Author Topic: Dropship Question, V2  (Read 545 times)

CarcosanDawn

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Dropship Question, V2
« on: 03 December 2024, 00:43:24 »
Hi folks!
As some of you might know, the Soarece tank built in 2881 by the Free Worlds League is one of my favorite units. Wrapping up some earlier engagements, I was considering what kind of dropship migbr be used to bear such a unit forth. The FWL made a hundred or so, and I have a bit of head canon for the 5th Oriente Fusiliers gaining some (I can get into more detail about how this fits, but to stay on topic...)

There are no canon DropShips in the appropriate timeframe that have Superheavy Vehicle Bays. However, they exist and can be employed... the question is, which pod is best? Talking 3000ish for year. I don't think a leopard and union are heavy enough to carry an appreciable unit, and they aren't "go it alone" style units anyways. Is something as big as an Excalibur too much? Is a Triumph within the budget of a FWL province just to carry around some maverick Marik tanks?
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Dropship Question, V2
« Reply #1 on: 03 December 2024, 00:47:15 »
I'd expect an Overlord to carry them as cargo, mostly.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Dropship Question, V2
« Reply #2 on: 03 December 2024, 01:34:33 »
If they are for Defense.   Cargo Dropship.

If they are 2nd Wave Offense.   Cargo Dropship.

If you just have to use them in 1st Wave Offense.......
    Ogre is probably onto something with an Overlord that is stripped of it's Mech capacity for Cargo (or Super-Heavy Bays if they exist.)

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CarcosanDawn

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Re: Dropship Question, V2
« Reply #3 on: 03 December 2024, 07:30:24 »
Superheavy Bays do exist, and while I am not unwilling to carry them as cargo, I assumed the bays would offer other benefits besides instant offloading (like a place to store technicians, conduct repairs, etc) over literally just stuffing them into perfectly sized foam cubicles and putting them in the trunk of my c- I mean shipping them as cargo.
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RifleMech

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Re: Dropship Question, V2
« Reply #4 on: 03 December 2024, 08:58:34 »
Considering the Soarece was built for defense, I would think most would have been shipped as cargo. The rest would have been shipped in bays. Unfortunately, canon hasn't kept up when it comes to interplanetary transportation so there's no canon dropship we can point to. :sad: Fortunately, we can make customs. :smiley: I'd nominate the Triumph for that. It's pretty versatile. It shouldn't be difficult to swap some of it's heavy vehicle bays for some super heavy vehicle bays.

Alan Grant

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Re: Dropship Question, V2
« Reply #5 on: 03 December 2024, 10:17:24 »
I don't think we've ever seen anything in canon that says the FWL provincial forces don't have or can't afford large dropships. So yes I think they probably do have some larger dropships around. In particular the big provinces like Oriente, I have no trouble imagining them having some large dropships.

In Field Report 2765: FWLM we see the big provinces actually have small provincial navies and a small number of warships and attendant assault dropships and fighter carriers. Oriente had the First and second Oriente Provincial Squadrons centered around less than a handful of destroyer warship hulls. If they can afford to do that, then they probably have a workable transport navy as well. Yes that is pre-Succession Wars, but it still speaks to a baseline of their capacity. It also suggests they may have retained some of that transport fleet well into the Succession Wars years.

In the year 3000-3050 the Fusiliers of Oriente and Oriente Hussars combined had how many 'mech regiments? A lot. It makes sense that they would have sufficient dropships to move some of them around in an efficient manner. Some were absolutely used for offense, particularly among the Fusiliers of Oriente, allowing them to deploy an entire regiment (plus regiments of conventional forces) for invasions. To make that feasible, some bigger dropships seem likely. If you have nothing but a dropper fleet of Leopards and Unions and Gazelles and Furies, that would require a LOT of jumpship collars to move in a single planetary invasion fleet in one-jump.

So yes, I think you have plenty of creative freedom with this. Whether it's something like an Overlord, Excalibur, swapping out some bays. I would agree that a Triumph makes a certain kind of sense. The fluff on the Triumph has always made it sound pretty versatile. For example it's fluffed as sometimes being used to transport surface naval vessels. That implies to me a rather roomy design. It also has those big doors on the sides of the hull.

I don't have a difficult time picturing a super heavy vehicle being loaded/unloaded via a Triumph.

Some other big dropships could work too. I don't think I would use a Gazelle just because the Gazelle's fluff gives us the dimensions for the ramp and a super-heavy vehicle might just be too big. I'm not sure, but best to dodge the controversy and save yourself the time of having to debate the issue.

CarcosanDawn

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Re: Dropship Question, V2
« Reply #6 on: 03 December 2024, 10:35:11 »
A triumph is fine - the Fifth Fusiliers are one aerospace wing and three regiments, one of each arm (infantry, 'Mech, and armor). The Infantry are from a Static Defense Unit - so more 'attached' than 'part of.'

The 'Mech regiment could fit in 3 Overlords (each with a battalion), the Tank Regiment could use a pair of Excaliburs (one is probably mostly C2 and attached units with only one BN of armor, this could be the superheavy carrier), or a brace of Triumphs, so either option is good.

It sounds like it comes down to my favorite between the two, right? Thanks for confirming Oriente (plausibly) has a provincial black navy.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Dropship Question, V2
« Reply #7 on: 03 December 2024, 14:55:22 »
Personally I would not use the Excalibur for a couple reasons.

1.  The FWL doesn't produce them.  So they won't have a plethora lying around for you to customize.

2.  The FWL only made 100ish of these tanks, so your unlikely to need to transport that many in a single force.

3.  I thought they produced the Triumph but it appears they don't.  That said it is a lot older & more common so you might see a custom modification there.

4.  They do produce the Gazelle which is even older, & could easily be seen in a variant/custom configuration at one point to transport a lance of the Super-Heavy tanks while still carrying a lance of normal sized tanks.



At 1500 Tons of Tanks in the Gazelle you can have up to 7 but I'd just do 4.

If you go with the Triumph you can easily move 5 Platoons worth.

But again, are all these rare tanks in a single unit?

Do they also all need to be deployed in Wave-1?


If I'm RPing this I'm definitely not using a rare Excalibur.

I'd probably fluff in a short production run of Gazelle variants to test with the 100 tanks.
No unit should need more than 1-2 Gazelles for rapid deployment with the remainder coming in on Cargo ships.

Lets face it, only the most well equipped units top end high speed units should have/need to deploy 100% of their force from orbit or within a few minutes of hitting the ground.

Once you take an LZ with a portion of your force the rest can unload at a bit slower rate.
 Securing an LZ shouldn't take more than a battalion or 2 of mechs deployed from orbit.  (Main Overlord works here)

Unions/Leopards are for hitting secondary targets to disrupt enemy response.  (Also from orbit)

Which leaves the rest of the mechs & the conventional units landing in the LZ & deploying from there.
Common vehicle/infantry carriers & Cargo Ships bring in a good portion of troops.
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CarcosanDawn

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Re: Dropship Question, V2
« Reply #8 on: 03 December 2024, 17:35:16 »
Personally I would not use the Excalibur for a couple reasons.

1.  The FWL doesn't produce them.  So they won't have a plethora lying around for you to customize.

2.  The FWL only made 100ish of these tanks, so your unlikely to need to transport that many in a single force.

3.  I thought they produced the Triumph but it appears they don't.  That said it is a lot older & more common so you might see a custom modification there.

4.  They do produce the Gazelle which is even older, & could easily be seen in a variant/custom configuration at one point to transport a lance of the Super-Heavy tanks while still carrying a lance of normal sized tanks.



At 1500 Tons of Tanks in the Gazelle you can have up to 7 but I'd just do 4.

If you go with the Triumph you can easily move 5 Platoons worth.

But again, are all these rare tanks in a single unit?

Do they also all need to be deployed in Wave-1?


If I'm RPing this I'm definitely not using a rare Excalibur.

I'd probably fluff in a short production run of Gazelle variants to test with the 100 tanks.
No unit should need more than 1-2 Gazelles for rapid deployment with the remainder coming in on Cargo ships.

Lets face it, only the most well equipped units top end high speed units should have/need to deploy 100% of their force from orbit or within a few minutes of hitting the ground.

Once you take an LZ with a portion of your force the rest can unload at a bit slower rate.
 Securing an LZ shouldn't take more than a battalion or 2 of mechs deployed from orbit.  (Main Overlord works here)

Unions/Leopards are for hitting secondary targets to disrupt enemy response.  (Also from orbit)

Which leaves the rest of the mechs & the conventional units landing in the LZ & deploying from there.
Common vehicle/infantry carriers & Cargo Ships bring in a good portion of troops.

This is the kind of discussion I was hoping for - what the FWL produces and what it doesn't. I was thinking a dropship produced on Keystone would be perfect, but sadly, there are none that I could find (checked Sarna). There's the mysterious League-class DropShip that exists exactly in one novel... not to be confused with the WarShip. Anyways...

To directly respond to your question:
I don't plan on owning all >100 Soarece tanks; just a company, and I am not convinced they will ever be deployed as an entire company (or even single lance, despite the Star League heritage of the armor unit and tendency towards monotype lances I therefore infer. They're just too expensive at reasonable game sizes to be fielded that way (more expensive in BV and PV than most contemporary Assault 'Mechs).

In-Universe though I imagine they'd be tested not in singletons but in groups; they seem like the kind of vehicle where having a single one is just asking for it to break down or be wiped out before it can show its quality. Of course, with the Soarece, it's likely that having 12 means you have 10 breakdowns... but that's 2 that get tested, right? (I jest). I suppose I don't see a single example out and about by itself.

The reason I would like to fit the company onto a single DropShip is if the entire regiment is redeploying (say, from Sheridan to Nestor), I would suspect they'd've spent the money to purchase/convert the bays on a SINGLE ship, not on like, three or four. This would also concentrate the Techs required (Fuel Cell engines are uncommon in the military in the Succession War) and would put a place for any of experts in the design (such as project managers) to see to the whole 'herd'. It also means a single enemy space-shot can relieve the poor Fusiliers of the burden of these huge tanks (but I just love them so much)! Bahaha.

That said, I could see 3 Gazelles with a lance per Gazelle, but that sounds egregious... though switching the existing bays for Superheavy Vehicle Bays is a Class B refit so could probably be done more easily than I'm letting on...
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Hellraiser

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Re: Dropship Question, V2
« Reply #9 on: 03 December 2024, 19:26:43 »
In-Universe though I imagine they'd be tested not in singletons but in groups; they seem like the kind of vehicle where having a single one is just asking for it to break down or be wiped out before it can show its quality. Of course, with the Soarece, it's likely that having 12 means you have 10 breakdowns... but that's 2 that get tested, right? (I jest). I suppose I don't see a single example out and about by itself.

The reason I would like to fit the company onto a single DropShip is if the entire regiment is redeploying (say, from Sheridan to Nestor), I would suspect they'd've spent the money to purchase/convert the bays on a SINGLE ship, not on like, three or four. This would also concentrate the Techs required (Fuel Cell engines are uncommon in the military in the Succession War) and would put a place for any of experts in the design (such as project managers) to see to the whole 'herd'. It also means a single enemy space-shot can relieve the poor Fusiliers of the burden of these huge tanks (but I just love them so much)! Bahaha.

That said, I could see 3 Gazelles with a lance per Gazelle, but that sounds egregious... though switching the existing bays for Superheavy Vehicle Bays is a Class B refit so could probably be done more easily than I'm letting on...

Honestly, like I mentioned above, if your RPG has a total of 12, then I don't see a need to deploy more than 4 as part of my "1st 5 Minutes on the ground" combat force.

When I'm creating the DS Fleet for a FC RCT for example, I'm shooting for maybe 7 companies out of the 9-12 that the regiment fields in terms of total total mechs, to have the option to drop from orbit via Mech cubicles.  (5 will do in a pinch)
Maybe another 12 mechs via an Excalibur that IIRC is fluffed as having mech bays but not the ability to drop them as fast deploy when landing.
But the last battalion+ or so are getting brought in via a Mule (or 2) once the LZ is secure.
The tank brigade will be lucky to land 4 of its 10 battalions as a "first wave" force.
Ditto the infantry with at most 2 regiments of dedicated DS.
About the only combat arm that I don't have much stored in "Cargo" for is the ASF wings since you have dedicated CVs, the Mech Movers, & a lack of large ASF formations.
Though, if you were bringing in a "Ground Support" wing of Conventional Fighters I would see those as being on Cargo DS.

Anyway back to the super tank, If you have to have them on a single DS then I'd suggest using a Triumph that removes 2 Companies of Heavy Bays for 1 Company of Super-Heavy bays.
But frankly, a Gazelle allowing fast deploy of 1 Lance w/ the rest in cargo is what I would use.

A lot of folks suggest going for big Dropships to save on total collars & # of JS.
The reality of the IS is that very few units actually HAVE their own dedicated JS.
Far more often they will have "some" DS & then when it's time to deploy the Naval Fleet will assign them a temporary taskforce of JS of all sizes & some extra fighters & maybe an Assault DS or 2 & it is that taskforce that will do the KF Jump for them & then be sent back to Fleet Com when the mission is over.

The issue isn't having a shortage of JS for any single Regiment to use, the issue is mobilizing an entire border at the same time, which is why you see houses end up dragooning Civilian JS into use for a while & then you see fluff about "economic crash" in the Post-4SW FedSuns or the Post-39 DraconisCombine.

If the houses actually tried to give each regiment its own JS compliment they would all be left with less than a full compliment & ability to only move half their force (or less).
There would be no command circuits or free floating fleets+wings to mobilize.


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3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

CarcosanDawn

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Re: Dropship Question, V2
« Reply #10 on: 03 December 2024, 22:35:57 »
Honestly, like I mentioned above, if your RPG has a total of 12, then I don't see a need to deploy more than 4 as part of my "1st 5 Minutes on the ground" combat force.

When I'm creating the DS Fleet for a FC RCT for example, I'm shooting for maybe 7 companies out of the 9-12 that the regiment fields in terms of total total mechs, to have the option to drop from orbit via Mech cubicles.  (5 will do in a pinch)
Maybe another 12 mechs via an Excalibur that IIRC is fluffed as having mech bays but not the ability to drop them as fast deploy when landing.
But the last battalion+ or so are getting brought in via a Mule (or 2) once the LZ is secure.
The tank brigade will be lucky to land 4 of its 10 battalions as a "first wave" force.
Ditto the infantry with at most 2 regiments of dedicated DS.
About the only combat arm that I don't have much stored in "Cargo" for is the ASF wings since you have dedicated CVs, the Mech Movers, & a lack of large ASF formations.
Though, if you were bringing in a "Ground Support" wing of Conventional Fighters I would see those as being on Cargo DS.

Anyway back to the super tank, If you have to have them on a single DS then I'd suggest using a Triumph that removes 2 Companies of Heavy Bays for 1 Company of Super-Heavy bays.
But frankly, a Gazelle allowing fast deploy of 1 Lance w/ the rest in cargo is what I would use.

A lot of folks suggest going for big Dropships to save on total collars & # of JS.
The reality of the IS is that very few units actually HAVE their own dedicated JS.
Far more often they will have "some" DS & then when it's time to deploy the Naval Fleet will assign them a temporary taskforce of JS of all sizes & some extra fighters & maybe an Assault DS or 2 & it is that taskforce that will do the KF Jump for them & then be sent back to Fleet Com when the mission is over.

The issue isn't having a shortage of JS for any single Regiment to use, the issue is mobilizing an entire border at the same time, which is why you see houses end up dragooning Civilian JS into use for a while & then you see fluff about "economic crash" in the Post-4SW FedSuns or the Post-39 DraconisCombine.

If the houses actually tried to give each regiment its own JS compliment they would all be left with less than a full compliment & ability to only move half their force (or less).
There would be no command circuits or free floating fleets+wings to mobilize.

All fair! Again I was assuming the bays provided more services than just the ability to drop/exit quickly. I also thought they brought repairs and stuff. The other issue is the bay is only 25 tons heavier than the tank - storing them as cargo "only" saves 25 tons for the final product.

As for the regiment thing, that makes sense. In that case I can just not worry about it - I figured reconfiguring whatever dropship arrived to pick them up with Superheavy Bays was silly, but if something has 2100 tons of cargo space, no need for the Class B refit to change the bays anyways, every time they get sent somewheres.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Dropship Question, V2
« Reply #11 on: 03 December 2024, 23:01:13 »
All fair! Again I was assuming the bays provided more services than just the ability to drop/exit quickly. I also thought they brought repairs and stuff. The other issue is the bay is only 25 tons heavier than the tank - storing them as cargo "only" saves 25 tons for the final product.

As for the regiment thing, that makes sense. In that case I can just not worry about it - I figured reconfiguring whatever dropship arrived to pick them up with Superheavy Bays was silly, but if something has 2100 tons of cargo space, no need for the Class B refit to change the bays anyways, every time they get sent somewheres.

The bays do provide more to be sure.
The 25 tons isn't really about saving tonnage.
It was just me was trying to fit 12 onto a single platform & follow canon availability/production and a need v/s want mindset.

My 1st choice default is just stick them in cargo, but, as you noted, having a bay to repair them in while traveling between systems or in hostile territory & some Crew quarters both counts for something.
  Especially the repair part.  Sure you have mobile repair trucks & such but a back up of some DS Bays guarantees at least some access.
So with support for the Super-Tank in mind, I'd probably use a single Gazelle.
  The 4 bays can be used by the entire company for rotating repairs w/o having to have 3 Gazelles.
Being it's an ultra common DS that has local production support the idea of customizing one of them v/s some rare Excalibur speaks to me.

I think it all comes down to your total # of them & how many you want on the ground 5 minutes after landing.
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3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

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Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

RifleMech

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Re: Dropship Question, V2
« Reply #12 on: 04 December 2024, 04:20:21 »
I don't think the dropship would be modified just for the Şoarece. Dropship modifications are expensive so you want to maximize the modifications as as much as possible to get your money's worth. So the dropship is going to carry any other super heavy tanks available. If none are available it could still carry lighter vehicles. If needed, more than one could be packed into the bay as cargo.

A Gazelle could be modified to carry a lance each of SHV, HV, and LV so it could still carry a full armor company. I think that would complicate the Gazelle's already complicated unloading procedure though. It might be better to just have a reinforced lance of 6 SHVs and more cargo but I'm not sure that's the best use of a Gazelle. Even if you carry 6 LVs it'd take time to unload them and the Gazelle doesn't want to be caught on the ground.

thesilverback

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Re: Dropship Question, V2
« Reply #13 on: 04 December 2024, 20:59:58 »
Great discussion, moving something is going to leave a lot of problems.
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CarcosanDawn

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Re: Dropship Question, V2
« Reply #14 on: 04 December 2024, 22:25:46 »
There aren't any other SHVs in the period that are combat vees afaik - I suppose it seems natural to me to want a bay, as cargo seems like a lot of drawbacks to save 25tons (lack of repairs, long offload times, etc.).

And the way offload times are calculated, the lighter vehicles are actually better as cargo, right? Since units get offloaded and set up by tonnage, iirc.
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RifleMech

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Re: Dropship Question, V2
« Reply #15 on: 05 December 2024, 03:29:32 »
There aren't any other SHVs in the period that are combat vees afaik - I suppose it seems natural to me to want a bay, as cargo seems like a lot of drawbacks to save 25tons (lack of repairs, long offload times, etc.).

And the way offload times are calculated, the lighter vehicles are actually better as cargo, right? Since units get offloaded and set up by tonnage, iirc.

They don't have to be combat vehicles, just vehicles over 100 tons. The MUL lists several support vehicles that could be carried in SHV Bays. And we can always make our own.  :wink:

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=&HasBV=false&MinTons=100&MaxTons=200&MinBV=&MaxBV=&MinIntro=&MaxIntro=&MinCost=&MaxCost=&HasBFAbility=&MinPV=&MaxPV=&Technologies=1&Technologies=57&Types=19&Types=24&BookAuto=&FactionAuto=&Eras=9&Eras=10&Eras=11

Bays do have their uses; repairs, quarters, faster loading and unloading. And SHV Bays don't have to carry SHVs. They can carry lighter vehicles so SHV Bays are still of use even if you don't have a SHV to carry. They can also be used to carry cargo, if you give up repairs and sacrifice loading/unloading times. Just unload that bay first so you can use it for repairs. The down side is you can't install as many but that's true with HV Bays compared to LV Bays.

Cargo speed does go by weight so lighter weight units do get loaded and unloaded faster.
 

Great discussion, moving something is going to leave a lot of problems.

Sometimes. A lot of the time it's okay. Just find a dropship that will carry what you want and go. But if you want specific eras or to transport units we don't have bays for transportation gets complicated. :(

 

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