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Author Topic: MegaMekLab, Primitives, and Tech Rating  (Read 659 times)

johnboyjjb

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MegaMekLab, Primitives, and Tech Rating
« on: 21 July 2022, 09:44:15 »
It's probably out there somewhere but I read all the vaguely relevant data on this site as well as all the RFEs and bugs that seemed relevant on github and couldn't find an answer.

Tech Manual (pg 122) outlines tech rating A-F and gives examples of eras and units. The implication from that table is that until the Star League Era, D is the highest tech rating available. If that is true, then MML shouldn't allow E and F rating until ~2571. I don't think it is a bug in MML since there are units like the Chi-Ha which is from 2352 and has a structure and engine rating of E, and MML would need to support these canon units.

Now, what I have been doing is buying these primitive units in the 2430s, designing factory refit kits with F ratings, and then having my unit factory refit in MekHQ. The previous assumption is that F stuff is unique like Bugattis and not unique like the Hope Diamond. And so, if my unit has the money, and if my unit has the skill (Scrounge), then I could find and install at the factory these F grade refits.

Now as a I inspect the unit catalog and reread the rules, I wonder if refitting to E is even under the intent of what I would define as a soft rule. There are a handful of units in this era and about half show up as D and the other half are E. None are C. And I wasn't able to make MML produce a C class unit. Or I could be doing this all wrong. F/C-D-C-C is typically what I build.

TLDR:
What year would it be appropriate to begin designing units and retrofit kits with E or F structure, engines, and armor?

Hammer

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Re: MegaMekLab, Primitives, and Tech Rating
« Reply #1 on: 21 July 2022, 11:24:13 »
In my opinion this is one of the more confusing aspects of the game. My comments below reflect our implementation and "take" on the rules. Specific questions about the meaning of the rules should be directed to the Rules Questions section of this forum.

TM Pg 19 - Technology Base and support Vehicles.

Code: [Select]
However, in addition to assigning and adhering to a technology base, these units also have a Technology Rating (Tech Rating) that reflects the wider range of sophistication inherent to their design. [b]The Support Vehicle’s Tech Rating is expressed as a letter code, A through F, which indicates the relative level of sophistication from lowest to highest (respectively).[/b] Unlike items of differing tech bases, a Support Vehicle may mix items of differing Tech Ratings on a component-by-component basis, but the final Tech Rating of the Support Vehicle is presumed
to be that of its most advanced component for purposes of determining availability and cost multipliers.

Nothing here prohibits or restricts E or F technologies from appearing in the 2300's. Perhaps you have a niche manufacturer that is hand making widgets that are an E or F Tech Rating. While drawing comparisons to today is not ideal it's like comparing a knock off bike to a custom manufacturer. The generic might be a B or C while the other could be an E or F in essence the niche manufacturer is using an advanced or hyper-advanced technology for that era.

Now, what I have been doing is buying these primitive units in the 2430s, designing factory refit kits with F ratings, and then having my unit factory refit in MekHQ. The previous assumption is that F stuff is unique like Bugattis and not unique like the Hope Diamond. And so, if my unit has the money, and if my unit has the skill (Scrounge), then I could find and install at the factory these F grade refits.
This is effectively what I noted above.

Now as a I inspect the unit catalog and reread the rules, I wonder if refitting to E is even under the intent of what I would define as a soft rule. There are a handful of units in this era and about half show up as D and the other half are E. None are C. And I wasn't able to make MML produce a C class unit. Or I could be doing this all wrong. F/C-D-C-C is typically what I build.

I suspect what you have here is a hyper-advanced unit (F) that is likely got one or two components that are hyper advanced. If building SV's I'd bet engines or structure. While the rest of the the stuff is pretty uncommon (C).


TLDR:
What year would it be appropriate to begin designing units and retrofit kits with E or F structure, engines, and armor?

The simple answer to this is - It's your game and however you feel you can explain it with your head canon is 100% ok.

My take is: You've got a unit with access to a small niche manufacturer producing top of the line equipment that is more expensive than the run of the mill stuff. In effect your unit has more Bugatti's than Fords. But what an interesting plot hook if that manufacturer or it's engineers become the target for something. In an RPG style campaign linked to MekHQ that's worth a few nights at the table. If its strictly a AtB/Stratcon the next mission that is a base attack is you defending those valuable techs (and stores) to prevent your custom equipment being stolen and copied.

Kinda like an event that will happen in 2455 that will change the Inner Sphere.
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johnboyjjb

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Re: MegaMekLab, Primitives, and Tech Rating
« Reply #2 on: 21 July 2022, 12:31:24 »
Thanks for the response. I wasn't entirely sure how well it would be accepted using MML and the catalog as a pseudo canon source for a rules discussion. And you responded in a few hours where over there, when combined with my MML concern, I thought it might just hang out over there for forever.

johnboyjjb

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Re: MegaMekLab, Primitives, and Tech Rating
« Reply #3 on: 22 July 2022, 15:44:56 »
Follow Up - potentially weird behavior -

Loaded the Korvin into MML. The stock Korvin has level D structure, engine, and armor. Saved As a new Korvin with level E structure, engine, and armor. Saved As a new Korvin with level F structure, engine, and armor. Made one other change. The armor has that one point rounding error so I removed that one point so I could save the E and F.

D (Stock)
BV: 509
Tonnage:50/50
Dry Cost: 694,875
Tech Rating: D/C-E-D-C
E
BV:507
Tonnage 44.5/50
Dry Cost: 672,750
Tech Rating: E/C-E-D-C
F
BV:507
Tonnage: 37.5/50
Dry Cost: 601,406
Tech Rating: F/C-E-D-C

Then I loaded up MekHQ and gave myself two Korvins. I noted that the TN to get the D was the same as the E and the F and that they were calculated as (Base) -1 (Vehicle) +3 (Assault) -2 (Availability (C)).

I then chose to refit both D (stock) Korvins, one into E and one into F. They both required new armor and new engines. The target to acquire the refit kits were both2+ and the cost of both kits is 578,600.

The E stuff is supposed to be cheaper than F and more expensive than D. Again, the kits were the same price. And new polished units were cheaper instead of more expensive.

I'm not sure if this is a bug in the rules, in MML, MekHQ, or my thinking. Or some combination of all four.

johnboyjjb

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Re: MegaMekLab, Primitives, and Tech Rating
« Reply #4 on: 24 July 2022, 09:00:02 »
So, having reread the my old Tech Manual and Strat Ops, the only time Tech Rating impacts cost is around engines and armor. And because higher tech ratings mean lighter engines, higher tech ratings are actually cheaper for engines since cost is tonnage based. Armor is paid for on a point by point basis and so F tech armor is more expensive than D tech armor. MML handles this per the rules in my books.

Tech Rating has no impact on Availability Rating as I can see. The rules imply they are loosely coupled (pg 267?) but none of the mechanic of defining an Availability Rating has to do with Tech Rating. As such, ordering Retrofit kits or replacement parts follows the Availability rating. MekHQ handles this per the rules in my book.

There may be errata out there that I missed, and my books are old enough that Availability is C-D-C not C-D-C-D.

johnboyjjb

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Re: MegaMekLab, Primitives, and Tech Rating
« Reply #5 on: 24 July 2022, 18:14:04 »
It seems reasonable that engine tech ratings need to be factored into engine costs along with weight and tonnage.

It also seems reasonable that a roll for resources should be adapted to something like this:
Availability + Technology + Personnel Modifiers + Planetary Modifiers
A=-2
B=-1
C=0
D=1
E=2
F=3

So a D Technology unit with a C Availability by an Elite Scrounge on a normal planet would look something like:
4 (Elite)+ 1 (D)+ 0 (C) + 0 (Normal) = 5
So an early Age of War unit - the Merkava VII - would take a 5 from an elite, a 6 from a veteran, a 7 from a regular, and an 8 from a green procurement agent.