Author Topic: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?  (Read 2637 times)

Colt Ward

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What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« on: 04 September 2024, 09:40:35 »
While BV is a useful standard the usual calculation is that it takess 1.5 to 2 IS mechs to fight a single Clan mech of comparable stats.  But occasionally the Inner Sphere has turned out a mech (follow Apollo's Law, no Clan weps) that can go up against a comparable Clan mech on equal footing- basically a was that depends on Initiative and shot placement.

The first that comes to mind for me is the Pillager 4Z.  Throwing two 15 points hits and being harder to hit at range due to stealth armor bring the balance.  Being harder to hit IMO offsets the IS XL weakness and Clan weapon's heavier damage.  I would not be worried taking a Stealth Pillager into the ring in Solaris against any Clan assault of near the same weight- Dire Wolf, Turkina, Tomahawk II, Kingfisher, Highlander IIc, Kodiak, etc no worries.  The ONLY concerns would be the Phoenix Hawk IIc' s mobility or the MASC/Supercharger Executioners ability to move with lots of weapons.

But the mobility concerns come down to losing initiative multiple turns.  Heck a side torso hit on the Executioner puts it immediately in danger from any second hit.

What designs do you think could face a comparable Clan mech?
Colt Ward
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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #1 on: 04 September 2024, 10:29:35 »
Hercules vs Loki Prime?  Close in mass, same ground speed, similar warload (2x big hole-punchers with some ancillary guns).  Who wins is going to come down to "Can the Loki hit the Herc's ammo bins before the Herc cuts through the Loki's thin armor?"
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fishfoode

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #2 on: 04 September 2024, 13:08:06 »
The Cicada 4A is basically the best in its class of 40 ton scout/strikers, and could probably put up a pretty good fight against a Viper or Pouncer.

MarauderD

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #3 on: 04 September 2024, 13:29:52 »
The new Cicada is the bomb, but if comparable means 40 tons (and it might not depending on what the OP meant) then the Carrion Crow and Kontio are going to want a word.  Both are very different mechs, but would give the Cicada a target that probably can't be soloed.
« Last Edit: 04 September 2024, 13:34:19 by MarauderD »

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #4 on: 04 September 2024, 13:32:25 »
In the right terrain I'd take a Tarantula 3A against just about any Mist Lynx.
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Colt Ward

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #5 on: 04 September 2024, 19:26:18 »
Hercules vs Loki Prime?  Close in mass, same ground speed, similar warload (2x big hole-punchers with some ancillary guns).  Who wins is going to come down to "Can the Loki hit the Herc's ammo bins before the Herc cuts through the Loki's thin armor?"

It is not a specific Clan mech . . . let's just look at the comparables- could the Hercules take down with the same ease- Cauldron Born of any config?  Linebacker configs? or the best Clan 65 ton design, the Arcas?  What about a bit lighter- the Mad Dog?
Colt Ward
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Col Toda

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #6 on: 04 September 2024, 23:16:55 »
Any mech with a heavy PPC or a Gauss rifle has a chance by vertue of head capping possibilities.   The Wight light mech is 900 and change BV .

 The Dragonfire is fairly heavily and flexibly  armed .

A dual between a Piranha and a Wight would be a fair fight.  Both light catagory and 900 + BV .

BV is good when matching same weight class . Stay from that it breaks down a bit.
« Last Edit: 04 September 2024, 23:37:13 by Col Toda »

Colt Ward

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #7 on: 05 September 2024, 00:13:17 »
A dual between a Piranha and a Wight would be a fair fight.  Both light catagory and 900 + BV .

BV is good when matching same weight class . Stay from that it breaks down a bit.

OP was about outside of the artificial game construct of BV, it was also about ignoring the random chance of winning- aka headcap shots & CT triple TACs.

Could a Wight take a Cougar Prime?  What about a Hellion configuration?
Colt Ward
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DevianID

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #8 on: 05 September 2024, 01:44:05 »
In general, IS mechs are always worse then clan mechs of the same weight/role.  So no general IS mech beats its counter part, because by definition the clan counterpart is better.

In specific, IS mechs with good short ramge focus can beat long range clan mechs when terrain or tactics bring the shorter ranged IS stuff up close, negating the clan advamtage.  But thats not really helpful, as ot goes the other way too with the long range clan mech beating the shorter ranged IS mech on open terrain.

Also, we can cherry pick the clan mechs that, in weight balancing, come up short.  After all, thats why we use BV now.  Like, an uller will get tore up by a scarabus with TSM, but the uller isn't really a fast melee mech, so it's not exactly a comparable mech.  Ie you might find some IS 65 ton mechs that can deal with a Loki, but the jagermech is the most comparable mech to the thin skinned Loki, and the Loki trounces a Jagermech.

AlphaMirage

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #9 on: 05 September 2024, 04:04:28 »
Speaking of the Kit Fix, it's wanton preference for ballistic weapons does mean a Wolfhound could fight it. Any Clan mech overly reliant on ballistics is actually a pretty good comparison since their versions are not 'that' much better than IS. Any Clan mech with lots of missiles is going to wreck an equivalent and with smart tactics you can defeat an energy dependent mech but it's tough.

EPG

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #10 on: 05 September 2024, 06:00:35 »
The Grand Dragon 7k (the one with all the medium lasers in the left arm) is my vote.  It may not be able to beat other 60 ton clan mechs 1:1 but no IS mech can.  The beauty of this design is that it’s built using the principal of clan mechs.  The clanner is going to have to beat it the hard way.  Can’t out range its main guns, so it’s going to get a chance to shoot.  Can’t out run it with anything that can afford to fight it.  It has enough extra close range fire power that getting in close to deliver an overwhelming blow quickly with short ranged weapons is high risk.  It does have the risk of getting knocked out by a side torso removal due to the XL engine, but that is the necessary price to pay for an IS mech that prevents the clans from controlling the range in a battle.

Basically there’s nothing a clanner can do to beat it with any tactical ‘tricks’ that give them an advantage.  It’s going to come down to which mech is better and which mech warrior has better skills - ie the clanner is going to have to win the hard way. 

17thRecon

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #11 on: 05 September 2024, 06:16:05 »
I’m just sticking to clan invasion era time frame, but I think the Grasshopper, Ostroc and Ostol are all built in a manner that they can compete in a standup 1v1 against clan mechs of same tonnage from the same era. I’d add the Dragon, too, as long as it’s the PPC equipped one, not the AC/5. Probably not an even split, but enough of a punchers chance to make a go of a hard earned 40/60 split. I just stuck to the heavy weight class as I read and responded.

Church14

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #12 on: 05 September 2024, 07:57:20 »
Until dark ages, I think the DVS-2 Devastator is the closest mech to being able to stand toe to toe with a clan assault 1v1 and win. Barring random headshots, if the DVS doesn't win, it should leave the clanner mangled.  50 damage at range comes close to or surpasses what a lot of clan assaults can reliably do.

It's the only mech I can think of for this question without trying to say it can beat "X" unoptimized clan mech of same weight.


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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #13 on: 05 September 2024, 19:05:51 »
I'd say that the new Caesar variant with hardened armor could put up a good fight against most Clan heavy mechs.  Sure, they could outmaneuver it, but there aren't a lot of Clan heavies with the durability to last long enough to wear it down before it wears them down.
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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #14 on: 06 September 2024, 08:45:57 »
Given the parameters, I'm in the camp of just saying no. A Clan tech machine is inherently superior to an all-IS tech machine; both in weapon capabilities and in structural differences (ie fewer crits for ES and FF, smaller XL and DHS). You may hit points where a specialized IS design can defeat a Clan machine that is out of its element and/or poorly designed - a Berserker taking on a Kraken in Solaris - but that's going to be specifics and not a general endorsement.

The closest I would come to an outright claim of being at par would be the Gunsmith; the light weight means a comparable Clan machine will still be relatively fragile, while the X-pulses of decent range and the reflective armor negates the Clan advantage in energy weapons. Even then, the heat burden of the lasers and XXL means it would be forced into a hit & run scenario, or greatly reducing its firepower. Its speed advantage is not so great that it could *reliably* disengage, and again, being so light, Clan lasers are still going to take their toll pretty quickly, to say nothing of any other weapons the opponent may be carrying. Might be worth testing though.

OatsAndHall

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #15 on: 06 September 2024, 10:40:24 »
The Grasshopper 7P; it's incredibly mobile for a 70-tonner. And, it's mix of X-Pulses and ER mediums make it accurate while jumping 6 hexes. I've put it up against most Clan heavies and done well.

Dr. Banzai

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #16 on: 06 September 2024, 12:03:15 »
Any of them with the right pilot.

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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #17 on: 06 September 2024, 12:24:44 »

There are a few, competently designed, Spheroid mechs in the canon with specialty armors that can even or tilt the playing field against equivalent Clantech with the right rock/paper/scissors match-up.  The ballistic-reinforced armor on MAD-8K Marauder II, for example, will neuter most of the ranged firepower from a Dire Wolf D, E, H, T, W, and X, and take the AC/20 fangs out of the Dire Wolf S, Prometheus and Widowmaker, while still throwing 45-points of ranged damage at the Dire Wolf each turn.

There’s a lot of incompetent, specialty armor designs in the canon with too little firepower or not enough mobility, so specialty armor is not a panacea.  But specialty armor designs are worth looking into against Clanners.
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Sir Chaos

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #18 on: 06 September 2024, 14:20:42 »
Some of the more rugged and heavily armed IS mechs can handle the more speed-oriented Clan mechs, or mechs with more of a specialty weapon suite, of their weight class. Say, the Awesome (even the old -8Q) should be able to take a Gargoyle Prime one on one, and many modernized Thunderbolt models should be able to take most Linebacker configurations.

But an IS mech that can take any Clan mech of its weight class? As others have stated, that pretty much cannot exist, outside of having a far better pilot, or terrain designed to play to its strengths and mitigate the strengths of the Clan mechs (for example the base model Komodo could probably take most 45 ton Clan mechs on a map with no line-of-sight longer than 3 hexes).
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Lagrange

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #19 on: 06 September 2024, 21:04:31 »
One of the oddities is that the inner sphere gets a number of interesting technologies and then doesn't really use them (or, when they do, typically misuses them) in their designs.  A few examples:
a) C3 computers.  Employed intelligently (and ignoring the BV implications), the +2 or +4 to hit they imply is a steep advantage.
b) Hardened armor.  The ability to trade weapons for armor is a significant win sometimes.
c) Small Shield.  Not that significant, but often a win if you have a supporting weapons load out.
d) CLPS.  Apparently Comstar had this and they never used it?  But if you are adding +2 to hit at long range, that has a huge impact on the balance of fire at long range.
e) Mechanical Jump Boosters. Now you can have a Jump 10 Assault Scout.
f) Bloodhound AP.  And, your scout is very good.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #20 on: 06 September 2024, 22:04:45 »
The Chameleon is a seriously finicky piece of equipment.  Comstar didn't use it because they didn't have the ability to keep it working on a statistically significant number of mechs in battlefield conditions.
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House Davie Merc

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #21 on: 07 September 2024, 10:45:59 »
During the original Clan invasion ( circa 1990 real world) the 3050 "upgrades" were mostly garbage.

They did so badly that many of the players that stayed with the game began using tougher lower
tech designs against Clan Omnimechs.
One of the best mechs to use against Clan heavies at that time was the Warhammer WHM-6D.
It was tougher then all of the Clan heavy omnis except for the Timberwolf yet did just enough damage
to pierce their armor quickly enough to win. Sometimes.  :smiley:

Nowadays everyone seems to forget that at the time of the original invasion the rules were different
and it was far easier to mitigate the range advantage of the Clans under those rules.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #22 on: 07 September 2024, 13:22:18 »
What rules are you talking about?
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House Davie Merc

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #23 on: 07 September 2024, 21:42:17 »
What rules are you talking about?
Before TW fire and smoke were considered part of the basic rules of the game.
Once they were removed from the basic rules and back shelved to TacOps they
disappeared from common usage.
Pretty much when anything is removed from the basic rules and placed into an optional
rules situation it falls out of usage. They've been removed from any form of generally
accepted tournament level rules that I've seen since TW became the rule book.

When the original invasion took place fire and smoke rules were heavily
used to negate the Clanners range advantage.
Inferno SRMs could even light an empty hex on fire and produce smoke for several rounds.
This made cheap SRM carrying units  like the Wasp, Locust LCT-1S, and J. Edgar Light Hover tank
suddenly invaluable.
They could light flammable hexes on fire for the duration of the game or until those hexes were cleared.
Non-flammable hexes burned for a set time if Infernos were used. 
Add in LRM delivered mine fields when they became available and you get a great
ability to limit their range advantage and encourage them to go where you want them to.
Add a dash of artillery for flavor as needed!
Legging Mechs with hovers was more dependable as well.

IMHO-taking these items out of TW just handed the Clanners fights they
would have had to put some effort into before.
« Last Edit: 07 September 2024, 21:44:36 by House Davie Merc »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #24 on: 07 September 2024, 22:23:47 »
Hmm.

I didn't play much before Total Warfare was released, but I don't ever remember anyone using fire and smoke rules in any of those games.
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Starfury

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #25 on: 08 September 2024, 00:58:19 »
Off the top of my head

Thunderbolt 7M, 5sb, and all of the Project Phoenix variants.
Devastator DVS-2
Sunder
Tenshi
Stalker 6M, 7D, 9F
Stalker II
Tempest
Juliano
Vanquisher
All of the Celestials
Avalanche
Brahma
Battlemaster 4S
Titan 2P/1ar/1aj
Dragon Fire
Avatar
Argus
Hermes II 5sr
Warhammer 7A, 8D, 9S, 10CT
Talon
Night Hawk
Black Knight 6b, 9, 12, and the Dark Age variants
Naginata
Some later variants of the Mauler from Shrapnel
The Grand Titan 11 and the 13
Shockwave
Shadow Hawk 5D, 5S
Griffin 3M
Anzu
A whole bunch of Crusaders
Flashman, especially the new one
Thug
Banshee
Awesome 9M and up
Imp 4M
Grand Crusader II
Templar
Templar III
Marauder II later variants
Archer 5C
Longbow


MoffMalthus

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #26 on: 08 September 2024, 04:50:46 »
Haven't seen anyone mention the Specter yet so I'll throw that one in. The Ilclan era version is one of the best light mechs in the game IMHO.
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Prospernia

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #27 on: 08 September 2024, 13:23:46 »
Back in the day, we didn't have BV's, so we made due;  however, once we got an idea of how much the mechs actually cost, in C-Bills, you can buy four tanks of the same mass for every one mech you can buy.  Four Demolishers vs. one Clan Gargoyle;  they can do 160-points of damage, per turn.  It also depends on the player(s) and if you use the special-rules like Hidden-Units etc.

Also, depends on luck and skill, a 3025 Quickdraw, with a Hatchetman's Hatchet, can take out a Dire-Wolf, with one hit provided he gets close enough to use his hatchet and rolls a six on the punch, hit-location.

And we never really used C3-computers, but I suspect that might provide an edge if used right.
« Last Edit: 08 September 2024, 13:56:42 by Prospernia »

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #28 on: 08 September 2024, 16:59:03 »
If we take BV for army building off the table and look at 1 on 1, be it a Clan trail, Solaris bout or two isolated mechs, it comes down to allot of things. Clans have a clear advantage ton per ton (why IS strength has been numbers) so you really need to play towards individual mechs strengths on a particular battlefield.

Personally, I tried using terrain to my advantage to negate Clans range advantage. Clanners avoid Melee a tried to adhere to their dueling rules to gain honor so playing dirty usually works; hiding in wait like a ambush predator, using thunder mines, smoke and infernos, getting in close for melee, ect. This means it comes down to the player/Mechwarrior as much as the machine, if not more so. After that, it comes down to what will help you win.

Mechs that won IS vs Clan in my personal games;

Thunderbolt- Flexable and resilient, it doesn't have that knock down fire power but it has the durability to survive hits from clan weapons from Clan mechs around the same weight category. Took out a Hellbringer in a TDR-9SE, the jump jets where enough to allow me to get around building to help negate the Hellbringer's speed. A  Summoner took out Thunderbolt after downing the Hellbringer but only after a lucky through armor critical to the engine (the RNG giveth, the RNG taketh away) 

Flashman FLS-7K- a tough little guy often overlooked. It can be out flanked easily by the faster clan machines but like the Thunderbolt, it can take the hits long enough to make fair bit of damage in return. Some may prefer the Grasshopper instead just for the Jump Jets

Penetrator- Fellow forum mebers get really hung up on the mech having AMS ammo in the torso and seem to forget the Penetrator is still a jumping heaving with considerable firepower. As before; wait for an opening, jump in than jump out. Your opponent is faster but unless you are facing another jumping mech, you just need to bid your time befor trading shots.     

Axman- You do not use this mech in a fair fight, you use this mech as if you are Jason Voorhees in a slasher movie. You wait in hiding (or even run away) until you have the opportunity to pump in close to use that AC/20. If you knock the mech down, then you keep using that AC/20 and add melee. If the mech is still standing, jump away until you next chance. The same can be said for the Ti Ts'ang only it has the speed to match most Clan heavies.

BlackKnight- There is a reason why this mech is almost always the center fold for the ComGuard. I honestly went full Leero Jenkins in this mech thinking it wasn't going to last but ended up soaking enough damage to give some in return. Some good rolls on my end defiantly helped as a number of bad piloting roles ended up killing a Timber Wolf before any of my weapons (slid on a street corner, crashed into a building and crited the engine) but at the end of the match, half of my Black Knight was still standing and the Timby was not. This was mostly RNG but worth mentioning. I have seen the Orion last to the end as well, surviving ammo explosion and out slugging more powerful mechs earning it's description in the fluff a durable command mech.

Battlemaster- I established that I'm a fan of the Thunderbolt, the Battlemaster is a bigger Thunderbolt with more armor and more armor means allot when you are going against bigger guns with more range. Play it like your heavies, wait for them to to get close so range is no longer the issue. The bonus for being a fat heavy mech is that those punches and kicks are going to hit that much more.     

Berserker- Clanners don't like melee, this mech is design to run up to the opposing mech and start hitting it in the face with a hatchet and it has enough armor to keep hitting for awhile. Allot of people hate this mech for being the complete opposite of the Devastator/Nightstar/Gunslinger/Highlander but those mechs are meant to part of a gauss firing line, the Berserker is built to live up to its name and be more psychological than anything else... well, a 100 mech with a hatchet is going to make a satisfying sound when it hits but it's the fact you have a 100 ton mech that can close the distance so fast freaks out those not ready for it. Similar tactics as the Axman and Ti Ts'ang only once you have your opening, you don't stop. The Berserker has enough armor to take the damage when you play aggressively, you only need to play cat and mouse if your opponent has jump jets. Otherwise, push hem into a corner and keep swinging and kicking as long as you have armor.   
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NicoKen

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Re: What single IS mech could solo a comparable Clan mech?
« Reply #29 on: 11 January 2025, 15:54:11 »
I think in the case of the Falconer the fluff is correct. It should be able to counter most Clan heavys in 1vs1.
Not a Night Gyr or Timber Wolf, but Hellbringer, Summoner and Man o War should be possible.
Maybe the Jinggau could also be a candidate.

 

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