Author Topic: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC  (Read 2667 times)

JadeHellbringer

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MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« on: 06 January 2025, 11:36:50 »
PROGRAMMING NOTE: Due to power outages across the Washington D.C. area today as a result of winter weather, I'm posting a day earlier than usual while I'm still able to! Lucky you! Frozen Hellbie!

[Arnold voice] "Talk to the hand."

TRO:3055 brought us a book many players had wanted for ages- a book of all-new Mechs to use. '50 had been a joy in giving refits and new life to the classics from the old 4th Succession War days, and TRO:2750 of course was a look at what the Star League was able to call upon in its heyday (for better or for worse), but '55 gave us that long-sought new-toy catalog for the post-Clan Invasion era, a look at what both the Clans and their Inner Sphere foes were doing in the immediate wake to try to bolster themselves for the next wave of violence, whenever it may be coming. Among the more interesting aspects was a look at Clan second-line machines. We'd had a look at field refitted Inner Sphere Mechs thanks to the Twycross scenario pack (most of which were underweight and hideously flawed), but now we were seeing purpose-built Clan Mechs to serve in garrison units and the like. Many were fresh designs such as the Bane and Howler, but many others were new designs based on Inner Sphere stalwarts like the Shadow Hawk, the Warhammer, the Jenner (oddly enough). These usually came with a total rethinking of how the design was to work, and often a drop in weight thanks to Clan construction techniques. A couple beefed up a bit too, such as the Marauder, to better approach their assigned role. Perhaps none departed more from the original plan though than the venerable Phoenix Hawk, turning from a 45-ton scout hunter and harasser into a massive 80-ton beast of a... scout hunter and harasser? This is going to take some work to look through.

So first off. there's the fact that the new design shares a vague look and a name, and otherwise there's hardly any relation between the IIC and the old PXH. Supposedly- and that's all I have to go on is apocryphal third-party info- the design we know today as the Phoenix Hawk IIC was known as the 'Matador', and had no relation to the famed Inner Sphere medium Mech it now is based on. The name change reason isn't known, and the name Matador was later used for a totally different Steel Viper garrison machine of... er, 'dubious' value. So that makes sense, to an extent, in explaining why this feels so different from its parent design, but we still don't have anything explaining WHY this was done- or even if the above is really the case or not. It's one of those strange looks behind the curtain of game production that leave syou with far more questions than answers.

But, what we DO know, in-universe, is that the Steel Vipers looked at a 45 tonner and said 'hold my beer' before adding 35 tons to it. One can only assume the scientist and engineering types assigned to the project found some Goliath Scorpion necrosia to cause this- there's no shortage of things to do with a PXH-1 that would allow you to make it a far more efficient design using Clan technology- lightening it a bit, adding ER tech to the lasers, maybe more MGs, a large pulse... laser... in place of the old large... wait a minute. If this thing is the Matador renamed, could the original concept to the Phoenix Hawk (the 'original' IIC') have become the Vixen/Incubus? They look a little alike, the stats are very comparable...

I'm getting mired down here again. The Vipers wanted a mobile beast for their second line forces, and used the Phoenix Hawk as their model to create the new design, the Phoenix Hawk IIC-1. To accomplish making an 80-ton machine work like a 45-tonner though required a lot of work- and a massive engine, a 400XL in fact. This gives the behemoth a game speed of 5/8, which is of course rare among assault Mechs. The added jump jets give it a 150-meter hop, which is even rarer. It's not QUITE as fleet-footed as its 'parent' design, but it's close enough that it can operate alongside units like that comfortably, hunting enemy scouts and performing flanking attacks, the kind of work you don't exactly see Warhammers and Marauders doing much. It's quite the performance- but even with XL tech, the weight is astonishingly difficult to work with, leaving us very short in other areas. Hopefully the engineers kept that in mind and used lightweight, intelligent weapons and didn't do anything dumb like big ballistics. Then again, why would you mount those on a Mech related to the Phoenix Hawk? That's an absurd thought.

When it comes to protection, the Phoenix Hawk was never really what you'd call a brick. It wasn't big enough to mount heaps of armor, and so it tended to rely more on mobility for protection, keeping movement modifiers high and using terrain to keep it safe from harm. If the armor started taking hits, it was time to withdraw- or risk the Mech. Here... this is a very different beast. Using Ferro-Fibrous plating, Endo-Steel, and the sheer size increase to heap on extra plating, the new Mech is still fleet of foot, but can atke a hit if it needs to. That's over ten tons of plating, which is plenty to do the job- all limbs can take an AC/20 and hold (if only just), and the rear even can hold out an AC/10 hit. So while it's not nearly as tough as, say, a Warhammer IIC, it can take a few hits in the course of a fight and be okay- and still keep those high move mods to limit how much work that armor has to do. Note that, as we saw with the Ost-Mechs a few weeks ago, the arms are essentially extra armor as well- with no weapons in them and no interest for Clan pilots in brawling, they're essentially useless for combat purposes other than to keep the torso safer.

We then need to review the weapons, which as we said will likely be based on the original design- lasers, nothing silly like big ballistic weap- ARE YOU KIDDING ME? That was good necrosia. Replacing the classic large laser/two medium laser combo of old are... two Ultra AC/10s, one in each breast. Which... again, that has the double-whammy of being both inefficient on a Mech with that massive engine, and being all but unrecognizeable as a Phoenix Hawk descendant. I genuinely can't fathom this from in in-universe perspective (and lends further credence to the Matador story above out of universe!). But... here we are, twin autocannons fed by a total of six tons of ammo, so feel free to double-crank them every turn- you won't run dry any time soon in most Clan engagements. The guns are reasonably powerful, and with luck you could be landing four ten-point hits per turn, and by an Inner Sphere perspective that sounds great. But for a Clan Mech, that's not all that impressive- consider that the Warhawk is only five tons larger and lands FOUR fifteen-point hits in a salvo if you want it to. Hell, we can drop down to the Nova at 50 tons and have this kind of damage output without trouble, at the same movement rate. It's a very strange choice, and the heat efficiency is only partially mitigating the disappointment. Two machine guns (one each in the left torso and center torso) provide a little extra entertainment at knife-fighting ranges. Note that the original TRO used fracitonal accounting, and had only one MG in the head. The guns share half a ton of ammo (in the head!), and all of that ammo is protected as always by CASE.

So hey, that was weird, right? What if we try again, this time using weapons that aren't enormously heavy and inefficient? Phoenix Hawk IIC-2 is an appealing idea that leaves any old-school Archer pilot weeping in joy. The cannons go away in favor of a four-pack of LRM-20s, thanks to those lovely half-weight launchers. Now we're talking! We've turned it into a highly-mobile and reasonably tough bombardment unit! We DID lose the MGs and a bit of armor, but we're able to fire from longer ranges now (and behind cover if we so wish), so we're not all that upset about it- we now lob 80 missiles downrange a turn, and that, friends, will bruise. Each launcher has two tons of ammo for a very reasonable 12 turns of total annihilation. Don't even think about using the original if this is available to you- it's just a better Mech in every possible sense of the word, though heat can be a problem if you lean on it too hard. Never mind- hop away for a turn and cool down, then let the Katyusha-esque fun continue. This thing is a blast- like you stapled two Archers together and gave it a steady diet of methamphetamines. As much as I find the original dull, I adore the IIC-2.

I have always thought the Pixie IIC-4 looks like an old-school Voltron baddie.

As with so many machines in the 3060s, the Phoenix Hawk IIC got a revival, with new variants and a coincidental facelift that changed its looks completely, what a shock. In this case, we're told that the Project Phoenix-ized Phoenix Hawk IIC-3 is the result of the Steel Vipers trying to beef up their touman following the Jade Falcons sending them home without supper. Ejection from the Inner Sphere was humiliating for them, and to compensate for that they began to strengthen in hopes of at least beating up on other Clans to compensate, maybe even someday return... plans that eventually lead to a massive conflict within Clan space, but that's getting ahead of ourselves and beyond scope. In this situation, refitting one of the Vipers' homegrown (if odd) designs made sense, and the Diamond Sharks were contracted to start cranking them out as quickly as possible. Interestingly, we see a machine that feels a little more Phoenix Hawk-ish this time, combining the now-standard mobility of the design with a battery of energy weapons. The layout is very Ost-mech in nature, with a heavy large laser and small pulse laser in each side torso, backed by a center-mounted medium pulse laser. That's pretty reasonable, though the inaccuracy of the heavy lasers is always a bummer- but wait, a spiffy targeting computer mitigates the problem! The heat is even managed to a remarkable extent via 22 double heat sinks- a rare machine that packs twin heavy large lasers and can actually use them on the move without withering in misery. This honestly ends up being a surprisingly good Mech, back to the original PXH role of scout hunting for example, and while it didn't look like much to me when it came out, I warmed to it a few years ago and rely on them in second-line forces now.

Phoenix Hawk IIC-4, however, goes a different route, feeling like the IIC-2's logical next step. The Sharks had been contracted to build the IIC-3, and with the plans in place they made their own variant- something that I'm sure the Vipers had to know was coming. The Mech's basic layout is unchanged, but the role certainly has- we are now little more than a slender, spiky platform for the Advanced Tactical Missile System to live on. Four mighty ATM-9 systems (two in each side torso) give the Mech the ability to absolutely demolish a target at close ranges, and be reasonably effective at mid-range as well. (Let's be real here, ER ammo is fine for harassing someone as you close in, but no one is afraid of that stuff) The missile racks and engine take up the side torso spaces though, so the arms became ammunition-magazines with hands essentially. And here we get a little worried, because while the firepower is immense, the endurance is a bit lacking- seven tons (three in each arm and one in the center torso- yikes) sounds like a lot, but with four racks pulling from them it goes remarkably quick. For the Clans, a standard Trial won't last long enough to worry about that, but if you're using it in a longer operation you'll start to worry a bit about those bins- particularly if you bring multiple types of ammo to pull from. It's a great Mech, really- a bit warm if you push at it, but the muscle is worth it... for a while.

With the missile-monster idea revived, it was no surprise that the original-flavor got a facelift as well. Debuting at the end of the 3060s, just as the Inner Sphere descended into madness and hilarity, we get Phoenix Hawk IIC-5, and immediately we see the same problem crop up as the original flavor- on a Mech with a giant engine, big ballistic weapons are a bad idea. But, we had new toys to show off, so here they are. The Hyper-Assault Gauss Rifle, a name only matched in absurdity by its shortened version, the HAG (not to be confused with my ex-mother-in-law, HEYOOOO) deserves its own article sometime to explore the ins and outs of its existence, but here the shotgun-Gauss gets shoehorned into a Mech that really doesn't need it. HAG/20s aren't great, honestly- the damage is spread across a target like LRMs, but far heavier, and while the bonuses against aircraft and such are nice it's hard to really love them on this platform, at least. Still, one gets crammed into each side torso like the old model's cannons were. And where the two MGs kept us safe from infantry, four AP Gauss Rifles now get installed (in the arms, our first version to have arm-mounted weapons!), sharing one ton of ammo in the center torso. The HAGs though, they get twelve rounds each. That's... kind of like the 4, we're a bit thin for longer operations, aren't we? At least in the 4's case, the sheer wallop per salvo means that the fighting is done quickly- we can be out of ammo quickly so long as no one is alive to take advantage of that flaw, right? Well, the HAGs don't have the ATMs' stopping power, so twelve shots each doesn't really get the job done. It needs help- something else to open holes in the target to take advantage of (say, a Pixie IIC-3!), but that's a very unClanlike way of thinking. It's a tough Mech to warm to, and unless you really need a mobile AA platform- and there are better options for THAT job, even- it's worth skipping this oddball.

So for those who have been keeping up so far, we took an assault chassis, crammed it full of a too-big engine and jump jets, and made it cosplay as a medium Mech. What if we turn that idea to eleven and make it even MORE mobile, at the expense of firepower? Phoenix Hawk IIC-6 throws improved jump jets into the mix, giving us a new movement curve of 5/8/8. Our 80-ton beast jumps as far as a Spider. I mean... the author here is a pretty mobility-oriented player, preferring fast heavies and mediums as a rule, but... this is a bit much. But, while those jets and the usual engine make for a lot of weight and space, we at least used the paltry remaining space wisely. The new plasma cannon makes an appearance, with one in each arm and each with two tons of ammo. Smacking a target with a white-hot wad of styrofoam, this causes a miserable heat boost to targets that track heat, and just ruins anything else. They're also remarkably compact for their utility, so they make a great choice here. Backing them are a pair of heavy medium lasers, in the side torsos- again, as we discussed earlier, the inaccuracy is a pain, but the sheer punch is worth it. The medium is probably the best of the heavy laser family overall thanks to its size-to-power ratio, and as with the 3 we stuff a computer on board to mitigate the inaccuracy problem (also helping the plasma guns). So we move alarmingly fast, hit reasonably hard, and commit toasty war crimes wherever we go. This thing is a laugh riot- watch your heat, but make your opponent watch theirs too. Great Mech to play with if you need something outside-the-box.

No, seriously, you hear the Voltron music too, right?  Just me?

We jump then to the late years of the Wars of Reaving (and Jihad), and find that as shattered militaries attempt to rebuild on the fly- or geat up for one last push to defeat their enemies- the Sharks saw an opportunity for more sales, because that's what the Sharks do best. (Clan Diamond Shark: You Say 'War Profiteering' Like It's A Bad Thing!) The odd thing is that they looked at the Phoenix Hawk IIC concept yet again and this time... they dropped the engine? Look, that engine was too big, as we discussed before, but it also gives the Mech its personality- dropping it for a more conventional movement curve removes what makes this design unique, and I'm a little bummed by that. We kept the jump jets from the IIC-6 though, so Phoenix Hawk IIC-7 moves 4/6/6, so that's something at least. The designers then made it up to me by installing my favorite weapon on the Mech as the main guns, with twin LB-10X. Big ballistic weapons are fine if you have a smaller engine, so let's go nuts! Sitting in the usual side torso slots, these guns famously combine range, heat efficiency, power, and versatility into a handy package, and two of them is all the more fun. Each gun gets two tons of ammo (in the arms again, such a weird quirk!), and life is just great- we jump a long distance and let go with a couple of 100mm shotguns when we get there, what's not to like? Backing the guns are a pair of Streak SRM-4 systems for a little more cluster-power (both in the center torso, with the ammo in the head of all things), and a couple of ER medium lasers in the arms. It's a good Mech- odd, but effective. It just also, as I noted, doesn't feel like a Phoenix Hawk IIC anymore, and that's a bummer. But, the Sharks needed income, so they began selling this to anyone who would rub two coins together for them- even Inner Sphere forces. Remember- the drawdown after the Jihad in military forces limited the size of an army, not its spending- so if you're only going to have three units where you had ten before, but the same money available, investing in something like this makes some sense. And in this era in which combined-arms warfare took on a far greater role than ever before, guns that savage vehicles and aircraft are pretty handy to have.

Phoenix Hawk IIC-8 goes the other direction from its cousin- rather than dropping engine weight by moving slower, it drops engine weight by going for the eye-popping expense of an XXL engine. So... you know, buy this instead of an entire company of medium Mechs, your call I guess. Whatever, let's see what that does for us. We move 5/8/7 with improved jump jets again, we have twin ER PPCs and the heat sinks to fire them while running for no heat- well, we WOULD have if not for the XXL's heat added in, oops- and we get a quartet of small pulse lasers added in, plus an ECM suite. It's... man, it's hard to like this. I know I said you can spend more on individual units in the post-Jihad era, but be smart about it at least. This is an enormous expenditure to get a high-heat unit into the field, and it's just not worth it for what you get in return. If you really want twin Clan PPCs on a jumping platform, there's far better ways to make that happen- a bog-standard Thor gives you similar performance (a little less jump), the space to get the same weaponry on board and then some, and won't eat your budget up to this extent. Neat idea in the same way the Charger was- "you CAN put a 400XXL in an assault Mech, and here's why you shouldn't do it."

...and here we come to what feels almost quaint compared to the wild tech we've been seeing on the past few versions- a hybrid of the IIC-1 and -2. Phoenix Hawk IIC-9 combined one of the Ultra AC/10s from the former with two LRM-20s from the latter, gives all three weapons a two-ton ammo bin each, then adds the two MGs from the IIC-1 back on with half a ton of ammo, and... that's it. No weird jump jets, no crazy targeting system or heat sinks that shoot lasers or any of that stuff, just... a rugged, old-school Mech. I'm baffled by it, honestly- it isn't a great Mech in any sense, and in the post-Jihad eras it looks positively dinosaur-esque. I don't know what the target audience is for this, and I wish I had more info on it so I could figure out what the idea was here. As it is, if you need a Phoenix Hawk IIC, you're better off going with the 1 or 2 and being a bit more focused than on this almost Shadow Hawk-ish multi-role machine.

When I say 'we finish with the weirdest of the lot', I want you to take a moment and consider some of what we've talked about here today. THEN I want you to come back and read up on the Phoenix Hawk IIC-10. That way you'll know that this is no idle boast- this is one of the weirdest Mechs I've seen from the Clans, ever. And yet, it also feels a little familiar in a way. The long-range weaponry consists of paired ER large lasers, one in the center torso and the other in the head, a setup familiar to fans of the old Blood Spirit stalwart, the Blood Kite. Three ER medium lasers get installed in each side torso. This is a bracket machine if there ever was one- the sixteen heat sinks will NOT handle a full alpha strike, so don't even think about it, bucko. So it's a high-heat laser boat with no crazy tech, what's the issue? That would be the hatchet in the right arm. Read that again and think about what you know about the Clans. They built a Mech with a HATCHET. I know things are different for the Clans in the IlClan era, but it's still genuinely jarring to see this. I wouldn't say it's a bad Mech by any means- be smart about how you use the weapons and you'll have a good day at the office. Honestly, outside of the right arm, it's almost bland compared to some of its cousins. But... can you imagine being part of the design team pitching this to the warrior caste? "Okay, so... how do you feel about smacking people with a stick, Star Captain? NO, not ME!!!"

Most of the recent art, I've really liked, but this one was pretty dull compared to the Reseen, or that wild VMI original.

So, there we go. A Mech with an engine too big and a basis too small has had, nevertheless, a long and impressive career through the history of the Clans. From early appearances in the aftermath of the Clan invasion as one of the original second-line Mechs through to the IlClan era, one can expect to almost always find these machines in a Clan force if you go raiding- and woe be it to the commander who ignores this odd but effective opponent. It may not bear much resemblance to the Phoenix Hawk, but in the end it's carved out its own niche- a mobile and deadly opponent in its own right, able to outmaneuver anything it can't outgun, take a few hits along the way, and deliver a knockout blow from the most unexpected angles. It's a tough Mech to really master, but once you get it figured out, some of these become world-beaters.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #1 on: 06 January 2025, 13:07:46 »
This really is one of the biggest weirdos from 3055, and that’s saying something.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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JimberWolf

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #2 on: 06 January 2025, 14:36:05 »
Great article on a weird but flavorful 'Mech!

I think the 9 was the chosen ride of the Hell's Horses' Khan during their joint venture with the Coyotes to snuff out the Smythe-Jewel Kindraa. It was fun as part of the Turning Points: Foster campaign but I agree that the 1 or 2 are generally better for being more focused. The 10 is great when you can't decide between a rapier and a cudgel.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #3 on: 06 January 2025, 14:47:19 »
Great article on a weird but flavorful 'Mech!

I think the 9 was the chosen ride of the Hell's Horses' Khan during their joint venture with the Coyotes to snuff out the Smythe-Jewel Kindraa. It was fun as part of the Turning Points: Foster campaign but I agree that the 1 or 2 are generally better for being more focused. The 10 is great when you can't decide between a rapier and a cudgel.

I knew I'd seen something like that but couldn't find the reference, so I left it out rather than pull something out of my derriere. Thank you- it was driving me insane and I was starting to think I'd invented it in my own mind out of whole cloth and caffeine deprivation.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

glitterboy2098

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #4 on: 06 January 2025, 14:50:23 »
the 9 is a victim of the "designations are supposed to be the order in which the IS encounters them" stuff, being a variant that dates to 2853, only two years after the main model, and one year after the 2 variant, but numbered along with all the post-jihad versions.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #5 on: 06 January 2025, 16:02:24 »
One thing about the 8 is that you can get virtually the same performance from the Thor II E- slightly less armor but no XL engine so it takes more more to actually kill it plus it's also more heat efficient.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #6 on: 06 January 2025, 16:59:01 »
Recognition Guide 15 does add a tiny bit more in universe context to the Phoenix Hawk IIC's creation by describing the concept at least as originally a Star League idea for a fast assault for Striker Regiments, though it isn't clear how far the interest got, and its worded ambiguously enough that we can't be sure it was the Star League or the Vipers who specifically decided on making a bigger phoenix hawk.

Since the Star League already had the Spartan and was also the institution that let the Charger come into existence, it seems like they were always fascinated with the idea of fast assaults. I have to wonder if they couldn't get jump jets to work right on the Spartan, or if they figured they just had enough money to commission an entirely different design to do the Spartan's job, only jumpier.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #7 on: 06 January 2025, 17:03:06 »
Missile-Pixie 4TW!!!

Love the OG-2 model and also the new ATM-4 version!   :evil:

They are like a bigger Griffin/Dervish model on super-steroids.

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #8 on: 06 January 2025, 17:03:53 »
Also, for context, a web archive of the blog post of Ashley Watkins discussing her contributions to TRO 3055. Her original writeup for the Matador/Phoenix Hawk IIC can be found there

https://web.archive.org/web/20231121234813/https://panther6actual.blogspot.com/2015/10/technical-read-out-3055.html
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Luciora

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #9 on: 06 January 2025, 22:27:02 »
Very cool!

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #10 on: 06 January 2025, 23:17:08 »
Something I realized with this write-up: just how many mechs the Steel Vipers got in TRO 3055.  It's quite impressive considering how little else the Clan did before its departure from the Inner Sphere.
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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #11 on: 07 January 2025, 01:03:40 »
In universe, I guessing naming your new assault mech Phoenix Hawk when the OG Phoenix Hawk is still in use would throw people off before it's more well known. 

Something I realized with this write-up: just how many mechs the Steel Vipers got in TRO 3055.  It's quite impressive considering how little else the Clan did before its departure from the Inner Sphere.

I honestly got the impression Fasa was setting the Steel Vipers for something... then the Vipers got dropped kicked out of the Inner Sphere.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #12 on: 07 January 2025, 01:49:10 »
Even before their departure, there was a period of several years where the Vipers' very existence seemed to have been forgotten.  The Falcons spent basically an entire year camping out on Coventry and the Vipers did nothing, which truly shows how little thought was given to that Clan at the time.

Anyway, this mech is still weird.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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JadeHellbringer

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #13 on: 07 January 2025, 08:12:26 »
Even before their departure, there was a period of several years where the Vipers' very existence seemed to have been forgotten.  The Falcons spent basically an entire year camping out on Coventry and the Vipers did nothing, which truly shows how little thought was given to that Clan at the time.

Anyway, this mech is still weird.

There really was kind of an 'oh, them too' feel to the Vipers' existence in the 3050s/early '60s. The Wolves and Falcons got whole novel series, the Bears had a couple of books, the Jags of course had the Twilight of the Clans series, the Cats got ink time, and even beyond that they were all busy in the universe- things were happening to keep them all busy and at the forefront of fans' attention. Wolves and Falcons fight a big war? Well, that'll be it for them for a while, I guess we can ignore them- wait, no, Vlad Ward just pulled some shenanigans, and look at the Falcons daring everyone to come remove them from Coventry! And in the midst of all of that was the Vipers kind of... not really doing a great deal other than irritating the Falcons like a pebble in a shoe, but not really doing a great deal- no massive clash with FedCom, no blitzkrieg attack to take more territory from the Falcons than they had been given by Ulric's machinations when they arrived... just kind of 'there'. It's reminiscient of the old days, when four of the Houses got attention and Marik was there too, all but forgotten.

My pet theory is that one of the reasons the Vipers were so heavily involved in the Wars of Reaving is partly to make up for that lack of attention, and partly because no one was paying attention to them (in universe or not!), so the surprise was that much greater. If I can ever get a few beers in the author for question time I'll update you, but he's proven remarkably difficult to pry info from.  :evil:

As for their pet design here, the Vipers did come up with some odd ducks in their time. This is just the oddest of the ducks, for sure. The Crossbow is an attempt to build a heavy Omni with a standard engine, in a world that had already shown off how effective a Clan XL engine could be- putting it in direct competition with legends like the Cauldron Born, the Vulture, etc.- and it does not come out looking good in-general. The Battle Cobra is pretty nifty, I'll admit, though even it gets a comparison to units like the Puma and feels kind of '...aaand?'. Kudos to the Vipers though for thinking outside the box and not coming up with the same tired old crap over and over, something that other Clans (Wolves in particular) often are guilty of.

Anyway. Morning ranting over, other than to point out one more thing. The new artwork for the Phoenix Hawk IIC, from the Rec Guide- it's near the end of the article if you need a look. I... don't like it. I miss all the crazy fins from the prior two looks- the reseen looks like someone threw the contents of my wife's knife block at a suit of medieval armor and let it all stay wherever it stuck to. I LOVE that- it had character. This one lacks that pizzazz, it's very blocky and stodgy. The choice to have multi-barrel ACs is intriguing- we don't see that often in artwork. Not 'never', of course, it has happened in the past, but it made me wonder for a bit if instead this was the IIC-5 with its HAG systems. The MGs are in the right places for the standard model rather than AP Gauss in the arms, but if not for that it threw me when I was first getting the images added into the article during final assembly.
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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #14 on: 07 January 2025, 09:32:42 »
The Phoenix Hawk IIC is pretty much what the Man O' War could have been. Considering that the P Hawk came first in-universe, it makes the Man O' War look even worse.

The 3 is the best of the bunch, but I hold out hope for an ilClan era refit that upgrades the heavies to improved.

The 10 is a load of fun, and the 4 is an absolute beast in cities.
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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #15 on: 07 January 2025, 10:56:29 »
A Phoenix Hawk C with ultra 2s was canonized in the recent guides to give it some backhistory via RecGuide. Imagine if it was supposed to be a Battlemaster IIC instead, as i believe the art was from the Japanese version.

17thRecon

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #16 on: 07 January 2025, 11:20:06 »
I was never a big fan of any of the 3055 colored art (clan second line mechs), and the Phoenix Hawk IIC was my least favorite. Never could see anywhere that the cannons would be, and it looked like the Transformers’ newest Star Scream.
The Project Phoenix art was a tad better, and starts to give off the vibe later seem in Clan Jade Falcon mechs from Dark Age and beyond.
The new Recognition Guide art gets it right to me: simple, no frills, fast with two cannons.

As to specific variants, I like the 1 and 2, and the rest are just “meh” to me. I just really like the simplicity of these two variants. The 2 kind of resembles or maybe was the inspiration for the Ha Otoko (which needs a new plastic mini now that I think about it).

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #17 on: 07 January 2025, 11:30:26 »
Multi-barrel autocannons are semi-popular for ultras, especially ultra 10s.  You can see a lot of them in TRO 3060 art, though the practice somewhat faded after rotary autocannons were introduced.
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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #18 on: 07 January 2025, 12:46:21 »
Honestly I love the new RecGuide art; it looks exactly like what I imagined to be, a melding of the VMI piece, the reseen, and how an 80 tonner that is as fast as a medium actually would. I do wish it had a little more done to evoke that "is that a LAM?" question, but as-is I feel it's great. Scotty's writeup on it for his series also points to which ones to really use.

As for the Vipers... well, I think that's just what happens when you try to make 20 18 separate "factions" with their own warrior cultures and attempt to make them unique. Scope creep and all that- it's also worth noting that one of their Khans, Natalie Breen, basically disappears at the end of their abjuration and never returns in canon or elsewhere, she basically goes into the ether.


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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #19 on: 07 January 2025, 16:06:24 »
Great and amusing article, Hellbie!   

Aside from the unseen artwork,  I think Reseen Artwork is bit better for the Phoenix Hawk IIC than the RG art.  It just hit right with me.
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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #20 on: 07 January 2025, 22:29:06 »
I LOVE that- it had character. This one lacks that pizzazz, it's very blocky and stodgy.



... to each their own. As a fan of the original art, I like the newer model.

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #21 on: 07 January 2025, 23:28:46 »
Thanks for the article!  Regarding the Matador thing, that came right from TRO 3055 writer Ashley Watkins.  I did a lot of research about her and her work on TRO 3055 and updated the Sarna.net article about her accordingly.  Liam's Ghost mentioned her postings too, some of which I referenced. She designed a bunch of the original Clan second-line 'mechs and the IIC 'mechs except the Jenner IIC.

I really like the new RG art.  It does a good job modernizing the 'mech into a big stompy robot while preserving the character of the original VMI art.  Although the dynamic art of VMI has a certain appeal to it, my favorite being the Jenner IIC, launched missiles and all!

Regarding the look of ultra autocannon, it makes sense for them to have multiple barrels to increase firing rate.  IRL individual barrels of a rotary gun are in different states of reload simultaneously, which increases the rate of fire.  BattleTech's "rotary" autocannon that allow up to six times standard ROF probably just have more barrels than two or three to spew bullets that fast.
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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #22 on: 08 January 2025, 00:00:13 »
... to each their own. As a fan of the original art, I like the newer model.
That older unseen model had its wings clipped. Mediocre primary configuration aside I was really hoping for a better looking mini from RP back in the day.  It ended up being one of the worst (if not the worst) IIC model.

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #23 on: 08 January 2025, 01:13:58 »
I like the new mini and was pretty happy to get it in my Mercs salvage box since I held off on a lot of the mech packs.
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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #24 on: 08 January 2025, 03:22:02 »
personally prefer the new art and mini. the original old one really didn't look like an assualt mech, and of course didn't have any guns. and while i like the Project Pheonix version with the ATMs, it still didn't have the solidness i tend to expect from an assault mech.

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #25 on: 08 January 2025, 06:46:26 »
it still didn't have the solidness i tend to expect from an assault mech.

This is another case of how arbitrary weight classes are.  The Phoenix Hawk IIC and other 80 tonners have more in common with 75 tonners. Its design makes it more of a cavalry 'mech than an assault 'mech.  The Gargoyle and Executioner are in a similar position.

I prefer to use Alpha Strike role categories to classify chassis rather than weight class, and refine that individual unit's classification based on its size.
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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #26 on: 08 January 2025, 08:30:03 »
Oh, I mean if we're talking miniatures, yeah, the original was only the hottest of garbage- very disappointing indeed. The reseen was awesome, but with all the little fins and bits it's also very difficult to transport safely. I'll reserve judgement on the current plastic- mine is primed but pretty deep in my pile-o-shame, so I haven't directly worked with it yet. But art, while the current isn't BAD, it's just bland compared to its brethren. (And no matter how you slice it, the IIC-1 just kinda sucks as a Mech.)

(SteelRaven, as an FYI, your images were enormous, so I did edit your post a bit to shrink them down. This has been Vulgar Abuse Of Administrator Power 101 with your professor, JadeHellbringer.)  :rolleyes:
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #27 on: 08 January 2025, 14:50:36 »
I did get one of the first Phoenix Hawk IIC’s minis out into the public with the Kickstarter Launch Party and I’ve been using it ever since in my games. I love the 10: it’s exactly what my Ghost Bears need/wanted. Jump around with twin ER Larges (or run), surprise the enemies with a six pack of ER Mediums and then when they get close smack them with a sixteen point hatchet. The only thing it’s missing is TSM. The BV is ‘worth it’ for the attention it grabs.

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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #28 on: 08 January 2025, 14:56:29 »
I will be honest, not sure where some of the Merc's secondline designs will end up since I have others ahead to be painted.
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Re: MotW: Phoenix Hawk IIC
« Reply #29 on: 08 January 2025, 16:37:58 »
This is another case of how arbitrary weight classes are.  The Phoenix Hawk IIC and other 80 tonners have more in common with 75 tonners. Its design makes it more of a cavalry 'mech than an assault 'mech.  The Gargoyle and Executioner are in a similar position.

I prefer to use Alpha Strike role categories to classify chassis rather than weight class, and refine that individual unit's classification based on its size.
honestly it would have felt undersized even for a heavy.. it looked more like a mis-scaled medium. too thin and gangly.