs does not
add to the Word of Blake's victory point total.)

which means they're the same IFF beacon systems on scrap piles used in the training course example mentioned above. they're not actually projecting a holographic image, they're just feeding fake data to the mech's computers to create fake returns, like an ECM system.

that sort of system wouldn't work for hiding tunnel entrances, and certainly wouldn't qualify as "holographic walls". which would require trek holodeck level of low-key holography projection. the closest Btech gets to that is the Boreal Reach Arena in Solaris VII's Davion sector, which combines the normal glowy holoprojector tech with physical obstacles that can emerge from the shiftable floor to give the simulation some realism and interactability on a mech scale.

[Church14]

Didn’t that event also get only work because the clanners were completely ignorant of deception? It said enemy IIF so it was an enemy level of dense? Any spheroid force wouldn’t have ‘fallen’ for it?

[glitterboy2098]

Didn’t that event also get only work because the clanners were completely ignorant of deception? It said enemy IIF so it was an enemy level of dense? Any spheroid force wouldn’t have ‘fallen’ for it?

not so much ignorant of deception i think, as just unfamiliar with that style of training course. as we see in "Blood Legacy" with Phelan's re-training, and in "way of the clans" with Aiden pryde's training, the Clan approach to training tends to involve actual live (downrated) fire against other cadets and training officers, rather than simulated engagements in what amounts to a fancy shooting gallery.

not sure why the WOB would fall for it, other than just the general inexperience of a lot of its troops during the conquest of Terra.

[Cannonshop]

not so much ignorant of deception i think, as just unfamiliar with that style of training course. as we see in "Blood Legacy" with Phelan's re-training, and in "way of the clans" with Aiden pryde's training, the Clan approach to training tends to involve actual live (downrated) fire against other cadets and training officers, rather than simulated engagements in what amounts to a fancy shooting gallery.

not sure why the WOB would fall for it, other than just the general inexperience of a lot of its troops during the conquest of Terra.

People TEND to react to what they EXPECT to see or rather, what they SUSPECT They'll See.

Expecting field fortifications and suspecting a larger force?  well, that's actually pretty likely even with veterans, and may even be amplified if the live defenders they ran into earlier in the day weren't up to the expectations they landed with.

[Colt Ward]

Secondary would be not vehicles or mechs but SRM equipped infantry firing from defensive positions. Cheap and a throw away unit these crit seekers could do tremendous damage and harassment far outside there cost.

Coming back to this, I disagree . . . they were not able to raise and train tons of new folks.  They get more combat power out of masses of armor than they do PBI- whose SRMs do not have the same ranges or destructive capability as mech-scale SRMs.  Using such weapons means you are letting the Clan forces get in really close, which means you have ONE shot as they are passing through your position.

The Redoubts were also not walled off cities like Tikonov, but rather bands of interlocking trenches, pillboxes, tank/mech positions (basically improved hull down), anti-tank/mech traps (like IRL dragon's teeth & tank ditches), along with strongpoints for nodes.  They were also not to die in place, but set up so the defenders had faster/protected paths to fallback to assume the next positions.  Think sheltered roads for armor so they get extra MP moving out of the bunker that has a door for armor retreat.  Depending on the location you would also look at a lot of flodded areas to create bogs, possibly even locations that stymie the tactical movement of non-VTOL BA.

[Metallgewitter]

True to that point. I think the one coming closest would be Japan but there they also included the entire population of Japan into their defense. Staging from i think 3 somewhat complete Castle Brians and the population doing their part with street blockades, rioting and throwing Molotov cocktails at every opportunity. And it basically wiped out an entire Galaxy of Clanners (though I think at that point the Falcons had also no orbital artillery left so there is that)

[Stormlion1]

Coming back to this, I disagree . . . they were not able to raise and train tons of new folks.  They get more combat power out of masses of armor than they do PBI- whose SRMs do not have the same ranges or destructive capability as mech-scale SRMs.  Using such weapons means you are letting the Clan forces get in really close, which means you have ONE shot as they are passing through your position.

The Redoubts were also not walled off cities like Tikonov, but rather bands of interlocking trenches, pillboxes, tank/mech positions (basically improved hull down), anti-tank/mech traps (like IRL dragon's teeth & tank ditches), along with strongpoints for nodes.  They were also not to die in place, but set up so the defenders had faster/protected paths to fallback to assume the next positions.  Think sheltered roads for armor so they get extra MP moving out of the bunker that has a door for armor retreat.  Depending on the location you would also look at a lot of flodded areas to create bogs, possibly even locations that stymie the tactical movement of non-VTOL BA.

I'm looking at cost here. They can train literally thousands of infantry and equip them with several SRM Launchers apiece for the cost of a single heavy tank. And since as noted there are 'interlocking trenches, pillboxes, tank/mech positions (basically improved hull down), anti-tank/mech traps (like IRL dragon's teeth & tank ditches), along with strongpoints for nodes.' These would be the perfect positions to field PBI's. As noted as well they do get one shot really but if you have the infrastructure in place for all those redoubts and such you also have the ability to have basic trucks and small vehicles to move those troops around. Possibly faster than Battlemechs can move.

And that's not even thinking of using things like railway tunnels or regular roads or underground tunnels. Or fighting in a town or city where every building can have a squad inside it. The biggest defenders on Terra in fact should be infantry units.

[Metallgewitter]

If so they should have reinforce the pure infantry units with battle armor troops. Otherwise Elemental assault would wreck havoc among the unarmored infantry. But urban warfare would probably have wrecked most of Terra's cities so that should have been the last option (ah yes Hour of the Wolf was inspired by "downfall" right?)

[Church14]

If so they should have reinforce the pure infantry units with battle armor troops. Otherwise Elemental assault would wreck havoc among the unarmored infantry. But urban warfare would probably have wrecked most of Terra's cities so that should have been the last option (ah yes Hour of the Wolf was inspired by "downfall" right?)

We’ve seen in other novels that elementals will die to poorly armed irregulars if there’s a good plan. There’s an elemental point that dies to man traps and a ballista made out of leave springs in the Twilight of the clans novels. The point dies to unarmored infantry without scoring a single kill.

But also, we don’t know what the composition was for the defenders except that people were the limiting factor and not hardware. I don’t see a compelling reason to assume there wasn’t extensive BA in the redoubts mixed in with standard infantry. Now, I’m making an assumption here, but I’m assuming the later redoubt assaults were light on elemental/clan-BA support. Wolves kept their units in the fight and sustained pressure with extensive mech reserves since pilots often survive their machines. But BA troopers are more likely to be seriously injured if their suit is ruined. I’d assume similarly for ASF assets too.

So the farther into the war, the more those infantry in the redoubt are going to take serious tolls on mechs. Well, in a well written or logical novel they would have.

A pretty tiny percentage of Terran cities had fighting around them. And the ones with redoubts were evacuated.

[Metallgewitter]

A pretty tiny percentage of Terran cities had fighting around them. And the ones with redoubts were evacuated.

That is true but it was menmtioned earlier that infantry in cities can wreck havoc on an enemy. And from the description of how Tau Galaxy met it's demise there were battles in urban zones. The battle for Terra was in that regard rather tame compared to the defense Amaris and the Blakist threw up against their opponents.

[Cannonshop]

That is true but it was menmtioned earlier that infantry in cities can wreck havoc on an enemy. And from the description of how Tau Galaxy met it's demise there were battles in urban zones. The battle for Terra was in that regard rather tame compared to the defense Amaris and the Blakist threw up against their opponents.

well, yah, Stone used the same plan the previous owners who lost Terra used, only with fewer resources-this, and there were LESSONS that were not learned from the previous Clan conflicts (See: Sharon Bryan's layered fortress of invincibility on Melissia.  it didn't take particularly long for the Jade Falcons to overcome it.)

Fortified positions only work if you have relief on the way, otherwise, you've built yourself an expensive tomb.

[Church14]

well, yah, Stone used the same plan the previous owners who lost Terra used, only with fewer resources-this, and there were LESSONS that were not learned from the previous Clan conflicts (See: Sharon Bryan's layered fortress of invincibility on Melissia.  it didn't take particularly long for the Jade Falcons to overcome it.)

Fortified positions only work if you have relief on the way, otherwise, you've built yourself an expensive tomb.

Like the 6 RCTs and change worth of mobile forces we see going after wolf supply lines to cut off their ability to sustain the assaults on redoubts. And the redoubts did work against the Falcons. Geneva bogged down multiple galaxies of troops. Normandy as well. Falcons resorted to orbital bombardment against geneva. Which means the idea worked. Normandy only fell because of “muh Scotland”

We can’t really evaluate how the redoubts worked against the wolves without stepping out of universe because the wolves were just slaughtering whatever they faced regardless of numbers, established logic in universe, and established logic in the novel itself. Nothing about the wolf story in HotW can be taken at face value in universe.

I’d rather stay on topic than rehash this here.