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Author Topic: Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts  (Read 1622 times)

chaos0xomega

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Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts
« on: 01 May 2022, 15:59:29 »
Howdy, I'm a newbie that got sucked in by the Clan Invasion KS and Catalysts plastics. I'm looking to supplement my already massive collection (35 lances and 23 stars worth so far, I went hard) of plastics with more variants, vehicles, and mechs, but I would like to keep these mechs and vehicles consistent with Catalysts plastics in terms of style and aesthetic styling. To that end, I'm finding it frustrating navigating the IWM product range due to the there being multiple sculpts for any given mech/vehicle, etc. and it sometimes being difficult to ascertain which of them are consistent with Catalysts scaling and styling. Some of these are obvious, the Locust LCT-1V / 1E / 1Vb Royal kit is very clearly based on the Catalyst sculpt and its very easy to tell it apart from older Locust sculpts from 10 years prior, but then you have 4 different Shadow Hawk sculpts released from 2016 to 2019 that all look very similar to Catalysts sculpt - but on close inspection of details that are still some notable differences, even with the most recent ones released post AGoAC box.

This issue becomes even more problematic in the case of newly released mechs that are based on Catalysts more recent artwork (such as those found in the IlClan Rec Guides) or are otherwise not based on mini designs that Catalyst initially produced. Is a Viking IIC (Standard) going to be consistent with a Viking IIC variant that Catalyst might release at a later date? Is it safe to assume that the new Atlas II AS7-D-H / AS7-D-H2 is scaled consistently with Catalyst existing Atlas I sculpt, and that it will continue to be scaled consistently with a potential future Catalyst-made Atlas II? The IWM Dominator looks great, but if Catalyst hypothetically releases a Dominator 2 variant in a year or two will it be styled and scaled consistently with it?

These same considerations apply to vehicles and fighters, etc. For example, are those nice relatively new Ironsides Mech Scale Fighter and Typhoon Mech Scale Fighters scaled consistently to Catalysts Shilone? Will the recently released Buffalo Hovertruck, BattleMech Recovery Vehicle, Beagle Hover Vehicle, Blizzard Hover Transport, Demon/Vedette Medium Tank, Epona Pursuit Tank, Fortune Wheeled Assault Vehicle, Flatbed Trucks, Glory Fire Support Vehicle, Heavy Hover/Transport/Wheeled APC, Kanga Medium Hovertank, Regulator/Zephyr Hovertank, Zephyros Infantry Support Vehicle, and Hawk Moth/Kestrel/Pinto VTOLs, etc. be visually consistent with Catalysts recently announced SRM/LRM Carriers, Galleons, Demolishers, Ontos, Maxim, Pegasus, Skulker, and Warrior VTOL?

That in mind, it would be helpful if you could add a category (ex: "Catalyst Scale Mechs" or "Redesign Mechs") or filter (ex: "Sculpt Type: Catalyst" or "Sculpt Type: Redesign") to help customers such as myself determine which minis are being done to the new "standards" and are safe to purchase and field alongside their collections of new plastic minis. I know I'm not the only person thats has this issue as I've discussed it with others locally and on various other forums/facebook groups, etc. (which is how I ended up here, someone suggested that I post this on this board).

BirdofPrey

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Re: Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts
« Reply #1 on: 01 May 2022, 17:37:59 »
It's unfortunately not immediately clear, but all the new sculpts are under "Sculpt Type: Classic"

chaos0xomega

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Re: Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts
« Reply #2 on: 01 May 2022, 19:07:12 »
Thanks for clarifying, I had a feeling that might be the case but I wasn't sure. Going through what shows up when I filter by Classic for Battlemechs, Vehicles, and Aerospace units (including Online Exclusives), I basically get the following list:

Atlas II AS7-D-H (Devlin)
Atlas II AS7-D-H / AS7-D-H2
Wolverine WVR-6R / WVR-6D
Catapult CPLT-C1 / K2
Catapult CPLT-C3 / C5
Commando COM-2D
Griffin GRF-1N
Locust LCT-1V / 1E / 1Vb Royal
Ostscout OTT-7J
Shadow Hawk SHD-2H
Thunderbolt TDR-5S
Shadow Hawk SHD-2K
Warhammer WHM-6R Museum Scale (obviously museum scale, so doesn't count)

Is that really it? The Sojourner C and Viking IIC that just released a few weeks ago are considered "original" - so even though they are brand new and based on Catalysts new artwork, they aren't technically sculpted to Catalyst scaling and standards? Likewise basically the majority of newly sculpted minis released over the past 2 years or so? I understand Catalyst is providing IWM with source files on the 3D sculpts in order for IWM to produce variants, but is this not a two way street? Are the files that IWM is using to sculpt these new releases not being provided back to Catalyst so that they can produce other variants and maintain consistency in design? Then again, that doesn't explain the Atlas II - Catalyst doesn't have an Atlas II, nor have they previewed one, so... a bit odd that the Atlas II is considered a Classic sculpt but something like the Viking IIC is not, unless the basis for the Atlas II being Classic is that theres a Catalyst version of the Atlas I - but theres enough differences between these two mechs that they should be considered separate sculpts, no?

I also notice that the Ostcout listed as a "classic sculpt" predates Catalysts resculpts by a couple years, and does not appear to match the Kerenskycon preview of the as yet unreleased Ostscout from this weekend in terms of several details. Is that a mistake? Likewise the Shadowhawk sculpts predate the Catalyst mini and doesn't appear to match several details of the Catalyst sculpt (but otherwise appears very close) - intentional or mistake?
« Last Edit: 01 May 2022, 19:51:58 by chaos0xomega »

Psycho

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Re: Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts
« Reply #3 on: 01 May 2022, 21:48:27 »
I think there may be some misconceptions creeping in here. While IWM is a separate entity from CGL, the work behind the scenes is essentially the same people. There's greater synergy now than there has been in probably 25+ years. What 'Classic' refers to is the current aesthetic as applied to previous generations of designs; many go back to the mid- to late-eighties. That obviously doesn't apply to designs only created within the last few years. So while the Commando will be a 'classic', the Sojourner will not. I do not think you have anything to worry about regarding recent sculpts getting replaced by CGL versions anytime in the foreseeable future; CGL knew they'd hit well with the core of that first KS given the history of the designs involved, and the existing player base would buy them in droves. That's simply not true with newer designs. Given the higher start-up costs of production in plastic versus metal, and much low potential sales volume, it's not a strong play to try to push that far. Same goes for most of the vehicle and aerospace lines; you'll notice that those vehicles previewed are solid, generic, first-generation, and widely-used in-universe. As for aerospace, that Shilone came out of the blue, and I've argued heavily to keep 'Mech-scale ASFs on the smaller side both due to the space they take up on the table, and the inherent instability of putting a large weight up on a flight stand. Been there, seen the results, let's avoid making the same mistakes again. We can also circle back to the production numbers discussion regarding the Shilone: it was added to every backer's kit. You will not see anything close to that if offered for sale. If there are designs you like, ask, and I'll do my best to find what I have around for quick measurements.

chaos0xomega

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Re: Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts
« Reply #4 on: 02 May 2022, 22:33:21 »
Well that is helpful clarification, but I think it kind of just reinforces the point that theres no easy single point to identify the sculpts that are being produced as a result of this "greater synergy". "Classic" gets you a number of minis based on the "current aesthetic" (plus a couple potentially questionable ones), but it excludes a larger number of newly sculpted minis that don't fit the definition and are thus being labeled as "Original" - but filtering by "Original" gets you a lot of sculpts that go back several decades, and there is no "Sort by Newest to Oldest" feature to help you parse through whats what in terms of recent releases vs older ones - the only thing you have to go by is going product by product and looking at the copyright date on the photos.

Point is, IWM is leaving money on the table by not making the products more readily identifiable/"accessible" to customers. Theres a large number of "low information" newcomers who have written off IWM as the "old models" and are waiting for plastic resculpts of everything. Branding a subset of their range in a manner that makes it identifiable as part of the "modern" miniatures range is a win for everyone involved.

Cache

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Re: Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts
« Reply #5 on: 02 May 2022, 22:52:17 »
...and there is no "Sort by Newest to Oldest" feature to help you parse through whats what in terms of recent releases vs older ones - the only thing you have to go by is going product by product and looking at the copyright date on the photos.
They stopped reusing old stock numbers years ago. Look for the most recent product number (20-5199 is the latest I see on their website) and work backwards. Just the 20-5000 range will cover over 10 years. Prior to that it is 20-200 through 20-499.

More info here.

Psycho

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Re: Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts
« Reply #6 on: 03 May 2022, 09:59:21 »
I hear you. It's a tough one, due to how the game universe is set up, and the real-life history involved on both sides. A new player absolutely does not come pre-loaded with that background, which makes even the helpful bits on IWM's site a bit of an awkward step for someone just coming in and wanting to find recent minis. Where other games would have things broken out by faction (something BT doesn't do a lot of), everything's in one pile here. Same with visual updates. Where others would have taken the step to re-work everything once in a while, BT's art has only gotten a couple updates, and then the minis were left up to IWM. Cap that by having a player base that can be... resistant to change, and it can be tough to navigate.

In addition to the stock numbers, using the  Technical Readout filter to select by Recognition Guide (again, awkward) will yield sculpts tied to the art in each of those. Unfortunately, they have to be checked individually to see if anything is in each one.

Colt Ward

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Re: Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts
« Reply #7 on: 04 May 2022, 21:45:27 »
Point is, IWM is leaving money on the table by not making the products more readily identifiable/"accessible" to customers. Theres a large number of "low information" newcomers who have written off IWM as the "old models" and are waiting for plastic resculpts of everything. Branding a subset of their range in a manner that makes it identifiable as part of the "modern" miniatures range is a win for everyone involved.

I would say anything TRO3145/3150 and the TRO Primitives series are the current model makers and will scale most appropriately out of the more recent stuff.  I know I was using a Orion 1-H as a stand in before the Kickstarter came out.
Colt Ward

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Crackerb0x

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Re: Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts
« Reply #8 on: 05 May 2022, 14:44:09 »
As the sculptor of the Viking IIC, I can speak into that one specifically: I got with the CGL sculpting team to make sure that the file was scaled in-line with the Classic sculpts.

Additionally, I don't think I saw anyone mention that many of the IWM freelance sculptors are/have also been part of the CGL sculpting team, so any new 3D sculpt coming from IWM should be done in-scale with newer CGL work.

carlisimo

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Re: Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts
« Reply #9 on: 11 May 2022, 03:16:24 »
I would say anything TRO3145/3150 and the TRO Primitives series are the current model makers and will scale most appropriately out of the more recent stuff.  I know I was using a Orion 1-H as a stand in before the Kickstarter came out.

I was going to mention the Orion ON1-H, BT-407 (2018) as one of the last underscaled mechs.  It's only slightly small, but I'd say it is.  For those who are new - I'm listing the year shown on the photo on IWM's website.  Note that if the photo says 2008, the mini could be from anywhere between the '80s and 2008. 

Definitely underscaled: Lu Wei Bing, 20-5121 (2017). 
Part of the properly-scaled "greater synergy"-era minis: Ostscout, 20-5140 (2017) and Emperor, 20-5177 (2019).  The transition point is somewhere around there.

speck

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Re: Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts
« Reply #10 on: 18 May 2022, 21:29:51 »
I have created two new categories to help find the Classic mechs and mechs that are from Rec Guides. You will find some mechs in both folders and also still in the main BT category folders for Mechs and Online Exclusive Mechs. There are variants in Rec Guides that CGl designed to be used with the plastic variant that was created in the Kickstarter and two box sets.

New Classic Mechs
Recognition Guide ilClan Mechs

Howdy, I'm a newbie that got sucked in by the Clan Invasion KS and Catalysts plastics. I'm looking to supplement my already massive collection (35 lances and 23 stars worth so far, I went hard) of plastics with more variants, vehicles, and mechs, but I would like to keep these mechs and vehicles consistent with Catalysts plastics in terms of style and aesthetic styling. To that end, I'm finding it frustrating navigating the IWM product range due to the there being multiple sculpts for any given mech/vehicle, etc. and it sometimes being difficult to ascertain which of them are consistent with Catalysts scaling and styling. Some of these are obvious, the Locust LCT-1V / 1E / 1Vb Royal kit is very clearly based on the Catalyst sculpt and its very easy to tell it apart from older Locust sculpts from 10 years prior, but then you have 4 different Shadow Hawk sculpts released from 2016 to 2019 that all look very similar to Catalysts sculpt - but on close inspection of details that are still some notable differences, even with the most recent ones released post AGoAC box.

This issue becomes even more problematic in the case of newly released mechs that are based on Catalysts more recent artwork (such as those found in the IlClan Rec Guides) or are otherwise not based on mini designs that Catalyst initially produced. Is a Viking IIC (Standard) going to be consistent with a Viking IIC variant that Catalyst might release at a later date? Is it safe to assume that the new Atlas II AS7-D-H / AS7-D-H2 is scaled consistently with Catalyst existing Atlas I sculpt, and that it will continue to be scaled consistently with a potential future Catalyst-made Atlas II? The IWM Dominator looks great, but if Catalyst hypothetically releases a Dominator 2 variant in a year or two will it be styled and scaled consistently with it?

I am just answering some questions that you had. The Classic Ostscout and Shadow Hawk that IWM produces were created before CGL did plastic mechs. They were produced from the art at the time and when CGL did plastic version they made some changes. That does not invalidate the versions that IWM sells.

Any of the new models that IWM has done that were modeled in CAD by CGL to create art, the IWM sculpt is based on that model. Many of the sculptors that IWM uses for CAD work also have done models for CGL.

Explanation of Sculpt Type
Original - This is used for most models that do not fall in with other sculpt type options
Resculpt - This is used for models that were resculpted, such as 20-603RE Mad Cat (Original 20-603). Some had RE added to SKU, while other received a new SKU.
Re-seen - This was used for the TRO Project Phoenix models that were new art of the old OOP Useen models.
Classic - This is used for the new models based on the new art that CGL is creating to replace the old art. Models that CGL is doing plastics of. With the exception of new mechs in Rec Guide ilClan, they are not replacing existing art, but are new. The Atlas II is a classic design since the new release is based on new art replacing the original that was in TRO 3075. An example of an exception would be Regent.

pheonixstorm

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Re: Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts
« Reply #11 on: 19 May 2022, 19:52:27 »
While on the subject, is the pulled classic Wasp the same as the KS Wasp or did the art/sculpt change after the lawsuit? I still haven't got around to building those to compare to the Wasp from the KS yet...

speck

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Re: Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts
« Reply #12 on: 19 May 2022, 22:03:19 »
While on the subject, is the pulled classic Wasp the same as the KS Wasp or did the art/sculpt change after the lawsuit? I still haven't got around to building those to compare to the Wasp from the KS yet...

I think some details did change. Can look tomorrow.

pheonixstorm

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Re: Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts
« Reply #13 on: 20 May 2022, 02:12:40 »
Thanks!

Heavyguard

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Re: Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts
« Reply #14 on: 23 May 2022, 07:38:53 »
Thanks!

The previously limited released Wasp and Valkyrie are different in the some details, especially those on the backs of the minis. The Wasp is also a bit larger when compared to the CGL one.

Luciora

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Re: Need clarification on new style/redesigned sculpts
« Reply #15 on: 23 May 2022, 13:06:26 »
I cant remember if these metal ones are the first (discontinued) release if the Wasp, but the metal is bigger and there are numerous differences with the legs and a slight difference to the head to the plastic KS one. 

 

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