Post-Empire villain? New faction, or recycled Reunification Wars?

[Charistoph]

And like the Star League, the Republic of the Sphere was pretty much dead as soon as we were introduced to it.

[Aotrs Commander]

You know, it ain't gonna happen in canon, but we've got this nifty little section of the fan-boards called "Fan Fiction"...where ideas like yours can be safely explored without the fear of lawsuits or editorial policies shutting it down.

I query why this would specifically require that mention when the earlier mention of the tired old Rogue AI trope did not...? Was it just the thought of something actually being geninuely capital-G Good too fantastic? (If so, fair enough, I guess, there's little evidence of it these days...)

I mean, you already had that in BattleTech. It was called the Republic of the Sphere.

Your saying that would be literally the first time I have heard anything to suggest that the Republic was anything but the usual BattleTech neutral-at-best, so I'm not sure we really have.

Unless I've missed something and Devlin Stone was Actually Superman/Optimus Prime/Gandalf/He-Man et al[1] (which I find difficult to grok with what happened); though to be fair, my knowledge of this period is basically Sarna summaries and the TROs and I've not read quite that far into Universe yet, so maybe I HAVE missed that something, but...

And if that is true, then it apparently went down harder than the Tau in 40k (them being the actually good guys lasted about, what, five minutes? But that was 40k, which is entirely predicated on being as ridiculously dystopian as possible. BT has in theory SOME wiggle-room...)



[1]Counting morality and character only, not powers.

[Cannonshop]

I query why this would specifically require that mention when the earlier mention of the tired old Rogue AI trope did not...? Was it just the thought of something actually being geninuely capital-G Good too fantastic? (If so, fair enough, I guess, there's little evidence of it these days...)

Your saying that would be literally the first time I have heard anything to suggest that the Republic was anything but the usual BattleTech neutral-at-best, so I'm not sure we really have.

Unless I've missed something and Devlin Stone was Actually Superman/Optimus Prime/Gandalf/He-Man et al[1] (which I find difficult to grok with what happened); though to be fair, my knowledge of this period is basically Sarna summaries and the TROs and I've not read quite that far into Universe yet, so maybe I HAVE missed that something, but...

And if that is true, then it apparently went down harder than the Tau in 40k (them being the actually good guys lasted about, what, five minutes? But that was 40k, which is entirely predicated on being as ridiculously dystopian as possible. BT has in theory SOME wiggle-room...)



[1]Counting morality and character only, not powers.

The problem with RoTS, is that in desperately trying to make them "The Good Guys" for a game aimed at 10-14 year olds (MWDA), they made them annoyingly milquetoast and as a result, unattractive, and at initial release, Devlin Stone read like a Gary Stu (literally never did anything wrong and all his ideas worked perfectly and look! they're right in line with what's most popular with HR departments and moralists of the early 2000's!)

The faction didn't actually get any character until later.

the gray areas were added later.  It turned out the preteen/young teen crowd weren't as keen on spending money as they initailly thought, so some adulting had to be done to keep the product intact.

aka the problem with RoTS was that Weissmann actually thought 'lawful good' was 'lawful stupid-but-lucky'.

What I read YOU are asking for, is something more akin to genuinely Lawful Good.

or, in your AI Trope way, Neutral Good with Lawful tendencies.

and for that, to make it work, you kinda gotta revert to the fanfic board, because  the Canon is (at least supposed to be) kind of morally gray.

More "The Punisher" than "Batman" if you get the analogy.

[tassa_kay]

Your saying that would be literally the first time I have heard anything to suggest that the Republic was anything but the usual BattleTech neutral-at-best, so I'm not sure we really have.

I mean, no offense, but just because you haven't heard it before doesn't make it untrue. The majority of old-school BT fans hated the Republic and the Dark Age on general principle for a VERY long time, mostly because MWDA wasn't "real" BattleTech or "their" BattleTech. You know, as fictional franchise fans tend to do when things change that they don't personally approve of. And you yourself said that your primary sources of information for this stuff are secondhand (Sarna, etc.). It's little wonder to me that you might have some misconceptions.

And I stand by my assessment: the Republic made genuine efforts not only to truly better the lives of the people that they inherited when the realm was created, but they tried to extend that same betterment to other realms as well. The Republic's overarching agenda was literally to prevent war from devastating the Inner Sphere again. The fact that the Inner Sphere's various realms ended up roflstomping it into the dirt over a 20ish-year period pretty much underscores the entire point: that this is BATTLETech, not PEACETech.

[Church14]

at initial release, Devlin Stone read like a Gary Stu (literally never did anything wrong and all his ideas worked perfectly and look! they're right in line with what's most popular with HR departments and moralists of the early 2000's!)

Worth noting that the entire premise of the dark ages is that Stone’s vision failed, and his ideas didn’t work in the end. So he’s introduced as a revered figure. Not a Gary Stu.

The rest is personal opinion, and your call.

Your saying that would be literally the first time I have heard anything to suggest that the Republic was anything but the usual BattleTech neutral-at-best, so I'm not sure we really have.

Unless I've missed something and Devlin Stone was Actually Superman/Optimus Prime/Gandalf/He-Man et al[1] (which I find difficult to grok with what happened); though to be fair, my knowledge of this period is basically Sarna summaries and the TROs and I've not read quite that far into Universe yet, so maybe I HAVE missed that something, but...

And if that is true, then it apparently went down harder than the Tau in 40k (them being the actually good guys lasted about, what, five minutes? But that was 40k, which is entirely predicated on being as ridiculously dystopian as possible. BT has in theory SOME wiggle-room...)

Couple notes:
- Sarna is fan edited and made. A lack of enthusiasm in general for dark ages means reading anything related to the era on there a crapshoot. If that’s your main source for RotS stuff, then it isn’t “if you missed something,” it’s “you have missed a lot.” Which isn’t a condemnation. I had to resort to primary sources for most anything rots related.
- the republic era is for the most part glossed over because it was so - relatively - peaceful, so getting not-biased summaries is challenging. But the short version is the RotS ushered in the longest era of near-peace since the Star league.
- I’m not familiar with the Tau analogy, but if you mean the republic went from good guys to just same as everyone, that’s inaccurate. They stayed stubbornly moral until they surrendered and were dissolved as a nation. Given the most recent novel, watching their nation crumble still hasn’t pushed those left into being bloodthirsty or as awful as most.

[Aotrs Commander]

The problem with RoTS, is that in desperately trying to make them "The Good Guys" for a game aimed at 10-14 year olds (MWDA), they made them annoyingly milquetoast and as a result, unattractive, and at initial release, Devlin Stone read like a Gary Stu (literally never did anything wrong and all his ideas worked perfectly and look! they're right in line with what's most popular with HR departments and moralists of the early 2000's!)

The faction didn't actually get any character until later.

the gray areas were added later.  It turned out the preteen/young teen crowd weren't as keen on spending money as they initailly thought, so some adulting had to be done to keep the product intact.

aka the problem with RoTS was that Weissmann actually thought 'lawful good' was 'lawful stupid-but-lucky'.

What I read YOU are asking for, is something more akin to genuinely Lawful Good.

or, in your AI Trope way, Neutral Good with Lawful tendencies.

and for that, to make it work, you kinda gotta revert to the fanfic board, because  the Canon is (at least supposed to be) kind of morally gray.

More "The Punisher" than "Batman" if you get the analogy.

Noted. Thank you for the explanation.

I mean, no offense, but just because you haven't heard it before doesn't make it untrue.

It does not indeed. Which is why I did qualify it with "I could just be missing stuff."

That was, in case it did not come across well, not me being facetious, that was me genuinely being prepared to be proven wrong (which Cannonshop's expansion has clarified).

The majority of old-school BT fans hated the Republic and the Dark Age on general principle for a VERY long time, mostly because MWDA wasn't "real" BattleTech or "their" BattleTech. You know, as fictional franchise fans tend to do. And you yourself said that your primary sources of information for this stuff are secondhand (Sarna, etc.). It's little wonder to me that you might have some misconceptions.

I did, in fact, entirely skip the whole clicky-tech era for, essentially, those reasons.

And I stand by my assessment: the Republic made genuine efforts not only to truly better the lives of the people that they inherited when the realm was created, but they tried to extend that same betterment to other realms as well. The Republic's overarching agenda was literally to prevent war from devastating the Inner Sphere again. The fact that the Inner Sphere's various realms ended up roflstomping it into the dirt over a 20ish-year period pretty much underscores the entire point: that this is BATTLETech, not PEACETech.

Fair enough.

As I said, I would have expected said theorhetical powers to fail, because wargame -

- for the same reasons that the majority of powers in my own stuff's lore haven't banded together (though that said, there are legitimate full on capital-G Good powers in their and they do tend to ally, but someone was complaining BattleTech had too many factions and my first lore book has 35 factions and counting, so there's kind of a lot of room...!)

-but that it would be interesting, if nothing else, to see how the cynical (human) BattleTech populace actually reacted to the AI revolution their own fiction would have been expecting for the past 1200 years... Actually being the opposite of what was expected. And to see said AI go down in flames, after feeling they kind of have to Be the Crisis, but making the sacrifice in the hopes of at least making a little difference. A grand tragedy.

Do I expect anything like that; no. But it would be slightly different. The problem with BT having a 40 year real-world history[1] is that there is that struggle to evolve the narrative while not repeating the stories, because it has been done once already. You can really only do the Clan Invasion once, same as you could only do Avengers: Endgame once.



[1]Actually, my own stuff has the very early stuff that puts it at not far off the same age, albeit with a much later maturity and depth, so I have some sympathy muself...!

[thedancingjoker]

The RotS had some shady stuff going on in service of trying to uphold their ideals.  Trying a bit to explore the Ends-justify-the-means in the BT setting.  I would say you could pretty clearly count the REPUBLIC as a whole to be a good faction.  Devlin Stone personally on the other hand is a more complicated matter.

[RifleMech]

Do I expect anything like that; no. But it would be slightly different. The problem with BT having a 40 year real-world history[1] is that there is that struggle to evolve the narrative while not repeating the stories, because it has been done once already. You can really only do the Clan Invasion once, same as you could only do Avengers: Endgame once.

History does repeat it self though. There's differences but it does repeat. There could be a Clan Invasion 2.0 but it would be different since the IS has changed so much since the first one.

[tassa_kay]

History does repeat it self though. There's differences but it does repeat. There could be a Clan Invasion 2.0 but it would be different since the IS has changed so much since the first one.

Absolutely. And that's to say nothing of, say, the Homeworld Clans and how much they might've changed over the decades since they went into self-enforced isolation. A Clan Invasion 2.0 could be quite different indeed.

[Aotrs Commander]

History does repeat it self though. There's differences but it does repeat. There could be a Clan Invasion 2.0 but it would be different since the IS has changed so much since the first one.

Yes, but it won't have the same impact narratively. For one, there would be less mystery, like there was at the start of the Clan Invasion in real-time. An unknown power showing up with new technology was almost an out-of-context problem that had never happened previously in BT's history. And even if you did introduce an entirely new threat (like aliens) or one of a different colour (like my proposed LG AI)... It would still not re-create that same impact. And this is true of all of the major plot upheavals, like the Jihad and the Blackout.

(In the same way as you will never be able to re-create the "on your left" moment in Avengers Endgame, because it's been done once. (Even though they will probably try.) One only has to look at the (let me put it politely) generally moribund reception of the Force Awakens to see that the impact of "we do the Death Star for the third time, but it's even bigger this time" to see what happens when you go a repeat too far.

Hell, in my own lore, I had a sudden, unexpected and largest bloodless revolution in that most of human space without any warning consolidated into one polity, absorbing most smaller human powers and cutting the major ones off at the knees (leaving them with only a fraction of the outmost holdings), the likes of which had never been seen in the galaxy because, there was a) zero warning signs and b) it was competely succesful; the general public woke up one morning and there had been a regime change, basically. (Sidenote, there are some very explict reason why the ludicrously improbable happened, but I won't elaborate here.) But it's not something that can ever be done again not even somewhere else.)

Finding an entirely new direction to take the narrative from this point in BattleTech will be, I think, exceedingly difficult and I don't envy CGL the task.

[Cannonshop]

Yes, but it won't have the same impact narratively. For one, there would be less mystery, like there was at the start of the Clan Invasion in real-time. An unknown power showing up with new technology was almost an out-of-context problem that had never happened previously in BT's history. And even if you did introduce an entirely new threat (like aliens) or one of a different colour (like my proposed LG AI)... It would still not re-create that same impact. And this is true of all of the major plot upheavals, like the Jihad and the Blackout.

(In the same way as you will never be able to re-create the "on your left" moment in Avengers Endgame, because it's been done once. (Even though they will probably try.) One only has to look at the (let me put it politely) generally moribund reception of the Force Awakens to see that the impact of "we do the Death Star for the third time, but it's even bigger this time" to see what happens when you go a repeat too far.

Hell, in my own lore, I had a sudden, unexpected and largest bloodless revolution in that most of human space without any warning consolidated into one polity, absorbing most smaller human powers and cutting the major ones off at the knees (leaving them with only a fraction of the outmost holdings), the likes of which had never been seen in the galaxy because, there was a) zero warning signs and b) it was competely succesful; the general public woke up one morning and there had been a regime change, basically. (Sidenote, there are some very explict reason why the ludicrously improbable happened, but I won't elaborate here.) But it's not something that can ever be done again not even somewhere else.)

Finding an entirely new direction to take the narrative from this point in BattleTech will be, I think, exceedingly difficult and I don't envy CGL the task.

The most jarring possibility they could take, is to put forward a policy that requires zero use of the 'Crazy or idiot' ball when dealing with conflicts.  What do I mean? I mean stop telegraphing who's supposed to lose, by making them some shade of batshit insane with followers that are multiple shades of outright too stupid to live.

When you go over every major storyline or plotline in the game's history, you can always tell who's teh designated loser, because they're going to be some form of either batshit insane, or (and), brain-damaged levels of stupidity.

Max Liao
Leo Showers
Katie Steiner-Davion
The Master
Malvina

and so on.  Always with the bond-villain levels of Krazy/Kooky and/or stupid.  Like the character is rolled out from day one with "Hey Kids, This one's going to do a lot of damage and lose to the superfriends/chosen one!!"

so, how about working out an adversary that is neither insane, nor stupid?  Esp. a major adversary, not some skirmish-level 'He's sane because we're going to use him to edgy the teamup against the real baddies' but actually competent, intelligent, even respectable...but still gonna eventually lose-but you don't know if they will, because they don't have the stupid/crazy marker on them.

it would be a definite change from what we've mostly seen.

[Aotrs Commander]

The most jarring possibility they could take, is to put forward a policy that requires zero use of the 'Crazy or idiot' ball when dealing with conflicts.  What do I mean? I mean stop telegraphing who's supposed to lose, by making them some shade of batshit insane with followers that are multiple shades of outright too stupid to live.

When you go over every major storyline or plotline in the game's history, you can always tell who's teh designated loser, because they're going to be some form of either batshit insane, or (and), brain-damaged levels of stupidity.

Max Liao
Leo Showers
Katie Steiner-Davion
The Master
Malvina

and so on.  Always with the bond-villain levels of Krazy/Kooky and/or stupid.  Like the character is rolled out from day one with "Hey Kids, This one's going to do a lot of damage and lose to the superfriends/chosen one!!"

so, how about working out an adversary that is neither insane, nor stupid?  Esp. a major adversary, not some skirmish-level 'He's sane because we're going to use him to edgy the teamup against the real baddies' but actually competent, intelligent, even respectable...but still gonna eventually lose-but you don't know if they will, because they don't have the stupid/crazy marker on them.

it would be a definite change from what we've mostly seen.

Everyone can use a Thrawn, after all.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

They wouldn't even need to be Thrawn.  Just not being Snidley Whiplash would be enough.

[Red Pins]

They wouldn't even need to be Thrawn.  Just not being Snidley Whiplash would be enough.

Well, something like Aldo Lestrade might be an excellent option.  Less of an 'Immortal Warrior' vibe and slightly more despicable, like he was crossed with Candace Allard-Liao.   

[phoenixalpha]

Maybe someone who isnt mad/bad/incompetent would get the job done. Competent, intelligent & scheming but with maybe a different outlook. Someone who thinks everyone should have a safe, decent life with choices that isnt at the whim of capricious house lords & clans and mad maniacs but only under his guidance. Someone that actually cares for people (as a whole). People would flock to that banner overthrowing their current situation. I know... its not Peacetech... its Battltech and with every book, novel and movie these days we've always got to have a climax, a punchup, a gunfight... but real life doesnt always work that way.

[Cannonshop]

Maybe someone who isnt mad/bad/incompetent would get the job done. Competent, intelligent & scheming but with maybe a different outlook. Someone who thinks everyone should have a safe, decent life with choices that isnt at the whim of capricious house lords & clans and mad maniacs but only under his guidance. Someone that actually cares for people (as a whole). People would flock to that banner overthrowing their current situation. I know... its not Peacetech... its Battltech and with every book, novel and movie these days we've always got to have a climax, a punchup, a gunfight... but real life doesnt always work that way.

let's simplify it.

Not Mad.
Not Evil.
Not Incompetent.

Not in favor of yet-another-Star League, because the last two tries were a thinly disguised horrorshow of corruption and incompetence followed by centuries of war, followed by a thinly veiled series of corruption and incompetence mixed with power-grabs and capped by Genocides.

Someone fighting to be left alone.  The supergovernment didn't work, this new version promises to be the concentration of all the horrors of the past brought right back, and thus, worth resisting and fighting against.

Someone who isn't insane, but DOES see the cycle repeating, and is historically aware enough to know that what comes next will only be remembered as a 'peace' when compared with the sheer holocaust that is bound to follow when it collapses in on too many compromises and too many lies and too many suppressed massacres and behind the scenes assassinations.

Make this new 'supreme enemy of the state' a Belter, one who's decided that repeating the horrors of the last six hundred years is worth fighting against.

there, now you've got your fodder for a lot of conflicts and wars.  Why? because he' supporting anyone who says "NO".

[tassa_kay]

You guys more or less had that with Devlin Stone (for the most part), and spent the last two decades bitching about him having the audacity to exist.

[Church14]

You guys more or less had that with Devlin Stone (for the most part), and spent the last two decades bitching about him having the audacity to exist.

Yeah, I had the same thought. It’s a request for Devlin Stone and the Republic. Or at least what they were supposed to be.

[ColBosch]

I know you all aren't making specific story suggestions in General Discussion, right? The very best way to make sure that what you want to see never comes to pass because it induces actual legal liability if they do use anything like your suggestion? You're not doing that, right?

Seriously, please stop. If you want to share fanfic, do it in the appropriate area of the forums.

[phoenixalpha]

I think the main gripe about Devlin Stone was he popped up fully formed, from nowhere, to lead a coalition that was unbelievable at best dealing massive defeats to an enemy that should've beaten them to set up an empire that everyone suddenly said "yeah... cool .... have all these worlds and units and stuff", with no basis in the BTU. That wasn't the Republic at fault, or Devlin Stone. It was the way in which it was handled under different owners that rankled - not to mention the Dark Age and ClickyTech which didnt sit well with the fandom.

Have consistent characters that have some basis in reality and fans will be happy with that. Dont have someone suddenly go all mustache twirling for no good reason (ie mad/bad/dangerous to know) and dont have unreasonable plot armour.

Baddies dont need to be bad. The best baddies you can empathise with, have some understanding of how they got there and made those choices. Baddies who show up acting like a 2 dimensional Bond villain should get little traction.

[Cannonshop]

I know you all aren't making specific story suggestions in General Discussion, right? The very best way to make sure that what you want to see never comes to pass because it induces actual legal liability if they do use anything like your suggestion? You're not doing that, right?

Seriously, please stop. If you want to share fanfic, do it in the appropriate area of the forums.

If I suggest it REALLY hard, they'll NEVER make it! That's a brilliant strategy.  Now I have to actually get serious about whatever I DO say...   

[Cannonshop]

I think the main gripe about Devlin Stone was he popped up fully formed, from nowhere, to lead a coalition that was unbelievable at best dealing massive defeats to an enemy that should've beaten them to set up an empire that everyone suddenly said "yeah... cool .... have all these worlds and units and stuff", with no basis in the BTU. That wasn't the Republic at fault, or Devlin Stone. It was the way in which it was handled under different owners that rankled - not to mention the Dark Age and ClickyTech which didnt sit well with the fandom.

Have consistent characters that have some basis in reality and fans will be happy with that. Dont have someone suddenly go all mustache twirling for no good reason (ie mad/bad/dangerous to know) and dont have unreasonable plot armour.

Baddies dont need to be bad. The best baddies you can empathise with, have some understanding of how they got there and made those choices. Baddies who show up acting like a 2 dimensional Bond villain should get little traction.

THIS?  ^  what phoenixalpha said? THIS is exactly it, including the reason most of us who didn't like the Impossible Devlin Stone and his Superfriends felt the way we did. The aftermath/past-tense massaging that is the Jihad books, barely spackles over the gaps-and only if you stand back a few miles.

Basically hitting EVERY wrong note for a 'Chosen one' storyline. Including, but not limited to, the moustache-twirler Bond-Villain Badguy, leaders and whole factions playing directly against their prior history, literally impossible victories...or at least, so improbable that the vegas odds would be on the side of 'inside job'.

Unlike Tassa Kay's suggestion, this is NOT what we're asking for...or suggesting, or speculating on.

If you're going to have a 'Bond Villain' baddie (and let's face it, Battletech is chock full of them whenever there needs to be a major storyline push), at least make them interesting, clever, and not stupid or utterly batshit.

I know, 'But Batshit's easier than working out someone intelligent who actually has a ****** plan that doesn't involve suicide by nuke, weird replacement rituals that wouldn't pass a job interviewer, kinslaying insanity, suicidal policy (disarming your line units in the face of an invasion? really Katherine?), you know, a villain that makes the heroes look good because he (or she) is genuinely hard to defeat rather than having a massive, obvious, suicide-pill flaw like madness or stupidity (Malvina, Mad Max, The Master, Brett Andrews, Leo Showers or Lincoln Osis...)

The next Bigbad needs to be challenging, not because they're Reckless or Destructive, but because they're smart and effective, and completely at odds with the ambitions of the Designated Protagonist...with enough story they could BE the Protagonist in a close parallel timeline.

That means stepping out of the shadow of "we'll default to giving them mental illness, insane evil, suicidal stupidity, or an irrational blind spot"

I want a bigbad that could be the HERO if they weren't on the other side, get it?  Instead of temporarily dumbing everyone down to make them (or the Hero) look brilliant for doing the obvious things, actually invest the time and effort to write the 'evil genius' as if they were, themselves, intelligent adversaries, who do not suffer from crippling mental illnesses.  Give'm a plan that's actually smart, give them subordinates that aren't two brain cells short of a lobotomy.

Make it so when I open the Novel, or the sourcebook, I can't ascertain who's going to win in the first five pages.  Gimme DOUBT, make the tension have TENSION.  When the Heroes get their big drama moment, actually make it dramatic because they actually feel like they can LOSE.

You feel me?

[Gaiiten]

So have we had such "villians" in Battletech yet?
I think "Yes".

In my opinion Barbara Liao and Stanislov N`Buta are good examples.

Who do you think?

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

I think that both of those characters are rather obscure.

[bobthecoward]

I think the main gripe about Devlin Stone was he popped up fully formed, from nowhere, to lead a coalition that was unbelievable at best dealing massive defeats to an enemy that should've beaten them to set up an empire that everyone suddenly said "yeah... cool .... have all these worlds and units and stuff", with no basis in the BTU. That wasn't the Republic at fault, or Devlin Stone. It was the way in which it was handled under different owners

Not really different owners. Battletech is weird, and the biggest fans seem to most love the work of people reeling back the swings of the original visionary. It has real George Lucas/expanded universe energy

[Church14]

I think the main gripe about Devlin Stone was he popped up fully formed, from nowhere, to lead a coalition that was unbelievable at best dealing massive defeats to an enemy that should've beaten them to set up an empire that everyone suddenly said "yeah... cool .... have all these worlds and units and stuff", with no basis in the BTU. That wasn't the Republic at fault, or Devlin Stone. It was the way in which it was handled under different owners that rankled - not to mention the Dark Age and ClickyTech which didnt sit well with the fandom.

Have consistent characters that have some basis in reality and fans will be happy with that. Dont have someone suddenly go all mustache twirling for no good reason (ie mad/bad/dangerous to know) and dont have unreasonable plot armour.

Baddies dont need to be bad. The best baddies you can empathise with, have some understanding of how they got there and made those choices. Baddies who show up acting like a 2 dimensional Bond villain should get little traction.

What people are asking for is the Republic and Devlin Stone, but they want to see the sausage being made. Like seeing all the awful threats and manipulation Stone used to secure the new Republic instead of the sanitized history book, sourcebook level descriptions by people trying to save face that we got.

[ColBosch]

What people are asking for is the Republic and Devlin Stone, but they want to see the sausage being made. Like seeing all the awful threats and manipulation Stone used to secure the new Republic instead of the sanitized history book, sourcebook level descriptions by people trying to save face that we got.

Good news, we have Alaric Ward!

[BrianDavion]

I don't want a "big bad" I just want conflict

[Charistoph]

I think some of the best tension I've seen in the books was between Tetsuhara and Wolf on Misery.

Of course it took a cartoon villain being supported by a stubborn leader unwilling to write off said villain to set it up, but its there nonetheless.

[Cannonshop]

I don't want a "big bad" I just want conflict

Oh, we're going to get that anyway (Wargame setting, dontchewknow).  The issue I've got, is that the "Dumb/Crazy villain" trope is exhausted and overused to telegraph that someone, or some faction, or some element, is going to be eliminated.

First, they go some form of "Moral event horizon? what's that??" followed by making stupid, unforced errors and displaying some form of comic-book mental illness.