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Author Topic: Mercenaries - Upscaling Your Business  (Read 3275 times)

Hellraiser

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Re: Mercenaries - Upscaling Your Business
« Reply #60 on: 10 July 2022, 21:32:34 »
So, how hard would it be to convert ASF bays to 'Mech bays? By the rules on one hand, and "realistically" on the other?

Pretty sure that per the rules ANY modification to a Dropship requires a shipyard, & per the fluff most shipyard time is booked for Military & Merchant maintenance work.

If the Dictator is an example the variant was produced on a limited factory run basis.  That was swapping 12 mechs for 18 heavy vees.

Given the above, I see no reason why the Overlord-1/2/Vee/CV/HQ would not be factory versions of the base model given what we know.

I'm not saying ad-hoc conversions can't happen, just that they should be rare, and the command model itself is supposed to be one of the most rare variants.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Failure16

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Re: Mercenaries - Upscaling Your Business
« Reply #61 on: 10 July 2022, 22:09:05 »
Well, let's just say that, if you lose the ASF bays, Unions and Overlords make great company- and battalion-level transpo assets for those of us who prefer company-headquarters sections for our mercenary outfits (and thereby leave our line-lances and -platoons to do line-lance/platoon stuff).
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

Colt Ward

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Re: Mercenaries - Upscaling Your Business
« Reply #62 on: 10 July 2022, 22:33:57 »
I'm not saying ad-hoc conversions can't happen, just that they should be rare, and the command model itself is supposed to be one of the most rare variants.

Except that is not what the fluff says (unfortunately I cannot get HMA to work) because it talks about a myriad of unofficial variants that people produced over time, and I was not suggesting it would be a official command variant, but someone's attempt to emulate it shuffling internal space.  The only times we see the internal spaces of dropships getting re-worked they are not at a shipyard- Tyrannus Rex and maybe one or two others.  What the Steel Wolves did to their Okinawa CC was also not likely at a shipyard since the reversion was not recorded and Tigress only produces a VTOL.
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Hellraiser

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Re: Mercenaries - Upscaling Your Business
« Reply #63 on: 10 July 2022, 23:44:15 »
Well, let's just say that, if you lose the ASF bays, Unions and Overlords make great company- and battalion-level transpo assets for those of us who prefer company-headquarters sections for our mercenary outfits (and thereby leave our line-lances and -platoons to do line-lance/platoon stuff).

The Union has a variant fluffed as losing the ASF for an Infantry Company.

As for Battalion HQ lances on the Overlord, I just tend to move a line/scout lance out to a Leopard in those cases or bring a line unit in on a Mule with the 2nd wave.

Personally I'd be more inclined to bring MORE fighters for my DS, not less, LOL.  But that's me.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Hellraiser

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Re: Mercenaries - Upscaling Your Business
« Reply #64 on: 10 July 2022, 23:47:54 »
myriad of unofficial variants that people produced over time,
It talks about many variants, it doesn't say that every Tom Dick & Harry ship captain is doing them.
Like I said, many variants are factory produced.

But lets look at it another way......
Given the fluff of the "Command" unit being a major asset & being able to provide a lot for the battlefield Command/Control, and, if its so easy to create from from a base model overlord, then, don't you think they wouldn't actually be noted as "Rare" & that Everyone would have them?
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Failure16

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Re: Mercenaries - Upscaling Your Business
« Reply #65 on: 10 July 2022, 23:55:04 »
Well, the original Strategic Operations (CGL, 2nd Printing, 2011) did say this on p. 189: "DropShips, JumpShips, WarShips and Space Stations can only be customized with the assistance of a functioning shipyard."

Now, the question is: how hard is it? In my head it is not very, given how things are routinely changed, modified, improved, or retrofitted in the BTU. And my mercenary outfit is going to keep operating like they have been for the last 25 years (not continuously, since I rarely play anymore, but...). But I'd be interested in knowing where to look for the official answer.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

Colt Ward

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Re: Mercenaries - Upscaling Your Business
« Reply #66 on: 10 July 2022, 23:59:33 »
It goes against BTU sense . . . which matters more, the extra lance or having a C&C center?  Especially when a commander will be out in their mech leading the charge?  This gets into the BTU conceit that regimental and army commanders lead from their cockpit while engaging in fighting.

Besides, it also covers folks who took a Union or Overlord and ripped out mech bays to put in a light vehicle lance.  Or a heavy vehicle lance to get a artillery firing platoon.

And if 1 custom refit is done a year, that means since the end of the Star League there could be over 200 custom Unions . . . and odds are more than 1 is done a year, though you offset with the numbers being attrit and sometimes the same ship getting reworked.

Failure, Hellraiser is giving you the book answer, which would be Tac or Strat Ops IIRC . . . but as I said, it goes against canon examples for minor interior changes- not I am not talking about increasing structural integrity, changing armor type, adding armor, installing totally new weapons systems or changing engines.  What we are talking about are some internal bulkheads and electronics suites.
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Daryk

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Re: Mercenaries - Upscaling Your Business
« Reply #67 on: 11 July 2022, 00:18:00 »
I think changing from one launch and recovery system to another (e.g., ASF to 'Mech bay) would certainly require a shipyard, but stuffing infantry into an existing bay would be the stacking conex boxes trick (even including the additional life support equipment).

Failure16

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Re: Mercenaries - Upscaling Your Business
« Reply #68 on: 11 July 2022, 00:42:25 »
Again, I'm not saying it's easy, CW and Daryk (but thanks for responding). Given the ability of things to be modified in the BTU I have no problem doing it and saying it's been done. But where would I find such an answer in a book?

For the record, I'm not saying the ships should retain their ASF doors to be able to drop additional 'Mechs. Simply that instead of carrying twelve BattleMechs, a suitably modified Union would then carry fourteen with its normal four doors/dropchutes. And an Overlord 42 'Mechs vice 36/6 with standard 6 doors.

On an orbital/deepspace gameboard, I'm taking a loss. In a ground campaign, well, I'm running 14x'Mech line companies (when at establishment, which my units never are, so I'm still running 11-12 'Mech companies in practice. Sigh.). So, this modification isn't all it's banged up to be, but it better suits my regimental doctrine.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

RifleMech

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Re: Mercenaries - Upscaling Your Business
« Reply #69 on: 11 July 2022, 01:04:56 »
I would think it would depend on how extensive the changes are. Sure you could stuff a mech in the bay an ASF used to be in but without substantial work getting the mech in and out would be difficult do to the height differences between the two. You would have to raise the Bay's ceiling or lower the floor, or both to accommodate the mech, and then redo the doors. That's a huge change. On the other hand, replacing the ASF Bay with two floors of C&C and quarters would be a lot easier. The former I would think would require a shipyard do to the structural changes. The latter I think a shipyard would be better but it could be done without. 

As for carrying 14 mechs in 12 bays, there is the compact mech quirk. No customization required. And there's always the cargo bay.
 

Daryk

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Re: Mercenaries - Upscaling Your Business
« Reply #70 on: 11 July 2022, 07:42:10 »
Stuffing the other two mechs in as cargo is certainly doable.  If you want them deployable on landing... that's certainly a shipyard job.

Colt Ward

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Re: Mercenaries - Upscaling Your Business
« Reply #71 on: 11 July 2022, 09:32:32 »
Stuffing the other two mechs in as cargo is certainly doable.  If you want them deployable on landing... that's certainly a shipyard job.

He is referring to the compact mech quirk, which lets you put two mechs in a cubicle and be able to use them both with little problem.  This quirk usually applies to light mechs . . . only one I can think of is the Nyx, which was pretty much why the quirk was made due to a story.  Considering the dimension differences between a Great Turtle's width & depth and the tallest mech having to be accounted for in the dimensions of a mech cubicle, the quirk w/ light mechs is not really a stretch.
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Daryk

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Re: Mercenaries - Upscaling Your Business
« Reply #72 on: 11 July 2022, 09:38:50 »
OK, certainly a shipyard job OR a design Quirk...  ;)

Hellraiser

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Re: Mercenaries - Upscaling Your Business
« Reply #73 on: 11 July 2022, 16:29:55 »
Well, the original Strategic Operations (CGL, 2nd Printing, 2011) did say this on p. 189: "DropShips, JumpShips, WarShips and Space Stations can only be customized with the assistance of a functioning shipyard."

This is what I was talking about.

There is another quote somewhere in the fluff that most shipyards are backlogged w/ orders for annual maintenance for Military & Merchant ships of the IS.

This is backed up by as far back as DS/JS the fluff stated that many DS were in constant disrepair & had bad air filtration systems & smells in them.

Which is why I say having an Overlord-HQ model is going to be RARE for your typical merc battalion.

Overlords are already the rarest of the 3 mech carriers & with the HQ variant not being available to every mech regiment.

But do whatever works for your home campaign.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo