Should late 3SW have used primitive/prototype standard weapons? low tech option

[Kargush]

This is the only thing I see being the biggest problem.  If you don't have the blueprints because nobody's built the thing in nigh-unto 500 years, how are you going to hand them out?

R&D them?  When R&D is so smashed that even maintaining the current equipment is hard, much less the next step up of Star League tech, researching and developing lower-grade tech is just as difficult.

That's why those library cores were so important, bringing back the stuff that could be downgraded later on, to provide those blueprints who want the "barely enough" equipment.

As various conflicts around the world have shown us, people are *very* inventive. From slam-fire shotguns to torsion-powered mortars. And all the way up to functioning submachine guns. All it takes is one person with the know-how and tools. And those tools can be surprisingly simple. No-one's been maintaining blueprints for smoothbore cast bronze cannons for several centuries, and yet people make low-tech cannons all over the place, often with nothing more to go on than "get a solid tube, close it in one end, drill a hole for the match, and load from the muzzle." Are they dangerous for the user? Yes. Will they make a mess of anything they hit? Yes. Sometimes that's all you need.

[Kargush]

If the planet is making M1917 Browning Machine guns and they're given plans for the M1919 Browning Machine gun they're still going to have to retool. And it'd be worth it to them as the M1919 is a lighter weapon. But if they're already making the M1919 why would they make the 1917?

I dare say either of those are a tad more complex than a PPS-43 or a sling-shot powered jam tin grenade.

[Charistoph]

Do Rifles fit that description though? They'd been produced for hundreds of years on a lot of planets in every realm. They'd be well documented with many examples in museums to examine. That would make it easier to bring them back into production, especially since they're lower tech than Autocannons. Although if the planet is capable of making autocannons they don't have a reason to make Rifles.

That's what makes RC's extinction date so odd to me. They can't really compete with ACs after 2470 when BAR9 armor becomes common. By the time the Star League starts their main user should be Militia's and they'd be getting more rare with them. By the end of the Star League they shouldn't be on any battlefield outside of reenactments or those in the deep periphery.  They should start coming back around 2825 when militia's start having trouble obtaining standard quality equipment do to the devastation of the 1st Succession War, not becoming extinct.   

I don't expect to see TROs filled with units using lower tech equipment but it would be nice.

As a point I made earlier, you still need the blueprints and chemical formulae in order to properly reproduce them.  Even reverse engineering takes R&D, and those institutions were smashed such that we didn't see anything new for over 150 years.  Everybody was so focused on what they could maintain, that even researching backwards technology wasn't feasible.

As various conflicts around the world have shown us, people are *very* inventive. From slam-fire shotguns to torsion-powered mortars. And all the way up to functioning submachine guns. All it takes is one person with the know-how and tools. And those tools can be surprisingly simple. No-one's been maintaining blueprints for smoothbore cast bronze cannons for several centuries, and yet people make low-tech cannons all over the place, often with nothing more to go on than "get a solid tube, close it in one end, drill a hole for the match, and load from the muzzle." Are they dangerous for the user? Yes. Will they make a mess of anything they hit? Yes. Sometimes that's all you need.

Yet there is a rather large difference between the most primitive of cannon and the cannons used on 21st-century tanks.  Especially when we have people who have time and resources to play around with doing recreations, i.e. R&D.  Both metallurgy and chemical formulae for both propellant and explosive creation are still needed, and that means R&D if you don't have them on hand.

There's a huge difference between, "I have a permanent stick to bonk with," and "let's recreate something that requires an industry to produce."

[General308]

Why not?

Because the universe has zero reason to have them retconed into that era.  The time period is fine they way it exist now.  Zero good reason exist to change.

[Daryk]

Fair opinion, but others exist.

[RifleMech]

I dare say either of those are a tad more complex than a PPS-43 or a sling-shot powered jam tin grenade.

True but they are something a Tech B planet could build. A Tech A planet would be making Gatling Guns. Presuming of course they're more technologically advanced than sling-shots.

As a point I made earlier, you still need the blueprints and chemical formulae in order to properly reproduce them.  Even reverse engineering takes R&D, and those institutions were smashed such that we didn't see anything new for over 150 years.  Everybody was so focused on what they could maintain, that even researching backwards technology wasn't feasible.

Yet there is a rather large difference between the most primitive of cannon and the cannons used on 21st-century tanks.  Especially when we have people who have time and resources to play around with doing recreations, i.e. R&D.  Both metallurgy and chemical formulae for both propellant and explosive creation are still needed, and that means R&D if you don't have them on hand.

There's a huge difference between, "I have a permanent stick to bonk with," and "let's recreate something that requires an industry to produce."

That presumes that they don't already have those things. Rifles were made and used for centuries. Sure there'd be some R&D but they're not starting from scratch. They've been in production and use for centuries so they would be known.

Rifles have an availability of F during the Star League Era. They don't go extinct until after the 1st Succession War around 2825. So for most, they'd be hard to get but they could be obtained. Their going extinct after the 1st Succession War doesn't make sense. The planets making them wouldn't have been low military targets. With all the disruptions of the 1st Succession War making it difficult to get Age of War tech I would think they'd start making more Rifles, not less. Even if by some chance that all the manufacturers were lost Rifles date back to pre-spaceflight. They're low tech enough that they shouldn't need a NAIS to research and build them. Sure there would be some R&D but they could be built. Otherwise it'd be like saying we can't build flintlocks now which we can.

As for other replacement tech, it isn't until after the 2nd Succession War that everyone works on just maintaining what they have. I would think that they would have been trying to come up with replacements for tech lost before them. I lean towards blaming Comstar for why they didn't manage too. Still, I wonder what was used before Beagles and Guardians were introduced. I also wonder how EW Equipment is extinct in 3046 but has a Availability Rating of E during the Clan Invasion.



 

Because the universe has zero reason to have them retconed into that era.  The time period is fine they way it exist now.  Zero good reason exist to change.

Except a lot of tech has already been retconned into existing during that time period. We haven't seen them but they exist. The question was why some things aren't available.
Rockets are so useful they should be more available than they are.
Rifles are low tech and cheap enough that they should be available, if rare.
Chemical lasers are useful enough, and have existed since the 1990s that they should still be available if rare for the same reasons Clan Hell’s Horses brought them back.
Primitive Prototype Weapons, could possibly be found in some lost cache or in the deep periphery but I can't see them going back into production in the Periphery or Inner Sphere. If the factory is capable of building autocannons they'd go with standard versions.
Rail Guns. I can see some trying to bring back rail gun as replacements for gauss rifles and Comstar stopping them.
Ancient Missiles, they're too big and heavy that I can't see anyone producing them over standard SRM/LRMs.

Would that effect the Succession Wars? Sure, but I don't think they'd change things that much. We've had a lot of tech that existed during the Succession Wars for years and it hasn't really changed the Succession Wars. Even if we were to get a TRO filled with that tech it'd just give players some more options for their games. Adding a few more weapons isn't going to change that.

[Charistoph]

That presumes that they don't already have those things. Rifles were made and used for centuries. Sure there'd be some R&D but they're not starting from scratch. They've been in production and use for centuries so they would be known.

You presume that they're actively producing things.  Equipment doesn't necessarily go extinct the year it stops being produced, just when it's no longer found.

All it takes is one generation of not doing something for it to be lost.  We can't make the engines that took astronauts to the moon right now, and that wasn't that long ago.

Rifles have an availability of F during the Star League Era. They don't go extinct until after the 1st Succession War around 2825. So for most, they'd be hard to get but they could be obtained. Their going extinct after the 1st Succession War doesn't make sense. The planets making them wouldn't have been low military targets. With all the disruptions of the 1st Succession War making it difficult to get Age of War tech I would think they'd start making more Rifles, not less. Even if by some chance that all the manufacturers were lost Rifles date back to pre-spaceflight. They're low tech enough that they shouldn't need a NAIS to research and build them. Sure there would be some R&D but they could be built. Otherwise it'd be like saying we can't build flintlocks now which we can.

I think you mean they would have been low military targets.  Again, that's a presumption.  There's a lot of things where it's not produced in an area simply because it stopped being produced so long ago, the manufactories of this type of equipment simply never made it out far enough to begin with to avoid the worst excesses of the Succession Wars.  Or the manufactories were upgraded long ago to handle what was ubiquitous in 3SW.

As for other replacement tech, it isn't until after the 2nd Succession War that everyone works on just maintaining what they have. I would think that they would have been trying to come up with replacements for tech lost before them. I lean towards blaming Comstar for why they didn't manage too. Still, I wonder what was used before Beagles and Guardians were introduced. I also wonder how EW Equipment is extinct in 3046 but has a Availability Rating of E during the Clan Invasion.

Right, 2nd Succession War, when it goes extinct in the 1st.  A LOT of stuff died in the 2nd, almost as much as the 1st.  Remember this is about the 3rd Succession War, not the 2nd.

And if there are no manufactories or plans for making Rifle Cannons and their Ammo, or Rocket Launcher racks and rockets, to say nothing about how long the Chem Laser was extinct, before the 1SW starts, why should anyone remember how to do it in the 3rd some 40 years later?

Honestly, I think, at best, we'd be looking at remote Periphery worlds still constructing or relying on that equipment.  Places the Star League simply didn't reach because they had been separated from mankind long enough.

[DOC_Agren]

I will be honest Rifles have a use, but not in a real defensive military but as those who role is keep our citizens inline.

[RifleMech]

You presume that they're actively producing things.  Equipment doesn't necessarily go extinct the year it stops being produced, just when it's no longer found.

All it takes is one generation of not doing something for it to be lost.  We can't make the engines that took astronauts to the moon right now, and that wasn't that long ago.

Rifles would have been produced until couldn't compete with Armor protection. For the HRC that would between 2445 and 2470 when BAR8+9  armors became common. After that the LRC is useless on the battlefield and the MRC and HRC can't really compete. They still have uses but they'd be on the way out. Going by IO, it took 400 years from when Rifle became obsolete to go extinct. But the plans would still exist. Even if they didn't New St. Andrews managed to produce them. If an independent periphery world can do that, low tech worlds in the IS should be able to.

No, there's no one with practical knowledge but there's still book knowledge, plans, etc. So they'd experiment some. How quickly the item gets into production depends on how complicated it is. A rocket engine is a lot more complicated than a cannon.

I think you mean they would have been low military targets.  Again, that's a presumption.  There's a lot of things where it's not produced in an area simply because it stopped being produced so long ago, the manufactories of this type of equipment simply never made it out far enough to begin with to avoid the worst excesses of the Succession Wars.  Or the manufactories were upgraded long ago to handle what was ubiquitous in 3SW.

Sure, there's a lot of places that wouldn't have things because they stopped being built a long time ago or war killed of production. That doesn't mean that it isn't possible to bring them back. 

Right, 2nd Succession War, when it goes extinct in the 1st.  A LOT of stuff died in the 2nd, almost as much as the 1st.  Remember this is about the 3rd Succession War, not the 2nd.

And if there are no manufactories or plans for making Rifle Cannons and their Ammo, or Rocket Launcher racks and rockets, to say nothing about how long the Chem Laser was extinct, before the 1SW starts, why should anyone remember how to do it in the 3rd some 40 years later?

Honestly, I think, at best, we'd be looking at remote Periphery worlds still constructing or relying on that equipment.  Places the Star League simply didn't reach because they had been separated from mankind long enough.

If an item is becoming more difficult to obtain, it's natural to try to come up with a replacement. Only we don't see that. Part of that is because the things we're talking about are actually more recent introductions. The other part... Comstar? Other reason?

Rifles go extinct between the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars. The date is... odd. Still, with ICE being used to keep combat vehicles in production, and even mechs working, it doesn't take too much imagination to think that some world would bring back lower tech weapons too.

IO doesn't have Rockets going extinct but their availability is odd. I would think that even the SLDF would use Rockets as external ordnance on ASF, CF, and VTOLs. That would mean they'd be more available, not less. Not only that but upgrading them from primitive to standard quality.  And going into the 3rd Succession War you'd think Militia's would use them as a cheap means of defense.

Chemical Lasers... we don't know too much about them so we can't say when they went extinct. I do think they'd still be found out in deep periphery worlds. Same with Rifles, Rockets, Rail Guns, etc. I also think this would evolve into a reverse tech travel where tech flows back into the IS. Which actually happens with Rockets and seemingly with Rifles.  Why it took so long...?

I will be honest Rifles have a use, but not in a real defensive military but as those who role is keep our citizens inline.

They're okay defensively against CI, BA, and attackers with lower tech/quality equipment.

[glitterboy2098]

Chemical lasers i can accept going extinct as weaponry, since once solid state lasers show up before the age of war, there isn't much reason to keep them around. most Age of war era vehicles that mount lasers had Fusion powerplants, the need for ICE+laser weapons was more of a late succession wars thing, and by then a heavy and bulky chemical laser wouldn't be much of an advantage even if they still had the tech knowledge to bring them back.
and they'd certainly be much heavier than the clantech versions from the 3060's. the fluff for the chemical lasers makes it clear that the clantech ones benefitted from clan material advancements that allowed them to make the resulting weapons lighter and safer than the historical types, and even with that clan technology the resulting weapons were still just on par with IS succession wars standard lasers, with only a bit less heat to deal with as the offset for their need for ammo. it seems likely that with IS technology, chemical lasers might not have been much of a savings compared to just fitting power amplifiers. (especially since the clantech one's fluff establishes that one of the big improvements they worked out was a better feed system, using self-contained 'shells' of lasing chemicals delivered to the weapon by modified autocannon loading systems. presumably on the older types the highly toxic chemicals were held in large tanks and fed by pipes as needed, like with the real world equivalents such as COIL. which would be a very unsafe situation in combat. one reason why the chemical systems IRL got shelved when solid state systems lasers like the HELIOS started showing promise. )

[Charistoph]

Rifles would have been produced until couldn't compete with Armor protection. For the HRC that would between 2445 and 2470 when BAR8+9  armors became common. After that the LRC is useless on the battlefield and the MRC and HRC can't really compete. They still have uses but they'd be on the way out. Going by IO, it took 400 years from when Rifle became obsolete to go extinct. But the plans would still exist. Even if they didn't New St. Andrews managed to produce them. If an independent periphery world can do that, low tech worlds in the IS should be able to.

No, there's no one with practical knowledge but there's still book knowledge, plans, etc. So they'd experiment some. How quickly the item gets into production depends on how complicated it is. A rocket engine is a lot more complicated than a cannon.

You mean like the book knowledge that no one but ComStar had until the Helm and New Dallas Memory Cores were recovered?

Sure, there's a lot of places that wouldn't have things because they stopped being built a long time ago or war killed of production. That doesn't mean that it isn't possible to bring them back. 

Again, only if you have the R&D capacity in order to bring them back at all.  The Inner Sphere didn't have this between the 2SW and 4SW till the NAIS was created.  Even Terra had stagnated!

If an item is becoming more difficult to obtain, it's natural to try to come up with a replacement. Only we don't see that. Part of that is because the things we're talking about are actually more recent introductions. The other part... Comstar? Other reason?

And the Inner Sphere had better tech to work with during the 3SW.  Why bother trying to produce a worse version of stuff that is ubiquitous?  Especially when the methods and tools for producing that worse stuff are lost?

It would be like trying to produce rifles used in the American Civil War, but you don't even have the historians or reenactors who grog the stuff around to reproduce them, but you're able to manufacture M4s like they're going out of style.

Rifles go extinct between the 1st and 2nd Succession Wars. The date is... odd. Still, with ICE being used to keep combat vehicles in production, and even mechs working, it doesn't take too much imagination to think that some world would bring back lower tech weapons too.

Why?  You've already given a case as to why they wouldn't, and you're ignoring the environment in question as well.

[DevianID]

it would be like trying to produce rifles used in the American Civil War

While I understand the metaphor, I think the issue is that the real game stats are not the divide like that exists with ACW rifles and m4s.

Rocket Launchers, the primitive ones with -1 cluster and higher cost, are still very effective for planes and quick strike hovercraft/vtols, which the IS had a lot of.  Its clear the rocket launchers dont exist for a meta reason, which is that the rocket launchers came after the 3rd succession war was done being written about.

Rifles, specifically the heavy rifle, has enough stats to make it worthwhile to mount compared to an AC5.  So while a Dragon with a Rifle isnt a huge upgrade, it would be powerful enough to be worth it.  But because the rifle rules came out IRL well after the 3rd succession war was done being written about in the lore, it doesnt show up despite the in game stats suggesting it should.

Primitive chemical lasers dont have game stats.  If they DID have game stats, and those stats were useful, then it would be a significant retcon for them to not exist.  If, instead, they have primitive damage modifiers like rifles and are heavier/less ammo per ton like primitive autocannons, they might be bad enough that there is no point to use them, like how the light rifle/cannon works.

[Kit deSummersville]

Watson-Yes

Doyle-No

[RifleMech]

Chemical lasers i can accept going extinct as weaponry, since once solid state lasers show up before the age of war, there isn't much reason to keep them around. most Age of war era vehicles that mount lasers had Fusion powerplants, the need for ICE+laser weapons was more of a late succession wars thing, and by then a heavy and bulky chemical laser wouldn't be much of an advantage even if they still had the tech knowledge to bring them back.
and they'd certainly be much heavier than the clantech versions from the 3060's. the fluff for the chemical lasers makes it clear that the clantech ones benefitted from clan material advancements that allowed them to make the resulting weapons lighter and safer than the historical types, and even with that clan technology the resulting weapons were still just on par with IS succession wars standard lasers, with only a bit less heat to deal with as the offset for their need for ammo. it seems likely that with IS technology, chemical lasers might not have been much of a savings compared to just fitting power amplifiers. (especially since the clantech one's fluff establishes that one of the big improvements they worked out was a better feed system, using self-contained 'shells' of lasing chemicals delivered to the weapon by modified autocannon loading systems. presumably on the older types the highly toxic chemicals were held in large tanks and fed by pipes as needed, like with the real world equivalents such as COIL. which would be a very unsafe situation in combat. one reason why the chemical systems IRL got shelved when solid state systems lasers like the HELIOS started showing promise. )

Where does it say that ancient chemical lasers are heavier than clan versions because the clan versions benefit from advanced materials? The IS has been using chemical shells since at least 2823 and that was on an autocannon. It wouldn't surprise me if it was based on the ancient chemical lasers.

I can see chemical lasers staying in limited use with militias and poorer units as they'd be lighter than having to mount power amplifiers and tons of heat sinks. Granted, I think they'd be mostly found in the deeper periphery but I think they'd still be around.

[RifleMech]

You mean like the book knowledge that no one but ComStar had until the Helm and New Dallas Memory Cores were recovered?

It wasn't just book knowledge that was lost though. It was infrastructure. It takes more infrastructure to make ES than it does a Rifle Cannon.

Again, only if you have the R&D capacity in order to bring them back at all.  The Inner Sphere didn't have this between the 2SW and 4SW till the NAIS was created.  Even Terra had stagnated!

And yet the Taurians introduced the Standard Fission Engine in 2882. If they can improve the Primitive Fission Engine during the 3rd Succession War, why can't they bring back a much lower tech Rifle Cannon? There's also the Free Worlds League introducing the Blazer Cannon in 2812 while the 1st Succession War was still going on. Neither had help from the NAIS.
 

And the Inner Sphere had better tech to work with during the 3SW.  Why bother trying to produce a worse version of stuff that is ubiquitous?  Especially when the methods and tools for producing that worse stuff are lost?

It would be like trying to produce rifles used in the American Civil War, but you don't even have the historians or reenactors who grog the stuff around to reproduce them, but you're able to manufacture M4s like they're going out of style.

Availability and technical capability. Things became harder to obtain during the Succession Wars as there were fewer places that could build them. If they can't buy or build what they need, they'll use something less.

It shouldn't be too difficult for them to build Civil War Era cannons. I would hope they'd go with breach loaders if they're mounting them M4s.

Why?  You've already given a case as to why they wouldn't, and you're ignoring the environment in question as well.

I can see why they'd of gone extinct before they did in canon. I can also see why some planets would bring them back. And I'm not ignoring the environment. If a planet's automotive industry can't build a Tech D Internal Combustion Engine they're not going to close up shop. They'll start building a lower tech ICE. If they can't do that they'll go with Steam or Electric. Sure, they'll need some R&D but they won't need the NAIS to do it. Ford could start mass producing the Model A again and it wouldn't take centuries of R&D to do it. 

[Der Kommissar]

I'd simply like it to be a (canonical) option.  'Oh, so-and-so had to downgrade to a primitive factory because they couldn't source the widget finishing machine any more.'  Particularly for the Periphery  microstatrs and pirates, I think it adds some texture.  We got some movement towards that retroactively out in what is now the Scorpions' stomping ground.

And I'll be surprising or scandalizing no one in opining that rocket pods should never have gone extinct, and that MRMs should be a SW option (though they're not exactly great even in the era of DHS).  Give us some of the ammo that never should've gone extinct, too.  Flechette, frag missiles, incendiary LRMs, all 20th century stuff.  Basic FASCAM, too.  Eh, I'm wandering pretty far from the OP's proposition at this point, so I'll stop rambling.

[Daryk]

I've always been in the camp of RLs never going extinct!  I just figured it didn't bear repeating here (and I had to duck while a certain topic was being discussed).

[idea weenie]

I'd just take the existing Mech sheets with the weapons list and reduce their range, damage, and/or shots per ton.  This avoids the need to add in more weapons and no need to redo the Mech designs as you just change up to 5 numbers on a Mech's record sheet.

Explain it as the technicians had to make do with what was available and could not install hotter/heavier/larger weapons.

This encourages PCs to do political schmoozing where they try to convince their liege lord to accept their AC/3 that has a Long range of 14 hexes and give them an AC/5 that has a Long range of 17 hexes.  Much more fun than just improving their Piloting and Gunnery capabilities.

[Charistoph]

It wasn't just book knowledge that was lost though. It was infrastructure. It takes more infrastructure to make ES than it does a Rifle Cannon.

You're moving the goal posts now.  You asked about the book knowledge, now you're talking about infrastructure as if the book knowledge doesn't matter.

Guess what, if you don't have the book knowledge, the infrastructure can be rather meaningless.  That's part of what the Helm Memory Core did was bring back the book knowledge on how to use the infrastructure they did have left.  As it is, there doesn't seem to be enough infrastructure that created primitive tech to make it worth it in the Inner Sphere.

And yet the Taurians introduced the Standard Fission Engine in 2882. If they can improve the Primitive Fission Engine during the 3rd Succession War, why can't they bring back a much lower tech Rifle Cannon? There's also the Free Worlds League introducing the Blazer Cannon in 2812 while the 1st Succession War was still going on. Neither had help from the NAIS.

Taurians are part of the Periphery, not the Inner Sphere, and an odd duck besides.

The BLazer Cannon was basically strapping 2 Large Lasers together with duct tape, and never actually entered in to any level of production.

Availability and technical capability. Things became harder to obtain during the Succession Wars as there were fewer places that could build them. If they can't buy or build what they need, they'll use something less.

It shouldn't be too difficult for them to build Civil War Era cannons. I would hope they'd go with breach loaders if they're mounting them M4s.

Except they weren't available, and the technical capability was lost.  Autocannons were readily available in comparison to Rifle Cannons, period.

M4s are not comparable to Civil War Cannons.

I can see why they'd of gone extinct before they did in canon. I can also see why some planets would bring them back. And I'm not ignoring the environment. If a planet's automotive industry can't build a Tech D Internal Combustion Engine they're not going to close up shop. They'll start building a lower tech ICE. If they can't do that they'll go with Steam or Electric. Sure, they'll need some R&D but they won't need the NAIS to do it. Ford could start mass producing the Model A again and it wouldn't take centuries of R&D to do it.

I'm not saying that the NAIS, itself, was needed.  I was pointing out that nobody was doing R&D on a major scale until the NAIS was built.

I doubt that Ford could start mass producing the Model A again.  First of all, it would have to be reengineered to meet modern guidelines.  Then it wouldn't be the Model A any more.  Second, no one would buy a Model A unless they are a collector, which wouldn't sell enough to make producing a Model A worth it.

The same thing applies.  No one is going to buy a Rifle Cannon when they can produce or buy an Autocannon.  No one is going to go through the trouble of developing an inferior weapon to the Autocannon (which is already not a top tier weapon group) when it is easier to steal the information on building an Autocannon.

[Daryk]

The Blazer Cannon didn't "enter production", but it was also never LosTech.

[Charistoph]

The Blazer Cannon didn't "enter production", but it was also never LosTech.

And if it never entered production, it is lacking much in that "Development" part of R&D.

[Daryk]

200+ years of "experimental" status is enough R&D for me, but YMMV.

[Charistoph]

200+ years of "experimental" status is enough R&D for me, but YMMV.

It depends on how much work was actually done with it.  If it's only used by 1 Mech per generation, and it spreads more by word of mouth and tinkering than an actual design process... it's more like the "airplanes" of the 19th Century, other than it actually worked.

[Daryk]

My head canon is that it technically worked fine, but no one could make a convincing argument to make them instead of more Large Lasers.  Hence my "Blazer Cannon Manifesto" thread... ;)

[SteelRaven]

The hatchet wasn't in production until the Hatchetman but I really doubt attaching a huge chunk of metal on to a mechs swinging arm was a engineering achievement. It just wasn't worth line production until it was.

The Blazer was a experiment with limited resources that was ultimately overshadowed by weapons redeveloped with the helm core. I'm sure anyone with the resources could make a Blazer, just a question of if they want to.

Likewise with other primitive weapons, those are resources you could use towards other proven weapon systems within your means.

I personally think more one shot weapons would be interesting for the more desperate but that would be for the fan design section. One shot weapons are a waste of tonnage unless you are truly desperate for whatever offensive punch you can muster. Strapping a bunch of rockets to a machine with only hopes and dreams that it will do more damage to the other guy than what they may do in return is at the very least cinematic.

[Daryk]

One shot weapons remain a waste of tonnage if you allow Rocket Launchers.  They're better in every way.

[rebs]

Hence my "Blazer Cannon Manifesto" thread... ;)

Duct Tape was invented by an Illinois mom named Vesta Stoudt who wanted to save soldiers’ lives in World War II.

Little did she know it would become weaponized by BattleTech fans to produce the blazer. 

[Daryk]

It's been weaponized by many others too! :D

[rebs]

The Pentagon perfected it.  Only $1000 per roll! 

[Dave Talley]

Long before hatchets became official, you know there were techs taking girders and attempting to reinforce them some so the boys had a club available as they left the drop shop, should be able to carry/drag one handed, would of course need both hands to swing