Author Topic: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip  (Read 1067 times)

Daemion

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Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« on: 18 November 2024, 17:36:49 »
I hope Devian doesn't mind, but I'm gonna start with this quote from the Mapping a DropShip thread:

Now, its totally not a thing, but how cool would it be to have the 'weapon hardpoint' damage model from mw5 clans for dropships.  So like, shooting the superstructure and putting holes in the space ship is terrible for the health of the crew and ship and all, but if you want to silence the guns you gotta individually shoot the weapon mount turrets off, with their own armor and to hit rolls.  They did it for the game to make dropship fights more interactive then 'cross hairs on egg, shoot until it changes shape'. 

I think it would be cool to have 6 different weapon pod turrets on a dropship instead of 6 indiscrete location arcs, with more detailed stats and turret rules from vehicles or mobile structure rule sets for the weapons.

He's not alone in this. 

In fact, we did get a bit of precedent with the Aurora DropShip model for MechWarrior Dark Age.  As an interactive terrain feature, it had its weapon turrets which could be damaged and destroyed.  I'm not sure on whether there were other dials which could be targeted, but the idea that you could defang the DropShip on the ground for capture has been very appealing to me for quite some time.

Sadly, a general familiarity of the Aero Rules will show that unless liberties are taken with some application of ground rules, one is left with the game effect of having to batter a substantial amount of armor into ineffectiveness, then run the chance of breaking the egg that is a Union, for example, well before any critical effects happen to that effect.

To me, that's not very fun.

And, this has left me wondering what way would I want to have a DropShip take damage that would satisfy my immersion AND enjoyment at the same time?

If we were to try to save Aero, even if it's for our own tables, why not start with the Transportation Workhorse of the Inner Sphere - the DropShip?

I figure we could start with the ubiquitous Union company carrier. 

I'll start off with showing what we currently have to work with.  See attached.

They turned a very LARGE ship into something akin to a mere battle tank with only four (4) hit locations.  We already have that with Aerospace Fighters.  You would think something as big as a DropShip would warrent more than Aerospace fighter treatment.

So, next I will go into some extra details we might want to work with to expand on the DropShip damage-taking potential
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Daemion

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #1 on: 18 November 2024, 18:04:00 »
First order of business is the number of locations!  For one, all that armor can be a slog to get past even with the potential for a nat 12 TAC or overcoming the Damage Threshold.  Very few weapons can do that at standard damage scale, though, and very few ASFs are equipped with those weapons.  It's almost like there should be some wing-mounted missiles capable of doing so.  [/suggestive]

Would a simple breakdown of the locations into more be enough?  Or would we want to go so far as to allow any trackable crit to be targeted in ways other than randomly, and have them be armored?  After all, a BattleMech has 8 different locations, 3 of which have two armor values based on direction of attack.  And it seems the BattleMech is arguably one of the most fun units to Play in BattleTech. 

Personally, I'm thinking 'Yes and yes'.

But, that then brings up the question: How do we distribute that protection, then?  And do we take any consideration for the armor values we see in the old layout, specifically the Damage thresholds?

If you work out the armor pips on the sheet, a Union carries only 40 tons of armor.

By the weapons bays alone, we could expand the hit locations to six due to fore- and aft- sides, but I thik that can be expanded further.

However, we have 10 items that can suffer a critical hit effect according to the sheet in addition to the different weapons bays, and which can be verified if you do some cross referencing with the DropShip Hit Location Tables in TW or AT2.  (Practically cut and pasted.)

Would dividing 640 points of armor across 16 items be enough?  Should any consideration be given for the overall hull in general, or can that be considered part of the 'Internal Structure' of the DS?

I'll show some of the directions I've been taking this mental exercise here in a bit, but feel free to discuss.  I'm curious to see what other people think. 




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Daemion

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #2 on: 18 November 2024, 19:14:37 »
One of the directions I was looking, and am still looking at, was giving the Union a critical hit table, and expanding the locations to about 14 using the Spheroid DropShip map  template as an inspiration. 

Since I don't have that template in a digital format to attach, I'll put up a simple graphic I worked up.  It's mostly to illustrate three different planes that can be looked at (the colored lines) when trying to apply the hex grid vertically, which I'll also attach.

The reason I wanted to expand the hexagon grid in a 3D direction is a matter of simplification. 

It has been suggest that one could take the elevations from the ground game, and apply them instead, treating it much like the giant mobile home it's supposed to be.  But that started giving me the glassy-eyes when thinking of the complications.  For one, a Union is close to 80 meters tall, which makes it 13 elevations. (6 meters per making for 78 meters high.)  And, that's at the nose, or central hex.  That slopes with the outer 6 hexes, though probably not by much, so 12 or 11 for those?   I don't think there's a record sheet style that will work with that other than the mapped damage grid of Renegade Legion's games.

Whereas a simple application of the 7-hex structure to the vertical and aligned with the horizontal would make for something much more manageable, and I could then come up with a simple hit-location table based on facing.  Not sure if I have that assembled for viewing, but I know I've worked it out already.

I think you should be able to work out how it maps out if you look at my attached custom Record Sheet PDF. 

1 nose and 1 aft location, as well as 3 each of Aft-Left, Aft-Right, Fore-Left, and Fore Right.  Makes for a total of 14 locations.

In the Mapping of a Union thread, we learned that most art has the Union completely hollow at the center, so there's no hidden 15th location.

So, that left me wondering how to apply the armor.  I really am interested in at least armoring the weapons bays individually, and giving the larger locations an 'effective' thickness via the original Damage Thresholds which are currently canon. 


But, that's not all! 

Individual weapons can be knocked out on a Mech and tank and ASF.  I think that weapon base, whether they're all in a turret blister or somehow spread across the ship, would still be compartmentalized enough that you can knock out one weapon in a bay without completely wrecking the rest, as well as risk an ammo explosion.  And, then there's the notion of a crewman being present to man that bay, kinda like the quad-turrets on the Falcon in Stellar Conflict.

In addition, one of the things I've been wanting to do is expand the crew results to something more entertaining.  A nebulous crew stat doesn't seem to be as entertaining as what you get with the Pilot of a BattleMech or Aerospace fighter.  (I'm willing to extend this to BA and Vehicle crews, too.  But, I'm one who doesn't mind running smaller team games and then linking them on a larger scene to get a bigger battle, compared to trying to cram the Whole regiment and the kitchen sink and my cat on one map and run it all.)  Giving key bridge personnel their own pilot damage track would be interesting, as well as other crew members manning key locations, like damage control in the engine compartment or the weapons bays.

So, one of the things I was hoping to get answered is where the crew of a Union would be in combat or when grounded.



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Daemion

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #3 on: 18 November 2024, 19:25:44 »
So if you were simply to armor the crit items, we're looking at 16.  That's kinda convenient, since you could just take the armor tonnage as the points of armor per item if you were to distribute things evenly.  (16 points per ton.)

However, things wouldn't be equally armored, and there are a couple complications.  While it only takes one damage landing gear to cause problem with landing/take-off, the Union shows four in the art, so that would be 3 potential extra items to show. Granted, 40 points over 16 to 19 or 20 would be much more interesting than 4 big blocks of armor.

14 is much more manageable than 20, and I'm thinking some sort of even distribution would be in order.  Leaving the nose armored at 180 and the aft at 90 while the others all get 30 doesn't feel right.

Again.  Thoughts?

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DevianID

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #4 on: 20 November 2024, 01:58:41 »
So looking at the crit chart, if we removed the hit location table entirely and just had each item as its own thing, AKA each critable item is a seperate red Box when looking at the record sheet the same as in MW5 clans, we would have the following 'Red Boxes'.
  The indented ones are front or aft boxes not visible when the dropship is on the ground.

Nose
Weapon 1
FCS 2
Sensors 3
   Crew 4
   Avionics 5
   Control 6
   KF Boom 7
Side
Thruster 8 f
Cargo 9
Weapon 10
Door 11 a
Thruster 8b f
Aft
Avionics 12
Engine 13
Weapon 14
   Life Support 15
   Control 16
   Docking Collar 17
   Gear 18
   Fuel 19

There is 2 thruster locations on the side, the art shows 6 total, so I think making the total locations 20, with 2 different hittable thrusters, would make for nice synergy.  Forgot there is 5 more locations on the opposite side.  20 25 divides nice and easy.

So if the dropship has 600 points of armor, each 'Red Box' would have 30 24 armor, and 11 structure (the SI).  So to disable the dropships guns on the right side, youd need to shoot off 3 weapon sections.

Im on the fence to give the dropship's subsystems the -4 immobile bonus.  On one hand the dropship isnt moving, on the other hand shooting something like a cockpit has a big penalty for making called shots.  I think managing hit bonuses would be playtesting, but I know a large complaint about using dropships on the ground map currently is that the immobile bonus makes them too easy to damage, and in MW5 clans they were boss fights, not easy to damage things.
« Last Edit: 20 November 2024, 02:19:39 by DevianID »

DevianID

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #5 on: 20 November 2024, 02:34:49 »
Another option, using the dropship where each bay is a separate item, would provide many more weapons to shoot off, which is more similar to how it works in MW5 where only weapon areas are hit, but there is many more then 3-4 of them.

If going by bay, there are 4 side upper and 1 side lower bays that a grounded dropship can shoot at mechs, for a total of 10 things to crit off.  I like this approach, because in the core game rules a weapon crit disables on bay, and the union has 2 laser bays, 1 LR missile, ppc, and ac bay per side.

With 10 bays, plus another 5 with nose and aft, maybe we can borrow the threshold for the armor value.  So, each bay is targeted individually, and has 18 armor (which is the side threshold if I have the Union type right), plus 11 structure.  This would mean you need to shoot off 5 locations to clear the right side of weapons, which would take a max of 29*5 damage, though when you hit structure id say you can roll an 8+ to disable it without destroying it.  29*5=145, so its still a little less then just coring the egg out, but after all all you are doing is trying to crit all the weapons off, not core the dropship.

I like this approach, because threshold is already something we track, and applying the threshold as armor for the important crit-able locations feels in line with MW5 and knocking off weapons.  Needing to knock off 10 weapons from the dropship, MW5 style, also forces you to circle the dropship, which is more engaging then just shooting the egg from far away until it changes shape, which is what happens now.  It also reminds me of space games, where you target individual locations to cripple ships.  Nexus the Jupiter incident comes to mind.

I think if we remove the -4 immobile bonus when targeting individual weapon bays, the lower health balances with the hard to hit small locations, and makes disabling a dropship more interesting/boss fight appropriate.  Also, I want to say in the first Gray Death book, when Graysons dad was fighting the weaponized Danias dropship, that's how he fought it--by targeting the weapon blisters.

Daemion

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #6 on: 20 November 2024, 03:16:30 »
I like this approach, because threshold is already something we track, and applying the threshold as armor for the important crit-able locations feels in line with MW5 and knocking off weapons.  Needing to knock off 10 weapons from the dropship, MW5 style, also forces you to circle the dropship, which is more engaging then just shooting the egg from far away until it changes shape, which is what happens now.  It also reminds me of space games, where you target individual locations to cripple ships.  Nexus the Jupiter incident comes to mind.

Empire at War comes to mind for me.

RE: The immobile bonus: I think it would only apply on the ground.  However, we can always use the aimed shots at immobile targets rules in completion, requiring that 6, 7, and 8 roll to actually score the hit.  However, the miss effect would not drift clear across the ship.  This is why a crit table would come in handy, because you could just roll on the appropriate location to find what actually got hit.  Or!  If you have things listed so that certain things are considered adjacent, you could have a location drift much like is done with BattleMechs. The crit items would be treated as individual locations, after all, and not mere critical hit items.

When the dropper is airborne/spaceborne, you can target a location, but the -4 bonus is ignored, because the ship is no longer immobile.  However, she's really big, so I don't see the need to go with the TarCom penalties for targeted shots.  A bit much, if you ask me.

Also, we should probably consider that there are some items that can't be attacked from certain directions while a Dropper is grounded.  A BattleMech on the ground is not going to be able to expect to hit nose items.  You're looking at oblique angles.  Conversely, the Nose Bays (Nor aft bays), shouldn't be able to target ground targets.  It could target ASF units that are flying higher than nape of the earth, (Level 0, which is 50m tall) and maybe certain vehicles that are at an elevation that is over the dropper's height in elevation levels in relation to the Dropper's occupied elevation. 

A union is 78 meters high.  I'm assuming that's the nose height from the ground.  That's 13 elevation levels on the ground map.

I'll play around with armor and structure based on the critical hit items as hit locations, and make a sheet out of it.

 



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Daemion

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #7 on: 20 November 2024, 03:21:56 »
Also, while I like using SI as the basis for IS for items, especially weapons bays, I think it should serve a double purpose.

I like how in Monsters in the Sky, each crit location that was destroyed could potentially break the keel.  I'm thinking that every time a full item location gets destroyed, a larger vessel SI takes a hit, and an SI check is made against the remaining value.  If you beat the number, the vessel collapses from the damage.

Secondly, I'm really fond of the idea of the bays being targeted individually, but each weapon is critted separately.  You have to destroy all eleven IS for the bay to knock out all weapons.  Until you do, you can knock out a few, or even hit the ammo and blow it entirely. 

Of course, if you do an ammo explosion, I think the ammo should be divided by bays on the ship instead of having a large single pool.  The explosion would be isolated to the Bay in question.  The others would be uneffected. 
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DevianID

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #8 on: 20 November 2024, 03:59:31 »
Yeah I dont think the rules track any explosive components currently, so any ammo/gauss hits shouldnt be catastrophic.

I like the idea of each destroyed location checking for SI damage.  Thats a fun concept, like you knocked out some weapon bays trying to disable the ship, but dinged up the superstructure in the process... enough damage and the ship collapses, and you cant salvage it.  What about each destroyed item, which maps to a critical hit, making a 50/50 roll to see if it causes 1 SI damage?  Since 1 SI is normally 2 damage, it means youd expect to need to destroy 22 locations (cause 22 crits in normal aerospace language) to completely collapse the dropship to 0 SI, but you might get there after destroying only 11 locations.  Id make gauss and ammo explosions just auto cause a structure hit, no roll needed, to make it matter but not super crippling.

For vessel collapse before 0 SI, not sure what the numbers would need to be.  On something like a Union with 11 SI its super relevant, and we dont want it to fall apart too fast... certainly not faster then the current rules.  Perhaps if the roll was on a 1d6, so on something like a union youd only be in danger once you were below half SI, at 5 SI, where you might roll a 6 and destroy the dropship early.

It also makes rolling for crits matter versus the targeted locations IS, but its easy to track.  So if targeting the 2 mlas + large laser bay and you hit the structure for 2 damage, if you roll a 10-11 and score 2 crits, you take out 2 of the 3 lasers in that location.  If its the LRM bay, you can crit the 2 LRMs or the LRM ammo, and hitting the ammo would destroy the bay regardless of internal structure remaining, and also ding the SI for one point without needing the 50/50 roll.

So with that take, the dropship record sheet would be a list of the current crits the dropship could take.  So 3 sensors, cause you can crit the sensors 3 times, 4 thrusters per side, cause you can cause 4 crits to the thrusters before they cant be crit any more, 15 weapon bays, cause each weapon crit maps to a specific weapon bay and the Union has 15, 3 per Avionics, 3 CIC, 6 Crew, 3 cargo and 3 bay slots (1 slot per 5 SI with how damage SI% works feels right), 6 engine hits, 1 hit per door, ect.
« Last Edit: 20 November 2024, 04:09:12 by DevianID »

mechasaurus

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #9 on: 20 November 2024, 14:16:19 »
Sweet jumpin's!  You had that one in the chamber!  :grin:

A lot to digest, but first small comment: I've already expressed my opinion on where the crew is during action.  Nine on the bridge (supported by fluff) and five rovers, either engineering, or the EVA locker, or elsewhere.

On the ground, it's substantially different based on what they're doing.  If they're straight fighting, most would be the same (and probably prepping for liftoff).  If they were caught unawares, they might be doing any of their secondary duties... cooking, loading cargo, maintenance...

Mechanis

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #10 on: 02 December 2024, 12:01:40 »
I think with this the way you want to go is "different rules for ground and Aero" because if you make DropShips all durable you then have to also rewrite all the *other* Large Craft to keep the Space combat paradigm of "WarShips=Mechs, DropShips=Vees, ASF=Infantry" that is the overall theme there. The main way to "fix" the Large Craft durability issues is mostly to can unitary Structural Integrity and actually give them proper hit locations that can be destroyed separately; At most you should go from 4 to 6 locations so you can have the hit locations matching the weapon slots.
(Which, as a coincidence, furthers the above paradigm as WarShips would then have 8 locations; exactly the same number as a BattleMech!)

Edit: the main issue you really run into with this kind of thing is the hilariously tiny armor massess on most canonical DropShips mean they barely have enough points as it is most of the time, further diluting how much armor they get is A Problem™. We're already supposed to believe they're getting away with a literal sheet of magic construction paper for armor, making it worse is not a good idea - unless you're willing to just can all the official designs as written and rebuild the things with actual armor (and, y'know, all the other stuff they need to actually work, like quarters, spare parts, reasonable amounts of fuel, crew supplies, etc)
« Last Edit: 02 December 2024, 12:10:21 by Mechanis »

Daemion

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #11 on: 03 December 2024, 23:03:00 »
Well, I'm personally willing to go as far as scrap the whole thing and start with the one thing that would be in common: Art and Fluff. 

So, by that, I mean that a Union can carry a company of Mechs and a pair of fighters and is a huge metal sphere with four landing struts.  A Leopard is bigger than a space shuttle, but not by much, and can carry 4 mechs and a pair of ASFs.  You hopefully get the idea.

Beyond that, I'm willing to look at opening things up for modification.

And, I'm also willing to give up on the idea of Warships as BattleMechs of Space, and make them mobile, multi-hex structures in space.  They're that big, anyway.  We don't have to stick with the 'BattleMech equivalent' paradigm for anything.  Because, I think the WarShips should probably be working with multiple locations well beyond 8, just like dropships.  But, their locations will probably be broken down into sugdivisions of what amounts to a map on BT ground level first, and then go from there.

Because, that's what we're looking at for raw differences in scale.  A BattleMech, with 8 different locations is 2 elevations tall, and doesn't fill a full ground hex.  A DropShip is multiple hexes in girth and at least double that number in elevations.  From there, you get to Warships and Jumpships which generally range from 2 to 3 low altitude ground hexes in length and maybe width. 

By that metric, if a WarShip is the BattleMech, then the Dropship is the lowly infantryman in comparison, and a Mech is equivalent to the figurine that we play with on the tabletop.  Warships should function at a different scale.  They kinda do, but I don't think that's enough of a change.  Dropships and ASFs should probably be functioning at a different scale to ground as well. 

So, yeah. Might be easier to scrap and start over.  But, I do want to at least work with some of the things we got from the older iterations.
It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

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Daemion

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #12 on: 04 December 2024, 13:34:33 »
Okay.  I had to check.  Apparently a Leopard would be about 2x the size of the classic NASA Space Shuttle, which is 37 meters long. 

Edit: And it had a payload capacity of 29 tons.  With a dimension of 4.6 x 18.3m area.  Presumably also 4.6 meters high, though rounded off.

« Last Edit: 04 December 2024, 13:37:16 by Daemion »
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Mechanis

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #13 on: 04 December 2024, 18:59:45 »
Well, I'm personally willing to go as far as scrap the whole thing and start with the one thing that would be in common: Art and Fluff. 

So, by that, I mean that a Union can carry a company of Mechs and a pair of fighters and is a huge metal sphere with four landing struts.  A Leopard is bigger than a space shuttle, but not by much, and can carry 4 mechs and a pair of ASFs.  You hopefully get the idea.

Beyond that, I'm willing to look at opening things up for modification.

And, I'm also willing to give up on the idea of Warships as BattleMechs of Space, and make them mobile, multi-hex structures in space.  They're that big, anyway.  We don't have to stick with the 'BattleMech equivalent' paradigm for anything.  Because, I think the WarShips should probably be working with multiple locations well beyond 8, just like dropships.  But, their locations will probably be broken down into sugdivisions of what amounts to a map on BT ground level first, and then go from there.

Because, that's what we're looking at for raw differences in scale.  A BattleMech, with 8 different locations is 2 elevations tall, and doesn't fill a full ground hex.  A DropShip is multiple hexes in girth and at least double that number in elevations.  From there, you get to Warships and Jumpships which generally range from 2 to 3 low altitude ground hexes in length and maybe width. 

By that metric, if a WarShip is the BattleMech, then the Dropship is the lowly infantryman in comparison, and a Mech is equivalent to the figurine that we play with on the tabletop.  Warships should function at a different scale.  They kinda do, but I don't think that's enough of a change.  Dropships and ASFs should probably be functioning at a different scale to ground as well. 

So, yeah. Might be easier to scrap and start over.  But, I do want to at least work with some of the things we got from the older iterations.
Oh well yeah if you're willing to just can the official published stats things get  much easier. It does mean accepting a double-to-quadruple increase in mass; but that's actually a good thing as it goes a long way towards mitigating Weberfoam Syndrome when one starts comparing mass to volume; it means you can put real Quarters in not just for the necessary bay personnel but all the support personnel (AsTechs especially but all sorts of other things too), it means you can set all the Spheroids to 50 SI minimum and the Aerodynes to 25 SI minimum (that's 10% their mass, a value chosen by no means because literally almost everything else uses it, /s) which further allows you to slap on a semi-reasonable amount of armor, it means you can bring the necessary Spares, Supplies and Fuel to operate the ship for longer than a day or three, it means you can add enough cargo to support at least a little fighting out of organic resources... You can solve so many problems with DropShips in terms of stats vs lore just with that, it's absurd.


The big thing with the Space scale is that anything that takes up more than 1 hex is either a planet (or at least planetoid) or reasonably qualifies for the term "Megastructure" - a space hex is 18 kilometers of volume.
Because well,
Quote from: The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Space is big.
You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is.
I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space.

Mechanis

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #14 on: 04 December 2024, 19:06:06 »
One thing I like as a "basic guide" is giving a ship a cargo bay that is the mass of the canonical version in some manner; because then one can explain the"official" designs as being confusion similar to modern "X ton Trucks" being able to carry X tons, not themselves massing ten tons. So when we say a Leopard, for example, is a "1900 ton DropShip", we mean it can carry 1900 tons of Stuff, not that the ship is 1900 tons total.

Edit: Though the Leopard is probably a bad example simply because its stated dimensions are Very Silly with what we see them doing in lore; the PGI concept art is probably closer to "reality" (though PGI mechs are also like 2-3 times as big as they ought to be, like most of the video game depictions.) Maybe at some point when I have some real time and regular access to the right software I can block out an approximate of what a Leopard should have in it based on lore performance & the game rules but the usual consensus when you start doing that is that you end up not being able to fit everything into the canonical volume without some serious hand-waving about the size fraction of things like hydrogen tankrage and just Problems™ in general. Best to start with known performance in lore and work backwards from there.
« Last Edit: 04 December 2024, 19:19:30 by Mechanis »

Daemion

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #15 on: 06 December 2024, 19:39:08 »
But, I like the concept.  A Union is a 3500 ton DropShip that clocks in at say 5000 tons dry. 

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Mechanis

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #16 on: 06 December 2024, 23:11:07 »
But, I like the concept.  A Union is a 3500 ton DropShip that clocks in at say 5000 tons dry.

Hahaha no
Try more like 10000+ tons
You're talking about 108 Personnel *just* for the MechWarriors and BattleMech maintenance teams. 126 with the two ASF included. Even if you stick the lot of them in Steerage you're talking about 756 tons for the necessary quarters and supplies; if you don't hate people (and do hate failing Morale checks) and use regular crew quarters that's 1008 tons right there, between Quarters and Crew Supplies.

As I've mentioned in the past, getting everything a DropShip needs to do what we see them doing in lore requires that you start by flat out doubling the mass, and depending on how fighty you want them to be can require as much as quadruple the canon mass values.

Turns out, you need a huge amount of mass to move army units around!
At least if you, you know, actually expect them to have to fight immediately after landing, and not "after 3-6 weeks of recovery, unloading, recruiting and training time."

Mechanis

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #17 on: 07 December 2024, 00:29:22 »
For example, this is the kind of thing you have to get to for a Union to be largely functional; and I would consider this design somewhat light on weapons, in exchange for being a little heavy on armor (a company is an awful lot of metal, you don't want that getting shot down easily) :
Code: [Select]
   
 Union Example 
 ~3020s IS Spheroid DropShip

Class: Union Example 
Technology Base: Inner Sphere / 3020s
Vessel Type: Spheroid DropShip
Mass: 10,500 tons
Power Plant: Star League V250 Standard Fusion
Safe Thrust: 1.5 Gravities
Maximum Thrust: 2.5 Gravities
Armor Type: Various Standard
Armament:
  9  Various Autocannon/5
 12 Various Machine Gun
 12 Various LRM 20
  7 Various PPC
 10 Various Large Laser
 19 Various Medium Laser

Manufacturer: Various
 Location: Various
Communications System: Various
Targeting and Tracking System: Various

   
----------------------------------------------------------------
Model: Standard 
Mass: 10500 tons

Equipment:                                                  Mass
Engine: Fusion Engine                                    2047.50
Power Plant, Drive & Control:                            2047.50
   Safe Thrust:      3
   Maximum Thrust:   5
Heat Sinks: 288 Single                                    171.00
Structural Integrity: 60 pts                             1260.00
Armor: 3680 pts Standard                                  215.00

                              Armor Points
                     Front:       920
           Left/Right Side:     920/920
                      Rear:       920

Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters     79.00
Food & Water (200.0 days supply)                          180.00
Spare Parts (1.0 percent)                                 105.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps (30000.0 Points)                       1020.00
Escape Pods: 30                                           210.00
Cargo Bays:
 Bay 1 (2 doors):
      2 ASF Bay                                           300.00
 Bay 2 (4 doors):
      12 BattleMech Bay                                  1800.00
 Bay 3 (2 doors):
      Standard Cargo Bay                                 1500.00
Crew:
 12 Crew                                                   84.00
 12 Gunners                                                84.00
 4 Officers                                                40.00
 12 MechWarriors                                           84.00
 2 Aerospace Fighter Pilots                                14.00
 14 Techs                                                  98.00
 84 AsTechs                                               588.00
 5 Spare Officer Quarters                                  50.00
 7 Spare Crew Quarters                                     49.00
 28 Spare Steerage Quarters                               140.00
 
Weapons and Equipment     Loc    SRV   MRV   LRV   ERV   Heat  Ammo  Mass
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
3  PPC                    Nose   30    30     0     0     30         21.00
3  Medium Laser           Nose   15     0     0     0      9          3.00
3  Autocannon/5           Nose   15    15     0     0      3    60   27.00
3  LRM 20                 Nose   36    36    36     0     18    60   40.00
2  PPC                    FLef   20    20     0     0     20         14.00
2  PPC                    FRig   20    20     0     0     20         14.00
2  Large Laser            FLef   16    16     0     0     16         10.00
2  Large Laser            FRig   16    16     0     0     16         10.00
3  Autocannon/5           FLef   15    15     0     0      3    60   27.00
3  Autocannon/5           FRig   15    15     0     0      3    60   27.00
2  Medium Laser           FLef   10     0     0     0      6          2.00
2  Medium Laser           FRig   10     0     0     0      6          2.00
3  LRM 20                 FLef   36    36    36     0     18    60   40.00
3  LRM 20                 FRig   36    36    36     0     18    60   40.00
2  Large Laser            ALef   16    16     0     0     16         10.00
2  Large Laser            ARig   16    16     0     0     16         20.00
6  Machine Gun            ALef   12     0     0     0      0   400    5.00
6  Machine Gun            ARig   12     0     0     0      0   400    5.00
4  Medium Laser           ALef   20     0     0     0     12          4.00
4  Medium Laser           ARig   20     0     0     0     12          4.00
2  Large Laser            Aft    16    16     0     0     16         10.00
4  Medium Laser           Aft    20     0     0     0     12          4.00
3  LRM 20                 Aft    36    36    36     0     18    60   40.00
1  Look-Down Radar        Aft    --    --    --    --      0          5.00
 →  1 Infrared Imager           --    --    --    --                 5.00
 →  1 Hi-Res Imager             --    --    --    --                 2.50
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Battle Value: 13768 
Note that this:
  • Carries all necessary AsTechs so you can actually prep units before you land, (Canonical DropShips all have to unload their units as cargo and then prep them in "literally an open field" conditions by strict RAW  :headbang: )
  • Has all personnel in actual Quarters so you aren't eating an entire order of magnitude more supplies,
  • Carries enough fuel to actually operate for reasonable amounts of time (specifically 6 and a bit days at 1.5 gs, so a good week at the more leasurely 1g that is the usual cruise speed),
  • Has spare quarters enough for a few noncombat officers (quartermaster, etc) and optional infantry platoon for security,
  • has all the necessary Spare Parts and Crew Supplies to operate for 200 days without resupply when at full establishment,
  • carries enough cargo it can support a small number (3-4) of engagements out of its own supplies (IE, enough to secure the immediate landing zone so you can bring a cargo dropper in),
  • Has a full spread of sat imagers because "Golly gee, I sure do love getting ambushed right in the LZ!" Is a thing said by literally nobody ever (at least without extreme sarcasm),
  • actually carries enough heat sinks to fire everything it has simultaneously because that's a trivial expense for Large Craft and the fact that basically not one of the canon ones can is basically criminal,
  • Has an average density actually higher than air.
« Last Edit: 07 December 2024, 00:36:03 by Mechanis »

Daryk

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #18 on: 07 December 2024, 07:31:19 »
I think 200 days of consumables is serious gold plating.  The reason I find bays acceptable is because the breakeven point between them and actual quarters is around 100 days, and DropShips can draw consumables from JumpShips for long journeys.  The classic 'mech carriers are landing craft built to be part of a much larger fleet that have been pressed into roles they weren't designed for.  And it seems we don't have actual designs for them under the current rule set.  I suspect a "corrected" Union will come in under 5,000 tons, with proper crew quarters for the crew and bay quarters for everyone else.

Mechanis

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #19 on: 07 December 2024, 12:09:24 »
I think 200 days of consumables is serious gold plating.  The reason I find bays acceptable is because the breakeven point between them and actual quarters is around 100 days, and DropShips can draw consumables from JumpShips for long journeys.  The classic 'mech carriers are landing craft built to be part of a much larger fleet that have been pressed into roles they weren't designed for.  And it seems we don't have actual designs for them under the current rule set.  I suspect a "corrected" Union will come in under 5,000 tons, with proper crew quarters for the crew and bay quarters for everyone else.
Dude. Full quarters are literally ten times - that is 1000%, more efficient. Budgetary reasons alone demand full quarters, let alone logistical reasons, let alone morale effects. And The "They can just resupply from JumpShips" argument is baloney - JumpShips barely have enough room to carry supplies for their own crews, let alone anybody else; and canonically rely on the DropShips to provide themselves resupply. You also have to add a shedload of quarters anyway, as the stock transport bays don't account for the necessary AsTechs to get anything done in sane amounts of time, and frankly, we're being very generous in assuming a single tech team per vehicle is sufficient - realistically, it would be more like three.

The simple fact of the matter is that attempting to use the bay quarters is penny wise but pound foolish; you lower the up front price somewhat but then pay for ten times the per person operating cost.
Basically, unless you both add 6 to the Bay Personnel of basically everything, and state that they're at least half as efficient as Steerage Quarters if not outright equivalent, they make no sense from an economic, logistical or unit morale perspective.
If anything, I would expect Star League era designs to be putting everyone into officer quarters, because the SLDF was very much a Conspicuous Consumption project basically right from the start. But that actually would be extravagant, so I went with Crew Quarters.

And from a lore perspective, it also greatly alleviates the density problem, because unless significant portions of a DropShip's structure are comprised of aerogel (which granted isn't completely improbable, the stuff is an amazing thermal insulator and that is something a ship that expects to make hundreds thousands of reentries over its service life would care about,) you end up with average density values that make no sense. Even 10000ish tons is probably still too light for the stated dimensions, but you don't need more than that to get everything you need into it and you have to draw the line somewhere.


Edit: also, 200 days of consumables is the "at full establishment and with only the as designed for passenger count", neither of which are necessarily the case at any given time, and moreover amounts to all of 1 ton per person and 180 tons besides. It's less than two percent of the unit's total mass; even accounting for the necessary Quarters you're still talking about less than ten percent of the mass here.
Bay Quarters just. They do. Not. Make. Sense. Not economically, not logistically, and not for force readiness and morale. You do not want to be paying for ten times the supplies, which must be sourced and transported with the unit; you do not want to have to spend a week or three recovering from the poor conditions when you get to your destination before your force is combat ready.

And from a further lore perspective, the kind of things that the extra supply mass is supposed to be representing just aren't reflected in the "on screen" appearances of DropShips. We never see people bitching about temporary hygiene and waste reclimation facilities, or fretting over running out of water or air, or anything like that. And we do see DropShips transporting staff officers and dependants-both of passengers and crew-regularly and without issues, which strongly suggests that there are spare quarters integrated into the design for such purposes; we see people griping about notoriously small or poor quarters, but not ever implying that said quarters don't exist.

And finally, I don't think any sane military would accept "literally camping in a cargo bay" as the standard mode of transportation, for literally months at a time, of their very expensive pilots and slightly less expensive but still not exactly trivial tank crews; and even for Infantry I tend to handwave putting them in Steerage Quarters as being a combined Barracks for esprit de corps reasons.


Now, I will say that there is a place for Bay Quarters or something like them: Pre-KF boom DropShuttles. For those, bay quarters make sense; you aren't going to be in a DropShuttle for more than a few hours, so having long term habitation isn't necessary; Small Craft built as light landers are similar.
But, we somewhat digress from the point here. The point is, if we are discarding the canonical designs, we need to discard the canonical designs, and work backwards from "this is what they can do in lore, how do we make a ship that can do those things." Halfassing it by trying to cram things into the low end mass range used in canon just results in ships that still don't match their lore performance even if they are significantly more functional. That design (and several others like it) are the results of me starting from a place of "None of the canon stats exist and we are putting statistics on this for the first time. Here's our list of lore feats, we need the ship to be able to accomplish them (at least with good rolls and or poor ones for the enemy); what do we need for that."
« Last Edit: 07 December 2024, 12:46:49 by Mechanis »

Daryk

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #20 on: 07 December 2024, 13:09:09 »
200 days is over six months.  How many DropShips deploy out of atmosphere for that long?  Even three months is on the long end of most deployments from planet to planet.  Most planets (even ones without much in the way of infrastructure) will have air and water available practically for free, and that's the majority of the weight of "consumables".  Food is a kilo or so per day per person.  Now, civilian ships, that DO spend most of their time underway (or they go broke) make sense for actual quarters.  Exploratory missions also need quarters.  Raids do not.  Ships moving troops around from planet to planet don't either.  Sure, if you're moving from one end of the Inner Sphere to the other, quarters are in order.  But for the things most games are based around, it's all short hops.

Mechanis

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #21 on: 07 December 2024, 18:16:57 »
200 days is over six months.  How many DropShips deploy out of atmosphere for that long?  Even three months is on the long end of most deployments from planet to planet.  Most planets (even ones without much in the way of infrastructure) will have air and water available practically for free, and that's the majority of the weight of "consumables".  Food is a kilo or so per day per person.  Now, civilian ships, that DO spend most of their time underway (or they go broke) make sense for actual quarters.  Exploratory missions also need quarters.  Raids do not.  Ships moving troops around from planet to planet don't either.  Sure, if you're moving from one end of the Inner Sphere to the other, quarters are in order.  But for the things most games are based around, it's all short hops.
.... You have clearly never played the game at the level where JumpShip logistics come in to things. Six months is a two month safety buffer for going from Terra to the edge of the Inner Sphere if you have perfectly average charge times and your ship never suffers an engineering casualty and you are taking a least-time course along established routes.
Travel in BattleTech takes months. you can easily be hanging off a JumpShip for the best part of a year, without ever landing even once, when you start talking about moving forces around. For a short raid to the next system over you're correct, but that's not how DropShips are used in the lore; or at the high levels of the Tabletop game; they're strategic transports. That means they must be able to operate for long periods, because it takes long periods to go anywhere unless you're talking about very very confined tactical scale movement in an area only a few jumps in radius. You cannot build DropShips for "short hops" because doing so makes the setting fall apart from the basic impossibly of strategic power projection when you have no ability to transport forces beyond the local scale. Because transport, again, takes months even in ideal conditions the majority of the time.

And this is reflected in their lore performance and descriptions "on screen", and in the general design space of military transport DropShips as described: they're not ever described as being used for "short hops" only, their use in lore fully expects that a Union might load up on New Syrtis and not touch atmosphere again until it gets to Trellshire, and on the same JumpShip the whole trip. This was true even - or perhaps especially - during the Star League era, when the SLDF was explicitly requiring a two-year independent operating time for its forces; if anything, a Star League era DropShip should not only have full quarters, but a mass budget of four tons of supplies per person to account for that requirment plus a reasonable reserve!
The notion that DropShips are only used for short duration missions is entirely post ex hoc because the canon ones can only be used that way and even then only after heavy refits so they can carry enough supplies and personnel to operate at all, and is not reflected in their use in universe. Ergo, in a situation where we are entirely or nearly entirely (you might note that the example design uses, largely, the same types of weapons systems as the canon design and in roughly similar proportions) discarding the canonical designs, it does not make sense to cling to the way DropShips were designed when nearly everything about their operation was handwaved and had no rules, but instead to use the rules presented to create statistics reflecting the use cases in universe. Because if they weren't capable of doing the job, they wouldn't be doing it.
« Last Edit: 07 December 2024, 18:18:40 by Mechanis »

Daryk

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #22 on: 07 December 2024, 18:58:25 »
Hilariously, I just finished watching this Matthew Collville video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDCQspQDchI

The argument we're having is very much in the vein of what was being argued back in the '70s about D&D.  And we both appear to be on Weirdo's side about "saving Aero", just with very different approaches.

To me, a lot of the 3025 era was about misusing and abusing technology from bygone centuries to do things it wasn't intended for in ways it was never imagined to be used.  That's how I think of the OG DropShips, and just about everything else.  Your approach is different, and no less valid.  I don't think TPTB have settled this debate among themselves, and they certainly hadn't settled it when TRO: 3057 was written, or TRO: 2750, much less DropShips & JumpShips.  And now we have design rules for all those ships that certainly vary from whatever non- (or no longer-) rules were used to design them.

And as far as what games I've played (or not), let's just say the debates with my GMs probably went differently than yours.  I invite you to check out my sig block for a sample. :)

Mechanis

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #23 on: 07 December 2024, 19:18:14 »
I mean sure, but even so you should still be considering how things were used in universe even when they were new and both the Star League and the Great Houses during the Age of War did not at all treat DropShips as "short hop only" craft in the very very few bits and pieces we have of the era; they were always treated as strategic transports. If anything, what we should see from the Star League era designs is absurd extravagant Conspicuous Consumption overbuilding, like having everyone in Officer Quarters and budgeting 4-5 tons of supplies per person or similar nonsense, especially from late Star League designs where they had more money than God to throw around. Really, if the refit rules for DropShip structure weren't "building an entirely new ship is frequently cheaper and less difficult" I would have the Star League fit all extravagant and thin skinned to free the mass needed, and then have SuccWars fits that carry smaller and less nice quarters in exchange for piles more armor and or cargo as needed. But then given my druthers I'd have written the basic construction rules for them only after the rules for their use were established, and simply made it against the construction rules to make ships that don't work. But it is what it is and we have what we have.

Daryk

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #24 on: 07 December 2024, 19:36:54 »
I think the huge cargo bays of the 2750 WarShips were a nod in that direction.

idea weenie

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #25 on: 07 December 2024, 20:58:14 »
One thing I'd expect is that if a House is making that sort of large movement of troops (multiple months), then they would also have several Cargo Dropships en-route to resupply the military Dropships.

Steerage Quarters only take up less tonnage than 30-person Foot Infantry Bays on a per-person basis at 107 days.

As to the New Syrtis -> Twycross trip (Twycross is the capital of the Trellshire Province), that is almost 750 light-years for a minimum of 25 jumps which is a minimum of 168 days of charging.  That is a major troop movement as you are going from the SE of the Inner Sphere to the NW part, so the source and destination would have decent coordination.  I'd expect cargo Dropships standing by in pre-selected systems to resupply the military Dropships, changing out their used Life-support for fresh.  This is assuming a Command Circuit was not set up to move the Dropships faster.

If there are no rules to penalize troops for being in space for multiple months, then that is something that could be added.


As to redoing the rules for constructing Dropships, Jumpships, and Warships, we have had those discussions before.
Some examples of this are:
- wanting to build a space-going object that is not a Dropship and masses 301-1999 tons
- Look at how much of a Warship's price is just from its KF core
- Calculating the prices of KF cores for a variety of Warship tonnages, and see how much that price changes as the tonnage goes up
- Allow the Lithium-Fusion Batteries and main KF Core to be charged at the same time (instead of only sequentially)
- Allow the Lithium-Fusion Batteries and main KF Core to be charged from multiple sources at the same time (i.e. if the local star charges in 200 hours, you'd activate a supplementary fusion reactor to bring it down to 176 hours (minimum safe time).  Calculation for this fuel would be another issue
- Change the Fire Control Limits to be based on the mass of the vessel instead of 12 or 20 per arc
- Change the Weapon Bay Damage limits to be based on the mass of the vessel instead of a flat 70 pts/
- Aerotech 3.0 rules ideas

AlphaMirage

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #26 on: 07 December 2024, 21:14:46 »
Steerage Quarters only take up less tonnage than 30-person Foot Infantry Bays on a per-person basis at 107 days.

Agreed, although I do think that cost of consumables (which is to my estimate something like 800cb/ton) is a bigger expense than tonnage alone as a cargo dropship can carry many thousands of tons of cargo but paying basically double sustainment costs seems unwise. I know heresy to actually use the c-bill but alas the break even for that is around 40 days. You could put quarters on cargo dropships and transport the personnel so a single auxiliary freighter might have enough tonnage to spare for several dozen or hundreds of individuals without to much difficulty enough to hold personnel until they are near their end location.

That said such large long distance transfers are likely uncommon as the empire *should* use the forces closest to the problem to handle said problem as that is the most logical process. Now what would be more important IMO is that during extended operations such as large planetary invasions and the like your auxiliary dropships are also your semi-mobile bases and personnel need a berth anyway so why not keep them on the safest location, in space, away from ambushes, until they are needed.

Some examples of this are:
- Look at how much of a Warship's price is just from its KF core
- Calculating the prices of KF cores for a variety of Warship tonnages, and see how much that price changes as the tonnage goes up
- Allow the Lithium-Fusion Batteries and main KF Core to be charged at the same time (instead of only sequentially)
- Allow the Lithium-Fusion Batteries and main KF Core to be charged from multiple sources at the same time (i.e. if the local star charges in 200 hours, you'd activate a supplementary fusion reactor to bring it down to 176 hours (minimum safe time).  Calculation for this fuel would be another issue

Warship cores are just what they are, its a linear scale based on mass unlike Mech fusion engines. I'd rather they adjust the multiplier than change the base cost and actually appreciate the 70 Max Cap damage per bay.

Also LF and Main Core can be charged at the same time just not via the same process (so external battery charge, solar sail, OR internal reactor) which I think actually fine and makes sense for the fluff system.

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #27 on: 07 December 2024, 22:01:19 »
Agreed, although I do think that cost of consumables (which is to my estimate something like 800cb) is a bigger expense than tonnage alone as a cargo dropship can carry many thousands of tons of cargo but paying basically double sustainment costs seems unwise. I know heresy to actually use the c-bill but alas the break even for that is around 40 days. You could put quarters on cargo dropships and transport the personnel so a single auxiliary freighter might have enough tonnage to spare for several dozen or hundreds of individuals without to much difficulty enough to hold personnel until they are near their end location.

That said such large long distance transfers are likely uncommon as the empire *should* use the forces closest to the problem to handle said problem as that is the most logical process. Now what would be more important IMO is that during extended operations such as large planetary invasions and the like your auxiliary dropships are also your semi-mobile bases and personnel need a berth anyway so why not keep them on the safest location, in space, away from ambushes, until they are needed.

800 cb per person per day?  That is quite pricey for Life Support.  I am curious where that value came from, as I likely missed it while reading.

Large planetary invasions would still have supplies coming in, so using Foot Infantry Bays (or fancier versions) to me would still make sense.  You don't need the more efficient 100+ days of endurance with Quarters when you get resupplied every 1-2 months.

Warship cores are just what they are, its a linear scale based on mass unlike Mech fusion engines. I'd rather they adjust the multiplier than change the base cost and actually appreciate the 70 Max Cap damage per bay.

Also LF and Main Core can be charged at the same time just not via the same process (so external battery charge, solar sail, OR internal reactor) which I think actually fine and makes sense for the fluff system.

I'd wonder why the internal reactor couldn't charge both at the same time.  It generates more power than the KF Core should need vs the Solar Sail at ~10 AU.


As to Warship Cores being linear in mass, that is true.  Linear in Cost might be technically true but not in proportion to the vessel mass.

Using the rules in strategic Operations, corrected 4th printing, page 146:
KF Drive Components:
* Flat price items: 60M + 25M + 50M + 0.5M = 135.5M
* Per-Dropship Items: 75M + 5M + 0.2M = 80.2M
(the Tankage and Sail barely contribute a million C-Bills each so I skipped them)

The above are multiplied by 5 to get Compact Core prices

So a Jumpship with just the KF Core and no Dropship Collars would be 135.5M before the final multiplier, while a Warship with a Compact Core would be 677.5M before the x2 Warship Final Multiplier.

* KF Drive Support Systems: 20M * (50 + Warship Tonnage/10k)

For example, a 100 kton Warship will be paying 20M * (50 + 100kton/10kton) = 20M * (50 + 10) = 20M * (60) = 1200M C-Bills

So here are the final KF prices for a 100 kton Warship, a 200 kton Warship, a 500 kton Warship, a 1 MTon Warship, and a 2.5 MTon Warship, no Dropship Collars nor Li-Fu Batteries.  All prices are in millions of C-Bills.
100 ktons: 677.5 + 1,200 = 1,877.5; Final Price = 3,755
200 ktons: 677.5 + 1,400 = 2,077.5; Final Price = 4,155
500 ktons: 677.5 + 2,000 = 2,677.5; Final Price = 5,355
1 Mton: 677.5 + 3,000 = 3,677.5; Final Price = 7,355
2.5 Mtons: 677.5 + 6,000 = 6,677.5; Final Price = 13,355

The KF Core for the 200 kton vessel is ~11% more expensive, for a vessel twice the mass of the 100 kton vessel.  The 500kton vessel has a core 43% more expensive than the 100 kton vessel.  The 2.5 MTon vessel's Core is less than 4* as expensive when it masses 25* as much.

If you want, try pulling up a design for a Warship that is 1.25 MTons or less, and see how much of the final price is due to just the KF Core (remember to adjust the KF Core's price by the Final Multiplier).  For more fun, take that Warship and do the following:
* double its mass
* adjust Fuel, armor, heat sinks, and personnel to the new size
* use the leftover spare tonnage as just cargo

From there, look at the final price of the larger hull compared to the price of the original hull.  You have just doubled the mass of the KF Core, but has the price of the KF Core doubled?

There is another fan thread that discussed the prices of the KF Core and how to improve them here, with a very nice idea from Hellraiser here.

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #28 on: 07 December 2024, 23:40:11 »
Hahaha no
Try more like 10000+ tons


Do you know what 'dry weight' means?  I was imagining that the Union would be running a minimum of 10k tons once fully loaded.  It might need to be more closer to 20k as Cray cited. So, my spitballing of 5k dry means without ANYTHING added on, including fuel or personnel.  At a minimum. But, it was low.  I will admit that.

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Re: Hypothetical: Saving Aero - Damaging a DropShip
« Reply #29 on: 08 December 2024, 00:17:13 »
Travel in BattleTech takes months. you can easily be hanging off a JumpShip for the best part of a year, without ever landing even once, when you start talking about moving forces around. For a short raid to the next system over you're correct, but that's not how DropShips are used in the lore; or at the high levels of the Tabletop game; they're strategic transports. That means they must be able to operate for long periods, because it takes long periods to go anywhere unless you're talking about very very confined tactical scale movement in an area only a few jumps in radius. You cannot build DropShips for "short hops" because doing so makes the setting fall apart from the basic impossibly of strategic power projection when you have no ability to transport forces beyond the local scale. Because transport, again, takes months even in ideal conditions the majority of the time.

It's this reason that I kinda wished they expanded the lore on the JumpShip industry in general.  Because, this is TOO SLOW.  I can envision what lore we get on JumpShip and DropShip operations are from the Military side, who decide to dedicate transports for strictly military movement so as not to interfere with and break up normal commerce operations. 

But, again, I think the actual rate of commerce for the Inner Sphere is much greater than what's shown.  And, it fails to take into account what is supposed to be ubiquitous: The mercenary company.  (And I apply 'company' in equal terms business title as well as common unit military organization.)  And, if they're meant to be mobile across the black, that means they have to interrupt military vessels which are in short supply, or take advantage of the hidden commerce system, which could mean hopping from Jumper to Jumper much like how people use layovers to switch between aircraft or trains or busses when traveling across 21st century Earth. 

These trips would be planned in advance, of course, but you could cut short waiting times for a Jumper's recharge because there's one a couple days away from jumping to the next system you want on your route to a new contract. 

But, even with that consideration, as it is set up, you CANNOT REACT to a raid from an adjacent system.  The only thing you can potentially react to is an invasion.  And, this is where I roll my eyes in askance at some of the contracts you can potentially come across in some of the video games.  And, some of the stuff that happens in the books happens a little too quickly. 

[sigh] But, I digress. 
It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

I helped make a game! ^_^  - Forge Of War: Tactics